Significant Momentum for Water Trails Initiative

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Author Topic:   Significant Momentum for Water Trails Initiative

PeteB88 posted 11-10-2014 12:41 PM ET (US)
There is significant momentum regarding Water Trails initiative, and Michigan DNR is focusing resources for this effort. I was at Great Lakes conference for water trails last summer in Saugatuck and some of the conversation including better accommodations for smaller power boats. Not just motor yachts. This said, water trails initiative targets kayak, canoe. SUP and quiet water enthusiasts.
This attendee and others strongly urged inclusion of trailer boaters and smaller boats during the conference. I will post any information I get that is relevant. It is up to all of us to "encourage" decision makers not wait for some bureaucratic solution that does not include direct public involvement. Another thing relevant is municipalities, in this area, are doing their Five Year Recreation Plan right now. Filing deadline is April 1st. If your community is on a waterway, assume your local park district is working on their Five Year Rec plan... docs, water ways, marshland etc.
dfmcintyre posted 11-10-2014 05:14 PM ET (US)
Pete -
It's interesting that you noted "...water trails initiative targets kayak, canoe..." in your post. This summer, a kayak launch was placed in Black River that runs through Port Huron. There is a 8nm "loop" that runs up Black River to a canal that empties into Lake Huron. Go south down the lake to the St. Clair River and back to Black River and back to the launch point.

Aside from our annual "Paddle and Pour" (it's sponsored by a brewery....) that brings 400+ kayaks, canoes and inflatables that day, the launch site is virtually empty. Not just minimal use.....no use.
jimh posted 11-11-2014 01:12 AM ET (US)
I am not familiar with the acronym SUP. What does it mean?
Tom Hemphill posted 11-11-2014 06:58 AM ET (US)
From West Marine's constant promotion of them, I have learned that SUP stands for "stand-up paddleboard."
PeteB88 posted 11-11-2014 12:37 PM ET (US)
Not surprised at all about minimal use of the kayak ramp. Nevertheless the MDNR, all Great Lakes states, Ontario all the way out NY are full throttle on this water trails thing. What is interesting is "they" are putting $50,000++ kayak ramps, ADA compliant, on rivers that have minimal to zero history of kayak/canoe users. Some are every 6- 10 miles (need to double check) something like that. The dock/ramp industry is "ramping" up big time. Group I work with was at Bay City last week with officials plotting out a network of these facilities on Sag Bay.
I guess my editorial comment is perhaps these installations, funded mostly with grants (public and private sources -including oil and gas revenues) will encourage more responsible use of our waterways, get families and kids off the couch and add a dimension to tourism. Creating access for handicapped people is a good thing too. The designs of these things are pretty good.
There are also kayak and SUP businesses opening everywhere and hopefully this network helps our small business owners as well.
Finally, unlike where I used to live in PNW, many streams, especially urban areas, are not respected and unknown to locals many who have lived in same place 50 years. Fishermen have used nearly every river and trim forever and still do. Introducing someone to the wonders of a local, urban stream blows their minds - even if seasoned boatsmen or paddlers. THey quickly realize they don't have to drive four hours for some on - water time.
I am concerned however, that MDNR will plant these things all over the place without direct involvement of experienced river men and outfitters. I expressed some of that at the State conference.
PeteB88 posted 11-11-2014 01:01 PM ET (US)
No problem launching at all, I think it's a bigger PIA to launch and retrieve the 13 than the Outrage 17 and bigger boats I have played around with.

jimh posted 11-11-2014 01:14 PM ET (US)
Tom--Many thanks. I had no idea what that acronym meant. I never saw it used before.
PeteB88 posted 11-11-2014 01:56 PM ET (US)
Actually, I get to see a copy of the Water Trails report tomorrow. A friend of mine works for an agency in West Mich that coordinates and administers state and federal grants. They have been working on this for sometime. It's very interesting and as I said earlier in the thread, the planners need focus on trailer boats as well not just "quiet water" (popular term) kayakers, SUPs and canoeists.
I am not sure if planners and decision makers are hearing this. Or if there is an effective lobby on behalf of trailer boaters and smaller power boats.
Jeff posted 11-11-2014 02:07 PM ET (US)
Pete-Interesting initiative. Are there any meeting on this side of the state?
Jim - S.U.P., SUP, SUP's, Standup Paddleboard and Paddleboards are all the same thing. A large board (varying hull designs) you stand on and paddle with a single bladed paddle.
Over the last 2 years my wife and I have really taken to our boards. I like it so much better than Kayaking and find it much more comfortable. We often take our kids out with us and let them sit on the board as we navigate.
We paddle on both small and large inland lakes, along the inter-coastal when in Florida, as well as out on the open great lakes. We also use the boards to do adventure races with such as the M22 Challenge http://m22challenge.com .
http://instagram.com/p/qQSByth1Io/
http://instagram.com/p/o7ONkDh1On/
http://instagram.com/p/lLvKBlB1Jk/
http://instagram.com/p/o7Ne5oB1Ni/
I also load them into the boat and we take them all over with us.
http://instagram.com/p/o9LhFgB1N8/
I have two boards and my wife gives lessons if anyone in the Detroit area wanted to try them out next season.
jimh posted 11-11-2014 02:37 PM ET (US)
What are "quiet water enthusiasts"? Is that some sort of code word for people who go boating without engines or motors?
padrefigure posted 11-11-2014 02:56 PM ET (US)
Being generous--yes, quiet water enthusiasts pursue water sports without the benefit of outboard power. Many are far more activist, however, and seek to restrict the ability of others to visit the same waters unless they do so without benefit of internal combustion engines.
jimh posted 11-11-2014 05:05 PM ET (US)
The impression I get: when someone appears before legislators and starts using the code words "quiet water enthusiasts", then boaters like us ought to be on alert that our form of recreational boating is under assault.
saumon posted 11-11-2014 05:31 PM ET (US)
Before you'll know, you could wake up with some "quiet waters" designated areas. That reminds me of what happened up there in the early '90's when a lot of smaller lakes went "motor less", mainly due to the idiots jet-skiers...
PeteB88 posted 11-11-2014 08:16 PM ET (US)
This is about mapping water trails, accommodating kayakers and canoeists with reasonable docks and launches, especially for ADA and creating some camp sites and put ins. Mostly on rivers and streams. Expedition kayakers were at the conference advocating for simple facilities, nothing over the top and providing very interesting background stories about their voyages. No one made any mention about power boats during the sessions I was in. I will see the report tomorrow.
But you never know….
It happened on the Deschutes River back in the early 90s. Grant chasers disguised as the Sierra Club came up with this idiotic plan to ban power boats on the lower 20 miles of the Deschutes. Excuse was jet boat wakes have a negative impact on riparian habitat. The Deschutes is arguably the finest summer steelhead river any where; dry line, floating flies for silver bullets. Guides and outfitters either run drift boats and rafts or river jet boats from the mouth (at the Columbia R) up about 20 miles. Action begins in late July/August and is pretty hot until chinook and silvers show up on the coast.
In any case, these jokers started to get traction on banning jet boats. I remember telling a couple of my outfitter friends "you better take this seriously…." there was a public hearing scheduled, I believe right in the middle of deer season. A handful if any of the Guides and Packers showed up and a scattering of private voters. Issue passed stipulating that power boats can only run the Deschutes every other week. I am pretty sure that regulation is still in place.
Impact? Ridiculous. The Deschutes flows perfect about 5500 CFS. Winter flows can triple that and huge runoff and rain events can blow it to 50,000 CFS. The argument was jet boat (flat bottom) wakes screw up the shoreline - no way. Fist of all jet boat wakes are minimal. Second, the river at that speed all but diminishes any wake except for a riffle by the time it gets to shore.
For the guides and outfitters, this rule sucks. For the private boat owner, they have to schedule their trips at times when there is a higher number of power boats on the river and competing for shoreline for fishing and campsites.
jimh posted 11-13-2014 11:06 AM ET (US)
I like Pete's use of the term momentum in describing the political process of enacting legislation related to water trails. Pete says there is "significant" momentum for water trails. The term momentum is a technical term, and is defined as
momentum = the product of mass times velocity
We can carry this over to a political process. In order to have higher momentum, there could be a two situations:
--low mass and high velocity, or
--high mass and low velocity
It seems to me that what often happens in politics is low mass and very high velocity. By low mass I mean a very limited number of people. And by high velocity I mean a very fast processing of the legislation. That is usually necessary because the legislation needs to be kept out of sight of the large mass of people who will be affected by it until it is a done deal.
PeteB88 posted 11-13-2014 02:14 PM ET (US)
Good commentary, Jim. Low mass, high velocity translates to "fast track" - generally a blind side to the legislative body by the executive who wants to avoid public input or participation process. Strategy is to give legislators little to no time to ask questions, deliberate or opportunity for detailed review before voting. Manipulating media to send broad message of support through feature stories and editorials is the norm rather than the exception especially in this state. Well, Lansing and East - West Michigan is really another world.
Where I used to live pulling off fast track legislation is extremely risky for elected officials who get schooled immediately.
I sensed a fast track attitude from the DNR people at the conference who I don't think have spent enough time working directly with what I call the "local experts and practitioners" - like us. They should meet with a group of us as part of design review process; as well as kayakers, stand up enthusiasts, canners, expedition paddlers. I said so much at the meeting, stunned them a bit but they probably just went on doing their thing. As Jack Welch said stunningly, "Hate Bureaucracy!"
I did get the water trails report last night and will read it over the weekend. I might call the project leaders sometime soon.

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Author	Topic: Significant Momentum for Water Trails Initiative
PeteB88	posted 11-10-2014 12:41 PM ET (US) There is significant momentum regarding Water Trails initiative, and Michigan DNR is focusing resources for this effort. I was at Great Lakes conference for water trails last summer in Saugatuck and some of the conversation including better accommodations for smaller power boats. Not just motor yachts. This said, water trails initiative targets kayak, canoe. SUP and quiet water enthusiasts. This attendee and others strongly urged inclusion of trailer boaters and smaller boats during the conference. I will post any information I get that is relevant. It is up to all of us to "encourage" decision makers not wait for some bureaucratic solution that does not include direct public involvement. Another thing relevant is municipalities, in this area, are doing their Five Year Recreation Plan right now. Filing deadline is April 1st. If your community is on a waterway, assume your local park district is working on their Five Year Rec plan... docs, water ways, marshland etc.
dfmcintyre	posted 11-10-2014 05:14 PM ET (US) Pete - It's interesting that you noted "...water trails initiative targets kayak, canoe..." in your post. This summer, a kayak launch was placed in Black River that runs through Port Huron. There is a 8nm "loop" that runs up Black River to a canal that empties into Lake Huron. Go south down the lake to the St. Clair River and back to Black River and back to the launch point. Aside from our annual "Paddle and Pour" (it's sponsored by a brewery....) that brings 400+ kayaks, canoes and inflatables that day, the launch site is virtually empty. Not just minimal use.....no use.
jimh	posted 11-11-2014 01:12 AM ET (US) I am not familiar with the acronym SUP. What does it mean?
Tom Hemphill	posted 11-11-2014 06:58 AM ET (US) From West Marine's constant promotion of them, I have learned that SUP stands for "stand-up paddleboard."
PeteB88	posted 11-11-2014 12:37 PM ET (US) Not surprised at all about minimal use of the kayak ramp. Nevertheless the MDNR, all Great Lakes states, Ontario all the way out NY are full throttle on this water trails thing. What is interesting is "they" are putting $50,000++ kayak ramps, ADA compliant, on rivers that have minimal to zero history of kayak/canoe users. Some are every 6- 10 miles (need to double check) something like that. The dock/ramp industry is "ramping" up big time. Group I work with was at Bay City last week with officials plotting out a network of these facilities on Sag Bay. I guess my editorial comment is perhaps these installations, funded mostly with grants (public and private sources -including oil and gas revenues) will encourage more responsible use of our waterways, get families and kids off the couch and add a dimension to tourism. Creating access for handicapped people is a good thing too. The designs of these things are pretty good. There are also kayak and SUP businesses opening everywhere and hopefully this network helps our small business owners as well. Finally, unlike where I used to live in PNW, many streams, especially urban areas, are not respected and unknown to locals many who have lived in same place 50 years. Fishermen have used nearly every river and trim forever and still do. Introducing someone to the wonders of a local, urban stream blows their minds - even if seasoned boatsmen or paddlers. THey quickly realize they don't have to drive four hours for some on - water time. I am concerned however, that MDNR will plant these things all over the place without direct involvement of experienced river men and outfitters. I expressed some of that at the State conference.
PeteB88	posted 11-11-2014 01:01 PM ET (US) No problem launching at all, I think it's a bigger PIA to launch and retrieve the 13 than the Outrage 17 and bigger boats I have played around with.
jimh	posted 11-11-2014 01:14 PM ET (US) Tom--Many thanks. I had no idea what that acronym meant. I never saw it used before.
PeteB88	posted 11-11-2014 01:56 PM ET (US) Actually, I get to see a copy of the Water Trails report tomorrow. A friend of mine works for an agency in West Mich that coordinates and administers state and federal grants. They have been working on this for sometime. It's very interesting and as I said earlier in the thread, the planners need focus on trailer boats as well not just "quiet water" (popular term) kayakers, SUPs and canoeists. I am not sure if planners and decision makers are hearing this. Or if there is an effective lobby on behalf of trailer boaters and smaller power boats.
Jeff	posted 11-11-2014 02:07 PM ET (US) Pete-Interesting initiative. Are there any meeting on this side of the state? Jim - S.U.P., SUP, SUP's, Standup Paddleboard and Paddleboards are all the same thing. A large board (varying hull designs) you stand on and paddle with a single bladed paddle. Over the last 2 years my wife and I have really taken to our boards. I like it so much better than Kayaking and find it much more comfortable. We often take our kids out with us and let them sit on the board as we navigate. We paddle on both small and large inland lakes, along the inter-coastal when in Florida, as well as out on the open great lakes. We also use the boards to do adventure races with such as the M22 Challenge http://m22challenge.com . http://instagram.com/p/qQSByth1Io/ http://instagram.com/p/o7ONkDh1On/ http://instagram.com/p/lLvKBlB1Jk/ http://instagram.com/p/o7Ne5oB1Ni/ I also load them into the boat and we take them all over with us. http://instagram.com/p/o9LhFgB1N8/ I have two boards and my wife gives lessons if anyone in the Detroit area wanted to try them out next season.
jimh	posted 11-11-2014 02:37 PM ET (US) What are "quiet water enthusiasts"? Is that some sort of code word for people who go boating without engines or motors?
padrefigure	posted 11-11-2014 02:56 PM ET (US) Being generous--yes, quiet water enthusiasts pursue water sports without the benefit of outboard power. Many are far more activist, however, and seek to restrict the ability of others to visit the same waters unless they do so without benefit of internal combustion engines.
jimh	posted 11-11-2014 05:05 PM ET (US) The impression I get: when someone appears before legislators and starts using the code words "quiet water enthusiasts", then boaters like us ought to be on alert that our form of recreational boating is under assault.
saumon	posted 11-11-2014 05:31 PM ET (US) Before you'll know, you could wake up with some "quiet waters" designated areas. That reminds me of what happened up there in the early '90's when a lot of smaller lakes went "motor less", mainly due to the idiots jet-skiers...
PeteB88	posted 11-11-2014 08:16 PM ET (US) This is about mapping water trails, accommodating kayakers and canoeists with reasonable docks and launches, especially for ADA and creating some camp sites and put ins. Mostly on rivers and streams. Expedition kayakers were at the conference advocating for simple facilities, nothing over the top and providing very interesting background stories about their voyages. No one made any mention about power boats during the sessions I was in. I will see the report tomorrow. But you never know…. It happened on the Deschutes River back in the early 90s. Grant chasers disguised as the Sierra Club came up with this idiotic plan to ban power boats on the lower 20 miles of the Deschutes. Excuse was jet boat wakes have a negative impact on riparian habitat. The Deschutes is arguably the finest summer steelhead river any where; dry line, floating flies for silver bullets. Guides and outfitters either run drift boats and rafts or river jet boats from the mouth (at the Columbia R) up about 20 miles. Action begins in late July/August and is pretty hot until chinook and silvers show up on the coast. In any case, these jokers started to get traction on banning jet boats. I remember telling a couple of my outfitter friends "you better take this seriously…." there was a public hearing scheduled, I believe right in the middle of deer season. A handful if any of the Guides and Packers showed up and a scattering of private voters. Issue passed stipulating that power boats can only run the Deschutes every other week. I am pretty sure that regulation is still in place. Impact? Ridiculous. The Deschutes flows perfect about 5500 CFS. Winter flows can triple that and huge runoff and rain events can blow it to 50,000 CFS. The argument was jet boat (flat bottom) wakes screw up the shoreline - no way. Fist of all jet boat wakes are minimal. Second, the river at that speed all but diminishes any wake except for a riffle by the time it gets to shore. For the guides and outfitters, this rule sucks. For the private boat owner, they have to schedule their trips at times when there is a higher number of power boats on the river and competing for shoreline for fishing and campsites.
jimh	posted 11-13-2014 11:06 AM ET (US) I like Pete's use of the term momentum in describing the political process of enacting legislation related to water trails. Pete says there is "significant" momentum for water trails. The term momentum is a technical term, and is defined as momentum = the product of mass times velocity We can carry this over to a political process. In order to have higher momentum, there could be a two situations: --low mass and high velocity, or --high mass and low velocity It seems to me that what often happens in politics is low mass and very high velocity. By low mass I mean a very limited number of people. And by high velocity I mean a very fast processing of the legislation. That is usually necessary because the legislation needs to be kept out of sight of the large mass of people who will be affected by it until it is a done deal.
PeteB88	posted 11-13-2014 02:14 PM ET (US) Good commentary, Jim. Low mass, high velocity translates to "fast track" - generally a blind side to the legislative body by the executive who wants to avoid public input or participation process. Strategy is to give legislators little to no time to ask questions, deliberate or opportunity for detailed review before voting. Manipulating media to send broad message of support through feature stories and editorials is the norm rather than the exception especially in this state. Well, Lansing and East - West Michigan is really another world. Where I used to live pulling off fast track legislation is extremely risky for elected officials who get schooled immediately. I sensed a fast track attitude from the DNR people at the conference who I don't think have spent enough time working directly with what I call the "local experts and practitioners" - like us. They should meet with a group of us as part of design review process; as well as kayakers, stand up enthusiasts, canners, expedition paddlers. I said so much at the meeting, stunned them a bit but they probably just went on doing their thing. As Jack Welch said stunningly, "Hate Bureaucracy!" I did get the water trails report last night and will read it over the weekend. I might call the project leaders sometime soon.