Forum: WHALER
  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
  E-TEC GEN-2 for Smaller Engines

Post New Topic  Post Reply
search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   E-TEC GEN-2 for Smaller Engines
saumon posted 02-07-2015 11:50 AM ET (US)   Profile for saumon   Send Email to saumon  
Asked a BRP representative today at the Montreal boat show when the Evinrude E-TEC GEN-2 technology will trickle down to the outboards under 200hp.

Answer: "It's quite unlikely that it will happen for the next year (2016), but MAYBE in two years for some models."

jimh posted 02-07-2015 02:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Thanks for the report of your conversation. I am not surprised with the proposed time frame.

For the new small-block engines, I am waiting to see if BRP stays with a 74-degree V6 block and reduces displacement from the present 3.441-liter block for the lower horsepower models. If the displacement is scaled in proportion to the 300-HP with 3.441-liters, then a 200-HP small-block would have a displacement of 2.294-liters. (See more below on this size.)

The present small block engine is 2.6-liter engine. The 74-degree V6 increased the large block displacement to 3.441 from 3.3-liters (although the top rated engines were already 3.4-liter, I believe), so on that basis I would expect a new 74-degree small block engine to have perhaps 2.7-liter displacement.

Because the 74-degree V6 was a completely new and radical Starboard-Starboard block design (instead of the conventional mirror cylinder banks), and because extensive computational fluid dynamics modeling was used in the design of the ports and passages for the intake and exhaust, I expect that some further research will be needed to produce a smaller displacement V6 engine.

On the other hand, if BRP were to go to a V4 block and just discard two cylinders from the V6, they'd have a 2.291-liter displacement engine, which would be in proportion to the 300-HP big block in terms of power per displacement. That might be a faster path to development. Going to a V4 would also reduce weight and overall engine size, which could also be advantageous for engines in the 135-HP to 200-HP range.

A further consideration for BRP is to remain very strong at the 150-HP level vis-a-vis the four-cycle competitors. Some of those engines are 3.0-liter displacement. A new Evinrude E-TEC 150-HP based on a 2.7-liter displacement would certainly be stronger and compete better with the four-cycle engines using larger displacement.

Using my fairly comprehensive study of power as a function of displacement that I published a year ago at

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/HPperLITER.pdf

you can see that present-day 150-HP outboard engines tend to have a power-to-displacement ratio that ranges from large-displacement engines like the Mercury 150-HP FourStroke (Not Verado) making only 50-HP per liter, to rather small-displacement engines like the Mercury 150-HP FourStroke Verado, making at least 88.2-HP per liter (and really more if you consider the power lost running its supercharger, so almost 98-HP-per-liter). In between those extremes, Suzuki has a large-displacement 150-HP with 52.3-HP-per-liter, Yamaha has a 150-HP with 56.2-HP-per-liter , and Honda a 150-HP with 63.7-HP per liter

An Evinrude E-TEC 150-HP with 2.7-liter would be making 55.5-HP per liter, which should be plenty of displacement to produce performance from the advanced two-cycle design that will keep it ahead of the competition.

The new E-TEC engine design is not only substantially cleaner and more fuel efficient, but because it burns more of the fuel in each cylinder charge than ever before, it produces more horsepower from each cylinder than ever before.

jimh posted 02-07-2015 02:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The Miami International Boat Show is nearly here, and with its predominant status as the biggest of boat shows, I expect that Evinrude will have their new Evinrude 74-degree V6 3.441-liter engines on display there for the first time. Evinrude broke ranks from the usual trend of making the big reveal of their new products at Miami, and instead gave their own dealers and boat builder partners the first look at their engines last summer with a giant dealer show in Wisconsin.

For many attendees at Miami this may be their first chance to see the new Evinrude 74-degree V6 engine, the GEN-2 E-TEC, and I think that will be quite enough innovation.

By the way, I got an email from Yamaha a few days ago foretelling a big introduction of new products at Miami, and more obliquely Mercury has been dropping hints it will have something new to show.

saumon posted 02-07-2015 03:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for saumon  Send Email to saumon     
quote:
jimh posted 02-07-2015 02:18 PM ET (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... I am not surprised with the proposed time frame...

I would've thought it would be sooner. I was under the impression that the 150hp class was the predominant seller and, thus, that they would develop this model first or, at least, very shortly after the big blocks.

jimh posted 02-08-2015 05:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I agree that the 150-HP level is a very competitive segment. I think the economic pressures have moved many boaters toward smaller boats and smaller engines. You see that trend overseas, or even in Canada. I can tell you that my 225-HP engine draws a lot of remarks in Canada about being "a big engine."
elvis posted 02-08-2015 07:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
I agree with Jim's last message...that's why I chose smaller Whaler...it was mostly economics.

Add to that the fact that I am repowering my 18 this week with new 150 HO ETEC with all new trimmings, too, at around $16k+....that is for me a sizeable investment in a "want" versus a "need".

I guess I am just olde school, remembering when motors were 1/10 of this price, and gas was like 29 cents a gallon. One could surmise life is relative in some ways.

elvis posted 02-08-2015 07:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Oh, and now me getting back on topic, when I was researching new power, I liked the Gen2 of thinking outside the box on new technology. Hats off to them.

That said, I am always cautious on new technology as I like being able to see a proven track record over time among end users....that goes for most autos or boats, given the substantial investment.

The Gen1 ETEC has a strong following and track record, like Yamahas I looked at, so coupled with that and the even bigger price of Gen 2, I went conservative and what I believe was more certain...I.e., the tried and true ETEC, which also, by the way, gave an appearance I was more used to seeing.

As time goes on, it will be interesting to read posts from end users who have gone Gen 2, and can ring in on what they have experienced. That feedback will be important when and if Evinrude decides to utilize some or all of the Gen 2 technology in what I think of to as olde tried and true.

Peter posted 02-08-2015 08:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I think the reasons to do a "G2" to the 2.6L 60 degree V6 line or the 1.7L V4 models are less compelling than the reasons to do one for the 3.4L 90 degree V6 line.

Evinrude's highest output models, the 250 HO and the 300 needed to compete with Yamaha's 4.2L V6 250 SHO and 300 models. With the Yamaha 4.2L V6 line's 24 percent greater displacement than the Evinrude 3.4L V6 line and it's use of variable valve timing, Yamaha had a "power curve to weight" ratio that was able to match or maybe even beat the 3.4L 2-stroke's ratio all while having 3-Star emissions compliance versus the 3.4L's 2-Star compliance.

But going to the 4.2L while keeping the weight down as much as possible required Yamaha to do some unconventional things like making a sleeveless cylinder design and using carbon fiber materials for the cowling all of which makes it more expensive to manufacture and thus requires a higher price in the market. I think that the higher cost, much larger size of the Yamaha (can't fit on 26 inch centers) and need to get some 3-Star compliance for the 250 HO and 300 presented an opportunity for Evinrude to make the large G2 that does not necessarily exist for the 2.6L 60 degree V6s in Evinrude's line up.

As compared to the 2.6L V6 line, none of the 4-stroke makers have a motor with more than about 20 percent greater displacement (20 percent or more is needed to get a 2-stroke like power curve when you have the same number of cylinders). The motor with the largest displacement ratio is the Mercury 150 FourStroke at 15 percent and the effectiveness of that extra displacement is limited by a single overhead cam system and only 4 cylinders. The newer Yamaha products' displacement are a mere 7 percent greater. And while those products use a variable valve timing, that system can only do so much to help a 4-cylinder motor. It will never be better than having 6 cylinders that are firing at every revolution. Finally, at this level, there isn't a significant pricing gap like there was with respect to the 4.2L Yamahas.

So I just don't see the G2 technology moving the needle as much on the 60 degree V4 and V6 models as it does for the 3.4L models which is why the 3.4L models got the G2 makeover first.

If they did do a smaller G2, then it I think it would be a V4 (just cut off 2 cylinders) with 2.3L of displacement. It would probably have a HP range of 135 to 175. It probably would not have integrated power steering (don't really need on these motors). The V4 would reduce the height of the motor as compared to the V6 (although not as much as the bigger motors because the 60 degree motors are quite compact in their design). But the G2 design may not necessarily reduce the overall size of the motor because part of the exhaust system on the G2 is carried outside the cylinder banks which requires enlarging the cowlings somewhat to hide the exhaust system.

saumon posted 02-08-2015 09:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for saumon  Send Email to saumon     
quote:
jimh posted 02-07-2015 02:43 PM ET (US)

The Miami International Boat Show is nearly here, and with its predominant status as the biggest of boat shows, I expect that Evinrude will have their new Evinrude 74-degree V6 3.441-liter engines on display there for the first time.


They've already been presented at a few boat shows, starting at the beginning of the year, including St. Paul MN, Dallas TX, Providence RI and, on the canadian side, Vancouver BC, Toronto ON and Montreal QC. In Montreal, they were rigged on Alumacraft and Ranger boats, and on some pontoons.

elvis posted 02-08-2015 09:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Didn't see any at charleston, sc boat show Jan 25 weekend.
OMCguru posted 02-08-2015 04:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
I am interested to see if the G1 Evinrude model will continue to be sold in the 200hp to 300hp market segment after the existing inventory is depleted.

Some reports from the BRP representatives at the recent boat shows state that they will do away with them. If anyone gets to Miami, I ask they confirm this.

OMCguru posted 02-08-2015 04:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for OMCguru  Send Email to OMCguru     
I am interested to see if the G1 Evinrude model will continue to be sold in the 200hp to 300hp market segment after the existing inventory is depleted.

Some reports from the BRP representatives at the recent boat shows state that they will do away with them. If anyone gets to Miami, I ask they confirm this.

Peter posted 02-08-2015 07:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
If they follow what Yamaha has done, then the 200 to 300 HP G1 models may stick around for a while. Yamaha still offers the 3.3L V6 200 to 250 HP 4-stroke line despite now having the 4.2L 225 to 300 HP 4-stroke line. The 4.2L can be viewed as a deluxe model with all the "bells and whistles" as well as higher performance. I think the G2 is in the same deluxe category relative to the G1 and thus there is room for both the G1 and G2 models.
GSH posted 02-09-2015 07:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for GSH  Send Email to GSH     
Correct me if I remember wrong, but were not the 2-cylinder 40 to 60 HP and 3-cylinder 75 to 90 HP E-TEC outboards among the first E-TECs that originally came out?

Personally, I see this range (40 to 90 HP in-liners) to be a weak spot in the current E-TEC lineup. Even if all the nice features of the big G2 outboards would not make it to the smaller models, it would for sure give the Evinrude brand a big boost if new and clearly improved 2- and 3-cylinder models would hit the market.

So, if one takes one cylinder bank from the new G2 V6, would that be good for 130 HP? ;-)

Br, Seb

Peter posted 02-09-2015 08:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
What is the weakness of the 2 and 3 cylinder E-TECs? What would be needed to improve them?
GSH posted 02-10-2015 03:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for GSH  Send Email to GSH     
“What is the weakness of the 2 and 3 cylinder E-TECs? What would be needed to improve them?”

This is very relative, of course. And yes, if compared to the corresponding carb OMC 2-strokes, they are good motors, but the 40 to 100 HP outboards from other manufacturers have improved a lot in ten years.

Some points as I see them:

The 40 and 50 HP E-TECs are no longer light compared to the 4-strokes from other brands, the fuel consumption is not as good, and in test after test they lag a bit in top speed, most likely in part due to the fairly large lower unit (lots of drag).

The 60 HP has not been too common in our market, and there is talk of more tech problems on that model compared to the 40 and 50. If asked, even I would recommend a Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda or Mercury over the Evinrude, if it has to be a 60 HP.

The 75 HP and 90 HP 3-cylinder E-TECs are nice, but at least here they seem to sell mostly the 75 (partly because here that one is more often offered at a biggish discount). Also, some tests have pointed to the performance difference on some boats not being that big (E-TEC 75 HP vs. 90 HP). Again, in tests with other brands the fuel consumption is above that of the 4-strokes, and the E-TEC do not have any clear advantage on speed.

One can even say the V4 90HP H.O. E-TEC is a kind of confirmation from BRP that the 3-cylinder 90 HP E-TEC does not have the practical strength to match the de-tuned 4-stroke 90 an 100 HP outboards of other brands. Yes, I know many will disagree...

What I would hope for:

New 40 HP and 50 HP, 2-cylinder: weight down 10%, economy better 10 to 15%, a bit smaller lower unit for better speed.
New 60 HP and 70 HP, 3-cylinder: again, weight down 10%, economy better 10 to 15%, a bit more speed and the grunt to blow other 60 and 70 HP outboards up on the beach.
New somewhere from 80 to 100 HP, 3-cylinder (two models?): weight as current 3-cylinder would be ok, but better economy, better speed and very strong power trough full rpm range.

Also, if at all possible, a new clean rigging as on the big ones. And bump the E-TEC G1 90 HP H.O. V4 up to 100 HP, please.

tedious posted 02-10-2015 01:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Regarding the eTec 60, which I was considering to repower my 15:

1) it's not a 70. There were reports of an eTec 70 in the initial release of eTecs, but it never came to production, even though it was just a reprogram of the 60. My guess is that's because it overlapped with the eTec 75.

2) my understanding is that it has an actual mechanical switch or valve in the exhaust, changing the exhaust length depending on RPM and load. Seems like a complexity that other motors have managed to avoid.

Tim

seahorse posted 02-11-2015 06:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    
quote:
Regarding the eTec 60, which I was considering to repower my 15:

2) my understanding is that it has an actual mechanical switch or valve in the exhaust, changing the exhaust length depending on RPM and load. Seems like a complexity that other motors have managed to avoid.


The E-TEC 60 hp does not have a variable exhaust valve in it. You may be confused from reading about the variable valve used 115 or the discontinued 130hp models.

The 60hp has a water injected exhaust tuning that is computer controlled but is a basic solenoid that the EMM activates on hard acceleration only. The water injected into the exhaust chamber lowers the temperature which in turn changes the pressure waves that affect the exhaust tuning. This is a simple system also employed in new G2 models.

jimh posted 02-11-2015 07:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The E-TEC 90-HP has a nice advantage over most of the four-cycle competitors: the cowling size. It still looks like a 90-HP, not like a 200-HP.
tedious posted 02-11-2015 10:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for tedious  Send Email to tedious     
Seahorse, thanks for clarifying how that works. I had recalled reading of a situation where that system failed, on an eTec 60, with a pretty significant impact on performance. However, although all active systems fail sometimes (which is why doing with such a system altogether would be better) I'm a lot more comfortable with a water valve than I'd be with a valve which is exposed to exhaust gases.

Now can you get them to jack up the injectors and create an eTec 70:-)?

Tim

Post New Topic  Post Reply
Hop to:


Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.