posted 07-07-2000 11:13 PM ET (US)            

But pulling a vacuum is neat way to get water
out of the foam. Not only will it suck out
any loose water, that last remaining bit
of H2O will turn to water vapor at the low
pressure.

I'm curious, how long did you leave the
vacuum on?

posted 07-08-2000 03:50 PM ET (US)         

Welcome to the forum.

I am interested on the vacuum water extraction method would you be kind enough to elaborate on the set up.

I called 6 rental outfits none carried vacuum pumps in our area -- do you need to get one from some type of specialty rental operation?

Grangers carries them but really don't want to purchase one! What size was the pump?

Thanks and regards,

posted 07-12-2000 06:15 AM ET (US)         

Actually all we have is slightly saturated foam --- foam has not turned to mush --- it was caused by a poorly designed (BW) stern sump drain which corroded! This isn't used except for extended storage on our 27. It wasn't caught by the surveyor or by the firm in Florida who did a bottom paint re-coat this spring.

As it turns out we have access through my wife's firm for a large vacuum pump with proper suction tubing and cups --- will try it this Fall --- thankfully the foam didn't absorb much but what it did migrated to the keel area about 8" down from the drain --- we used a Sears shop vac and alcohol which actually pulled quit a bit out. Then installed a bronze through hull with a mushroom head (outer) and a flange nut (inter) sealed with 4200 -3M which will be easy to take a part and try the vacuum method. Needed a 4.5 inch long pipe shank which wasn't easy to find in stock actually it was a 5.75 and cut it down. Used a ss 1" rubber drain plug to seal.

Again thanks,

posted 07-21-2000 08:52 AM ET (US)         

The vacuum worked -- used a 1/2hp 5.6 cubic foot per minute industrial unit with rubber stoppers and a glass lab beaker (rube goldberg set up). Initially pulled about 2 quarts out of the foam and probably vaporized another quart over a 2-1/2 hour period --- I have ordered a suction cup from Grainger and will use a spare water/air separator from our compressor and try again.
That should do the trick -- after a while all you start to get is vapor yet there is still liquid present --- reason I guess is the suction tube is high in the hull -- liquid accumulates at the stopper/tube base(not like the initial pull out, where there was lots to pull) and it is vaporized -- with a suction cup on the hull liquid will flow into to it instead of having to over come "an uphill climb"!

posted 07-21-2000 09:32 AM ET (US)            

Could you elaborate on the concept of the two holes? A vacuum hole and an output hole?

I am not visualizing how this works. I would think the vacuum hole would pull the water toward it, and having a second hole would let in air, spoiling the vacuum. What am I missing here?

posted 07-21-2000 10:29 AM ET (US)         

What JimU was saying ---if you have to use one of the alternative methods other than a straight vacuum you need output and input holes.

With the vacuum pump method you can only have one hole. If as in my case it was a through hull. I had to use a rubber stopper in the inside drain hole and pull vacuum from the outside.

Chuckle-- the 3 mechanics and owner of our marina all come over watching it suck water, at least initially like all get out, they were absolutely amazed!

I do have some photos being developed up the initial "rube goldburg" set up sucking water --- the new system using a suction cup and the water separator will be a tad more sophisticated and hopefully pull liquid instead of vaporizing it at this stage -- still plenty in the foam I'm afraid ---

My fiberglass man was also amazed --- he said pull as much as possible then he would glass in a bronze through hull with no slop. This should have been the original design. You see the length needed is 3-7/8" plus by 1-1/4 OD even the brass tube BW used was a special size (this rotted through midway up the shaft). I was able to locate a 1" ID 1-1/4" OD 6" long bronze mushroom head threaded fitting, just hack sawed it so the inter flange nut would be close to flush in the sump after tightening down.

posted 07-21-2000 01:25 PM ET (US)         

The one in question was installed by BW for the sole purpose of using it for long term dry land storage (winter time) so a bilge pump wouldn't be needed. It is in the deepest part of the stern well where the main bilge pump is located (absolute bitch to get to from the above engine well round inspection hatch). The hull thickness (sandwich-- inter to outer) just off the keel at that point is about 3.75" ( the outer hull glass lamination thickness is almost an inch of that!). BW had used a special 1-1/4"x 3-7/8" flared thin wall brass tube with a plastic garboard drain inserted in it and its flange screwed down to the inter sump base it had a threaded screw in plug --- what happened over time since FL boats that size spend most of their life in the water --- the water equalized in the tube due to trapped air above and at that point over years corroded the brass tube allowing water to seep into the inter foam core ---

posted 07-21-2000 01:30 PM ET (US)         

1. How did you determine the hull had water in it? Was there hull delamination? I assume your boat is in the water & I think this would have been hard to find.

2. Do you think the closed cell foam actually is holding the water, or is it between hull & foam, in a delamination area.

3. Should we all be checking these sump drain tubes for problems. The ones in mine
all take the standard 1" plug. Why do you think Whaler had a bad design here? What might have caused the fitting to corrode.

posted 07-21-2000 03:55 PM ET (US)         

1. the boat is high and dry now, we hauled her a week or so after we got back, after 1100 miles figured a little TLC was in order. I went over the hull after prep with new bottom paint since most of what had been applied in FL March had come off. As I proceeded aft noticed the rear drain tube (about 8" off the keel and 10" forward of the transom) had the flare broken and it was dripping! Upon close inspection (put my finger up it) the tube had disintegrated half way up -- got up in the motor well took all the round inspection covers off looked down in the bilge sump, there was a plastic garboard drain fitting screwed in with plug over the tube --- removed it completely --- then took a screw driver and pushed what remained of the brass tube up into the sump -- (can take a photo of it if you like)--- the plastic garboard drain insert is the type Garlick (sp?) makes it has a round flange 3 screw holes and a short drain tube about 2" it is threaded to receive a 1" plug --- this was inserted in the 1-1/4" brass flanged tube and then sealed and screwed down in the sump (the area was molded for this contraption so it is BW's, the manual also refers to these two drains the other is in the cuddy bilge and the use).
Thought get another brass tube --- wrong the tube was close to 4" the standard one end flanged stock tubes are just 3" -- during this time the open hole was still dipping water nice and steady--- poked around some more the lower foam was like a sponge press on it and out gushed water (hadn't turned to mush yet) -- oh no what a headache this is going to be (note there is no delaminating the foam is still attached solidly to the hull and inter skin) --- sure enough it has been --- tried a Sears vac limited success, compressed air no success, denatured alcohol would pull more out --- then the vacuum pump which looks like it will do the trick.

An aside --- two fiberglass pros said about the same thing don't worry about the water ain't going to hurt anything, just get a new fitting sealed in tight --- Well ain't my nature --- read above what one said after he saw the vacuum set up --- I will follow his advice and try to remove as much as possible but by no later than this Thursday she goes back in the water with a fiberglass in place heavy bronze fitting!

This occurred about where the plastic tube ended in the surrounding brass one, my engineer wife said simple --- air would be trapped up say in the plastic end and the water level equalized about where the corrosion took place (note the forward one in the cuddy bilge had been replaced at some time with a bronze mushroom end one a pipe cap screwed on --- also a knee jerk fix instead of trimming the threaded shaft so the flange nut would tighten down so it would be just a tad above flush then using a 1" brass or ss rubber drain plug!

Since these are in locations not easily accessed and there use is limited --- BW should have at least used bronze fittings! "god" sure hope I don't have to replace the bilge pump in the stern anytime soon --- ugh what a job that will be --- the best you can do is work with one arm stretched fully out and then it is by feel only.

2. The foam is holding the water, and as you know it was so called close cell polyurethane foam in '87!

3. Our surveyor even missed this situation when he had her short hauled for a hull inspection, these darn thin wall tubes used in both hulls and transom drains are a major source of water infiltration aside from gouges or scrapes through to the laminate --- I learned a lesson, and the fish locker ones which by the way are still solid will be replaced with bronze this Fall, as will a refit of the forward bilge one I described. I also will be replacing the motor well ones with plastic ---

I checked them thoroughly on the 13 we just bought --- he he they were fine --- then again the boat was always trailered never left standing months on end in the water.

Yes by all means keep an eye on them --- even the motor well ones can develop cracks and allow seepage into the plywood transom --- I have seen that not just on Whales ---

Wouldn't say just older hulls either Larry it can happen on current boats as well !

posted 07-25-2000 02:42 PM ET (US)         

Now this doesn't mean you'll sink --- heh heh --- just that the foam will loose some of it's inherent buoyancy --- and there is always the potential for internal delimitation which effects the integrate of the boat --- think there were a few post on mushy or soft spots on the decks earlier on the forum -- and there is a current one on where a keel section is gouged down to the glass with water dripping out and the foam damp --- this thread by JimU started with it as part of his problem and that's how it got on to vacuum pumps for extraction ---

If you talk to enough older surveyors and fiberglass folks they will warn you straight away on the Whale and its core problems! Tell you to make sure to take care of any potential crack or gouge and fitting which might effect the core allowing water to penetrate --- easy to get in but a real bitch to get it out if you ever really can ---

posted 11-04-2006 01:29 PM ET (US)            

Tom Clark did an experiment with an older 13 foot Whaler and in the end the boat ended up weighing 1060 pounds. Your boat only weighs half that, but it will most likely take years to dry out.

Here is the link to one of the best articles ever done on Whaler weight gain.

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001747.html

Get yourself a cup of coffee and about an hour to read through this three part post. It is very relevent to your situtation.

You may also find this article in Cetecea applicable to your situtation as well.