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Author Topic:   Tohatsu and Honda Collaboration

jimh posted 09-03-2014 10:56 AM ET (US)
As reported about one year ago in a press release, Tohatsu and Honda entered into a collaboration that provides for Honda to build larger horsepower four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engines to be sold under the Tohatsu brand. The Tohatsu website now reflects this partnership.
Tohatsu is offering a 250-HP four-cycle engine, the BFT250. See
http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/250_4st. html?gclid=CKq2_PWjxcACFSyCMgodAmUAUw
There is no mention of the Honda heritage of this engine, but it appear to be a twin to the Honda BF-250 in every way, except for the paint and cowling trim. Compare with
http://marine.honda.com/outboards/motor-detail/BF250
Tohatsu appears to have Honda-built four-cycle engines for 115, 150, 200, 225, and 250-HP models. See
http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/4st_large.html
Also see the press release from August 2013: http://static-tradeonlytoday-wp.s3.amazonaws.com/images/stories/web/ releases/tohatsu20802.pdf
Jeff posted 09-03-2014 12:19 PM ET (US)
So, what are the prices between the two offerings? Does the Tohatsu have a lower MSRP than the Honda for the same power? If not, I do not see an advantage for a consumer to buy the Tohatsu branded Honda Outboard.
jimh posted 09-03-2014 01:11 PM ET (US)
Jeff--I agree. That is, given the choice between the Honda-branded Honda engine or the Tohatsu-branded equivalent, I would tend to prefer the Honda brand. The only situation I can see where a consumer might prefer the Tohatsu branded model occurs if there is no local Honda dealer. It may be important to note that this collaboration appears to be taking place only in the USA. In other global markets, I suspect the brands remain isolated.
As for selling the same engine under two brands, there is plenty of history for that concept. OMC did it for years with Evinrude and Johnson, often with two dealers, one for each brand, in the same local area.
martyn1075 posted 09-03-2014 03:23 PM ET (US)
Does Tohatsu have a market that Honda doesn't. I don't see the benefits if not. The only thing might be a production savings so they can sell them cheaper in the USA. However the motor has the Tohatsu name on it as part of the deal?
frontier posted 09-03-2014 06:56 PM ET (US)
My guess is just the opposite of what many think - Honda is doing this to bolster their deteriorating reputation.
Tohatsu has an excellent, quality reputation.
Honda USED to be up on a pedestal, engineering and quality wise.
Not any more.
Problems with outboards and cars.
Look at the Honda Civic hybrid automobile, for example. 2009 and 2010 Civic hybrid battery failure rate is around 30%. (see Consumer Reports, April 2014 issue).
For direct comparison, the Toyota Prius Hybrid is much less than 1%.
And, lots of transmission problems in Acura and Honda vehicles for years before the problem was solved.
Huey01 posted 09-03-2014 07:44 PM ET (US)
Hi, no it is not just a US thing, down under you can buy the EXACT same engine (minus paint and stickers) in either Honda or Tohatsu. Down here the pricing is very similar so I agree with what has already been said, I too would buy a Honda before the same engine as a Tohatsu. There are rumors in the industry here in Oz as to the reason this partnership has developed and they are getting louder as time goes on.
Cheers,
Huey.
martyn1075 posted 09-03-2014 08:30 PM ET (US)
I will admit I do admire Honda marine and in general Honda and have not ever had an issues with my products both a marine engine and a midsize truck from mechanically . They make fantastic products, however I can give my two cents about their marketing and quite simply it lacks creditability in a very large way. A company that I would say it very sophisticated with their engineering is in trouble with how they market their products.
To give you an example, with my Ridgeline the truck back in 2006 was there first offering ever and it turned out to be quite a success for the first two years that is, and after that it was dying a slow death but not because it was a bad product quite the opposite. Now to fix that you have to go back to the drawing board listen to the "MARKET" and on you next attempt really let them have it. One if not two redesigns have passed them by and almost 10 years later they changed the grill twice and added a back up camera now without any notice the truck is no longer in production. All during this time they would never or at least rarely list the truck with their other vehicles on TV ads brochures etc. How are you going sell them and grow the product in an already vicious market, just the same as the marine industry.
Honda has shown they can drop a products like bag of snakes and it kind of stings after awhile but they do work really well if you have one. Its one company through first hand experience I find that actually gives you a true accurate well tested product. I really appreciate that as a buyer. In a another CW thread a poor guy has a seal that is shot in a new motor only a few years old and his prop is falling off.
If Tohatsu is helping in the marketing area maybe its a good sign. However I just don't personally see too many Tohatsu's out on the water at least not in the North Western part of the world at least not yet.
jimh posted 09-03-2014 10:01 PM ET (US)
To frontier: that is an interesting analysis. I am not really up to date on the current car market, and my admiration for Honda is based on their previous reputation for very sound engineering.
rtk posted 09-04-2014 07:30 AM ET (US)
I was in the market this spring for a small outboard engine (4-6 horsepower) for my 18 foot sailboat. My long time local marine engine dealer carries both Mercury and Evinrude. The 4-6 horsepower offerings of both Mercury and Evinrude are made by Tohatsu. The Mercury 5 horsepower was cheaper than the Evinrude so I went in that direction.
For me I prefer going to a trusted marine dealer when I make a purchase or need service. That is why I went with the Mercury instead of just going to the source and buying a Tohatsu. I value my relationship with my marine dealer.
Rich
Peter posted 09-04-2014 07:44 AM ET (US)
My impression -- Tohatsu is in the outboard motor business as a business and Honda is in the outboard motor business as a hobby.
What happens to the Honda/Tohatsu large outboard motor supply if Honda Automotive decides to switch from offering V6 motors in its automobiles to turbocharged smaller displacement I4 motors? I doubt Honda Marine alone has enough volume to maintain the V6 power head production line and still be competitive on price. So the expansion of large outboard motor outlet to include Tohatsu may be an attempt to get the volume up sufficiently to support independent production.
martyn1075 posted 09-04-2014 12:06 PM ET (US)
Peter's analysis is right, and that does seem to be the talk with Honda and their new engines for their new future automobile lineup In fact, it is one of the reasons why, I understand, the all-new Pilot is delayed in production, waiting for a release. They can't decide which way to go with power train. With that decision comes a another one with the transmission and whether or not they adapt to a modern style.
Honda is in desperate need of a modern automatic five-speed transmission on almost all their vehicles and the hybrid needs a six-speed. This new PILOT vehicle really will determine if they go with at least a six-speed but maybe a seven-speed with a newly designed I-4 engine. They need to achieve better fuel milage--the demise of the Ridgeline truck. They won't want to do the same with the PILOT as it is a far better-selling vehicle for Honda. Losing market share on the PILOT would be devistating for Honda.
Rumors have them in discussions with a ZF 9HP [a nine-speed automatic transmission designed by manufacturer ZF]. I have strong doubts that would be true. Supposedly a deal fell thru, possibly due to pressure and possible license violations owned by Chrysler.
jimh posted 09-04-2014 01:03 PM ET (US)
There is a curious analogy with Brunswick and GM. For many decades the Brunswick sterndrives (their MerCruiser brand) used large displacement V8 automobile blocks from General Motors. Brunswick just switched to making their own block for their MerCruiser-branded sterndrives. One has to wonder if there was some uncertainty about the future of GM supplying those old cast iron 5.7-liter engines.
BQUICK posted 09-04-2014 01:55 PM ET (US)
I hope Honda leaves their transmissions alone. The transmission gear wars in cars is out of control. I see that 9 speed automatic transmissions are now offered. Even with 6 speeds I don't like all the unnecessary shifting. A recent rental car I drove downshifted 2 gears just slightly dipping into the throttle. I suppose it is for gas mileage with the low torque/high rpm motors today.
cc378 posted 09-04-2014 08:39 PM ET (US)
As the long time owner of a Honda 200 (Outrage 20 whalerDrive), 60 (Sport 15), and 9.9 (Standard 11), I must say that I love their outboards. I have never done anything other than routine maintenance and have never had any problems. My Whalers and I are quite happy with Honda outboards. My only Whaler that is non-Honda is my Sport 13 where I found a leftover Yamaha 25 two stroke and use it due to its light weight.

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Author	Topic: Tohatsu and Honda Collaboration
jimh	posted 09-03-2014 10:56 AM ET (US) As reported about one year ago in a press release, Tohatsu and Honda entered into a collaboration that provides for Honda to build larger horsepower four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engines to be sold under the Tohatsu brand. The Tohatsu website now reflects this partnership. Tohatsu is offering a 250-HP four-cycle engine, the BFT250. See http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/250_4st. html?gclid=CKq2_PWjxcACFSyCMgodAmUAUw There is no mention of the Honda heritage of this engine, but it appear to be a twin to the Honda BF-250 in every way, except for the paint and cowling trim. Compare with http://marine.honda.com/outboards/motor-detail/BF250 Tohatsu appears to have Honda-built four-cycle engines for 115, 150, 200, 225, and 250-HP models. See http://www.tohatsu.com/outboards/4st_large.html Also see the press release from August 2013: http://static-tradeonlytoday-wp.s3.amazonaws.com/images/stories/web/ releases/tohatsu20802.pdf
Jeff	posted 09-03-2014 12:19 PM ET (US) So, what are the prices between the two offerings? Does the Tohatsu have a lower MSRP than the Honda for the same power? If not, I do not see an advantage for a consumer to buy the Tohatsu branded Honda Outboard.
jimh	posted 09-03-2014 01:11 PM ET (US) Jeff--I agree. That is, given the choice between the Honda-branded Honda engine or the Tohatsu-branded equivalent, I would tend to prefer the Honda brand. The only situation I can see where a consumer might prefer the Tohatsu branded model occurs if there is no local Honda dealer. It may be important to note that this collaboration appears to be taking place only in the USA. In other global markets, I suspect the brands remain isolated. As for selling the same engine under two brands, there is plenty of history for that concept. OMC did it for years with Evinrude and Johnson, often with two dealers, one for each brand, in the same local area.
martyn1075	posted 09-03-2014 03:23 PM ET (US) Does Tohatsu have a market that Honda doesn't. I don't see the benefits if not. The only thing might be a production savings so they can sell them cheaper in the USA. However the motor has the Tohatsu name on it as part of the deal?
frontier	posted 09-03-2014 06:56 PM ET (US) My guess is just the opposite of what many think - Honda is doing this to bolster their deteriorating reputation. Tohatsu has an excellent, quality reputation. Honda USED to be up on a pedestal, engineering and quality wise. Not any more. Problems with outboards and cars. Look at the Honda Civic hybrid automobile, for example. 2009 and 2010 Civic hybrid battery failure rate is around 30%. (see Consumer Reports, April 2014 issue). For direct comparison, the Toyota Prius Hybrid is much less than 1%. And, lots of transmission problems in Acura and Honda vehicles for years before the problem was solved.
Huey01	posted 09-03-2014 07:44 PM ET (US) Hi, no it is not just a US thing, down under you can buy the EXACT same engine (minus paint and stickers) in either Honda or Tohatsu. Down here the pricing is very similar so I agree with what has already been said, I too would buy a Honda before the same engine as a Tohatsu. There are rumors in the industry here in Oz as to the reason this partnership has developed and they are getting louder as time goes on. Cheers, Huey.
martyn1075	posted 09-03-2014 08:30 PM ET (US) I will admit I do admire Honda marine and in general Honda and have not ever had an issues with my products both a marine engine and a midsize truck from mechanically . They make fantastic products, however I can give my two cents about their marketing and quite simply it lacks creditability in a very large way. A company that I would say it very sophisticated with their engineering is in trouble with how they market their products. To give you an example, with my Ridgeline the truck back in 2006 was there first offering ever and it turned out to be quite a success for the first two years that is, and after that it was dying a slow death but not because it was a bad product quite the opposite. Now to fix that you have to go back to the drawing board listen to the "MARKET" and on you next attempt really let them have it. One if not two redesigns have passed them by and almost 10 years later they changed the grill twice and added a back up camera now without any notice the truck is no longer in production. All during this time they would never or at least rarely list the truck with their other vehicles on TV ads brochures etc. How are you going sell them and grow the product in an already vicious market, just the same as the marine industry. Honda has shown they can drop a products like bag of snakes and it kind of stings after awhile but they do work really well if you have one. Its one company through first hand experience I find that actually gives you a true accurate well tested product. I really appreciate that as a buyer. In a another CW thread a poor guy has a seal that is shot in a new motor only a few years old and his prop is falling off. If Tohatsu is helping in the marketing area maybe its a good sign. However I just don't personally see too many Tohatsu's out on the water at least not in the North Western part of the world at least not yet.
jimh	posted 09-03-2014 10:01 PM ET (US) To frontier: that is an interesting analysis. I am not really up to date on the current car market, and my admiration for Honda is based on their previous reputation for very sound engineering.
rtk	posted 09-04-2014 07:30 AM ET (US) I was in the market this spring for a small outboard engine (4-6 horsepower) for my 18 foot sailboat. My long time local marine engine dealer carries both Mercury and Evinrude. The 4-6 horsepower offerings of both Mercury and Evinrude are made by Tohatsu. The Mercury 5 horsepower was cheaper than the Evinrude so I went in that direction. For me I prefer going to a trusted marine dealer when I make a purchase or need service. That is why I went with the Mercury instead of just going to the source and buying a Tohatsu. I value my relationship with my marine dealer. Rich
Peter	posted 09-04-2014 07:44 AM ET (US) My impression -- Tohatsu is in the outboard motor business as a business and Honda is in the outboard motor business as a hobby. What happens to the Honda/Tohatsu large outboard motor supply if Honda Automotive decides to switch from offering V6 motors in its automobiles to turbocharged smaller displacement I4 motors? I doubt Honda Marine alone has enough volume to maintain the V6 power head production line and still be competitive on price. So the expansion of large outboard motor outlet to include Tohatsu may be an attempt to get the volume up sufficiently to support independent production.
martyn1075	posted 09-04-2014 12:06 PM ET (US) Peter's analysis is right, and that does seem to be the talk with Honda and their new engines for their new future automobile lineup In fact, it is one of the reasons why, I understand, the all-new Pilot is delayed in production, waiting for a release. They can't decide which way to go with power train. With that decision comes a another one with the transmission and whether or not they adapt to a modern style. Honda is in desperate need of a modern automatic five-speed transmission on almost all their vehicles and the hybrid needs a six-speed. This new PILOT vehicle really will determine if they go with at least a six-speed but maybe a seven-speed with a newly designed I-4 engine. They need to achieve better fuel milage--the demise of the Ridgeline truck. They won't want to do the same with the PILOT as it is a far better-selling vehicle for Honda. Losing market share on the PILOT would be devistating for Honda. Rumors have them in discussions with a ZF 9HP [a nine-speed automatic transmission designed by manufacturer ZF]. I have strong doubts that would be true. Supposedly a deal fell thru, possibly due to pressure and possible license violations owned by Chrysler.
jimh	posted 09-04-2014 01:03 PM ET (US) There is a curious analogy with Brunswick and GM. For many decades the Brunswick sterndrives (their MerCruiser brand) used large displacement V8 automobile blocks from General Motors. Brunswick just switched to making their own block for their MerCruiser-branded sterndrives. One has to wonder if there was some uncertainty about the future of GM supplying those old cast iron 5.7-liter engines.
BQUICK	posted 09-04-2014 01:55 PM ET (US) I hope Honda leaves their transmissions alone. The transmission gear wars in cars is out of control. I see that 9 speed automatic transmissions are now offered. Even with 6 speeds I don't like all the unnecessary shifting. A recent rental car I drove downshifted 2 gears just slightly dipping into the throttle. I suppose it is for gas mileage with the low torque/high rpm motors today.
cc378	posted 09-04-2014 08:39 PM ET (US) As the long time owner of a Honda 200 (Outrage 20 whalerDrive), 60 (Sport 15), and 9.9 (Standard 11), I must say that I love their outboards. I have never done anything other than routine maintenance and have never had any problems. My Whalers and I are quite happy with Honda outboards. My only Whaler that is non-Honda is my Sport 13 where I found a leftover Yamaha 25 two stroke and use it due to its light weight.