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Restore/Repair 1969 Nauset
|Author||Topic: Restore/Repair 1969 Nauset|
posted 07-05-2000 03:24 PM ET (US)
I purchased a 1969 Whaler a few years ago (for $500) that was registered as a Montauk but is actually a Nauset. It does have the original center console (in need of some wood repair), the windshield (good shape), and fixed pilot seat (pretty good shape). I would like to restore this, but do need some guidance. The hull on the port side is warped and does flex when pushed. When looking at the side, it has a wavy appearance to it. Any thoughts on repairing this area? I would also like to find a source for replacement decals. Outside of spider cracks above the waterline, nothing appears out of the ordinary. There were some patches on the other side, which weren't done too well (even some fiberglass patching over bottom paint!). Does anyone have any idea of the cost of an Imron/Awlgrip paint job on a 16? Lots of questions and thanks for any input!
posted 07-07-2000 05:01 PM ET (US)
bhart70 I just finished reestoring a 1970 17 ft hull. It was delaminated along one side about 1 1/2 ft by 4 ft. This sounds like your problem. Here is how I fixed it. Drill a few 5/16 test holes though the laminate (about 1/4 deep) around the suspect area to determine the extent of the delamination. I determined if the spot where I drilled the holes was delaminated by using a large (3 oz.) veterinarians syringe without needle to inject air into the hull between the laminate and the foam core. If it it is delaminated you can easily push the plunger and hear the air going into the void area. If it is not delaminated you depress the plunger only with difficulty. Hold it tight so air doesn't escape back through the hole where you have inserted the syringe. I suspected the hulls had some water in between them so I pulled a vacuum (30 lbs) on the hull to remove the moisture. You can rent a vacuum pump. Once I had the moisture out, I drilled additional holes six to eight inches apart in pegboard pattern throughout the delaminated area and injected West System epoxy thickened with high density adhesive filler to the consistency of catsup into the delaminated area. Use the big disposable syringes to inject it in every other hole until it oozes out of adjacent holes. That way you know you have the entire delaminated area covered internally with the mixture. I used the extra slow hardner because I wanted to make sure the mixture flowed in all the delaminated nooks and crannies before it set up. My job took about a quart of thickened epoxy. Mix it in small quantities ( about 6 oz.), though, so it doesn't set up in the pot. If the surface is horizontal you can "clamp" it down with weights. Use sand bags or forty pound bags of potting soil to make sure the delaminated skin makes contact with with the epoxy and adheres the skin to the core. If the surface is vertical as mine was you have to be a little more creative in clamping the material. I solved the problem by using six or seven ratchet-type tie-down straps and a bridge that I built from 1 by 2 and 2 by 4 lumber to clamp the delaminated side to the core. Here is how to build the bridge: cut four-inch lengths of 2by4 for spacers. Nail them on end at 5-6 inch intervals to the 1 by 2. Use a 1 by 2 as long as you need to span the dalaminated area. Put the straps around the hull; if they are not long enough you may have to "extend" them with a lenght of rope between the two hooks. Put the bridge between the straps and the hull with the 2 by 4 spacers against the hull. Straps should be between every other spacer, that way one strap puts pressure on two spacers and gives you even pressure on the delaminated area. Put some vinyl (garbage bag material) between the 2 by 4 spacers and the hull so you won't glue the spacers to the hull. Tighten the ratchets until just a little more epoxy oozes out of the holes but not so tight that you starve the area you are trying to re-laminate. Let it set up over night and you are home free. The relaminated area of my hull sounds just as solid as the original hull and there is no movement in the skin that was delaminated whatsoever. Of course you will have to fair and refinish the portion of the hull where you did the work. My project took three evenings after work. You might want to refer to the West System manual available at West Marine stores for the basic technique. However,it won't tell you how to be creative in removing moisture or in clamping under difficult circumstances. good luck JimU
posted 07-07-2000 05:12 PM ET (US)
bhart70--A little more--the spider cracks above the waterline on the side where you see the wavy skin is a pretty sure sign of delamination. The cracks are probably the result of the skin flexing because it was separated from the core, the original cause of the separation may have been an impact or other mishap. You can get decals from whaler dealer. Cheers. JimU.
posted 07-07-2000 11:13 PM ET (US)
1 atmosphere at sea level is 14.7 PSI, so
it's a bit difficult to pull a 30 PSI
vacuum on earth. Maybe it was 30 inches of
But pulling a vacuum is neat way to get water
I'm curious, how long did you leave the
posted 07-08-2000 09:08 AM ET (US)
Thanks guys for all of your input re: hull repair. I know the Whaler dealers have decals, but I came across a company that makes replica decals that were a heck of a lot cheaper (and still looked good) somewhere and managed to lose the name and number. Now I have to get busy! It's hard not to get dicouraged. But, all I have to do is go look at the pictures of all those restored oldies and it gives me hope.
posted 07-08-2000 01:05 PM ET (US)
I would sure like to know where to get those decals for cheap. What is the price at the dealers?
posted 07-08-2000 03:50 PM ET (US)
Welcome to the forum.
I am interested on the vacuum water extraction method would you be kind enough to elaborate on the set up.
I called 6 rental outfits none carried vacuum pumps in our area -- do you need to get one from some type of specialty rental operation?
Grangers carries them but really don't want to purchase one! What size was the pump?
Thanks and regards,
posted 07-11-2000 01:04 PM ET (US)
bhart70:A friend in the air conditioning repair business used his vacuum pump to help me with my project. You might try looking for a rental unit in the compressors section of the yellow pages. Triblet is right inches not psi. If you can't find a vacuum pump at a reasonable rate, here are some alternatives. 1. buy a vacuum generator. Granger carries the Thomas brand priced from $55-$125. A vacuum generator is a device that converts compressed air from an air compressor to a vacuum. 2. Go to a agricultural tire dealer and see if you can find a tube evacuator. It's a device that you attach to an inner tube and to an air compressor hose to evacuate the air and water from large off-road inner tubes (very often these large OTR tires are filled with water and air pressure to add weight to the equipment). It works on the principle of a jet pump. For these two options you will have to drill and tap the outside skin of your boat (in the delaminated area) so you can temporarily install a standard 1/4 inch air fitting to attach the line as I did. (Unless you can find a vacuum cup to attach to the line.) Granger has vacuum cups. You will also need to drill a hole or two at the other end of the delaminated area otherwise you will be pulling a vacuum on a sealed system (assuming no cracks or holes otherwise are present in the delaminated area) and you won't be able to evacuate the water. 3. Do it the other way. Rather than pulling a vacuum use air pressure to blow the water out. You may be able to do it with an air gun attachment to a standard air compressor line. Or you may want to drill and tap as in above. Either way you will need an input (or vacuum)hole and an exhaust hole. Keep the pressure low and simply blow the water out. If you choose to blow the air out make sure the compressor tank has no water in it and the compressor is blowing dry air because you obviously don't want to blow water into the hull! You can exhaust any collected water by simply blowing air until you don't see and water vapor coming from the air hose. If you have trouble visualizing the suction cup and vacuum technique go to a windshield repair shop where they repair chipped winshields. It's a two step process. The first step is to pull a vacuum on the chipped spot to remove water. Once done they reverse the pressure and inject epoxy into the damaged area. Ask the friendly repair person to show you how it's done. In my project we left the vacuum pump on for a couple of hours. Hope one of these works for you. Cheers JIM.
posted 07-11-2000 01:08 PM ET (US)
bigz; see my reply to bhart70. Cheers. JIM
posted 07-12-2000 06:15 AM ET (US)
Thank you for the information Jim.
Actually all we have is slightly saturated foam --- foam has not turned to mush --- it was caused by a poorly designed (BW) stern sump drain which corroded! This isn't used except for extended storage on our 27. It wasn't caught by the surveyor or by the firm in Florida who did a bottom paint re-coat this spring.
As it turns out we have access through my wife's firm for a large vacuum pump with proper suction tubing and cups --- will try it this Fall --- thankfully the foam didn't absorb much but what it did migrated to the keel area about 8" down from the drain --- we used a Sears shop vac and alcohol which actually pulled quit a bit out. Then installed a bronze through hull with a mushroom head (outer) and a flange nut (inter) sealed with 4200 -3M which will be easy to take a part and try the vacuum method. Needed a 4.5 inch long pipe shank which wasn't easy to find in stock actually it was a 5.75 and cut it down. Used a ss 1" rubber drain plug to seal.
posted 07-12-2000 01:01 PM ET (US)
Eric, call Magic Brush in Deland, Florida @(904) 736-1142 for a quote on BW decals. They sent me a pair (right and left) of the black "Outrage 18'" hull names last fall for $15, including postage. I understand they can do the entire BW line.
posted 07-21-2000 08:52 AM ET (US)
The vacuum worked -- used a 1/2hp 5.6 cubic foot per minute industrial unit with rubber stoppers and a glass lab beaker (rube goldberg set up). Initially pulled about 2 quarts out of the foam and probably vaporized another quart over a 2-1/2 hour period --- I have ordered a suction cup from Grainger and will use a spare water/air separator from our compressor and try again.
Appreciate the idea --- thanks Tom
posted 07-21-2000 09:32 AM ET (US)
Jim and bigz,
Could you elaborate on the concept of the two holes? A vacuum hole and an output hole?
I am not visualizing how this works. I would think the vacuum hole would pull the water toward it, and having a second hole would let in air, spoiling the vacuum. What am I missing here?
posted 07-21-2000 10:29 AM ET (US)
What JimU was saying ---if you have to use one of the alternative methods other than a straight vacuum you need output and input holes.
Chuckle-- the 3 mechanics and owner of our marina all come over watching it suck water, at least initially like all get out, they were absolutely amazed!
I do have some photos being developed up the initial "rube goldburg" set up sucking water --- the new system using a suction cup and the water separator will be a tad more sophisticated and hopefully pull liquid instead of vaporizing it at this stage -- still plenty in the foam I'm afraid ---
My fiberglass man was also amazed --- he said pull as much as possible then he would glass in a bronze through hull with no slop. This should have been the original design. You see the length needed is 3-7/8" plus by 1-1/4 OD even the brass tube BW used was a special size (this rotted through midway up the shaft). I was able to locate a 1" ID 1-1/4" OD 6" long bronze mushroom head threaded fitting, just hack sawed it so the inter flange nut would be close to flush in the sump after tightening down.
posted 07-21-2000 12:34 PM ET (US)
Tom, I'm nmot sure what you mean by a "through hull" can you describe what it is and what it does? JimU
posted 07-21-2000 01:25 PM ET (US)
Sorry Jim -- a through hull fitting drains the boat or in the case of the fish lockers are used to fill them with fresh sea water as you are moving and then channeling the flow to the bilge pump, sort of like a re-circulating bait tank. On the 27 there are 5 below the waterline ( 5 above the waterline) 2 drains, 2 fish locker fillers, plus one for the sea wash down pump intake with a bronze strainer.
The one in question was installed by BW for the sole purpose of using it for long term dry land storage (winter time) so a bilge pump wouldn't be needed. It is in the deepest part of the stern well where the main bilge pump is located (absolute bitch to get to from the above engine well round inspection hatch). The hull thickness (sandwich-- inter to outer) just off the keel at that point is about 3.75" ( the outer hull glass lamination thickness is almost an inch of that!). BW had used a special 1-1/4"x 3-7/8" flared thin wall brass tube with a plastic garboard drain inserted in it and its flange screwed down to the inter sump base it had a threaded screw in plug --- what happened over time since FL boats that size spend most of their life in the water --- the water equalized in the tube due to trapped air above and at that point over years corroded the brass tube allowing water to seep into the inter foam core ---
Awfully windy but I hope you got the picture -- Tom
posted 07-21-2000 01:30 PM ET (US)
Tom: I continue to be confused about this water in foam situation. Whaler has always insisted the hull contains closed cell foam and can't absorb water. You seem to be saying something else.
1. How did you determine the hull had water in it? Was there hull delamination? I assume your boat is in the water & I think this would have been hard to find.
2. Do you think the closed cell foam actually is holding the water, or is it between hull & foam, in a delamination area.
3. Should we all be checking these sump drain tubes for problems. The ones in mine
Thanks for any light you can shed on this continuing issue of water in foam in the older hulls, and drain tube problems.
posted 07-21-2000 03:55 PM ET (US)
1. the boat is high and dry now, we hauled her a week or so after we got back, after 1100 miles figured a little TLC was in order. I went over the hull after prep with new bottom paint since most of what had been applied in FL March had come off. As I proceeded aft noticed the rear drain tube (about 8" off the keel and 10" forward of the transom) had the flare broken and it was dripping! Upon close inspection (put my finger up it) the tube had disintegrated half way up -- got up in the motor well took all the round inspection covers off looked down in the bilge sump, there was a plastic garboard drain fitting screwed in with plug over the tube --- removed it completely --- then took a screw driver and pushed what remained of the brass tube up into the sump -- (can take a photo of it if you like)--- the plastic garboard drain insert is the type Garlick (sp?) makes it has a round flange 3 screw holes and a short drain tube about 2" it is threaded to receive a 1" plug --- this was inserted in the 1-1/4" brass flanged tube and then sealed and screwed down in the sump (the area was molded for this contraption so it is BW's, the manual also refers to these two drains the other is in the cuddy bilge and the use).
An aside --- two fiberglass pros said about the same thing don't worry about the water ain't going to hurt anything, just get a new fitting sealed in tight --- Well ain't my nature --- read above what one said after he saw the vacuum set up --- I will follow his advice and try to remove as much as possible but by no later than this Thursday she goes back in the water with a fiberglass in place heavy bronze fitting!
This occurred about where the plastic tube ended in the surrounding brass one, my engineer wife said simple --- air would be trapped up say in the plastic end and the water level equalized about where the corrosion took place (note the forward one in the cuddy bilge had been replaced at some time with a bronze mushroom end one a pipe cap screwed on --- also a knee jerk fix instead of trimming the threaded shaft so the flange nut would tighten down so it would be just a tad above flush then using a 1" brass or ss rubber drain plug!
Since these are in locations not easily accessed and there use is limited --- BW should have at least used bronze fittings! "god" sure hope I don't have to replace the bilge pump in the stern anytime soon --- ugh what a job that will be --- the best you can do is work with one arm stretched fully out and then it is by feel only.
2. The foam is holding the water, and as you know it was so called close cell polyurethane foam in '87!
3. Our surveyor even missed this situation when he had her short hauled for a hull inspection, these darn thin wall tubes used in both hulls and transom drains are a major source of water infiltration aside from gouges or scrapes through to the laminate --- I learned a lesson, and the fish locker ones which by the way are still solid will be replaced with bronze this Fall, as will a refit of the forward bilge one I described. I also will be replacing the motor well ones with plastic ---
I checked them thoroughly on the 13 we just bought --- he he they were fine --- then again the boat was always trailered never left standing months on end in the water.
Yes by all means keep an eye on them --- even the motor well ones can develop cracks and allow seepage into the plywood transom --- I have seen that not just on Whales ---
Wouldn't say just older hulls either Larry it can happen on current boats as well !
posted 07-25-2000 06:29 AM ET (US)
Well Larry did the above answer your questions and dispel the myth about foam's moisture absorption ability --??? Tom
posted 07-25-2000 01:41 PM ET (US)
Yes, Tom, I am sorry to hear that Whaler's closed cell foam is not as they say, and that it can, indeed, hold water. I feel that I've been "had" a little on this one! I am surprised that they have been misleading their customers for so many years, saying this potential problem with Whalers doesn't exist. If it wasn't coming from someone like you, I wouldn't have believed it.
posted 07-25-2000 02:42 PM ET (US)
Larry what is a little sad since all that was necessary at least with the below waterline fittings was to have sealed that area between the inter and outer skins with an epoxy insert so if by chance the fitting failed nothing could enter the core material --- technically Larry I think the water doesn't penetrate the foam cells but the voids around the cells of polyurethane "closed" cell foam --- the original foam used by Whaler on the other hand back in the early days would actually turn into mush after a prolonged soaking ---
Now this doesn't mean you'll sink --- heh heh --- just that the foam will loose some of it's inherent buoyancy --- and there is always the potential for internal delimitation which effects the integrate of the boat --- think there were a few post on mushy or soft spots on the decks earlier on the forum -- and there is a current one on where a keel section is gouged down to the glass with water dripping out and the foam damp --- this thread by JimU started with it as part of his problem and that's how it got on to vacuum pumps for extraction ---
If you talk to enough older surveyors and fiberglass folks they will warn you straight away on the Whale and its core problems! Tell you to make sure to take care of any potential crack or gouge and fitting which might effect the core allowing water to penetrate --- easy to get in but a real bitch to get it out if you ever really can ---
Keep on smiling --- they in one sense didn't lie yeah know ---- just sort of skirted the truth --- Tom
posted 07-25-2000 02:51 PM ET (US)
Oops it's my old age again --- meant "delaminating" not "delimitation"
Oh and Larry what is really really sad --- blast it (could use other verbage but this is a family forum) --- our 27 is high and dry and has been since a week after we got back --- and it don't look like my Thursday deadline is in the cards either had a bitch of a time finding a suction cup for the vacuum pump do you believe that --- it will be here tomorrow -- float-less Tom
posted 03-28-2001 12:54 PM ET (US)
Wow, This is an amazing post! Thought I would bring it to the top for others...I happen to be dealing with a version of this problem and will probably opt for either a pull or push method around the main drain tube in the stern...
|Gene in NC||
posted 09-04-2006 11:04 AM ET (US)
Bump. Been looking for this kind of info for a long time. Too valuable to lie in the archives.
posted 11-03-2006 11:01 PM ET (US)
I recently purchased a 1960 13' Whaler that was pretty rough looking. I just got it weighed on calibrated scales and it came in at a whopping 600 pounds. Is it worth trying to dry out? It's hard to believe there's room in the hull to hold that much water. Any suggestions?
posted 11-04-2006 01:29 PM ET (US)
Tom Clark did an experiment with an older 13 foot Whaler and in the end the boat ended up weighing 1060 pounds. Your boat only weighs half that, but it will most likely take years to dry out.
Here is the link to one of the best articles ever done on Whaler weight gain.
Get yourself a cup of coffee and about an hour to read through this three part post. It is very relevent to your situtation.
You may also find this article in Cetecea applicable to your situtation as well.
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