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Author Topic:   rivets???
david in boston posted 05-01-2002 09:31 PM ET (US)   Profile for david in boston   Send Email to david in boston  
I pulled off my old rub rail and now need to put one back on. where can I get the ss rivets? I need about 200 of them and they are $1.00 each at west marine. anyplace else??
acseatsri posted 05-01-2002 09:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for acseatsri  Send Email to acseatsri     
The new rub rails come with aluminum rivets. Use them.
Wild Turkey posted 05-01-2002 10:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for Wild Turkey  Send Email to Wild Turkey     
David:

Just a suggestion.... Soak your new rub rail in a tub of warm water right before installation. Believe me... it will make installation easier.

Also use aluminum rivets like acseatri suggested or ss screws.

Speaking from experience.....
Chris

acseatsri posted 05-01-2002 11:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for acseatsri  Send Email to acseatsri     
DON'T use screws, PERIOD! Use 3/16 rivets. Rivets hold on the entire circumference of the hole, and they have no sharp edges to cut the fiberglass and enlarge the hole with normal motion over time. A screw is holding on perhaps a 1/4 thread or so.

You'll also need a heat gun to curve it around the bow and about 3 or 4 bar clamps to hold while you drill and rivet. Make sure you don't get it too hot and melt it. It's pretty easy to do.
triblet posted 05-01-2002 11:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for triblet  Send Email to triblet     
http://www.mcmaster.com/ has them,
but not much cheaper than West even in
100 packs, at least for big ones (you didn't
say what size). But worth checking.

Chuck

Wild Turkey posted 05-02-2002 12:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for Wild Turkey  Send Email to Wild Turkey     
Sorry acseatsri... I too used aluminum rivets for my rub rail application. I was recommending stainless steel screws because of previous reading in the reference section of this website:
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/rubRail.html

Quote from reference section:
Do-It-Yourself Refit Installation

"The Boston Whaler supplied kit included pop-rivets, although you may want to opt for stainless steel screws, as they would make subsequent replacement easier by avoiding having to remove a zillion rivets."

I am sorry for suggesting this, as I assumed this information to be correct and helpful to "david in boston" if he wants to install a new rubrail.

If he should not "use screws, PERIOD!", then we should let jimh know so he can update is reference section.

Just trying to help out....maybe I won't in the future....
Chris

Wild Turkey posted 05-02-2002 12:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for Wild Turkey  Send Email to Wild Turkey     
Correction:
If he should not "use screws, PERIOD!", then we should let jimh know so he can update his reference section.

Also, in retrospect... I will keep trying to help out, because that's what this forum and it's members did for me when I needed help.

Chris

jimh posted 05-02-2002 01:18 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The idea of using screws was based on the observation by someone that the original was installed that way at the factory.

I would be interested to hear from others who make field repairs to their Whaler rub rails on this issue. Was the original rub rail installed with screws or rivets?

Apparently the repair kit is sent with rivets, so clearly the factory endorses that technique. I don't know what they say about using screws.

At the moment the rub rails on both my boats are in excellent condition, so I won't be making any first-hand repairs; I'll depend on reports from others.

--jimh

acseatsri posted 05-02-2002 02:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for acseatsri  Send Email to acseatsri     
Sorry if I was a little "over-zealous" with my reply. My background is in machining and fasteners, including screws and bolts, as well as aircraft interior parts which used lots of rivets. Some of the assemblies we worked on originally had screws in them- these were composite seat backs- and later were changed to rivets due to failures in the field. Not sure how similar composite graphite is to fiberglass, but my guess is not a lot of difference there.

Screws don't hold well in thin-wall materials, especially when subjected to stress. They tend to work loose and pull out. The sharp threads will enlarge the hole as well. One of the reasons airplanes use riveted construction.

jimp posted 05-02-2002 11:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimp  Send Email to jimp     
Wild Turkey -

Keep the thoughts coming. It was a good discussion. I didn't know all that stuff. I appreciate you and acseatsri bringing this out.

Thanks.

JimP

Moby posted 05-02-2002 12:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moby  Send Email to Moby     
I am replacing the rubrail on my '77 Montauk. Some of the old rivets had been pulled out (by what, I don't know). By the time I had all of the other rivets drilled out, some of the holes were larger than original. I have re-drilled all holes to be larger, filled with thickened West System, and sanded. I plan to use SS screws as mentioned in "Reference".

Another question about rivets: Some pop rivets will leave a hole through the center, won't they? If using rivets (non Whaler) this should be looked into, right?
My .02.

Tom W Clark posted 05-02-2002 12:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
If the question is where to buy stainless steel rivets (or any other piece of hardware) at a reasonable price then I would suggest, as one source, McMaster-Carr (mcmaster.com)

To view the pop rivet offerings of McMaster-Carr look here: http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/html/3069.html

The size you want is 3/16" diameter with a grip range of something like 1/4" - 3/8"

A type 304 stainless steel pop rivet in this size would cost 26˘

A type 316 stainless steel pop rivet would cost $1.26

An aluminum pop rivet would cost 6˘

Now the question of what type of fastener, screw or pop rivet is another matter. Either will work. The only type of fastener I have seen used with the Barbour rub rail on Whalers is the aluminum pop rivet.

There are several advantages to using this type of fastener:

It is inexpensive.

It is easy to install.

It is easy to remove if necessary. Pop rivets must be drilled out and aluminum is soft. I suspect you could make a real mess of your boat's gunwale if you had to drill out 200 stainless steel pop rivets!

Pan head sheet metal screws will work as well and be easy to remove but there are some disadvantages:

The size of the head can become an obstacle to installing the rub rail insert.

They may not grip as well.

They will cost more than aluminum pop rivets.

If you are installing a new rub rail, the kit will include the aluminum pop rivets so I don't see any good reason to go out and spend more money on other fasteners. I’d just use them.

lhg posted 05-02-2002 02:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
I also believe that aluminum pop-rivets are the preferred method of fastening. That is what I have always used.
acseatsri posted 05-02-2002 02:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for acseatsri  Send Email to acseatsri     
3/16 X 3/4 was what was shipped with my rubrail. The plastic is pretty thick that you're going thru. Better safe than sorry. As far as water intrusion, I would think it would be minimal. They're covered by the insert, and it's not like they're vertical where water could just run in.
david in boston posted 05-02-2002 03:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for david in boston  Send Email to david in boston     
I FOUND RIVETS!! I found a local company that makes stainless rivets and all kinds of other fasteners,
(see website: http://www.marsoncorp.com/StainSteelRivet.htm )

the cost was $60 for 500 rivets! thats about a penny apiece! vs. west marine at $1.00 each! what a massive rippoff!! and the people at marson were terrific. they even gave me an old industrial size rivet gun to do the job because the stainless rivets are so strong, they are nearly impossible to install using a regular handheld rivet gun. talk about great service. I needed 3/4 in rivets because I have to go thru the rubrail, the newport style deck insert and the hull. The rivets that I removed were aluminum, but they were pretty oxidized and some had cracked. The stainless rivets are really tough. I will be putting it all together this weekend. my center console is almost done getting a new custom grabrail from CMI in Hingham. they make all the rails for Whaler. and I will pick up the new rubral from Barbour plastics down in Brocton, also an OEM supplier for the classic whalers. its nice to have all the old whaler suppliers right near Boston even though the factory is long gone.

David

acseatsri posted 05-02-2002 04:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for acseatsri  Send Email to acseatsri     
That's about $.12 each, and you don't need all those. Use the aluminum. It's cheaper.
andygere posted 05-02-2002 04:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
When I worked in the snowboard industry years ago, we used stainless steel rivits to build the molds. They are very strong, and virtually impossible to install correctly with anything other than a pnuematic rivit gun. Even with that tool, we had to replace the jaws every few days. You will get a poor installation if the fastener is not completely snugged against both surfaces, and you won't be able to do this with a hand operated gun. Stainless rivets are also very hard to drill out. Aluminum rivits are just fine, and you can get them with blind heads if you are concerned with water intrusion. They are easy to install with a hand operated rivit gun, and provide more than enough strength for a rub rail. I used them to install a rub rail on my old 13 with a crumby pop rivit gun, and had no problems.
GAwhale posted 05-02-2002 04:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for GAwhale  Send Email to GAwhale     
I would like to point out that there is a world of differecne between a pop rivet and a rivet.

Airplanes use millions of rivets. They are usually aluminum. They must be shot with a rivet gun (kind of a hammer motion) and the back side must be bucked with a bar.

A pop rivet is known as a blind fastener. It is nonstructural.

Other blind fasteners that are structural are cherrymax and huckbolts.

I suspect you will find no rivets on a Boston Whaler, however you will find plenty on an aluminum jon boat.

GAwhale posted 05-02-2002 05:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for GAwhale  Send Email to GAwhale     
I just read Andy's post.

True, rivets can be squeezed with a pneumatic sqeezer.

Pop rivets can be pulled with a pneumatic puller.

david in boston posted 05-02-2002 05:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for david in boston  Send Email to david in boston     
I was thinking I needed the extra strength of the stainless rivets to hold the 350lb. deck insert to the whaler hull. its not just the rubrail. both the deck insert with the center console, bow rail, anchor and misc equipment are secured to the hull with only the rivets. The reason I am replacing the rivets is that the old aluminum rivets had failed and the deck/rubrail was separating from the hul. I dont want to go through this again, so I think I will go ahead and use the stainless. I drilled out 300 of them so I got the 500 box. I tried the large hand operated rivet gun (looks like a large chaincutter) and it works very easily. so not worried about that. David
pftate1 posted 05-02-2002 09:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for pftate1  Send Email to pftate1     
SS rivets are allot harder than aluminum. I would be afraid that ss would pull throu the fiberglass. Make sure that holes are just large enough to fit rivet in.
Paul T
Gep posted 05-02-2002 10:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for Gep  Send Email to Gep     
I don't understand. What does the back of the rivet hold onto? I had to use screws on my '59 because there wasn't much meat left there. I would have been riveting into foam and I figured it would have just pulled out oevr time. I used 2 1/2" stainless steel sheetrock screws. If one didn't seem hold I just screwed another one in right next to it. I didn't even have to predrill the receiver part. I did use alot of clamps though. My rubrail seem very solid.
Mike
jmp posted 05-02-2002 11:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for jmp  Send Email to jmp     
I am in the process of restoring a 22 Guardian. The original rub rail was held in place with aluminum pop rivets and 5200 adhesive. The new kit from Boston Whaler came with 5200 adhesive and aluminum self tapping screws. This is just for reference use only.

John

Flipper posted 05-03-2002 12:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for Flipper  Send Email to Flipper     
Since redoing the rubrail on my 15' ten years ago,I've replaced the last two feet of the track portion on my "most-used" tying side (starboard),with an off-cut from the new rail that I kept. When I did this, I did inject the old holes with West System and use stainless screws in the new "meat" I created.Very solid, but I also use 10" diameter teardrop-style bumpers now!
acseatsri posted 05-03-2002 12:53 AM ET (US)     Profile for acseatsri  Send Email to acseatsri     
Whether pop rivets or aircraft rivets, the holding concept is still the same- the backside is mushroomed so as not to pull through the hole.
pftate1 posted 05-03-2002 01:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for pftate1  Send Email to pftate1     
aircraft pop rivets have a locking ring on stem to lock it in place.
andygere posted 05-03-2002 11:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
I respectfully disagree with GAwhale on pop rivits being not structural. The method a mechanical fastener uses to join surfaces together in this application is irrelevant when considering the shear strength (what we are looking for when attatching a rub rail) of the joint. Shear strength of this type of joint is developed by creating a resistance to slipping between the joined surfaces. The resistance is equal to the clamping force times the coefficient of friction. Pop rivits can indeed develop enough clamping force to provide adequate sheer strength for this type of joint. The key variables are rivit spacing, rivit size, and appropriate hole size for the rivit. If the installation is done correctly, the fastener is never in direct shear, but it is a structural fastener.
pftate1 posted 05-03-2002 12:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for pftate1  Send Email to pftate1     
Aluminum pop rivets price wise and ease of use is the way to go. They are what Hughes Helicopter used to install canopies (bubble windows) on there 300 models. The only thing with a pull river it must be long enough and have a snug hole. Have seen to short rivets used it tooling and you couldn’t tell until they started popping out.
GAwhale posted 05-03-2002 07:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for GAwhale  Send Email to GAwhale     
Well argued point Andy.

I'm sorry to always go back to airplanes, but that is what I do for a living. On the airplanes I work on a pop rivet would never ever be a structural fastener.

One of my coworkers calls them gutter rivets. They would only be used to attach trim parts usually on the interior, or maybe nutplates.

F.Y.I.
Engineering hates to substitute any structural blind fastener for a rivet. Some of these rivets are in impossible places to buck. We are allowed to substitute a HI-Lock (kind of like a bolt and a nut) for a rivet.

pftate1 posted 05-03-2002 09:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for pftate1  Send Email to pftate1     
Dose the rub rail have anything to do with structural strength of a Whaler.
If not pop rivets will work just fine. Have seen them used allot by Boeing and Hughes.
Doesn’t hold the plane together but holds a lot of parts in the plane. Forgive the new guy just had to get my two cents worth in. Just retired after 35 years in aircraft.
andygere posted 05-03-2002 10:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
GAwhale,
I guess it's just a matter of context! I'm glad they are not using pop rivits to hold planes together....but I do have a tendency to look closely at the rivets around the door every time I get on one.

The biggest problem with pop rivits for light duty applications seems to be oversizing the hole. You should have to push the pop rivet pretty hard to slide it in, which will help ensure that it seats well and develops full clamping strength. This has been an interesting thread...

mark posted 05-03-2002 10:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for mark  Send Email to mark     
I just replaced my rub rail on my '87 18' OR. I obtained the kit through Twin Cities Marine and it contained Stainless rivets. The original rivets were aluminum. The stainless rivets worked just fine. As mentioned many times on this site, Twin Cities Marine has been very helpful in supplying whatever parts I need.
jimh posted 05-03-2002 11:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
By my reading of first-hand reports contained in this thread, the factory rub rail kit has been described as containing:
1. aluminum pop-rivet
2. stainless steel pop-rivets
3. aluminum sheet metal screws
I guess you can take your choice from the above!

csj posted 05-04-2002 09:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for csj  Send Email to csj     
Well friend's i just had a new rub rail installed on my 1989 22' revenge. The package from whaler came with rivets, and instructed me to drill "new" holes every 4-6 inches, as the original was done. The problem I have with this is if I now alternate from the original holes to allow the rivets to work I now have 300-400 holes behind my rubrail. So I went with ss screws, and no additional holes drilled.
Chip posted 05-05-2002 06:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chip  Send Email to Chip     
I just replaced the rubrail on my '72 Katama. When I pulled off the old one, the old rivets stayed in the hull, which would indicate that they are plenty strong. I drilled them out, filled the holes, made pencil marks so I wouldn't drill the new holes in the same place and used the aluminum rivets supplied with the B/W kit. Worked just fine. They aren't structural and since they are 6" apart, any strain is spread out over several rivets.
AERRON posted 09-15-2006 05:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for AERRON  Send Email to AERRON     
HAY, I FIX TRACTOR TRAILOR TRUCKS FOR A LIVING. DID YOU EVER LOOK AT THE NICELY SPACED ALUMINUM RIVITS HOLDING THEM TOGETHER.... THEY ARE CALLED BUCK RIVITS AND THEY ARE EASY TO INSTALL IF YOU HAVE AN AIR HAMMER WITH A 2000 TO 3000 BLOW PER MINUTE OR BPM CAPABILITY AND THE PROPER RIVIT TYPE AND SIZE FOR THE JOB. I GET ALL OF MY FASTENERS AND RIVITS THROUGH IMPERIAL. THEY HAVE A WEB SIGHT AT WWW.IMPERIALSUPPLIES.COM AND SUPPLY ALMOST EVERY FASTENER YOU CAN THINK OF FOR BOATS/PLANES/TRUCKS/TRAINS. I'M SURE YOU CAN GET WHAT YOU NEED THERE.

AERRON posted 09-15-2006 05:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for AERRON  Send Email to AERRON     
HAY, I FIX TRACTOR TRAILOR TRUCKS FOR A LIVING. DID YOU EVER LOOK AT THE NICELY SPACED ALUMINUM RIVITS HOLDING THEM TOGETHER.... THEY ARE CALLED BUCK RIVITS AND THEY ARE EASY TO INSTALL IF YOU HAVE AN AIR HAMMER WITH A 2000 TO 3000 BLOW PER MINUTE OR BPM CAPABILITY AND THE PROPER RIVIT TYPE AND SIZE FOR THE JOB. I GET ALL OF MY FASTENERS AND RIVITS THROUGH IMPERIAL. THEY HAVE A WEB SIGHT AT WWW.IMPERIALSUPPLIES.COM AND SUPPLY ALMOST EVERY FASTENER YOU CAN THINK OF FOR BOATS/PLANES/TRUCKS/TRAINS. I'M SURE YOU CAN GET WHAT YOU NEED THERE.
OH, BY THE WAY TO ALL OF YOU "FLOATERS" I TAKE MY FAMILY ON TWO CRUSES A YEAR AND EVEN THE BIG SHIPS USE THE SAME FASTENERS I USE IN MY BUISNESS SO JUST LOOK WHERE WE LOOK WHEN WE NEED THAT STUFF. THEY ARE ACTUALLY REASONABLY PRICED BUT BECAUSE LOTS OF RETAILERS AND SHOPS BREAK THEM INTO SMALL PACKS AND RESALE MARKUP ON THEM IS BETWEEN 40 AND 80% THEY GET THERE MONEY BACK TEN TIMES OVER BY BREAKING A PACKAGE THAT COSTS 20.00 DOLLARS PER THOUSAND INTO 10.00 DOLLAR PACKS OF 50 OR 100.

Bjornas posted 09-16-2006 03:09 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bjornas  Send Email to Bjornas     
When I was ordering my kit from twin cities Sue gave me all the options. I ended up going with the stainless screws. I doubt after epoxying the holes and predrilling they are going to shake loose. Also makes for easy repairs if needed.

The description is BW 8 X 1 1/2" PTH screws
They were 36$ for a pack of 90.

According to our conversation they are actual Boston Whaler parts for the rub rail.

Tom W Clark posted 09-16-2006 01:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Aluminum pop rivets (blind rivets) are what Whaler used to install the Barbour three piece rub rail. I prefer the pop rivets because they have a low profile head that allows wiring to be run through the rub rail insert. They are also more secure that screws, but harder to remove later.

There is not any reason on earth why a single aluminum 3/16" x 5/8" pop rivet should cost $1. A box of 100 should cost about $5, making them a nickel a piece.

Tom W Clark posted 09-16-2006 01:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Ah. I'm embarrassed to note that I have just replied to a four year old thread that was already beaten death and has been resurrected by AERRON who does not quite grasp what sort of hardware we were discussing here.

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