Forum: WHALER
  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
  The Coming Ice Age

Post New Topic  Post Reply
search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   The Coming Ice Age
jimh posted 11-28-2014 11:27 PM ET (US)   Profile for jimh   Send Email to jimh  
While driving to northern Michigan earlier this week, I noticed that a couple of inland lakes along the highway were already frozen over. NOAA reports that Lake Superior may only be free of ice for about five months of this year. And I just read an interesting article about steady growth in the last decade of Antarctic sea ice, increasing at a noticeable rate of 1-percent annually. The NFL cancelled a football game and the NHL cancelled a hockey game due to a blizzard making travel impossible.

We needed a little tune-up on our home heating boiler and it took two weeks to get the service man out because the service agency has been swamped with no-heat emergency calls all month due to record-setting cold weather. We've been wearing sweatpants and fleece jackets in the house for ten days while limping along with the boiler only working at about 50-percent power.

Are we at the onset of a new ice age? When will I see a PBS special about this?

Is this happening because I drove an SUV in the 1980's?

Mambo Minnow posted 11-29-2014 09:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mambo Minnow  Send Email to Mambo Minnow     
New England not much better Jim. We got a Thanksgiving storm and have upwards of 10 inches of snow inland from the coast. Temperatures are 10 degrees lower than average today. Glad I shrink-wrapped early this season.
wezie posted 11-29-2014 11:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for wezie  Send Email to wezie     
Any reversal in average temps will have to be blessed by those making all the money from warming mania. Won't happen! So you are wrong Jim, it is Warmer, Not Colder!

There was one "theory" that all this anti-everything green cult would result in an ice cap down to St. Louis. I believe it was based on the same amount of real evidence used in the anti-everything cult prognastications.
But it may prove more accurate!

Buy more underwear, but do not tell Al.

Hoosier posted 11-29-2014 12:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for Hoosier  Send Email to Hoosier     
Jim set me up with this thread since he knows I'm in the "The Sun is Cooling" camp. So, here goes, check out this video series on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL00u99IRraJtn38lgAequUjcZR_uFnkdY

They were inspired on the books "Cold Sun" and "Dark Winter" by John Casey. The guy does a nice job of aggergating data from around the world and doesn't make up stuff. Buy long johns.....

foghorn posted 11-29-2014 01:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for foghorn  Send Email to foghorn     
If you put 10 scientists in a room and ask for an explantion, half the group will attribute this to climate change causing the Arctic sea ice to melt. This impacts the jet stream, resulting in big dips into central North America, which stay longer than in the past. There is still lots of cold air in the north, and this floods the dip for weeks at a time. The reasoning involves a weakening of the temperature and pressure gradients that contribute to a robust jet stream. A weak jet stream is prone to sitting in one place for extended periods.
On the other hand, the other half of the group will say " We beg to differ ".

Foghorn

retired posted 11-29-2014 01:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for retired    
Out here on the west coast I keep hearing that the Arctic ice-cap is melting and that the water levels are rising and the polar bears are at risk due to lack of ice- so what is really going on??
PeteB88 posted 11-29-2014 01:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for PeteB88  Send Email to PeteB88     
End of the WERLD!!
Binkster posted 11-29-2014 02:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster  Send Email to Binkster     
No, jimh it seems colder for you because you heating system is not working properly. When its repaired you will come back to reality. Its winter and its always cold up there. that's why many of us don't live there, although I'm working on my boat in the garage wearing jeans and a sweat shirt. Our temperature shold be back to normal next week, about 78 degrees.

rich

martyn1075 posted 11-29-2014 03:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
I don't know in Jim's case that region has had it bad all year. A cold summer and now again cold winter. Not too long ago Jim started a thread about how cold the summer has been for them. Cool temperatures in that case from a stuborn low pressure system parked just above Michigan toward Canada had arctic cold front air that was being funelled down directly over Michigan and Great Lakes. Warm air and extended high pressures on both sides to keep it from shifting away. Bad luck
I think, but if you get it returning year after year for about 5 years or so then we can talk about it again as a global "cooling" thing lol!. It's a bit whacky everywhere I think expect Hawaii they shift about 2-3 degrees all year. They get enough rain to survive absolutely amazes me.
wezie posted 11-29-2014 06:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for wezie  Send Email to wezie     
Hosier got it right. "Scientists" only have two stories. It is going to get colder or it is going to get hotter. The succesful scientists how ver, ask what do you want me to prove to get the grant.

That money is being funneled to the "warming" side.

As our progressive friends love to say, follow the money, only here it is follow the money givers.

frontier posted 11-29-2014 07:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for frontier  Send Email to frontier     
Thomas Sowell once said "Beware when 'experts' agree".
That usually means they want to spend more of someone else's money on their current fad belief.
Dave Sutton posted 11-30-2014 10:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
It's 77 here in Bimini.

Yup... pretty cool for this time of year...

Dave

.

Binkster posted 11-30-2014 10:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster  Send Email to Binkster     
Gee, it's 78 degrees here in Central Fl. The Bahamas are always cool in the winter. And forget about swimming. We're heading to Cozumel on the 15th. It's more summerlike but the water is still pretty cool.

rich

17 bodega posted 11-30-2014 02:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for 17 bodega  Send Email to 17 bodega     
Here is some interesting data from NASA:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/WorldOfChange/sea_ice_south. php

discussing the expanding ice that Jim speaks of in Antarctica.


Some general "climate change" data from NASA:

http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Some interesting facts to chew on. Note the bibliography of references at the bottom of the article.

DVollrath posted 11-30-2014 03:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for DVollrath  Send Email to DVollrath     
The NASA articles and citations are all well and good, with commendable attention to detail.

What else would you expect from the same folks who faked the moon landings? :)

17 bodega posted 11-30-2014 03:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for 17 bodega  Send Email to 17 bodega     
Yes... but CNN always tells the truth!

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/30/tech/innovation/record-temperatures/index. html?hpt=hp_t2


I guess CNN forgot to include the great lakes.

The data in this article comes from NOAA, the government agency that brings us the national weather service as well as having some involvement in homeland security.... they do some policing and patrol the oceans investigating bad guys that fall outside coast guard law enforcement.

knothead posted 11-30-2014 04:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for knothead  Send Email to knothead     

To get an idea of sea level rise, check out the NOAA site.
Look under Tides and Charts, sea level trends.

You may be interested to find out when your favorite coastal city or beach will be inundated.

regards---knothead

Hoosier posted 11-30-2014 06:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for Hoosier  Send Email to Hoosier     
Hmmm.... If October was the warmest on record how come the Northern Hemisphere snow cover was so much above normal? I sure want to see the same data for November.

http://climate.rutgers.edu/snowcover/chart_vis.php?ui_year=2014& ui_month=10&ui_set=2

martyn1075 posted 12-01-2014 01:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Is it the air temperature that some scientist are worked up about or is the under ground or core temperature. There is a big difference. The earth can have record cold snaps with more snow recorded dating back to decades ago, but we still have the earth core warming up which is ironic. Some will tell you its the ground earth temperature is rising and notably the areas that receive temperature changes of 15 degrees or higher in any given day that is effecting what we call normal livable levels to our way of life.

I fully understand why it would effect farming in some areas of the world which in return would cause somewhat significant percentage of food shortage given our rising population. We still have to look at the big picture which takes hundreds of thousand of years to reveal the truth about our weather and how it plays a role but we just don't live that long to ever find out and by the time you figure it out the weather pattern is going the other way. I
think its just about how to adapt, as humans we have that advantage other then we can be incredibly stupid at the same time.

frontier posted 12-01-2014 09:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for frontier  Send Email to frontier     
What is amazing is the scope of the global warming - climate change scam. And how many people have been taken. Their money is gone forever.
And a lot of taxpayers money is gone forever.
It makes Bernie Madoff's scam look like an elementary school bully taking lunch money from 1st graders.
Wealthy from the scam, Al Gore is living high on the hog. His (now ex) wife figured him and the scam out.
Why people keep buying into it is beyond me. Buying carbon credits from an AL Gore company? You might as well take your money and flush it down the toilet.
Go buy a Boston Whaler instead.
martyn1075 posted 12-01-2014 11:51 AM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Maybe Al Gore and company could use that money to build a time machine. Then he could take his Scientists and head back to the Dinosaur age like Jurassic Park and study how they survived on this same earth for over 200 MILLION years! I'm pretty sure there were no T Rex's mixing up antibiodics behind a 1000 year old red cedar stump when there young ones were falling ill. Not panicking when at some point there weather was not so favourable for a few a hundred years at a time.

How many times did they go through what we are going through right now with a few periods of temerature changes? Did it play havoc to certain species I would guess yes probably but they adapted and survived and did so for 200 million years until nature won the war. Humans existance at 200 thousand years is a pin drop in a hay stack in comparison so I don't think we have the experience to fully comprehend weather change other than in it does interfere with our way of life and we don't like it so much. Some get a bit bent out of shape and cranky. Some make money and make us feel bad at the same time. We of course are not giant lizards and can't live like them but the test of time is evident and factual.

Lohff posted 12-02-2014 03:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for Lohff  Send Email to Lohff     
Did Al Gore invent the Boston Whaler?
thegage posted 12-02-2014 09:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for thegage  Send Email to thegage     
You guys crack me up.

If climate change skeptics/deniers/conspiracy theorists went to the Sahara on one of the rare days it happens to rain they'd conclude that all those who call it a desert are wrong.

There is a difference between weather and climate.

There is a difference between weather trends over thousands of years and those over hundreds or even decades.

Current climate date going back only a few hundred years show that changes are happening at a faster rate and at higher temperature swings, than in any previous time that we are able to examine (going back about 700,000 years). (Hint for those who say "It's always happened": it's the combination of LEVEL of change and RATE of change that is unprecedented.)

Data trends show a cyclical heating/cooling cycle, but when the next heating cycle comes it's always higher than the previous one.

Science is not about absolutism but about theory, observation and testing of that theory based on data, confirmation by your peers, and continued refinement of theories based on new data. All this work will eventually result in an agreement and a high degree of certainty that the overall theory is correct. If 90% of scientists who study this every day say it's happening, but 10% say it isn't, that's normal for the scientific method. Can the science get more certain? Yes. Will there be current conclusions/theories that are shown to be wrong? Yes. That does not mean that the overall theory (i.e. man made climate change) is wrong.

Sarcasm and ridicule are easy. Doing the essential work of data collection and investigation is difficult. For example, I'd love to see the detailed investigation that shows that all of the world's climate scientists are colluding to defraud governments. (And no, Climategate was not a conspiracy.)

People used to say that Earth's resources were limitless and humans a powerless entity subject to the whims of Nature. Yet there are enough people now to pollute vast oceans, denude them of fish, and kill untold numbers of non-human species. Humans are already affecting Earth's biosphere in ways previously thought impossible. Seeing that we now also significantly affect climate is not a surprise.

frontier posted 12-02-2014 10:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for frontier  Send Email to frontier     
This notion that 90% of scientists agree with man-made global warming is bogus and part of the scam.
They are mostly UN sponsored third world 'scientists', many from countries with thug dictators. Whose livelihood depends on continuing the scam. With your tax money.
Credentials? They may have a degree from a local clown college.

jimh posted 12-02-2014 11:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Earlier this summer we were entering the last stretch of a long passage inland to an anchorage called THE POOL. To reach our destination we had to cross a shallow and narrow passage with a depth of about 6-feet. We often encounter situations like this in our cruising of the northern Great Lakes. There are wonderful harbors and refuges where you can just get to them in a small boat because there is just enough water to transit a passage leading to them

As we cross over these obstacles, I often think of the wonderful good luck we have. The water level is just high enough to let us pass. If the water were three-feet lower we could not reach the anchorage.

This water level is not the same water level in the Great Lakes that existed 10,000-years ago. It is just the present water level. The notion that because the water level at this day is at this level it is therefore the PROPER water level escapes me. It is just the water level we have now. It might change--indeed it has changed in the past 40-years, up and down over a range of six or seven feet. But I don't think that there is anything that a government can do, that mankind can do, that legislation can do, to prevent the water level from changing in the future. Man might be able to affect it by a few inches, but not by a huge amount. Just in the past three years the water level has changed by several feet.

As we were transiting this passage, the temperature was moderate. We enjoy boating there in August. But 10,000 years ago the whole region was under ice. The water we travel on was frozen solid. Who is to say that the temperature we enjoyed in August 2014 is the proper temperature for this part of the planet? That if the temperature changes, up or down, it must be due to man? That to stop change I must drive a car with an $8,000 battery that can only go 100-miles?

martyn1075 posted 12-02-2014 12:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
If you own a boston Whaler Al Gore should be given you a pat on the back and sharing a tax credit because its a product that has longevity. Somehow I don't see that happening in fact I see all these extra taxes at the dealer.

Credentials? How about real past experience? No doubt these people are academically smart and very passionate about their work. I can respect that a great deal. Experienced? no impossible with are limited time on this earth as humans, but to take on a topic and battle they choose to they need to be experinced in the several millions if not not longer. We need that data its not compeley there yet and probably not going to be for several thousands more. Scientist have made some great strides in just less than a hundred years but let's get serious a hundred years and we now know the entire process of the earths cycle? I think not.

One of the most interesting programs I have ever watched explained how scientist can now reach into the ice remove a singnificant chunk and within that block can tell the earths changes in regards to climate. Their conclusion was that the earth gets really hot and immediately really cool and this cycle continues with some cooler and some hotter then previous changes. This takes several thousands of years though, not over night and certainly not within a few hundred years like AL GORE and company make you believe. There is NO money in thousand and million or years. They need panic now!

Milions of years which is really what we need. Dinasaurs were in the 200 million plus range thanks to fossils but we need data before that age, during and after. However scientist regard their current findings as normal process. The other conclusion is that the state we are in is the opposite not normal so they say. The fact we have not seen a drastic change in quite a while and are climate in result is mild and passive is odd. This means a great percentage of the earth is habitable at the moment. We love it! but the earth? not so much it just means more trash. Regardless we are at the mercy of nature I think its far too large of a topic that can have a clear cut answer. Enjoy your life its probably a good one that's its not too cold and and not too hot most of the time.

17 bodega posted 12-02-2014 12:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for 17 bodega  Send Email to 17 bodega     
May I suggest starting with a couple of high school to junior college level courses on basic earth and life science to help some understand some of the concepts outlined above.

A library resources class is always helpful too. It can help you authenticate material by researching its source. Look for the original source of the material.

Just because your favorite commentator on TV said it's true doesn't mean it's true... "some people say...." is an example of poorly sourced material. "Stanford University Hopkins Marine Lab released a study...." is more reliable and has a trail of information to trace.

AZdave posted 12-02-2014 02:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for AZdave  Send Email to AZdave     
I think this is the page Knothead was referring to. http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends.html Note that all the colored arrows show the trend with respect to a local landmark on shore. Does anyone think there might be some rebound occurring this long after the last glaciation? As jimh points out, the level of the Great Lakes is changing due to rebound. I've read that the route of the voyageurs would now require many miles of portage that were navigable in a large canoe three hundred years ago.
tedious posted 12-02-2014 02:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
As with many issues in our time, any truth that may exist is hidden behind a multilayered curtain of politics. And of course politics is all about who wins and who loses in the short term, not about what's fair or right, or what makes sense in a time period beyond the current term of office - and maybe the next, if you're feeling generous.
martyn1075 posted 12-02-2014 03:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Exactly a couple of books are not going to help with the mass understanding of weather change. That knowledge is quite a bit beyond what we know in our lifetime. Exactly thanks for pointing that one out!

martyn1075 posted 12-02-2014 04:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
tedious... very true and unfortunate at times. Wining losing and money are the driving forces. In some cases to be fair government does makes some good calls they are not all bad.
knothead posted 12-05-2014 01:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for knothead  Send Email to knothead     
AZ Dave,

I've read that rebound and subsidence resulting from glaciation account for some of the differences on the sea level rise/fall in different locations.

The northern gauges will be affected by rebound, look at Alaska,and Maine as an example. The Chesapeake region to northeastern NC is affected by glacier related subsidence.
The weight of the glaciers to the north pushed the land up, much like squeezing on a tube of toothpaste,with the weight gone the land is subsiding. The Gulf Coast is subsiding for altogether different reasons.

It's an interesting subject, check out the tide gauges around the world, some have been in existence for hundreds of years.

best regards---knothead

jimp posted 12-05-2014 05:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimp  Send Email to jimp     
Isostatic rebound: "is the rise of land masses that were depressed by the huge weight of ice sheets during the last glacial period, through a process known as isostasy. It affects northern Europe (especially Scotland, Estonia, Latvia, Fennoscandia, and northern Denmark), Siberia, Canada, the Great Lakes of Canada and the United States, the coastal region of the US state of Maine, parts of Patagonia, and Antarctica."

In Juneau, Alaska, from a 2007 paper:

"Over the next century, global sea level is projected to
rise 0.3 ft to 3.0 ft. In the City and Borough of Juneau, however, the land surface is rising as a result of the loss of glacial ice (isostatic rebound), and the rate of uplift is greater than the projected rate of global sea level rise. Over the next century, the relative sea level in the CBJ likely will decrease between 1.0 and 3.6 ft."

Also, during a tour in Glacier Bay National Park and Preserve (50-miles west of Juneau) a few years ago, park rangers made a show of pointing out the old shoreline "up there" where it used to be before the land starting rising (isostatic rebound).

JimP

moabelite posted 12-06-2014 01:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for moabelite  Send Email to moabelite     
This whole "debate" has always struck me as odd. Several truths that are important to my consideration of next steps for humanity:
1)Climate change has occurred in the past. These changes have been caused by both external and internal planetary workings.
2)Species (many) have gone extinct as a result of previous swings.
3)Climate change is occurring again.
4)The human species (collectively) does not want to go extinct.
5)Regardless of the cause, we as a species are uniquely poised to influence the progression and outcome of climate change.
All of these statements are irrefutable and as such I can never quite understand arguing for the "do nothing" strategy.
Hoosier posted 12-06-2014 06:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for Hoosier  Send Email to Hoosier     
I'll take issue with number 5, we can deal with the effects of climate change but we're not going to effect climate change. We can adapt to the coming changes by preparing for them through appropriate agricultural policies to insure our food crops are suitable for the coming environment.
fno posted 12-07-2014 06:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for fno  Send Email to fno     
It is important to note that the amount of water(salt or fresh) on this planet is finite. Rain,snow,ice,drought, lake levels, sea levels are mere indicators of what the distribution of that water is. Some of us should be more concerned with not having drinkable water before the sea rises to our doors.
boatdryver posted 12-07-2014 07:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for boatdryver  Send Email to boatdryver     
When preparing a slide show covering our boat trip to Glacier Bay I used a National Park Service Map which showed the location of the face of glaciers at different times starting in 1793.

In 1793, when Captain Vancouver first charted the area, there was a glacier wall of ice at the entrance to the bay. The strait outside was given the name "Icy Strait".

By the 1860's the glaciers hundreds of feet thick had retreated 50 miles. I was surprised at the rate of climate change occurring at that time, before the Industrial age had spread much beyond Europe. There were no power plants, automobiles, railroads, or Jet aircraft.

JimL

Peter posted 12-07-2014 07:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I wonder what the "climatologist" were saying to their people as the glaciers in the events depicted in the video link below were retreating and the sea level was rising -- some 20,000 years ago.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeeIgDs4SdY

martyn1075 posted 12-07-2014 08:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
I'm not sure but its safe to say the reason why we are doing as well as we are is only because are climate has warmed up to allow a unique balance of mild and steady weather pattern. The earths short track record (hundreds of thousands of years) by humans has shown mainly bitterly cold patterns that would not allow us to live the way we are at least not in big numbers or maybe at all.

Since foscile fuels have been emitted into the atmasphere since the last ice age is the biggest argument of all. How will they play into our change. Everything could be on a natural target of change but now could these fuels with a huge increase human species population puts a massive question mark looking to the future. IMO I think the change is normal BUT the trash that we give due to our lifestyle mixed with the fuels is not normal in world history at least as far back as the dinosaur age. Maybe its safe to say they had an extended time of similar mild weather to survive. It also safe to say they weren't digging for fuel and on chemicals to produce just about everything we use. They lasted 250 million years humans existent is a pin in a hay stack. It will be real interesting to see its too bad we not be around to see someday.

Post New Topic  Post Reply
Hop to:


Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.