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Author Topic:   Sea Trial of MONTAUK with Older Outboard

got2fishsd posted 10-19-2014 02:49 AM ET (US)
I am looking at [buying] a 1980 MONTAUK with a 1985 Johnson 90-HP outboard engine. The current owner said the [peak cylinder pressure] is 120/118/106/103-PSI. Should I be worried about the 103-PSI? He also said all three [four?] carburetors need to be replaced because they are leaking fuel from some of the hoses.
Will I be able to sea trial the boat and motor with the carburetors the way they are?
Thanks.
RevengeFamily posted 10-19-2014 06:48 AM ET (US)
[Cylinder pressures of] 106-PSI and 103-PSI are a bit low, but the rule of thumb is to have compression within 15-PSI (or ten-percent) of each other. I have a 1984 Johnson 90-HP with similar PSI numbers, and she's still starts right up with a turn of the key. I'll run it until she quits, and then decide whether to rebuild her or step up to something a bit more modern. Those V4 blocks were pretty much bullet proof.
As far as the carburetorss go, I would never replace a carburetor because of a leaking hose. Replace the hoses, and rebuild the carburetors. Carburetor rebuild kits are still available and these are simple to rebuild.
If you buy the boat, make sure to change the water pump, spark plugs, and lower unit oil.
Best of luck,
Norm
jimh posted 10-19-2014 08:13 AM ET (US)
The cylinder pressure measurements are not so much evaluated in terms of absolute numbers but more for the range. As Norm mentioned, a range of 15-PSI is considered acceptable.
Perhaps the leaks from the carburetors are due to some failed gaskets. An engine made in c.1985 may not have been built with ethanol-gasoline blended fuel in mind. The usual epoch for awareness of ethanol-gasoline blended fuel is c.1987. There may be some rubber hoses in the engine that will need replacement.
If the engine has four cylinders it probably has four carburetors.
Binkster posted 10-19-2014 12:08 PM ET (US)
All new OMC parts are still available from your Evinrude dealer, or Gary's Marine. I have bought new parts from Gary for my 1961 V4 Evinrude Starflite 75. He even had a new short shaft driveshaft to convert that motor to a shortshaft. It has a single 2 barrel carb which I rebuilt with his kit. I run it on my antique 14-foot Sea Fury runabout.
http://www.garysmarine.com/
rich
jimh posted 10-19-2014 12:48 PM ET (US)
got2fished asks:

quote:
Will I be able to sea trial the boat and motor with the carburetors the way they are?
I am not sure how any reader could answer this question. Readers don't know if the outboard engine runs at all, or how much fuel is leaking from the hoses.
A sea trial is a good test for any boat you are considering to buy. If the engine of a boat you are considering for purchase is not fit for the sea, you should judge your offering price accordingly. If you want to become acquainted with the 1985 Johnson 90-HP outboard engine, its carburetors and hoses, and the parts needed, I very highly recommend visiting
SHOP.EVINRUDE.COM
I think you will find that SHOP.EVINRUDE.COM can offer you some amazing resources, including:
--detailed pictorial diagrams for your engine showing all parts,
--part numbers, part descriptions, and part retail prices
--a way to locate dealers near you that can furnish these parts.
The website SHOP.EVINRUDE.COM contains thousands of detailed drawings for Evinrude and Johnson engines going back for decades, and thousands and thousands of parts, descriptions, and part numbers. I think you might find it useful to visit it if you are thinking about buying any parts for the engine. It is by far the greatest on-line resource for information about parts for OMC or BRP outboard engines. I have used SHOP.EVINRUDE.COM many times to become acquainted with the details of parts, the part numbers, and the prices, and then ordered the parts from my local dealer, who has been selling Evinrude and Johnson engines for over 90-years. My local dealer has very extensive knowledge of older OMC engines. I think you can find many old OMC dealers like that. There is a strong brand loyalty with these guys.
RevengeFamily posted 10-20-2014 07:45 AM ET (US)
I too have used SHOP.EVINRUDE.COM ...
Just the fact that it contains the detailed drawings for engines I own has been a huge aid in the past.
As Jim said, it is by far the best on-line resource for Evinrude and Johnson (Outboard Marine Corporation) engine parts I have come across...
I have used the site to become more familiar with the assembly of engines, part numbers, and prices. My local dealer has been doing business with OMC for ever, and I always give him the opportunity to price match on parts I require. If he gets within ten to fifteen percent, I do business with him... Just like my father did...
Norm
boatdryver posted 10-20-2014 09:31 AM ET (US)
got2fishsd, you've probably already done this, but If I were considering buying a 30 year old outboard motor with fuel leaks, I'd be also looking for a nearby outboard tech who will do a pre-sale inspection and who likes to work on these old OMC's.
Since you live in Oceanside this shouldn't be too difficult.
JimL
got2fishsd posted 10-20-2014 02:00 PM ET (US)
jimh,
Thanks for the great info.
As far as running the boat for a sea trial, when I was doing some research on the 85' Johnson some have stated if the carbs are not performing correct the potential to score a cylindar is greater.
I of course would like to put the boat in the water and run it prior to making an offer and I dont want to spend any money to repair the carbs on a boat that is not mine.
I just dont want to run it if the carbs are going to cause damage to the engine in the shape it is in.
Best case for me is the have the seller correct the carbs prior to purchase, not sure if that is the route he wants to go.
boatdryver - I will also have a mechanice take a look at the motor, jsut trying to learn what I can.
Thanks everyone for the help.
jimh posted 10-20-2014 10:05 PM ET (US)
got2'--I think you are making a great point: DON'T RUN THE MOTOR if the carburetors are messed up. The seller won't suffer much if there is some damage, as it might not turn up until later, after the sale. So as the buyer, you are very WISE to not run the engine if it is not in good condition. I think you have made an excellent observation. I didn't see what you were getting at before, but it is clear now.
However, tell the seller you are forced to deduct some amount from your offer to provide you with a hold back to repair the carburetors. I'd figure $500 ought to cover it.
boatdryver posted 10-21-2014 11:06 AM ET (US)
Hmmm... buy a boat with a 30 year old motor without running the engine?
I suppose the provision by the seller of compression numbers on all 4 cylinders indicate that the starter motor, pistons, rods, and crankshaft are at least connected to one another.
As a compromise I'd feel better as the buyer if the engine would start and run for half a minute at idle. How much additional damage could that do beyond what may have been cause by the seller continuing to use the boat with messed up carburetors?
JimL
MattInSanDiego posted 10-21-2014 10:21 PM ET (US)
I would verify the compression numbers by doing the test myself. And if the owner won't get the motor in running condition then you should assume the worst and value the motor as salvage. I would also want to see how the boat sits in the water to help determine how much water is in the hull.
martyn1075 posted 10-21-2014 10:37 PM ET (US)
Price tells all. if the buyer wants big dollars for this unit (hull plus motor) without a running motor I walk or tell him sorry please lower your price to show hull value. To be honest 30 year motors are not worth much anymore but I still think it should run if the price is high enough to reflect the combination. I would agree he needs to get that motor running for you if not then yes assume the worst and pay reflects that. Done deal and that is it no more.
On the other hand if it runs like a champ or he gets it in running order, as a buyer I would expect near asking price. $500 may not be enough and to be honest with parts plus a mechanic that actually still knows how to fix that age of motor I'm sure it will be way beyond the $500. Try more like $1000 or more. Now you have to ask yourself is the engine worth that? IMO no, but it may very well be to others if they wish to give it a go.
Martyn

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Author	Topic: Sea Trial of MONTAUK with Older Outboard
got2fishsd	posted 10-19-2014 02:49 AM ET (US) I am looking at [buying] a 1980 MONTAUK with a 1985 Johnson 90-HP outboard engine. The current owner said the [peak cylinder pressure] is 120/118/106/103-PSI. Should I be worried about the 103-PSI? He also said all three [four?] carburetors need to be replaced because they are leaking fuel from some of the hoses. Will I be able to sea trial the boat and motor with the carburetors the way they are? Thanks.
RevengeFamily	posted 10-19-2014 06:48 AM ET (US) [Cylinder pressures of] 106-PSI and 103-PSI are a bit low, but the rule of thumb is to have compression within 15-PSI (or ten-percent) of each other. I have a 1984 Johnson 90-HP with similar PSI numbers, and she's still starts right up with a turn of the key. I'll run it until she quits, and then decide whether to rebuild her or step up to something a bit more modern. Those V4 blocks were pretty much bullet proof. As far as the carburetorss go, I would never replace a carburetor because of a leaking hose. Replace the hoses, and rebuild the carburetors. Carburetor rebuild kits are still available and these are simple to rebuild. If you buy the boat, make sure to change the water pump, spark plugs, and lower unit oil. Best of luck, Norm
jimh	posted 10-19-2014 08:13 AM ET (US) The cylinder pressure measurements are not so much evaluated in terms of absolute numbers but more for the range. As Norm mentioned, a range of 15-PSI is considered acceptable. Perhaps the leaks from the carburetors are due to some failed gaskets. An engine made in c.1985 may not have been built with ethanol-gasoline blended fuel in mind. The usual epoch for awareness of ethanol-gasoline blended fuel is c.1987. There may be some rubber hoses in the engine that will need replacement. If the engine has four cylinders it probably has four carburetors.
Binkster	posted 10-19-2014 12:08 PM ET (US) All new OMC parts are still available from your Evinrude dealer, or Gary's Marine. I have bought new parts from Gary for my 1961 V4 Evinrude Starflite 75. He even had a new short shaft driveshaft to convert that motor to a shortshaft. It has a single 2 barrel carb which I rebuilt with his kit. I run it on my antique 14-foot Sea Fury runabout. http://www.garysmarine.com/ rich
jimh	posted 10-19-2014 12:48 PM ET (US) got2fished asks: quote: Will I be able to sea trial the boat and motor with the carburetors the way they are? I am not sure how any reader could answer this question. Readers don't know if the outboard engine runs at all, or how much fuel is leaking from the hoses. A sea trial is a good test for any boat you are considering to buy. If the engine of a boat you are considering for purchase is not fit for the sea, you should judge your offering price accordingly. If you want to become acquainted with the 1985 Johnson 90-HP outboard engine, its carburetors and hoses, and the parts needed, I very highly recommend visiting SHOP.EVINRUDE.COM I think you will find that SHOP.EVINRUDE.COM can offer you some amazing resources, including: --detailed pictorial diagrams for your engine showing all parts, --part numbers, part descriptions, and part retail prices --a way to locate dealers near you that can furnish these parts. The website SHOP.EVINRUDE.COM contains thousands of detailed drawings for Evinrude and Johnson engines going back for decades, and thousands and thousands of parts, descriptions, and part numbers. I think you might find it useful to visit it if you are thinking about buying any parts for the engine. It is by far the greatest on-line resource for information about parts for OMC or BRP outboard engines. I have used SHOP.EVINRUDE.COM many times to become acquainted with the details of parts, the part numbers, and the prices, and then ordered the parts from my local dealer, who has been selling Evinrude and Johnson engines for over 90-years. My local dealer has very extensive knowledge of older OMC engines. I think you can find many old OMC dealers like that. There is a strong brand loyalty with these guys.
RevengeFamily	posted 10-20-2014 07:45 AM ET (US) I too have used SHOP.EVINRUDE.COM ... Just the fact that it contains the detailed drawings for engines I own has been a huge aid in the past. As Jim said, it is by far the best on-line resource for Evinrude and Johnson (Outboard Marine Corporation) engine parts I have come across... I have used the site to become more familiar with the assembly of engines, part numbers, and prices. My local dealer has been doing business with OMC for ever, and I always give him the opportunity to price match on parts I require. If he gets within ten to fifteen percent, I do business with him... Just like my father did... Norm
boatdryver	posted 10-20-2014 09:31 AM ET (US) got2fishsd, you've probably already done this, but If I were considering buying a 30 year old outboard motor with fuel leaks, I'd be also looking for a nearby outboard tech who will do a pre-sale inspection and who likes to work on these old OMC's. Since you live in Oceanside this shouldn't be too difficult. JimL
got2fishsd	posted 10-20-2014 02:00 PM ET (US) jimh, Thanks for the great info. As far as running the boat for a sea trial, when I was doing some research on the 85' Johnson some have stated if the carbs are not performing correct the potential to score a cylindar is greater. I of course would like to put the boat in the water and run it prior to making an offer and I dont want to spend any money to repair the carbs on a boat that is not mine. I just dont want to run it if the carbs are going to cause damage to the engine in the shape it is in. Best case for me is the have the seller correct the carbs prior to purchase, not sure if that is the route he wants to go. boatdryver - I will also have a mechanice take a look at the motor, jsut trying to learn what I can. Thanks everyone for the help.
jimh	posted 10-20-2014 10:05 PM ET (US) got2'--I think you are making a great point: DON'T RUN THE MOTOR if the carburetors are messed up. The seller won't suffer much if there is some damage, as it might not turn up until later, after the sale. So as the buyer, you are very WISE to not run the engine if it is not in good condition. I think you have made an excellent observation. I didn't see what you were getting at before, but it is clear now. However, tell the seller you are forced to deduct some amount from your offer to provide you with a hold back to repair the carburetors. I'd figure $500 ought to cover it.
boatdryver	posted 10-21-2014 11:06 AM ET (US) Hmmm... buy a boat with a 30 year old motor without running the engine? I suppose the provision by the seller of compression numbers on all 4 cylinders indicate that the starter motor, pistons, rods, and crankshaft are at least connected to one another. As a compromise I'd feel better as the buyer if the engine would start and run for half a minute at idle. How much additional damage could that do beyond what may have been cause by the seller continuing to use the boat with messed up carburetors? JimL
MattInSanDiego	posted 10-21-2014 10:21 PM ET (US) I would verify the compression numbers by doing the test myself. And if the owner won't get the motor in running condition then you should assume the worst and value the motor as salvage. I would also want to see how the boat sits in the water to help determine how much water is in the hull.
martyn1075	posted 10-21-2014 10:37 PM ET (US) Price tells all. if the buyer wants big dollars for this unit (hull plus motor) without a running motor I walk or tell him sorry please lower your price to show hull value. To be honest 30 year motors are not worth much anymore but I still think it should run if the price is high enough to reflect the combination. I would agree he needs to get that motor running for you if not then yes assume the worst and pay reflects that. Done deal and that is it no more. On the other hand if it runs like a champ or he gets it in running order, as a buyer I would expect near asking price. $500 may not be enough and to be honest with parts plus a mechanic that actually still knows how to fix that age of motor I'm sure it will be way beyond the $500. Try more like $1000 or more. Now you have to ask yourself is the engine worth that? IMO no, but it may very well be to others if they wish to give it a go. Martyn