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Author Topic:   Winter project-hydraulic steering-help!

onlyawhaler posted 12-27-2002 10:47 PM ET (US)
The upper lakes are frozen here in Utah. I am going to replace the standard cable teleflex on my 88 18ft Outrage with hydraulic steering as a project this winter. I have read a few threads and recieved advice here on Shoreway Marine as a good place to buy this hardware. However, it appears SeaStar and Teleflex have merged?. No more running the lines and cutting and sealing to length. They are pre-sealed I gathered from the conversation I had with Shoreway and I need to specify the exact length of lines. Has anyone done this on a 18 outrage? Do I also lose the complete steering wheel assembly in this process? Can I still keep my Whaler steering wheel? Should I go tilt steering or stay fixed. ANY advice or experience would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Sterling
jimh posted 12-28-2002 12:05 AM ET (US)
The helm from a standard cable steering unit will not function as a helm for a hydraulic cylinder actuated steering unit. You must purchase the appropriate hydraulic pump helm unit.
Typically the steering wheel will fit the new helm, if it has the same size tapered shaft (most do).
The exact marketing difference between products labeled "Teleflex" and those labeled "SeaStar" is unknown to me. I think maybe the SeaStar line is targeted at smaller boats.
I would recommend Shoreway; their prices are far below other sources. I saved $100 on a $275 cylinder (i.e., it was $375 at West Marine and extra ordering charges, too).
Consider a side mount cylinder such as the HC5370. With this style of actuator, the lines do not move about the splash well. The lines connect to the cylinder which is fixed to the engine mount. Thus, you can locate the lines and ty-wrap them in place. The large transom of the 1988 18-OUTRAGE will accommodate this cylinder. You also reuse your drag link from the mechanical steering.
whalersman posted 12-28-2002 01:00 PM ET (US)
onlyawhaler,
There have been many threads on this as I have read most of them.
To make this short, the length of the Hydraulic hoses have been said to be 18' in length for the Outrage 18. You will need to buy a new Hydraulic Pump (Helm) and maybe the adapater to cover the larger hole in the console that the older style Helm required. You should be able to use your original Steering Wheel.
As far as front mounted or side mounted steering cylinders, as jimh points out above, I don't know for sure. Here is a link from continuouswave describing both systems.
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/standardTransomBracket.html
Maybe some people here can tell us more about their setup. Does anyone here have photos of the side mount steering system on a single engine setup?? How does it work for you??
Same goes for the center mount cylinder. Anyone?? Do the dragging hoses present any problems? Pros / Cons??
I would like to know myself as I will be adding the SeaStar Hydraulic steering someday.
Steve Leone posted 12-28-2002 03:40 PM ET (US)
I have a bunch of Seastar and Hyanautic stuff if you are interested. Used. Works. Cheap. Steve
doobee posted 01-01-2003 01:31 PM ET (US)
Teleflex, Seastar, Morse, Shields, and Sierra have all merged into one company. When buying new it is typically less expensive to buy the complete system, instead of the individual components.
Side mount cylinders are typically used on single engines less than 150HP. Do you have a swim platform on the right side of your boat? If so you may wind up climbing over the cylinder to get to the platform. Side mount is less expensive than front mount.
Front mount cylinders typically are used on motors over 150hp, twin engines, and installations where there is no room for a side mount. The front mount cylinder attaches to the tilt tube so i'm not sure why the hoses would be moving around the splashwell.
I would not recommend the new Teleflex Baystar system as I have heard that it is unreliable.
If you want an alternative to Teleflex hydraulics, check out a company called UFLEX at www.uflexusa.com. They offer a good system that is a little less expensive than teleflex. They also offer a cable steering system which is superior to teleflex.
Your steering wheel should fit on any of these systems. Once you see the UFLEX wheels, you may not want to keep yours.
jimh posted 01-01-2003 08:41 PM ET (US)
With regard to the cabling differences between side mount and front mount cylinders:
The front mount cylinder is the most commonly used installation. The hydraulic lines attach to the cylinder which then moves back and forth on a fixed shaft. The cylinder drags the steering arm of the motor around with it. Thus the cables have to have slack enough to permit them to move around the splash well and follow the cylinder. The splash well also must have sufficient clearance to allow the engine to tilt into it with the front mount cylinder attached. If you have mounted the engines on a bracket, or perhaps wish to in the future, check the clearance carefully; it may be that the front mount cylinder will not permit the engine to be tilted completely forward.
Thus with a front mount cylinder you have two more cables in the splash well, flopping around as the engine moves for steering or tilting.
In contrast, the side mount cylinder attaches to the tilt tube of the engine, a fixed location, and exerts its effort on the engine with a actuator rod via a drag link. This is exactly how the mechanical steering operates, too. The cables are not in the splash well, which cleans up the well a bit.
Side mount cylinders like the HC5370 are also used with dual engines and are rated for installations up to 600-horsepower according to Teleflex on their excellent website. A dual side mount installation generally means opposing the cylinders, and this requires mounting one of them to the port side of the port engine. Depending how the tilt tube is designed, this may create a problem that has to be solved, perhaps by reversing the tilt tube.
http://www.seastarsteering.com/OUTBOARD/oboard.htm?../OUTBOARD/SIDE_MOUNT/Side_Mnt.htm&1
The one difference in the front versus side mounting cylinders is the asymmetry of the force produced by the side mount cylinder. Because the volumes of the cylinder halves are not equal, the force produced by pumping hydraulic fluid into them is not equal, nor is the rate of turn precisely the same. In single engine installations this can be turned into an advantage whereby the propeller torque can be equalized by the asymmetry of the of steering forces.
The side mount has the advantage of being cheaper. It needs less hardware to connect to the engine (since it uses your existing tiller arm and drag link).
Teleflex has excellent documentation to assist you in installing, bleeding, and using your hydraulic steering. They have a very responsive e-mail customer service manager who will supply you with additional explanations, etc., as needed. The Teleflex line is widely available, and the pricing is excellent through the dealer mentioned above.
The original Boston Whaler boat steering wheels were supplied by Grant, who still makes and sells a premium line of marine steering wheels. See their website at:
http://www.grantproducts.com/idea.html
(Skip the opening page which has a childish loud noise of a race car accelerating.)
Good luck with your project, whichever brand and style you choose. Advice to buy the all the components as a package may be a good way to save; I have not priced the differences myself. Perhaps you can report back and advise us on your findings if you explore that option.

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Author	Topic: Winter project-hydraulic steering-help!
onlyawhaler	posted 12-27-2002 10:47 PM ET (US) The upper lakes are frozen here in Utah. I am going to replace the standard cable teleflex on my 88 18ft Outrage with hydraulic steering as a project this winter. I have read a few threads and recieved advice here on Shoreway Marine as a good place to buy this hardware. However, it appears SeaStar and Teleflex have merged?. No more running the lines and cutting and sealing to length. They are pre-sealed I gathered from the conversation I had with Shoreway and I need to specify the exact length of lines. Has anyone done this on a 18 outrage? Do I also lose the complete steering wheel assembly in this process? Can I still keep my Whaler steering wheel? Should I go tilt steering or stay fixed. ANY advice or experience would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Sterling
jimh	posted 12-28-2002 12:05 AM ET (US) The helm from a standard cable steering unit will not function as a helm for a hydraulic cylinder actuated steering unit. You must purchase the appropriate hydraulic pump helm unit. Typically the steering wheel will fit the new helm, if it has the same size tapered shaft (most do). The exact marketing difference between products labeled "Teleflex" and those labeled "SeaStar" is unknown to me. I think maybe the SeaStar line is targeted at smaller boats. I would recommend Shoreway; their prices are far below other sources. I saved $100 on a $275 cylinder (i.e., it was $375 at West Marine and extra ordering charges, too). Consider a side mount cylinder such as the HC5370. With this style of actuator, the lines do not move about the splash well. The lines connect to the cylinder which is fixed to the engine mount. Thus, you can locate the lines and ty-wrap them in place. The large transom of the 1988 18-OUTRAGE will accommodate this cylinder. You also reuse your drag link from the mechanical steering.
whalersman	posted 12-28-2002 01:00 PM ET (US) onlyawhaler, There have been many threads on this as I have read most of them. To make this short, the length of the Hydraulic hoses have been said to be 18' in length for the Outrage 18. You will need to buy a new Hydraulic Pump (Helm) and maybe the adapater to cover the larger hole in the console that the older style Helm required. You should be able to use your original Steering Wheel. As far as front mounted or side mounted steering cylinders, as jimh points out above, I don't know for sure. Here is a link from continuouswave describing both systems. http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/standardTransomBracket.html Maybe some people here can tell us more about their setup. Does anyone here have photos of the side mount steering system on a single engine setup?? How does it work for you?? Same goes for the center mount cylinder. Anyone?? Do the dragging hoses present any problems? Pros / Cons?? I would like to know myself as I will be adding the SeaStar Hydraulic steering someday.
Steve Leone	posted 12-28-2002 03:40 PM ET (US) I have a bunch of Seastar and Hyanautic stuff if you are interested. Used. Works. Cheap. Steve
doobee	posted 01-01-2003 01:31 PM ET (US) Teleflex, Seastar, Morse, Shields, and Sierra have all merged into one company. When buying new it is typically less expensive to buy the complete system, instead of the individual components. Side mount cylinders are typically used on single engines less than 150HP. Do you have a swim platform on the right side of your boat? If so you may wind up climbing over the cylinder to get to the platform. Side mount is less expensive than front mount. Front mount cylinders typically are used on motors over 150hp, twin engines, and installations where there is no room for a side mount. The front mount cylinder attaches to the tilt tube so i'm not sure why the hoses would be moving around the splashwell. I would not recommend the new Teleflex Baystar system as I have heard that it is unreliable. If you want an alternative to Teleflex hydraulics, check out a company called UFLEX at www.uflexusa.com. They offer a good system that is a little less expensive than teleflex. They also offer a cable steering system which is superior to teleflex. Your steering wheel should fit on any of these systems. Once you see the UFLEX wheels, you may not want to keep yours.
jimh	posted 01-01-2003 08:41 PM ET (US) With regard to the cabling differences between side mount and front mount cylinders: The front mount cylinder is the most commonly used installation. The hydraulic lines attach to the cylinder which then moves back and forth on a fixed shaft. The cylinder drags the steering arm of the motor around with it. Thus the cables have to have slack enough to permit them to move around the splash well and follow the cylinder. The splash well also must have sufficient clearance to allow the engine to tilt into it with the front mount cylinder attached. If you have mounted the engines on a bracket, or perhaps wish to in the future, check the clearance carefully; it may be that the front mount cylinder will not permit the engine to be tilted completely forward. Thus with a front mount cylinder you have two more cables in the splash well, flopping around as the engine moves for steering or tilting. In contrast, the side mount cylinder attaches to the tilt tube of the engine, a fixed location, and exerts its effort on the engine with a actuator rod via a drag link. This is exactly how the mechanical steering operates, too. The cables are not in the splash well, which cleans up the well a bit. Side mount cylinders like the HC5370 are also used with dual engines and are rated for installations up to 600-horsepower according to Teleflex on their excellent website. A dual side mount installation generally means opposing the cylinders, and this requires mounting one of them to the port side of the port engine. Depending how the tilt tube is designed, this may create a problem that has to be solved, perhaps by reversing the tilt tube. http://www.seastarsteering.com/OUTBOARD/oboard.htm?../OUTBOARD/SIDE_MOUNT/Side_Mnt.htm&1 The one difference in the front versus side mounting cylinders is the asymmetry of the force produced by the side mount cylinder. Because the volumes of the cylinder halves are not equal, the force produced by pumping hydraulic fluid into them is not equal, nor is the rate of turn precisely the same. In single engine installations this can be turned into an advantage whereby the propeller torque can be equalized by the asymmetry of the of steering forces. The side mount has the advantage of being cheaper. It needs less hardware to connect to the engine (since it uses your existing tiller arm and drag link). Teleflex has excellent documentation to assist you in installing, bleeding, and using your hydraulic steering. They have a very responsive e-mail customer service manager who will supply you with additional explanations, etc., as needed. The Teleflex line is widely available, and the pricing is excellent through the dealer mentioned above. The original Boston Whaler boat steering wheels were supplied by Grant, who still makes and sells a premium line of marine steering wheels. See their website at: http://www.grantproducts.com/idea.html (Skip the opening page which has a childish loud noise of a race car accelerating.) Good luck with your project, whichever brand and style you choose. Advice to buy the all the components as a package may be a good way to save; I have not priced the differences myself. Perhaps you can report back and advise us on your findings if you explore that option.