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Author Topic:   Tow Vehicle Ratings: USA vs. Them

Jeff posted 07-23-2014 05:27 PM ET (US)
Interesting article as to why America's tow ratings are much different and lower than the rest of the world.
http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/tow-me-down-1609112611
AZdave posted 07-23-2014 09:54 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the link, Jeff. It adds a bit of rigor to my concept of safe towing based on experience.
andrey320 posted 07-24-2014 07:33 PM ET (US)
Wow! That was long....
I did not read through the whole thing but it seems like the author is trying to say that if your trailer is set up properly, you can probably safely tow more than your vehicle is rated for in the US....
This was a bit contradictory - the author says at the begining of the article, "The quick and easy response would be to say that the litigious US doesn't want you towing something that big with something small or some type of small car hating conspiracy cult..."
At the end, the author says, "US tow safety prioritizes a naturally safe dynamic situation so that more people can pull at freeway speeds with less likelihood of incident. There is no doubt that using this method results in an inherently safer tow situation as it relates to vehicle dynamics."
Buckda posted 07-24-2014 08:07 PM ET (US)
Actually, one of the most important points in the article is that speed plays a major factor in towing safety. Slower speed limits in Europe, and differences in how they load the weight on their trailers play a critical factor. Additionally, many European countries require a different class of license to tow heavier loads.
My big take away from this article was the point about speed. As the weight of the trailer approaches the weight of the tow vehicle, you must slow down to continue to be safe. That means if you are driving a smaller vehicle you should be towing more slowly on the freeway.
John A Larson posted 07-24-2014 08:25 PM ET (US)
[quote]Wow! That was long....
I did not read through the whole thing but it seems like the author is trying to say that if your trailer is set up properly, you can probably safely tow more than your vehicle is rated for in the US....[/qoute]
Ha! This made me laugh. It was a 5 minute read start to finish...
I can see it now...Wow, sorry officer. I know my truck, boat and trailer are strewn across 4 lanes of traffic, but that darn owner's manual was too long to read through to find the tow rating and other import information. So I just guessed at what it would say, and figured I would probably be ok.
andrey320 posted 07-24-2014 08:32 PM ET (US)
That describes me perfectly John!
Towing a Dauntless 15 that is "possibly" heavier than my tow vehicle's rating.... The "incapable" tow vehicle is a 2007 Ford Crown Victoria that has a 1500 pound "capacity". The same car of an earlier vintage was rated to tow 5000 pounds....
SJUAE posted 07-25-2014 01:48 PM ET (US)
Shame the guy did not do a bit more research as it is simply not possible or legal in UK and most of Europe to a caravan with a small car.
The little fiesta shown has a braked towing capacity of 650kg (1300lb) and a hitch capacity of 50kg (~100lb). It could just about tow a small Harley on a trailer. The caravan also is just over a 1 tonne and can be seen with a slightly nose down stance to achieve a positive hitch load.
Although he was on the right track in so far the two most important things for safety in UK is curb weight of the car (ie no passengers or luggage) should not be exceeded and general 85-95% is recommended the second limitation is the nose weight on the hitch.
So firstly the curb weight of most small car in UK simple are not heavy enough to tow most caravans. Normally you need an estate car (station wagon) or a small 4x4 or SUV to even contemplate even a small 2 berth caravan of 2000lbs. You would be hard pushed to buy and drive off the lot if you turned up with a small car.
Also note caravans in UK/Europe are generally lightweights without checking 1.8 to 2 tonne is probably the largest most are around 1.2 tonne.
Secondly all trailers and caravans come with a loading diagram a recommended hitch load and a rating on the hitch itself that you must comply with.
This is to help people load their caravan correctly and achieve the correct hitch weight and not cheat by loading more to the rear of the caravan in an attempt to lower hitch load but stay within curb limitation
Most small UK cars simple do not have the hitch capacity to tow a caravan in accordance with the caravan spec sheets etc and the car manufactures specifications/limitations on the tow bar.
One or the other limitation will rule out most UK cars even if you got past the curb weight limitation
I had what would be considered in Europe one of the largest 4x4 a Nissan Patrol and this was only just capable legally of towing a large twin axel loaded caravan of 1700kg due to hitch limitation.
The speed limit on caravans is there to stop them using the outside lane on motorways and slowing down traffic as in UK and you can only overtake by passing on the left (Right in Europe) Even not towing you are not suppose to continuously drive in the outer most lane and the slower traffic must stay to the inner most lane. Most caravans are tested at tow speeds well above speed limits to confirm stability at recommended settings.
No one really looks at towing capacity braked or un-braked in UK as the other factors curb and hitch load are far more limiting both on car and trailer/caravan. Although to a minor degree it is an indication of the ease of towing but usually as you have to have a large car/4x4/SUV they normally have much more capable engine power.
Apart from little trailers for taking garden rubbish to the tip most trailers and all caravans are braked in the UK.
Additionally most caravan owners also use a stabilizer on the hitch to help dampen out any chance of swaying due to passing trucks as an additional safety measure any many new caravans have these fitted as standard
I worked in Houston for 2 years and was amazed what people use to tow behind there trucks on the I10 in any lane. It simply would not be allowed in the UK. It's amazed us daily what people thought they could do with a big truck/engine and large axel and un-braked capacity.

SJUAE posted 07-25-2014 01:55 PM ET (US)
Opps
Sorry think I got my left and rights mixed up, been overseas too long
I'm in Thailand at the moment and they really take towing to new extremes, apart from whole families on one little 50cc scooter my best one was a jet ski being pulled by one and that was followed by his mate on another scooter with a trailer with 12 sea canoes
Must get some pics for you when I see another classic
Regards
Steve
Phil T posted 07-25-2014 07:51 PM ET (US)
Steve -
Thailand is the poster country for creative transport.
Seen the video of the excavator self loading on to the Dino truck?
Start at 4:10 in ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLO2N1EN04M
BTW...no chains once leaving.
Yikes!
PeteB88 posted 07-28-2014 01:15 PM ET (US)
I used to pull my 13 w 4CYL, 5 Speed manual Camry - worked real nice. Preferred automatic at the ramp (stick no prob if you know how to drive). So now I have older 4 Runner to pull Outrage 17 and looking to replace the Runner. I don't need a big pick-up (cousin tells/yells at me that Cummins Dodge is only way to go) and really trying to go to two vehicles instead of three - Tow vehicle would be my driver and most of the time without a boat or trailer on back. WOuld like best possible milage.
Your thoughts?
Jefecinco posted 07-28-2014 07:06 PM ET (US)
RAV4.
PeteB88 posted 07-28-2014 07:24 PM ET (US)
RAV 4
fishgutz posted 07-28-2014 08:49 PM ET (US)
RAV4 towing capacity is only 1500 pounds. Looks like a V6 is no longer an option.
saumon posted 07-28-2014 09:05 PM ET (US)
Then a Highlander! That's what I tow my Outrage 17 with. A somewhat economical 3.5l V6 that can tow 5000lbs and carry up to 7 passengers if needed. If you have a family with childrens, it can be your daily driver too, but I sometimes miss the sporty ride of the Tacoma I had before...
Ridge Runner posted 07-29-2014 12:24 AM ET (US)
Why not get another 4Runner? It's the only mid-size SUV that is still full body on frame construction.
PeteB88 posted 07-29-2014 01:39 AM ET (US)
Probably will - going from 36 MPH to 20 best case sucks. Trying to find something in the middle if possible. I don't really tow that far but want to. My driver is a Matrix but I'm tired of that. Wife wants something else, she likes Accords, she wants a newer one and thinks I should take her 07 for driver. Not bad idea, good wife. I don't have budget for brand new + we are on serious downsizing plan which is working great as we close in on, ahhemmm gag gag, retirement. Well, I'll never retire but she can. Still interested in ideas.
jimh posted 07-29-2014 08:03 AM ET (US)
I finally got around to reading the article linked in Jeff's initial posting. I found it to be extremely interesting. The article discusses the effect of tongue weight on stability. Its postulates match my own experience exactly.
Based on weights and calculations, I found the initial set up of my boat trailer put the tongue weight over 500-lbs, which was close to 10-percent of the trailer weight. But I felt this was too much tongue weight on the truck, as the rear axle weight was very close to the maximum allowed.
The trailer total weight was 5,380-lbs, and the tongue weight was 520-lbs, or 9.7-percent. The total weight on the truck rear axle was 3,880-lbs, and the rating for the GAWR RR was 3,968-lbs. I was only 88-lbs below maximum rated rear axle weight load.
Cf.: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001476.html
I moved the boat position on the trailer to be just a few inches farther back, and reduced the tongue weight. I weighted the rig again. This time I found the total trailer weight was 5,600-lbs (we must have had more fuel or gear on the boat), and the tongue weight was 460-lbs, or 8-percent. The rear axle weight was 3,660-lbs, giving a much better margin of 308-lbs.
Cf: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/016667.html
In my towing, I seldom drive faster than 65-MPH. I have noticed that the dynamic stability of the rig becomes less stable when I drive faster. I can feel the trailer sway tendency become higher. On the rare occasion when I have hit 70-MPH, the trailer is more tender and likely to sway.
ASIDE: We just drove 560-miles towing the boat last week. About 400 of those miles were with a speed limit of 50-MPH on two lane country roads in a foreign country (Canada). It was really quite enjoyable to drive at 50-MPH through the country side. The trailer tows remarkably well at that speed, as it has no tendency to sway at all.
Re the ratio of trailer weight to truck weigh: The total weight of my rig was 11,160-lbs, and consisted of a truck weight of 5,560-lbs and a trailer weight of 5,600-lbs. The trailer outweighed the truck by 40-lbs.
Jefecinco posted 07-29-2014 09:10 AM ET (US)
How about a late model V6 powered RAV 4. Reasonable purchase price, excellent reliability, decent fuel economy, will handle the load, lower insurance and maintenance costs than many alternatives, nice driver, etc.
Butch
PeteB88 posted 07-29-2014 11:53 AM ET (US)
I'm going to check one out Butch for sure. Thanks man…
martyn1075 posted 07-29-2014 12:44 PM ET (US)
Ridge Runner if I'm not mistaken I think the Honda Ridgeline is a body on frame vehicle that has an SUV feel. The unique part is that they incorporated a small box to make light duty truck. However the vehical is not exactly that light duty and the 5000k tow rating is quite modest as many have reported towing a bit more with many healthy miles to its record. The four runner has an option for a V8 I think which would be nice for towing in that 5-7k range.
PeteB88 posted 07-29-2014 11:42 PM ET (US)
Ridge Runner on the list - 4 Runner still on top or F150 maybe. The last pickup I had was a real Dodge Power Wagon with a PTO and a Slant 6. PTO was for lift gate government cut off - oh, it was a government auction truck and badddd to the bone. That was a while ago….Dark Green
PeteB88 posted 08-03-2014 12:06 PM ET (US)
Tow Adventure - Just went with my buddy Chuck to pick up his "new" 86 Montauk from super good guy near Milwaukee. Awesome boat, another incredible "Whaler pal" experience but pick up and tow was not without challenges. We went from East of Chicago outbound through amazing traffic and bad weather (at times).
Pick up and transaction went great. Except we had to cut the plugs from vehicle and trailer, twist, cap and tape them to stay ahead of severe storms.
The point - We towed the Montauk on an older, probably original Shorelander steel trailer with a Toyota Avalon!! No freaking problem, towed like a dream, lousy weather, crappy traffic and a few times hit 70 MPH. I had infrared thermometer and shot temps of the front brake discs when we stopped for gas - Avalon w/ tow ~ 110 - 115 F. Other cars just as the pulled in and stopped in front of pump ~ 94-98 F. Not bad.
Trailer hubs ran cool the whole time, checked wet conditions and dry about he same temps - mid - 70F
I'm sure the Montauk/Avalon set up was about max for the Avalon, not sure I'd tow my Outrage 17 behind that car for any distance.
Estero posted 08-08-2014 07:45 PM ET (US)
Pete,
Look for a used RAV4 with a V6 and tow package, I had a 2008 that I pulled a 17 Montauk with; I wouldn't want to go over the Rockies with it but for general use it worked fine. 25-28 mpg when not towing.

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Author	Topic: Tow Vehicle Ratings: USA vs. Them
Jeff	posted 07-23-2014 05:27 PM ET (US) Interesting article as to why America's tow ratings are much different and lower than the rest of the world. http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/tow-me-down-1609112611
AZdave	posted 07-23-2014 09:54 PM ET (US) Thanks for the link, Jeff. It adds a bit of rigor to my concept of safe towing based on experience.
andrey320	posted 07-24-2014 07:33 PM ET (US) Wow! That was long.... I did not read through the whole thing but it seems like the author is trying to say that if your trailer is set up properly, you can probably safely tow more than your vehicle is rated for in the US.... This was a bit contradictory - the author says at the begining of the article, "The quick and easy response would be to say that the litigious US doesn't want you towing something that big with something small or some type of small car hating conspiracy cult..." At the end, the author says, "US tow safety prioritizes a naturally safe dynamic situation so that more people can pull at freeway speeds with less likelihood of incident. There is no doubt that using this method results in an inherently safer tow situation as it relates to vehicle dynamics."
Buckda	posted 07-24-2014 08:07 PM ET (US) Actually, one of the most important points in the article is that speed plays a major factor in towing safety. Slower speed limits in Europe, and differences in how they load the weight on their trailers play a critical factor. Additionally, many European countries require a different class of license to tow heavier loads. My big take away from this article was the point about speed. As the weight of the trailer approaches the weight of the tow vehicle, you must slow down to continue to be safe. That means if you are driving a smaller vehicle you should be towing more slowly on the freeway.
John A Larson	posted 07-24-2014 08:25 PM ET (US) [quote]Wow! That was long.... I did not read through the whole thing but it seems like the author is trying to say that if your trailer is set up properly, you can probably safely tow more than your vehicle is rated for in the US....[/qoute] Ha! This made me laugh. It was a 5 minute read start to finish... I can see it now...Wow, sorry officer. I know my truck, boat and trailer are strewn across 4 lanes of traffic, but that darn owner's manual was too long to read through to find the tow rating and other import information. So I just guessed at what it would say, and figured I would probably be ok.
andrey320	posted 07-24-2014 08:32 PM ET (US) That describes me perfectly John! Towing a Dauntless 15 that is "possibly" heavier than my tow vehicle's rating.... The "incapable" tow vehicle is a 2007 Ford Crown Victoria that has a 1500 pound "capacity". The same car of an earlier vintage was rated to tow 5000 pounds....
SJUAE	posted 07-25-2014 01:48 PM ET (US) Shame the guy did not do a bit more research as it is simply not possible or legal in UK and most of Europe to a caravan with a small car. The little fiesta shown has a braked towing capacity of 650kg (1300lb) and a hitch capacity of 50kg (~100lb). It could just about tow a small Harley on a trailer. The caravan also is just over a 1 tonne and can be seen with a slightly nose down stance to achieve a positive hitch load. Although he was on the right track in so far the two most important things for safety in UK is curb weight of the car (ie no passengers or luggage) should not be exceeded and general 85-95% is recommended the second limitation is the nose weight on the hitch. So firstly the curb weight of most small car in UK simple are not heavy enough to tow most caravans. Normally you need an estate car (station wagon) or a small 4x4 or SUV to even contemplate even a small 2 berth caravan of 2000lbs. You would be hard pushed to buy and drive off the lot if you turned up with a small car. Also note caravans in UK/Europe are generally lightweights without checking 1.8 to 2 tonne is probably the largest most are around 1.2 tonne. Secondly all trailers and caravans come with a loading diagram a recommended hitch load and a rating on the hitch itself that you must comply with. This is to help people load their caravan correctly and achieve the correct hitch weight and not cheat by loading more to the rear of the caravan in an attempt to lower hitch load but stay within curb limitation Most small UK cars simple do not have the hitch capacity to tow a caravan in accordance with the caravan spec sheets etc and the car manufactures specifications/limitations on the tow bar. One or the other limitation will rule out most UK cars even if you got past the curb weight limitation I had what would be considered in Europe one of the largest 4x4 a Nissan Patrol and this was only just capable legally of towing a large twin axel loaded caravan of 1700kg due to hitch limitation. The speed limit on caravans is there to stop them using the outside lane on motorways and slowing down traffic as in UK and you can only overtake by passing on the left (Right in Europe) Even not towing you are not suppose to continuously drive in the outer most lane and the slower traffic must stay to the inner most lane. Most caravans are tested at tow speeds well above speed limits to confirm stability at recommended settings. No one really looks at towing capacity braked or un-braked in UK as the other factors curb and hitch load are far more limiting both on car and trailer/caravan. Although to a minor degree it is an indication of the ease of towing but usually as you have to have a large car/4x4/SUV they normally have much more capable engine power. Apart from little trailers for taking garden rubbish to the tip most trailers and all caravans are braked in the UK. Additionally most caravan owners also use a stabilizer on the hitch to help dampen out any chance of swaying due to passing trucks as an additional safety measure any many new caravans have these fitted as standard I worked in Houston for 2 years and was amazed what people use to tow behind there trucks on the I10 in any lane. It simply would not be allowed in the UK. It's amazed us daily what people thought they could do with a big truck/engine and large axel and un-braked capacity.
SJUAE	posted 07-25-2014 01:55 PM ET (US) Opps Sorry think I got my left and rights mixed up, been overseas too long I'm in Thailand at the moment and they really take towing to new extremes, apart from whole families on one little 50cc scooter my best one was a jet ski being pulled by one and that was followed by his mate on another scooter with a trailer with 12 sea canoes Must get some pics for you when I see another classic Regards Steve
Phil T	posted 07-25-2014 07:51 PM ET (US) Steve - Thailand is the poster country for creative transport. Seen the video of the excavator self loading on to the Dino truck? Start at 4:10 in ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLO2N1EN04M BTW...no chains once leaving. Yikes!
PeteB88	posted 07-28-2014 01:15 PM ET (US) I used to pull my 13 w 4CYL, 5 Speed manual Camry - worked real nice. Preferred automatic at the ramp (stick no prob if you know how to drive). So now I have older 4 Runner to pull Outrage 17 and looking to replace the Runner. I don't need a big pick-up (cousin tells/yells at me that Cummins Dodge is only way to go) and really trying to go to two vehicles instead of three - Tow vehicle would be my driver and most of the time without a boat or trailer on back. WOuld like best possible milage. Your thoughts?
Jefecinco	posted 07-28-2014 07:06 PM ET (US) RAV4.
PeteB88	posted 07-28-2014 07:24 PM ET (US) RAV 4
fishgutz	posted 07-28-2014 08:49 PM ET (US) RAV4 towing capacity is only 1500 pounds. Looks like a V6 is no longer an option.
saumon	posted 07-28-2014 09:05 PM ET (US) Then a Highlander! That's what I tow my Outrage 17 with. A somewhat economical 3.5l V6 that can tow 5000lbs and carry up to 7 passengers if needed. If you have a family with childrens, it can be your daily driver too, but I sometimes miss the sporty ride of the Tacoma I had before...
Ridge Runner	posted 07-29-2014 12:24 AM ET (US) Why not get another 4Runner? It's the only mid-size SUV that is still full body on frame construction.
PeteB88	posted 07-29-2014 01:39 AM ET (US) Probably will - going from 36 MPH to 20 best case sucks. Trying to find something in the middle if possible. I don't really tow that far but want to. My driver is a Matrix but I'm tired of that. Wife wants something else, she likes Accords, she wants a newer one and thinks I should take her 07 for driver. Not bad idea, good wife. I don't have budget for brand new + we are on serious downsizing plan which is working great as we close in on, ahhemmm gag gag, retirement. Well, I'll never retire but she can. Still interested in ideas.
jimh	posted 07-29-2014 08:03 AM ET (US) I finally got around to reading the article linked in Jeff's initial posting. I found it to be extremely interesting. The article discusses the effect of tongue weight on stability. Its postulates match my own experience exactly. Based on weights and calculations, I found the initial set up of my boat trailer put the tongue weight over 500-lbs, which was close to 10-percent of the trailer weight. But I felt this was too much tongue weight on the truck, as the rear axle weight was very close to the maximum allowed. The trailer total weight was 5,380-lbs, and the tongue weight was 520-lbs, or 9.7-percent. The total weight on the truck rear axle was 3,880-lbs, and the rating for the GAWR RR was 3,968-lbs. I was only 88-lbs below maximum rated rear axle weight load. Cf.: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001476.html I moved the boat position on the trailer to be just a few inches farther back, and reduced the tongue weight. I weighted the rig again. This time I found the total trailer weight was 5,600-lbs (we must have had more fuel or gear on the boat), and the tongue weight was 460-lbs, or 8-percent. The rear axle weight was 3,660-lbs, giving a much better margin of 308-lbs. Cf: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/016667.html In my towing, I seldom drive faster than 65-MPH. I have noticed that the dynamic stability of the rig becomes less stable when I drive faster. I can feel the trailer sway tendency become higher. On the rare occasion when I have hit 70-MPH, the trailer is more tender and likely to sway. ASIDE: We just drove 560-miles towing the boat last week. About 400 of those miles were with a speed limit of 50-MPH on two lane country roads in a foreign country (Canada). It was really quite enjoyable to drive at 50-MPH through the country side. The trailer tows remarkably well at that speed, as it has no tendency to sway at all. Re the ratio of trailer weight to truck weigh: The total weight of my rig was 11,160-lbs, and consisted of a truck weight of 5,560-lbs and a trailer weight of 5,600-lbs. The trailer outweighed the truck by 40-lbs.
Jefecinco	posted 07-29-2014 09:10 AM ET (US) How about a late model V6 powered RAV 4. Reasonable purchase price, excellent reliability, decent fuel economy, will handle the load, lower insurance and maintenance costs than many alternatives, nice driver, etc. Butch
PeteB88	posted 07-29-2014 11:53 AM ET (US) I'm going to check one out Butch for sure. Thanks man…
martyn1075	posted 07-29-2014 12:44 PM ET (US) Ridge Runner if I'm not mistaken I think the Honda Ridgeline is a body on frame vehicle that has an SUV feel. The unique part is that they incorporated a small box to make light duty truck. However the vehical is not exactly that light duty and the 5000k tow rating is quite modest as many have reported towing a bit more with many healthy miles to its record. The four runner has an option for a V8 I think which would be nice for towing in that 5-7k range.
PeteB88	posted 07-29-2014 11:42 PM ET (US) Ridge Runner on the list - 4 Runner still on top or F150 maybe. The last pickup I had was a real Dodge Power Wagon with a PTO and a Slant 6. PTO was for lift gate government cut off - oh, it was a government auction truck and badddd to the bone. That was a while ago….Dark Green
PeteB88	posted 08-03-2014 12:06 PM ET (US) Tow Adventure - Just went with my buddy Chuck to pick up his "new" 86 Montauk from super good guy near Milwaukee. Awesome boat, another incredible "Whaler pal" experience but pick up and tow was not without challenges. We went from East of Chicago outbound through amazing traffic and bad weather (at times). Pick up and transaction went great. Except we had to cut the plugs from vehicle and trailer, twist, cap and tape them to stay ahead of severe storms. The point - We towed the Montauk on an older, probably original Shorelander steel trailer with a Toyota Avalon!! No freaking problem, towed like a dream, lousy weather, crappy traffic and a few times hit 70 MPH. I had infrared thermometer and shot temps of the front brake discs when we stopped for gas - Avalon w/ tow ~ 110 - 115 F. Other cars just as the pulled in and stopped in front of pump ~ 94-98 F. Not bad. Trailer hubs ran cool the whole time, checked wet conditions and dry about he same temps - mid - 70F I'm sure the Montauk/Avalon set up was about max for the Avalon, not sure I'd tow my Outrage 17 behind that car for any distance.
Estero	posted 08-08-2014 07:45 PM ET (US) Pete, Look for a used RAV4 with a V6 and tow package, I had a 2008 that I pulled a 17 Montauk with; I wouldn't want to go over the Rockies with it but for general use it worked fine. 25-28 mpg when not towing.