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Author Topic:   Soft spot in the floor

joem posted 08-14-2001 12:47 PM ET (US)
I have discovered that I have a 2 by 2 soft spot in the floor of my 1966 sakonnet are their any suggestions for repair of the spot.
thanks
joem
LarrySherman posted 08-14-2001 04:13 PM ET (US)
Joe,
Can you describe the location more accurately please? Also, please provide more information on how "soft" it seems. You migh also use a rubber mallet to sound the area gently and describe the results.
Larry
Soho posted 08-14-2001 04:15 PM ET (US)
I have recently repaired some soft spot in my 67 Nauset by drilling numerous holes - about .25 inches wide - into the area and injecting healthy amounts of West system epoxy thickened with 403 filler ( I think I used 403. Put a plastic pag over it, dropped a board on and 200 pounds of cement to hold down ( dry cement that is, in bags, just happened to have them around.. as most people do I guess.. ) post repair seems to have worked although I have not had the vessel back in the water to field test durability of repair. On another occasion I cut the floor and effected a repair by replacing the foam and then epoxying the floor piece back in. This repair held up pretty well. The first method is much simpler to make. Let me know if you need more details. There are also numerous discussions of this in past threads.
Ciao,
Ron
joem posted 08-14-2001 10:22 PM ET (US)
The spot is right next to the center console right near the rivits. When I stepped on it I noticed the skin seemed to be detached from the core. I have checked the rest of the boat and althought the entire floor doesn't seem to be as hard as a brand new boat this seems to be the only soft spot. I have heard about the process of drilling and filling with epoxy but didn't know if that was the why to go about it.
Joe M
LarrySherman posted 08-14-2001 11:25 PM ET (US)
Joe, I have no practical sakonnet experience, so I am not sure where these rivits are (aren't they screws?), but if the penitrate the deck, then this would make sense.
I think Soho's repair idea is spot on, and should be very effective, with a minimal of fuss, and leave your boat cosmetically intact. I would do 2 holes, one on either side of the soft spot. Then I would connect up a low pressure air pump for a few days to one of the holes, and just gently blow low pressure air through one of the holes. This will give the foam and glass in the area a chance to dry out. then proceed as soho describes, forceing the epoxy and filler in one hole, and continuing until it comes out the other side. Follow the rest of his directions and you should have a good repair.
Watch out when you put the cement bags over the repair, as the epoxy squeeze out may cover your deck!
Larry
Bigshot posted 08-15-2001 09:44 AM ET (US)
Told ya they would respond Joem! Patience is a virtue:)
Soho posted 08-15-2001 01:23 PM ET (US)
Larry's idea of blowing some air through is a good one indeed. As I am refinishing my entire floor I was not concerned about the epoxy squish out really, but if you tape around the repair area ( and indeed over it / around the injection holes ) you can avoid some of the mess. It is obviously the epoxy saturation level under the floor that matters. Now, be forewarned that injecting the epoxy can be messy as you try to load up a syringe and inject before it all hardens up - anytime you get a batch of epoxy going run into issues of it cooking off quickly once it hits some level of critical mass. I had rubber gloves on and would inject a syringe full in, pull the plunger out, load it up again, inject etc. Suppose the obvious answer would be a larger syringe... but I did not have one handy, I not being a drug addict or doctor....
That is all for now... let me know if you need more explanation/details.
LarrySherman posted 08-15-2001 02:32 PM ET (US)
I use 206 Slow hardner, which gives me a very good pot life, as long as I don't mix too big a batch.
As for the syringes, I take my knife and cut the needles to just fit into the hole. I have found that you can suck up epoxy pretty weel thsi way. West has just come out a caulking tube applicator, whch would be better for applying really thick stuff. I would mix the epoxy to the consistancy of ketchup for this application.
joem posted 08-15-2001 04:46 PM ET (US)
thank you Larry and Soho for these great ideas how about a empty ketchup bottle it takes as much a 16 oz. at a time and is only .35 would it work??
LarrySherman posted 08-15-2001 05:41 PM ET (US)
Yes, it would, but filling would be messy. I'd use the syringes. I let the stuff kick off in them and take them apart and reuse them after I'm done.
tlynch posted 10-09-2001 12:30 AM ET (US)
Quick question -
Is this the same method that I would use to relaminate the floor to the foam if it had delaminated?
And any suggestions on blowing air through the holes? Should I use hot/warm air to dry out the area or would it wreck the foam or glass?
Thanks,
Todd
lhg posted 10-09-2001 01:54 PM ET (US)
I think BW should be contacted for advice on skin delaminations. It would be interesting to hear what THEIR preferred method of repair is. It's not that they don't make foam filled hulls anymore, such as a Montauk! I'm sure they would help.
Obviously, delaminated floors, with non-skid, present a more difficult problem than smooth areas, but I believe for structural delaminations, which would definitely weaken the integrity of the hull, this West idea of drilling a bunch of holes & injecting epoxy, is NOT the best way to do it. Rather I believe the delaminated part of the skin has to be removed & opened up, and glass matting re-built back up, including all the necessary foam replacement and overlapping bonding steps. With floors, I can see some merit to Soho's second approach of trying to re-install the glass grid, but some method of perimeter bonding would have to be accomplished, and seems difficult from what I know of BW's recommended procedures. Remember the hull skins have to act as a continuous, non-interrupted membrane.
Maybe major structural floor repairs can never be accomplished saving the non-skid grid, and this condition has to be accepted.
Perhaps Triblet's idea of using a Dry-Dek floor in the boat would have an application here, to cover up large, smooth surfaced repairs.
tlynch posted 10-16-2001 12:59 PM ET (US)
This is from BW. The pictures were really low quality so I am not including them. It looks like he is working on the inner wall of a Montauk 17.
Pumping Voids and Delaminations
1. Re tap void or delamination to determine size and shape. (Refer to
Figure 67 - [man tapping with mallet on side of boat!])
2. With a grease pencil mark a spot at the lower most section of the area
to be pumped. This is the hole you will be pumping the resin into. (Refer
to Figure 68)
3. Using a 1/8" drill bit drill a hole on the spot you just marked.
(Refer to Figure 69)
4. Using cabosil or dust, gently fill the hole you just drilled, do not
pack it in.(Refer to Figure 70)
5. Starting from the uppermost section of the area to be pumped lightly
tap with your hammer or finger moving down a little with each tap until the
cabosil or dust "Puffs" out of the bottom hole. This is where your top hole
will be drilled. (Refer to Figure71)
(Embedded image moved to file: pic26500.pcx) (Embedded image moved to
file: pic15724.pcx)
Figure 67 Figure 68
(Embedded image moved to file: pic26962.pcx) (Embedded image moved to
file: pic05705.pcx)
Figure 69 Figure 70
(Embedded image moved to file: pic28145.pcx)
Figure 71

Pumping Voids and Delaminations Continued

6. Drill the top hole with your 1/8" bit this is the hole that will allow
air to escape or vent out while you are pumping. Fill both holes with
cabosil or dust and again with your finger tap lightly in the center, make
sure both holes "Puff" the cabosil out this is to verify that the holes are
connected by the void or delamination. (This is a very important step, if
both holes are not connected and air cannot vent out it will build up
pressure while pumping and further separate the glass from the foam or the
wood). (Refer to Figure 72 and Figure 73)
7. Tape off under both of your holes forming a cup shape with your tape.
This is to catch any resin that will flow from the holes and will save
cleanup time. (Refer to Figure74)

8. Mix your resin for pumping (Refer to Mixing Reference Chart). Use
cold resin only unless your team leader or supervisor directs you to use
hot resin).
(Embedded image moved to file: pic23281.pcx) (Embedded image moved to
file: pic09961.pcx)
Figure 72 Figure 73
(Embedded image moved to file: pic00491.pcx)
Figure 74
Pumping Voids and Delaminations Continued
9. Remove the plastic tip from your pump gun and fill it through this
hole by pouring the resin from the cup. When the gun is full screw on the
tip. (Refer to Figure 75)
10. Begin pumping from the bottom hole squeezing the trigger slowly until
the resin starts to come out of the top hole. If the gun runs out of resin
before it reaches the top hole remove the gun from the hole and refill with
resin. When removing the gun to refill it do so quickly and plug the hole
with a rivet or piece of wood so that resin already in the void or
delamination does not flow out.
(Refer to Figure 76)
11. If resin is coming out of top-hole plug it with a rivet then remove
the pump gun and plug the bottom hole with a rivet. After the resin has
cured remove the rivets and patch the holes you drilled. (Refer to Figure77
)

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Author	Topic: Soft spot in the floor
joem	posted 08-14-2001 12:47 PM ET (US) I have discovered that I have a 2 by 2 soft spot in the floor of my 1966 sakonnet are their any suggestions for repair of the spot. thanks joem
LarrySherman	posted 08-14-2001 04:13 PM ET (US) Joe, Can you describe the location more accurately please? Also, please provide more information on how "soft" it seems. You migh also use a rubber mallet to sound the area gently and describe the results. Larry
Soho	posted 08-14-2001 04:15 PM ET (US) I have recently repaired some soft spot in my 67 Nauset by drilling numerous holes - about .25 inches wide - into the area and injecting healthy amounts of West system epoxy thickened with 403 filler ( I think I used 403. Put a plastic pag over it, dropped a board on and 200 pounds of cement to hold down ( dry cement that is, in bags, just happened to have them around.. as most people do I guess.. ) post repair seems to have worked although I have not had the vessel back in the water to field test durability of repair. On another occasion I cut the floor and effected a repair by replacing the foam and then epoxying the floor piece back in. This repair held up pretty well. The first method is much simpler to make. Let me know if you need more details. There are also numerous discussions of this in past threads. Ciao, Ron
joem	posted 08-14-2001 10:22 PM ET (US) The spot is right next to the center console right near the rivits. When I stepped on it I noticed the skin seemed to be detached from the core. I have checked the rest of the boat and althought the entire floor doesn't seem to be as hard as a brand new boat this seems to be the only soft spot. I have heard about the process of drilling and filling with epoxy but didn't know if that was the why to go about it. Joe M
LarrySherman	posted 08-14-2001 11:25 PM ET (US) Joe, I have no practical sakonnet experience, so I am not sure where these rivits are (aren't they screws?), but if the penitrate the deck, then this would make sense. I think Soho's repair idea is spot on, and should be very effective, with a minimal of fuss, and leave your boat cosmetically intact. I would do 2 holes, one on either side of the soft spot. Then I would connect up a low pressure air pump for a few days to one of the holes, and just gently blow low pressure air through one of the holes. This will give the foam and glass in the area a chance to dry out. then proceed as soho describes, forceing the epoxy and filler in one hole, and continuing until it comes out the other side. Follow the rest of his directions and you should have a good repair. Watch out when you put the cement bags over the repair, as the epoxy squeeze out may cover your deck! Larry
Bigshot	posted 08-15-2001 09:44 AM ET (US) Told ya they would respond Joem! Patience is a virtue:)
Soho	posted 08-15-2001 01:23 PM ET (US) Larry's idea of blowing some air through is a good one indeed. As I am refinishing my entire floor I was not concerned about the epoxy squish out really, but if you tape around the repair area ( and indeed over it / around the injection holes ) you can avoid some of the mess. It is obviously the epoxy saturation level under the floor that matters. Now, be forewarned that injecting the epoxy can be messy as you try to load up a syringe and inject before it all hardens up - anytime you get a batch of epoxy going run into issues of it cooking off quickly once it hits some level of critical mass. I had rubber gloves on and would inject a syringe full in, pull the plunger out, load it up again, inject etc. Suppose the obvious answer would be a larger syringe... but I did not have one handy, I not being a drug addict or doctor.... That is all for now... let me know if you need more explanation/details.
LarrySherman	posted 08-15-2001 02:32 PM ET (US) I use 206 Slow hardner, which gives me a very good pot life, as long as I don't mix too big a batch. As for the syringes, I take my knife and cut the needles to just fit into the hole. I have found that you can suck up epoxy pretty weel thsi way. West has just come out a caulking tube applicator, whch would be better for applying really thick stuff. I would mix the epoxy to the consistancy of ketchup for this application.
joem	posted 08-15-2001 04:46 PM ET (US) thank you Larry and Soho for these great ideas how about a empty ketchup bottle it takes as much a 16 oz. at a time and is only .35 would it work??
LarrySherman	posted 08-15-2001 05:41 PM ET (US) Yes, it would, but filling would be messy. I'd use the syringes. I let the stuff kick off in them and take them apart and reuse them after I'm done.
tlynch	posted 10-09-2001 12:30 AM ET (US) Quick question - Is this the same method that I would use to relaminate the floor to the foam if it had delaminated? And any suggestions on blowing air through the holes? Should I use hot/warm air to dry out the area or would it wreck the foam or glass? Thanks, Todd
lhg	posted 10-09-2001 01:54 PM ET (US) I think BW should be contacted for advice on skin delaminations. It would be interesting to hear what THEIR preferred method of repair is. It's not that they don't make foam filled hulls anymore, such as a Montauk! I'm sure they would help. Obviously, delaminated floors, with non-skid, present a more difficult problem than smooth areas, but I believe for structural delaminations, which would definitely weaken the integrity of the hull, this West idea of drilling a bunch of holes & injecting epoxy, is NOT the best way to do it. Rather I believe the delaminated part of the skin has to be removed & opened up, and glass matting re-built back up, including all the necessary foam replacement and overlapping bonding steps. With floors, I can see some merit to Soho's second approach of trying to re-install the glass grid, but some method of perimeter bonding would have to be accomplished, and seems difficult from what I know of BW's recommended procedures. Remember the hull skins have to act as a continuous, non-interrupted membrane. Maybe major structural floor repairs can never be accomplished saving the non-skid grid, and this condition has to be accepted. Perhaps Triblet's idea of using a Dry-Dek floor in the boat would have an application here, to cover up large, smooth surfaced repairs.
tlynch	posted 10-16-2001 12:59 PM ET (US) This is from BW. The pictures were really low quality so I am not including them. It looks like he is working on the inner wall of a Montauk 17. Pumping Voids and Delaminations 1. Re tap void or delamination to determine size and shape. (Refer to Figure 67 - [man tapping with mallet on side of boat!]) 2. With a grease pencil mark a spot at the lower most section of the area to be pumped. This is the hole you will be pumping the resin into. (Refer to Figure 68) 3. Using a 1/8" drill bit drill a hole on the spot you just marked. (Refer to Figure 69) 4. Using cabosil or dust, gently fill the hole you just drilled, do not pack it in.(Refer to Figure 70) 5. Starting from the uppermost section of the area to be pumped lightly tap with your hammer or finger moving down a little with each tap until the cabosil or dust "Puffs" out of the bottom hole. This is where your top hole will be drilled. (Refer to Figure71) (Embedded image moved to file: pic26500.pcx) (Embedded image moved to file: pic15724.pcx) Figure 67 Figure 68 (Embedded image moved to file: pic26962.pcx) (Embedded image moved to file: pic05705.pcx) Figure 69 Figure 70 (Embedded image moved to file: pic28145.pcx) Figure 71 Pumping Voids and Delaminations Continued 6. Drill the top hole with your 1/8" bit this is the hole that will allow air to escape or vent out while you are pumping. Fill both holes with cabosil or dust and again with your finger tap lightly in the center, make sure both holes "Puff" the cabosil out this is to verify that the holes are connected by the void or delamination. (This is a very important step, if both holes are not connected and air cannot vent out it will build up pressure while pumping and further separate the glass from the foam or the wood). (Refer to Figure 72 and Figure 73) 7. Tape off under both of your holes forming a cup shape with your tape. This is to catch any resin that will flow from the holes and will save cleanup time. (Refer to Figure74) 8. Mix your resin for pumping (Refer to Mixing Reference Chart). Use cold resin only unless your team leader or supervisor directs you to use hot resin). (Embedded image moved to file: pic23281.pcx) (Embedded image moved to file: pic09961.pcx) Figure 72 Figure 73 (Embedded image moved to file: pic00491.pcx) Figure 74 Pumping Voids and Delaminations Continued 9. Remove the plastic tip from your pump gun and fill it through this hole by pouring the resin from the cup. When the gun is full screw on the tip. (Refer to Figure 75) 10. Begin pumping from the bottom hole squeezing the trigger slowly until the resin starts to come out of the top hole. If the gun runs out of resin before it reaches the top hole remove the gun from the hole and refill with resin. When removing the gun to refill it do so quickly and plug the hole with a rivet or piece of wood so that resin already in the void or delamination does not flow out. (Refer to Figure 76) 11. If resin is coming out of top-hole plug it with a rivet then remove the pump gun and plug the bottom hole with a rivet. After the resin has cured remove the rivets and patch the holes you drilled. (Refer to Figure77 )