Appraisal of 1970 17-foot with Plywood Floor

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Author Topic:   Appraisal of 1970 17-foot with Plywood Floor

djm3801 posted 07-07-2014 11:40 AM ET (US)
Looking at an older 17-foot Boston Whaler with a non-smirk hull. In the past it was own by state government who apparently had a piece of equipment mounted toward rear of boat on a piece of 3' x 3' plywood that was glued and screwed to floor. Rest of hull and transom is sound. I imagine removal of this would be a real challenge. Current owner removed screws and found it was also glued, so he replaced screws and lived with it. I can also just do what current owner did and leave it, but would not want to do that. Comments on difficulty of removing and repairing welcome. There are ways to remove the plywood layer by layer.
I know that the conventional wisdom would be to bypass this boat--my knee-jerk reaction at this time. Comments welcome. This is in the $2,000 to $3,000 range and has a 1996 motor and trailer.
Binkster posted 07-07-2014 12:20 PM ET (US)
My opinion is that if you are looking for a Whaler to restore or build into a custom find the one in the best condition possible that fits your price range. Why spend the extra time and money fixing someone else's mess, there are plenty to choose from, it's not like you are looking for a low production rare vehicle, and have to take what you can find.
rich
lloyd13 posted 07-07-2014 02:11 PM ET (US)
If the plywood is glued with MarineTex or something similar if you put too much force on it it will tear up the layer containing the non-skid.
jfortson posted 07-07-2014 02:28 PM ET (US)
If the boat is solid and the motor and trailer good, that price sounds very reasonable.
Several options: live with it or find a way to get it off. If nothing else, buy a belt sander and use 60 grit (or lower - the coarsest you can find) sand paper and take several hours to grind it off. You will grind through the non-skid pattern, but you can get matching gel coat and buy the non-skid pattern mold to restore it. Or just paint the area using the non-skid additive.
This could be a good bargaining tool to get the price lowered.
djm3801 posted 07-07-2014 03:13 PM ET (US)
I need a closer look at [the 1970 Boston Whaler 17-footer]. Current owner has had it for over 10 years. If that is the only area of concern I think it will be a go. I believe that the statement about Whalers coming on the market a lot is true, and I can just wait for a better one, but I have lost a few (Whaler's and McKee's) because my time does not allow me to run to see boats 100 miles away.
Thanks for input.
Binkster posted 07-08-2014 07:24 AM ET (US)
Trying to turn nine square-feet of probably half-inch plywood into sawdust with a belt sander is dumb. Gluing it down with MarineTex wouldn't work as it is a filler like bondo, not an adhesive. It it probably glued dowm with Liquid Nails, from a tube. That is the common adhesive used when gluing plywood to floors. It might be only perimiter glued, and if that is the case it might pop off if you drive a flat prybar under a corner and try prying it off. No matter what, even if you get the plywood off you will have to sand the glue of the nonskid, and it will become a smooth surface, and you will have to deal with that.
rich
djm3801 posted 07-08-2014 08:48 AM ET (US)
agree you cannot realistically sand that down. Better approach would be to score it with circular saw and then pop the plywood strips off with a dull chisel or small pry bar. Agree that however there was little marine technology used to glue this thing down.
Dave Sutton posted 07-08-2014 10:22 AM ET (US)
Easy to cut it off with the right tools, a power planer would make short work of it. It's probably put down with 4200 or similar (if done by anyone who knows anything about boats) or some other "stuff" if put down by a carpenter. The "stuff" will be into the nonskid and that will pose the greatest problem to restore. Getting the wood off is easy. Sanding the residual down thru the old nonskid to smooth glass and re-nonskidding it is going to be the work. More so if you want it to look original, less so if just using grit in gelcoat is OK for you.
The good news is that the floor under it is likely to be sound. At the right price I wouldn't avoid it.
Dave
.
Binkster posted 07-08-2014 12:26 PM ET (US)
You might think a power planer would make easy work of it unless you have experience using one. Chances are the plywood is all the way to the side of the cockpit or even to the corner. In that case the planer can't get to within a 1/2" or so of the edge. Maybe you have to be a carpenter or at least a woodworker to understand. Maybe the seller is the one who screwed and glued the plywood down, and he can say what he used.
rich
deepwater posted 07-08-2014 01:21 PM ET (US)
First off what do you want the deck to look like??,,Factory ?? or something you can work off of ,, There are lots of anti-skid coating on the market in a wide range of colors,,some are rolled on and some sprayed,,I did my Montauk in a battle ship gray and fish don't slide on it
17 bodega posted 07-08-2014 02:59 PM ET (US)
The plywood could be a problem... I would see how easy it would be to remove and what is underneath. The hull is probably not worth more than a grand or two if it is mint...Government owned boats are rarely mint.
Take lots of pictures and post a link.
Steve
djm3801 posted 07-08-2014 05:47 PM ET (US)
I have quite a bit of woodworking background and would want to know what is underneath. Planer is a good option. Current owner did not put it there - it was put on by state for mounting some piece of equipment. He did nto remove it when he noticed it was glued. It may be bee all that difficult to remove - he was willing to live with it - I would not be. I have no need to do a restoration to pristine condition but want it right. Thanks for suggestions here and will examine more closely if it is not already sold to someone. Thee things do not last long not matter the condition.
Regards
Djm
contender posted 07-08-2014 07:20 PM ET (US)
Sounds like it would be easier to use a circular saw and just cut around it and redo the floor, anyway you try to get the wood up is going to destroy the fiberglass flooring. Either way you try to take up the wood will have the problem of matching the nonskid deck from your problem. If you are not in a hurry to use the boat, another way would be to fill the boat with water enought to cover the wood flooring and let nature take its course. The wood will rot and you can pull it apart When you can pull the wood apart down to the last layer of plywood try having it sand blasted, soda blasted. The other way is just offer less for the boat because of the wood and you do not know what repairs are needed under the wood...sound like a project good luck....
jimh posted 07-09-2014 08:55 AM ET (US)
There are two problems with the boat being considered:
--it was previously owned and operated by a government agency
--it has a rather substantial modification from it original construction
Equipment, like a boat, which is used by many people in a shared environment where none of the people feels a sense of ownership or responsibility for preserving or maintaining the equipment, tends to be treated more harshly than the same equipment used only by an individual who feels a sense of ownership, pride, and responsibility for it. Even if all the users were gentle and kind to the equipment, the equipment tends to be used a great deal more than if only used by one individual. A government boat often has a hard life.
The boat has received a modification, which as described is not particularly attractive, and probably needs to be removed. A problem in the removal of the modification is the method by which it was installed. The plywood top deck may be fastened to the original deck with an adhesive. If the adhesive used was a particularly strong and durable adhesive, the bond between the plywood top deck and the original laminated deck may be stronger than the bond between the original deck and the inner hull foam. If that is the case, removal of the added top deck without damaging the original laminate deck may be very difficult.
The price seems attractive. If the price were $2,000 the value of the trailer and the outboard engine may be enough that the boat can be considered as having no cost at all. Any 1996 outboard engine of appropriate horsepower to run a 17-foot boat is probably worth at least $1,500. Any decent trailer for a 17-footer that is road-ready is probably worth at least $500. On that basis, the boat is free.
Plotman posted 07-09-2014 11:09 AM ET (US)
Jim's analysis is a great one.
I would mechanically try to remove the plywood and then attack the adhesive with the appropriate adhesive removal product.
I have had good luck with Marine Formula DeBond marineformula.com . I have used it both on 5200 and Liquid Nails.
This stuff http://store.marinebeam.com/unhesive-5200-remover.html also has good reviews.
jcdawg83 posted 07-09-2014 02:57 PM ET (US)
I'd find another boat to buy. Unless you love projects that will end up where you could have started by buying a different boat for fairly close to the same money.
djm3801 posted 07-09-2014 11:15 PM ET (US)
lots of great info here and yes, I think it would be available for $2000. Right now my dilemma is that - since the location is 100 miles from here - I have not had a day free to go there for a detailed look. Will advise on what I have chosen to do. But - the experience here is a great asset. I am intent on either a Boston Whaler 16/17 ft or a McKee. The advantage of whaler is the wealth of information, parts, and resale value. Not really considering any other brands.
Thanks and regards,
djm
17 bodega posted 07-10-2014 12:56 AM ET (US)
I also agree with Jim's assessment sight unseen, and would add that a government owned boat, depending on how heavy it was used, is an excellent testament to how durable the early hulls are. I see lots of the classic 13/16 footers around the harbors that see HEAVY use with little maintenance withstand unrelenting abuse, and the hulls are structurally sound and dry.
I think the planer is overkill unless you have no other choice. 3x3 is not that bad. I would back out the screws and see if the plywood comes up with a crowbar or prying device. If it doesn't come loose you know it's epoxied or glued well and you are unhappy camper. My guess is it comes up easily with the crowbar and you have minimal cosmetic repair.
look at the structure of the hull, and the number of large repairs (4-5 inches in diameter or larger) and judge it that way. Larger repairs compromise the structure.
djm3801 posted 07-10-2014 09:19 PM ET (US)
well, I learned a lot on this thread but boat was sold today. Will start the hunt again! Thanks to all who helped.
Binkster posted 07-11-2014 12:55 PM ET (US)
LOL, I hoped you learned that a hand planer is not a demolition tool, its for fine carpentry work. You will find a better Whaler no doubt.
rich
djm3801 posted 07-11-2014 06:17 PM ET (US)
Ha! Used power planers to trim down wooden doors in the house. Thanks all!

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Author	Topic: Appraisal of 1970 17-foot with Plywood Floor
djm3801	posted 07-07-2014 11:40 AM ET (US) Looking at an older 17-foot Boston Whaler with a non-smirk hull. In the past it was own by state government who apparently had a piece of equipment mounted toward rear of boat on a piece of 3' x 3' plywood that was glued and screwed to floor. Rest of hull and transom is sound. I imagine removal of this would be a real challenge. Current owner removed screws and found it was also glued, so he replaced screws and lived with it. I can also just do what current owner did and leave it, but would not want to do that. Comments on difficulty of removing and repairing welcome. There are ways to remove the plywood layer by layer. I know that the conventional wisdom would be to bypass this boat--my knee-jerk reaction at this time. Comments welcome. This is in the $2,000 to $3,000 range and has a 1996 motor and trailer.
Binkster	posted 07-07-2014 12:20 PM ET (US) My opinion is that if you are looking for a Whaler to restore or build into a custom find the one in the best condition possible that fits your price range. Why spend the extra time and money fixing someone else's mess, there are plenty to choose from, it's not like you are looking for a low production rare vehicle, and have to take what you can find. rich
lloyd13	posted 07-07-2014 02:11 PM ET (US) If the plywood is glued with MarineTex or something similar if you put too much force on it it will tear up the layer containing the non-skid.
jfortson	posted 07-07-2014 02:28 PM ET (US) If the boat is solid and the motor and trailer good, that price sounds very reasonable. Several options: live with it or find a way to get it off. If nothing else, buy a belt sander and use 60 grit (or lower - the coarsest you can find) sand paper and take several hours to grind it off. You will grind through the non-skid pattern, but you can get matching gel coat and buy the non-skid pattern mold to restore it. Or just paint the area using the non-skid additive. This could be a good bargaining tool to get the price lowered.
djm3801	posted 07-07-2014 03:13 PM ET (US) I need a closer look at [the 1970 Boston Whaler 17-footer]. Current owner has had it for over 10 years. If that is the only area of concern I think it will be a go. I believe that the statement about Whalers coming on the market a lot is true, and I can just wait for a better one, but I have lost a few (Whaler's and McKee's) because my time does not allow me to run to see boats 100 miles away. Thanks for input.
Binkster	posted 07-08-2014 07:24 AM ET (US) Trying to turn nine square-feet of probably half-inch plywood into sawdust with a belt sander is dumb. Gluing it down with MarineTex wouldn't work as it is a filler like bondo, not an adhesive. It it probably glued dowm with Liquid Nails, from a tube. That is the common adhesive used when gluing plywood to floors. It might be only perimiter glued, and if that is the case it might pop off if you drive a flat prybar under a corner and try prying it off. No matter what, even if you get the plywood off you will have to sand the glue of the nonskid, and it will become a smooth surface, and you will have to deal with that. rich
djm3801	posted 07-08-2014 08:48 AM ET (US) agree you cannot realistically sand that down. Better approach would be to score it with circular saw and then pop the plywood strips off with a dull chisel or small pry bar. Agree that however there was little marine technology used to glue this thing down.
Dave Sutton	posted 07-08-2014 10:22 AM ET (US) Easy to cut it off with the right tools, a power planer would make short work of it. It's probably put down with 4200 or similar (if done by anyone who knows anything about boats) or some other "stuff" if put down by a carpenter. The "stuff" will be into the nonskid and that will pose the greatest problem to restore. Getting the wood off is easy. Sanding the residual down thru the old nonskid to smooth glass and re-nonskidding it is going to be the work. More so if you want it to look original, less so if just using grit in gelcoat is OK for you. The good news is that the floor under it is likely to be sound. At the right price I wouldn't avoid it. Dave .
Binkster	posted 07-08-2014 12:26 PM ET (US) You might think a power planer would make easy work of it unless you have experience using one. Chances are the plywood is all the way to the side of the cockpit or even to the corner. In that case the planer can't get to within a 1/2" or so of the edge. Maybe you have to be a carpenter or at least a woodworker to understand. Maybe the seller is the one who screwed and glued the plywood down, and he can say what he used. rich
deepwater	posted 07-08-2014 01:21 PM ET (US) First off what do you want the deck to look like??,,Factory ?? or something you can work off of ,, There are lots of anti-skid coating on the market in a wide range of colors,,some are rolled on and some sprayed,,I did my Montauk in a battle ship gray and fish don't slide on it
17 bodega	posted 07-08-2014 02:59 PM ET (US) The plywood could be a problem... I would see how easy it would be to remove and what is underneath. The hull is probably not worth more than a grand or two if it is mint...Government owned boats are rarely mint. Take lots of pictures and post a link. Steve
djm3801	posted 07-08-2014 05:47 PM ET (US) I have quite a bit of woodworking background and would want to know what is underneath. Planer is a good option. Current owner did not put it there - it was put on by state for mounting some piece of equipment. He did nto remove it when he noticed it was glued. It may be bee all that difficult to remove - he was willing to live with it - I would not be. I have no need to do a restoration to pristine condition but want it right. Thanks for suggestions here and will examine more closely if it is not already sold to someone. Thee things do not last long not matter the condition. Regards Djm
contender	posted 07-08-2014 07:20 PM ET (US) Sounds like it would be easier to use a circular saw and just cut around it and redo the floor, anyway you try to get the wood up is going to destroy the fiberglass flooring. Either way you try to take up the wood will have the problem of matching the nonskid deck from your problem. If you are not in a hurry to use the boat, another way would be to fill the boat with water enought to cover the wood flooring and let nature take its course. The wood will rot and you can pull it apart When you can pull the wood apart down to the last layer of plywood try having it sand blasted, soda blasted. The other way is just offer less for the boat because of the wood and you do not know what repairs are needed under the wood...sound like a project good luck....
jimh	posted 07-09-2014 08:55 AM ET (US) There are two problems with the boat being considered: --it was previously owned and operated by a government agency --it has a rather substantial modification from it original construction Equipment, like a boat, which is used by many people in a shared environment where none of the people feels a sense of ownership or responsibility for preserving or maintaining the equipment, tends to be treated more harshly than the same equipment used only by an individual who feels a sense of ownership, pride, and responsibility for it. Even if all the users were gentle and kind to the equipment, the equipment tends to be used a great deal more than if only used by one individual. A government boat often has a hard life. The boat has received a modification, which as described is not particularly attractive, and probably needs to be removed. A problem in the removal of the modification is the method by which it was installed. The plywood top deck may be fastened to the original deck with an adhesive. If the adhesive used was a particularly strong and durable adhesive, the bond between the plywood top deck and the original laminated deck may be stronger than the bond between the original deck and the inner hull foam. If that is the case, removal of the added top deck without damaging the original laminate deck may be very difficult. The price seems attractive. If the price were $2,000 the value of the trailer and the outboard engine may be enough that the boat can be considered as having no cost at all. Any 1996 outboard engine of appropriate horsepower to run a 17-foot boat is probably worth at least $1,500. Any decent trailer for a 17-footer that is road-ready is probably worth at least $500. On that basis, the boat is free.
Plotman	posted 07-09-2014 11:09 AM ET (US) Jim's analysis is a great one. I would mechanically try to remove the plywood and then attack the adhesive with the appropriate adhesive removal product. I have had good luck with Marine Formula DeBond marineformula.com . I have used it both on 5200 and Liquid Nails. This stuff http://store.marinebeam.com/unhesive-5200-remover.html also has good reviews.
jcdawg83	posted 07-09-2014 02:57 PM ET (US) I'd find another boat to buy. Unless you love projects that will end up where you could have started by buying a different boat for fairly close to the same money.
djm3801	posted 07-09-2014 11:15 PM ET (US) lots of great info here and yes, I think it would be available for $2000. Right now my dilemma is that - since the location is 100 miles from here - I have not had a day free to go there for a detailed look. Will advise on what I have chosen to do. But - the experience here is a great asset. I am intent on either a Boston Whaler 16/17 ft or a McKee. The advantage of whaler is the wealth of information, parts, and resale value. Not really considering any other brands. Thanks and regards, djm
17 bodega	posted 07-10-2014 12:56 AM ET (US) I also agree with Jim's assessment sight unseen, and would add that a government owned boat, depending on how heavy it was used, is an excellent testament to how durable the early hulls are. I see lots of the classic 13/16 footers around the harbors that see HEAVY use with little maintenance withstand unrelenting abuse, and the hulls are structurally sound and dry. I think the planer is overkill unless you have no other choice. 3x3 is not that bad. I would back out the screws and see if the plywood comes up with a crowbar or prying device. If it doesn't come loose you know it's epoxied or glued well and you are unhappy camper. My guess is it comes up easily with the crowbar and you have minimal cosmetic repair. look at the structure of the hull, and the number of large repairs (4-5 inches in diameter or larger) and judge it that way. Larger repairs compromise the structure.
djm3801	posted 07-10-2014 09:19 PM ET (US) well, I learned a lot on this thread but boat was sold today. Will start the hunt again! Thanks to all who helped.
Binkster	posted 07-11-2014 12:55 PM ET (US) LOL, I hoped you learned that a hand planer is not a demolition tool, its for fine carpentry work. You will find a better Whaler no doubt. rich
djm3801	posted 07-11-2014 06:17 PM ET (US) Ha! Used power planers to trim down wooden doors in the house. Thanks all!