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Author Topic:   SUZUKI DF200A

jimh posted 08-03-2014 12:22 AM ET (US)
I guess in all the recent hoopla about new engines, the announcement in June 2014 from SUZUKI of a new 200-HP four-stroke outboard engine with four-cylinders was overlooked. People have been speculating for more than a year that Brunswick would come out with a new 200-HP outboard engine that was based on their four-cylinder 150-HP model, but so far nothing has materialized. Instead, SUZUKI comes out with a new engine that is just what the Mercury-fanbois were trying to conjure up.
The new SUZUKI DF200A--and don't you love it when a manufacturer gives a new engine a new and distinctive model identifier so it is very simple to figure out that it is a new engine--is a four-cylinder four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engine that delivers 200-HP with 12-percent less weight than the comparable six-cylinder 200-HP engine.
Like all Suzuki four-stroke engines, it is loaded with modern, innovative, advanced technology features. Let's begin with the valve train: it employs variable valve timing (or cam phasing). Practically all high-performance four-stroke engines these days employ variable valve timing. It has become very standard, and engines without it are unusual--Yamaha, Honda, and Suzuki all employ variable valve timing in their outboard engines to enhance performance.
The DF200A also has a knock sensor, another advanced feature on modern engine. There is an O2 sensor to monitor the fuel-air mixtures. This typically means a closed-loop fuel-air control system which allows precise fuel:air ratio mixing for best fuel economy. (This is often called "lean burn.") The cowling has been redesigned to provide a direct air flow of cool air into the engine intake manifold. Of course, there are dual overhead cams and four valves per cylinder, all benchmarks of modern engine design.
The engine has a moderately high 10.3:1 compression ratio. The displacement is 175-cubic inches, or 2.87-liters. That is 69.7-HP per liter, which is fairly hot tuning. This is about the same sort of horsepower-per-liter that Suzuki gets from their 250-HP V6 at 3.6-liters.
A concern about four-stroke outboards is their weight. This 200-HP Suzuki DF200A weighs 498-lbs. To compare with an E-TEC 200 H.O. model, which is the smaller displacement 200-HP in the Evinrude line, the two-stroke engine weighs 503-lbs with its lightest gear case. This Suzuki four-stroke no longer has a weight problem. It is lighter than an E-TEC.
Fuel economy has always been a strong feature of four-stroke engines--well, at least the ones without superchargers. Suzuki says that this DF200A engine has improved fuel economy which in tests has shown as much as a 32-percent improvement over prior models at full-throttle settings. If that result obtains in the real world, it will be very impressive.
Finally, Suzuki has provided for two further innovations with the DF200A:
--it will be available with Suzuki's PRECISION DRIVE, a system of digital control for remote throttle and shift; and
--it will be available with Suzuki's SELECTIVE ROTATION, a very innovative gear case system which provides for both regular rotation and counter rotation from one gear case, the change being selected electronically.
Like (almost) all modern engines the DF200A will have NMEA-2000 support.
Suzuki does not says if the oil filler spout has a yellow cap, or if there are any two-dimension bar codes that can be scanned by smartphone to cause them to connect to a website. They did not use the words "Green" or "Eco" in any of their press material.
The June announcement is just a teaser, because the Suzuki DF200A will not be available until "early 2015."
For a little background on SUZUKI, here are a few points of interest:
Suzuki was the first outboard engine manufacturer to abandon two-cycle outboards and go to an entirely four-cycle outboard engine line. It was the first to introduce fuel-injection in four-stroke outboards. It was the first to move to an all fuel-injection line. It was the first to develop fuel injection that would run without needing an attached battery.
Suzuki was the first to introduce a 250-HP four-cycle outboard (2003), and the first to introduce a 300-HP four-cycle outboard (2006).
Suzuki turned the outboard engine warranty coverage on its head by their unprecedented and unmatched six year warranty offers.
Suzuki has been in the outboard engine manufacturing business for 50-years, although their products have not been in North American distribution for that long, and, in some areas, they are still not especially well represented. Their present market share in the USA is believed to be below ten-percent penetration.
Suzuki makes their own engines in their own plant that they don't share any sort of co-marketing or co-manufacturing or nebulous joint-venture secret deals with other outboard engine makers or brands. It's their plant, and there is no dispute about that. Suzuki has made engines for OMC/BRP's Johnson and Evinrude brands, but I believe that relationship ended several years ago.
The Suzuki main plant is in Japan, at Toyokawa, Aichi Prefecture, and a subordinate plant is in Thailand. Engines of 40-HP or more are made at Toyokawa; smaller engines are made in Thailand.
Suzuki recently celebrated the manufacture of their three-millionth outboard engine in July 2014.
onlyawhaler posted 08-03-2014 02:12 AM ET (US)
Great information Jim
A lot of firsts for Suzuki outboards you mentioned that I didn't know of.
Great innovation and Suzuki outboard owners (the few I know) seem to be very loyal to the brand
Sterling
Onlyawhaler
ericflys posted 08-03-2014 02:16 AM ET (US)
The previous version of the Suzuki 200hp outboard has a lot of loyal fans and I know several with them on Boston Whaler boats that are very happy. One can only assume that the newest version will be even better.
[Changed the topic. Please, let us stick to outboard engines. --jimh]
Peter posted 08-03-2014 06:25 AM ET (US)

quote:
A concern about four-stroke outboards is their weight. This 200-HP Suzuki DF200A weighs 498-lbs. To compare with an E-TEC 200 H.O. model, which is the smaller displacement 200-HP in the Evinrude line, the two-stroke engine weighs 503-lbs with its lightest gear case. This Suzuki four-stroke no longer has a weight problem. It is lighter than an E-TEC.
This is not correct. The Evinrude E-TEC 200 H.O. model is the larger, not smaller, displacement 200-HP model. It's built on the 3.3L block. The E-TEC 200 (not H.O.) is built on the 60 degree 2.6L block and weighs 418-lbs in its lightest version - 80 lbs lighter than the new Suzuki.
For the extra 5 lbs, the Evinrude E-TEC 200 H.O. would provide significantly more low and mid-range torque plus about 20 extra HP at WOT than the Suzuki DF200A. It's not the right motor to compare with the new Suzuki DF200A as it is in a different power segment although it weighs nearly the same as the Suzuki DF200A.
jimh posted 08-03-2014 08:29 AM ET (US)
Peter--You are right--I had the paradigm mixed up! I should have compared, as you did, the standard 200-HP E-TEC at 418-lbs with the DF200A. Big mistake on my part. I was scratching my head for a while, trying to figure out how the E-TEC got so heavy. Thanks for the correction.
Looking again, we see:
DF200A = 498-lbs
E-TEC 200 = 418-lbs
Two-stroke engine is 80-lbs lighter.
jimh posted 08-03-2014 10:14 AM ET (US)
The horsepower produced by an engine as a function of its displacement was the topic of some investigation I did last winter, and that data is summarized in a document at
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/HPperLITER.pdf
In looking at the new SUZUKI DF200A, it is making about 70-HP-per-liter of displacement. This seems to be about the upper bound for this index for four-cycle outboard engines that don't use a supercharger. Here are some comparable engines:
Yamaha 200, 2.785-liter for 71.8-HP/liter
Honda 250, 3.583-liter for 69.8-HP/liter
Yamaha 250, 3.352-liter for 74.6-HP/liter
Suzuki 300, 4.028-liter for 74.5-HP/liter
On that basis, the new DF200A seems to fall right in line with other four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engines with regard to how much power can be obtained from a particular displacement with a four-stroke-power-cycle engine without forced induction.
Yamaha has a very similar 200-HP engine based on four-cylinders and 2.785-liter displacement. Honda has a 200-HP model but it is based on their six-cylinder engine.
Images of the new Suzuki engine are hard to find. Here is a look at from an another article recently posted on a UK website:
http://motorboatsmonthly.media.ipcdigital.co.uk/9091/000004ac6/e7f3/ Suzuki-DF200A-copy.jpg
Some more background on Suzuki: outboard engines from Suzuki have generally been priced lower than other brands. This has been described by some observers with a phrase that was supposed be be derogatory, I guess: Suzuki was said to be "trying to buy market share." I always got a laugh out of this criticism of Suzuki. Senior people in competitors' organizations would come out with remarks like that, and they'd be parroted by others, as if adjusting the price of a product to be less than your competition was something dishonorable, immoral, or illegal in an open and free market. It also seemed to ignore the concept that price might be something of a consideration for most boaters buying outboard engines. (Speaking only for myself, I can affirm that price is an important consideration for purchasing outboard engines.)
This same sort of nonsensical criticism of Suzuki also occurred when they put out their six-year warranty. Others tried to dismiss this as a "marketing gimmick." If it was a gimmick, it had an astonishing effect: every other brand of outboard engine had to improve their warranty coverage. One rather well-know brand had only a one-year warranty on their engines when Suzuki came out with a six-year warranty. Today, no manufacturer could put out an outboard engine with a one-year warranty. You can thank Suzuki for that.

Hoosier posted 08-03-2014 10:50 AM ET (US)
I had this engine's smaller sibling, the DF-175, on my 21 Walkaround. It was a sweet engine. Suzuki led the pack in pushing how far you could go with a big block four cylinder outboard.
jimh posted 08-03-2014 01:04 PM ET (US)
The DF175 has the same displacement as the DF200A. That puts it at 61-HP/liter. I don't know if the DF175 was offered or will be offered with the option of digital electronic remote throttle and shift, as the DF200A will be. Also, not sure about the gear case; probably not the electronic regular/counter rotation gear case.
Here's another good article on the SUZUKI:
http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/features/tech/suzuki/ suzukis-goal-10-percent-share/
In the article, Suzuki Marine America president Takuya Sato is quoted:
"Our goal is continued innovation and 10 percent market share by 2017."
I assume he means North American market share. The article also puts some numbers to that market. It says total outboard unit sales in 2013 were 150,000. Suzuki sold 12,500; that is an 8.3-percent share.
Hoosier posted 08-03-2014 02:02 PM ET (US)
Interesting, so does the DF-150: 2867 cc. Another example of using the same mechanical parts to make several "different" engines.
elvis posted 08-03-2014 08:54 PM ET (US)
How much does a Suzuki 200 cost compared to [E-TEC]?
jimh posted 08-03-2014 09:38 PM ET (US)
I doubt there is an answer. First, no one knows how much outboard engines cost. They are like seats on a plane. They are never sold twice at the same price. Second, the SUZUKI DF200A--you should use the model number if you want to talk about it--won't be available for six months or more, and you'll have to wait until then to find out what it will sell for. The best way to compare them is to find one dealer who sells both, and get a quote from that dealer. If you get quotes from two dealers, make sure they are exactly the same in terms of what you are buying. This is very hard, because usually no two deals are the same. There are so many elements to consider. But let us know what find out in "early 2015" about the price, when you make your inquiries.
Marko888 posted 08-07-2014 12:31 PM ET (US)
http://www.globalsuzuki.com/globalnews/2014/0604.html

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Author	Topic: SUZUKI DF200A
jimh	posted 08-03-2014 12:22 AM ET (US) I guess in all the recent hoopla about new engines, the announcement in June 2014 from SUZUKI of a new 200-HP four-stroke outboard engine with four-cylinders was overlooked. People have been speculating for more than a year that Brunswick would come out with a new 200-HP outboard engine that was based on their four-cylinder 150-HP model, but so far nothing has materialized. Instead, SUZUKI comes out with a new engine that is just what the Mercury-fanbois were trying to conjure up. The new SUZUKI DF200A--and don't you love it when a manufacturer gives a new engine a new and distinctive model identifier so it is very simple to figure out that it is a new engine--is a four-cylinder four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engine that delivers 200-HP with 12-percent less weight than the comparable six-cylinder 200-HP engine. Like all Suzuki four-stroke engines, it is loaded with modern, innovative, advanced technology features. Let's begin with the valve train: it employs variable valve timing (or cam phasing). Practically all high-performance four-stroke engines these days employ variable valve timing. It has become very standard, and engines without it are unusual--Yamaha, Honda, and Suzuki all employ variable valve timing in their outboard engines to enhance performance. The DF200A also has a knock sensor, another advanced feature on modern engine. There is an O2 sensor to monitor the fuel-air mixtures. This typically means a closed-loop fuel-air control system which allows precise fuel:air ratio mixing for best fuel economy. (This is often called "lean burn.") The cowling has been redesigned to provide a direct air flow of cool air into the engine intake manifold. Of course, there are dual overhead cams and four valves per cylinder, all benchmarks of modern engine design. The engine has a moderately high 10.3:1 compression ratio. The displacement is 175-cubic inches, or 2.87-liters. That is 69.7-HP per liter, which is fairly hot tuning. This is about the same sort of horsepower-per-liter that Suzuki gets from their 250-HP V6 at 3.6-liters. A concern about four-stroke outboards is their weight. This 200-HP Suzuki DF200A weighs 498-lbs. To compare with an E-TEC 200 H.O. model, which is the smaller displacement 200-HP in the Evinrude line, the two-stroke engine weighs 503-lbs with its lightest gear case. This Suzuki four-stroke no longer has a weight problem. It is lighter than an E-TEC. Fuel economy has always been a strong feature of four-stroke engines--well, at least the ones without superchargers. Suzuki says that this DF200A engine has improved fuel economy which in tests has shown as much as a 32-percent improvement over prior models at full-throttle settings. If that result obtains in the real world, it will be very impressive. Finally, Suzuki has provided for two further innovations with the DF200A: --it will be available with Suzuki's PRECISION DRIVE, a system of digital control for remote throttle and shift; and --it will be available with Suzuki's SELECTIVE ROTATION, a very innovative gear case system which provides for both regular rotation and counter rotation from one gear case, the change being selected electronically. Like (almost) all modern engines the DF200A will have NMEA-2000 support. Suzuki does not says if the oil filler spout has a yellow cap, or if there are any two-dimension bar codes that can be scanned by smartphone to cause them to connect to a website. They did not use the words "Green" or "Eco" in any of their press material. The June announcement is just a teaser, because the Suzuki DF200A will not be available until "early 2015." For a little background on SUZUKI, here are a few points of interest: Suzuki was the first outboard engine manufacturer to abandon two-cycle outboards and go to an entirely four-cycle outboard engine line. It was the first to introduce fuel-injection in four-stroke outboards. It was the first to move to an all fuel-injection line. It was the first to develop fuel injection that would run without needing an attached battery. Suzuki was the first to introduce a 250-HP four-cycle outboard (2003), and the first to introduce a 300-HP four-cycle outboard (2006). Suzuki turned the outboard engine warranty coverage on its head by their unprecedented and unmatched six year warranty offers. Suzuki has been in the outboard engine manufacturing business for 50-years, although their products have not been in North American distribution for that long, and, in some areas, they are still not especially well represented. Their present market share in the USA is believed to be below ten-percent penetration. Suzuki makes their own engines in their own plant that they don't share any sort of co-marketing or co-manufacturing or nebulous joint-venture secret deals with other outboard engine makers or brands. It's their plant, and there is no dispute about that. Suzuki has made engines for OMC/BRP's Johnson and Evinrude brands, but I believe that relationship ended several years ago. The Suzuki main plant is in Japan, at Toyokawa, Aichi Prefecture, and a subordinate plant is in Thailand. Engines of 40-HP or more are made at Toyokawa; smaller engines are made in Thailand. Suzuki recently celebrated the manufacture of their three-millionth outboard engine in July 2014.
onlyawhaler	posted 08-03-2014 02:12 AM ET (US) Great information Jim A lot of firsts for Suzuki outboards you mentioned that I didn't know of. Great innovation and Suzuki outboard owners (the few I know) seem to be very loyal to the brand Sterling Onlyawhaler
ericflys	posted 08-03-2014 02:16 AM ET (US) The previous version of the Suzuki 200hp outboard has a lot of loyal fans and I know several with them on Boston Whaler boats that are very happy. One can only assume that the newest version will be even better. [Changed the topic. Please, let us stick to outboard engines. --jimh]
Peter	posted 08-03-2014 06:25 AM ET (US) quote: A concern about four-stroke outboards is their weight. This 200-HP Suzuki DF200A weighs 498-lbs. To compare with an E-TEC 200 H.O. model, which is the smaller displacement 200-HP in the Evinrude line, the two-stroke engine weighs 503-lbs with its lightest gear case. This Suzuki four-stroke no longer has a weight problem. It is lighter than an E-TEC. This is not correct. The Evinrude E-TEC 200 H.O. model is the larger, not smaller, displacement 200-HP model. It's built on the 3.3L block. The E-TEC 200 (not H.O.) is built on the 60 degree 2.6L block and weighs 418-lbs in its lightest version - 80 lbs lighter than the new Suzuki. For the extra 5 lbs, the Evinrude E-TEC 200 H.O. would provide significantly more low and mid-range torque plus about 20 extra HP at WOT than the Suzuki DF200A. It's not the right motor to compare with the new Suzuki DF200A as it is in a different power segment although it weighs nearly the same as the Suzuki DF200A.
jimh	posted 08-03-2014 08:29 AM ET (US) Peter--You are right--I had the paradigm mixed up! I should have compared, as you did, the standard 200-HP E-TEC at 418-lbs with the DF200A. Big mistake on my part. I was scratching my head for a while, trying to figure out how the E-TEC got so heavy. Thanks for the correction. Looking again, we see: DF200A = 498-lbs E-TEC 200 = 418-lbs Two-stroke engine is 80-lbs lighter.
jimh	posted 08-03-2014 10:14 AM ET (US) The horsepower produced by an engine as a function of its displacement was the topic of some investigation I did last winter, and that data is summarized in a document at http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/HPperLITER.pdf In looking at the new SUZUKI DF200A, it is making about 70-HP-per-liter of displacement. This seems to be about the upper bound for this index for four-cycle outboard engines that don't use a supercharger. Here are some comparable engines: Yamaha 200, 2.785-liter for 71.8-HP/liter Honda 250, 3.583-liter for 69.8-HP/liter Yamaha 250, 3.352-liter for 74.6-HP/liter Suzuki 300, 4.028-liter for 74.5-HP/liter On that basis, the new DF200A seems to fall right in line with other four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engines with regard to how much power can be obtained from a particular displacement with a four-stroke-power-cycle engine without forced induction. Yamaha has a very similar 200-HP engine based on four-cylinders and 2.785-liter displacement. Honda has a 200-HP model but it is based on their six-cylinder engine. Images of the new Suzuki engine are hard to find. Here is a look at from an another article recently posted on a UK website: http://motorboatsmonthly.media.ipcdigital.co.uk/9091/000004ac6/e7f3/ Suzuki-DF200A-copy.jpg Some more background on Suzuki: outboard engines from Suzuki have generally been priced lower than other brands. This has been described by some observers with a phrase that was supposed be be derogatory, I guess: Suzuki was said to be "trying to buy market share." I always got a laugh out of this criticism of Suzuki. Senior people in competitors' organizations would come out with remarks like that, and they'd be parroted by others, as if adjusting the price of a product to be less than your competition was something dishonorable, immoral, or illegal in an open and free market. It also seemed to ignore the concept that price might be something of a consideration for most boaters buying outboard engines. (Speaking only for myself, I can affirm that price is an important consideration for purchasing outboard engines.) This same sort of nonsensical criticism of Suzuki also occurred when they put out their six-year warranty. Others tried to dismiss this as a "marketing gimmick." If it was a gimmick, it had an astonishing effect: every other brand of outboard engine had to improve their warranty coverage. One rather well-know brand had only a one-year warranty on their engines when Suzuki came out with a six-year warranty. Today, no manufacturer could put out an outboard engine with a one-year warranty. You can thank Suzuki for that.
Hoosier	posted 08-03-2014 10:50 AM ET (US) I had this engine's smaller sibling, the DF-175, on my 21 Walkaround. It was a sweet engine. Suzuki led the pack in pushing how far you could go with a big block four cylinder outboard.
jimh	posted 08-03-2014 01:04 PM ET (US) The DF175 has the same displacement as the DF200A. That puts it at 61-HP/liter. I don't know if the DF175 was offered or will be offered with the option of digital electronic remote throttle and shift, as the DF200A will be. Also, not sure about the gear case; probably not the electronic regular/counter rotation gear case. Here's another good article on the SUZUKI: http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/features/tech/suzuki/ suzukis-goal-10-percent-share/ In the article, Suzuki Marine America president Takuya Sato is quoted: "Our goal is continued innovation and 10 percent market share by 2017." I assume he means North American market share. The article also puts some numbers to that market. It says total outboard unit sales in 2013 were 150,000. Suzuki sold 12,500; that is an 8.3-percent share.
Hoosier	posted 08-03-2014 02:02 PM ET (US) Interesting, so does the DF-150: 2867 cc. Another example of using the same mechanical parts to make several "different" engines.
elvis	posted 08-03-2014 08:54 PM ET (US) How much does a Suzuki 200 cost compared to [E-TEC]?
jimh	posted 08-03-2014 09:38 PM ET (US) I doubt there is an answer. First, no one knows how much outboard engines cost. They are like seats on a plane. They are never sold twice at the same price. Second, the SUZUKI DF200A--you should use the model number if you want to talk about it--won't be available for six months or more, and you'll have to wait until then to find out what it will sell for. The best way to compare them is to find one dealer who sells both, and get a quote from that dealer. If you get quotes from two dealers, make sure they are exactly the same in terms of what you are buying. This is very hard, because usually no two deals are the same. There are so many elements to consider. But let us know what find out in "early 2015" about the price, when you make your inquiries.
Marko888	posted 08-07-2014 12:31 PM ET (US) http://www.globalsuzuki.com/globalnews/2014/0604.html