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Author Topic:   Yamaha Tilt and Trim: Time to repower?

Jay Herrin posted 10-26-2003 08:25 AM ET (US)
My 90 Yamaha (1987) tilt and trim has started to "leak down" apparently due to an internal leak (no sign of leakage). The dealer says the repair could be $500-600 or more, and I'm wondering if it's time to go 4-stroke or if anyone has had succes in replacing the seals in the t/t unit. My motor has about 200 hours on it and is like new! Please offer a little constructive advice. Thanks, J Jaybird
jimh posted 10-26-2003 09:45 AM ET (US)
If it is any solace, I am in the same boat, so to speak, with my 1987 Yamaha engine. It began to show some signs of leaking down a few years ago.
What I have observed is that it seems to leak down faster when not loaded heavily, that is, when it is just holding the weight of the engine from gravity it leaks faster than other situations. When the hydraulic system is under load, say pushing the boat along at 30-MPH when the thrust of the engine is pushing against the trim cylinder and in turn against the transom, the leakage slows down considerably. Only a tweak every ten minutes or so is needed to keep the trim cylinder in place.
I also have noticed that the leakage seems to depend on some quirks in the circulation of the fluid, as running the engine up and down through the entire range seems to help.
From all this I think my problem might just be a stuck or leaking check valve. But I also get the notion that it will be expensive to fix.
First of all, it looks like you have to remove the whole power head and lower unit from the mount to get access to the trim and tilt. That is a lot of labor and probably a couple of hundred dollars of the repair price being quoted.
I would suggest checking the hydraulic fluid levels. I have not gotten around to that myself. I don't think this procedure is covered in the owner's manual, but I think it is covered in the repair manual, which I don't have. I have (somewhere) a copy of an after-market manual which mentions how to do this, if I could only find it in the carefully unorganized marine literature section of my home library.
Even if the repair costs $600, this is only about ten percent of the cost of a new engine, so on an economic basis it seems to make sense to keep the 1987 engine going if it otherwise is running in good, sound condition.
As a work around while the trim is on the fritz, you can use the mechanical limit mechanism built into the engine mount to keep it at the proper trim. Just move that spring-loaded bar to the proper hole.
On my list of "Things to do while the boat is in winter lay up" is to find out more about this problem and how to fix it. Maybe we will get some more ideas from other posters in this thread.
Hobie1981 posted 10-26-2003 11:32 AM ET (US)
Hi Jay & Jimh,
I have 2 Yamaha 70 motors. The motor presently on my Nauset's transom, has some sort of leak regarding the T/T unit. I can't see any leakage on any of the 3 cylinder caps. I find I must add fluid every 6 weeks or so. When not in use, motor is tilted up. The manual bracket which is used to hold the motor up, has long since rusted away, so the tilt cylinder is always under load, when the boat is docked at the marina.
I have noticed that when I'm using the trim function, the unit is rather noisy. I always bleed the system after I add fluid, so I don't think air in the system is causing the noise.
Jay: Is yout T/T behaving the same way?
Of course my back up motor has external leaks on the trim cylinder cap seals. They leak pretty badly. I've been quoted $290-$350 to get those puppies fixed by my local Yamaha dealer, on this motor.
Have not a clue what the cost would be for the motor on the boat, other than what I learned from your post.
Motors are in good shape other than that.
Hobie
lhg posted 10-26-2003 08:08 PM ET (US)
With Mercury, at least, a leaking down power trim system is not repairable and requires a new unit, about a $600 job.
Don't ask me why, but that's what I've been told by my Mercury guys. It could be that tear down & rebuild is too labor intensive for dealership work. I would imagine they are rebuilt at the factory and re-sold as new. For Mercs, 75Hp and up, replacement involves removing the port side of the engine bracket from the BOAT.
This was one of the few warranty claims I had on my 200 EFI's.
Bigshot posted 10-27-2003 01:00 PM ET (US)
Depends on what is leaking. Is the fluid level low or the "check valve" just not holding pressure? if it is externally leaking fluid, just keep filling it up. If the check valve is bad you need to remove the engine and fix a $1 part inside the hydraulic unit. My 90 the check valve went bad so for 2 years I just drove with the tilt pin at a good height. If I needed to run in shallow water I would just have to keep "bipping" the switch.
Tom2697 posted 10-27-2003 01:29 PM ET (US)
Have you checked the pressure bleed screw? If that loosens or corrodes, your motor won't hold the position. Often, it is the simplest things that cause the most headaches.
TampaTom posted 10-27-2003 03:11 PM ET (US)
Check with marine salvage yards for entire trim unit. Also ebay. I've got a couple for my Johnson (paid about $75/each) and swap parts in and out. I haven't replaced the cylinder seals (other than o-ring at the motor) but understand it's not a big deal. You could also remove the cylinders, get the replacement seals, and let someone with hydraulic experience do it.
It could be a dried out o-ring at the bled or fill screw or at the trim motor.
Mumbo Jumbo posted 11-03-2003 02:38 AM ET (US)
On my 1990 90 Yamaha I had the entire hydraulic motor and cylinder assembly replaced with a remanufactured unit. These units are available but I don't know where the boat repair shops/dealers get them from. You might check the o-rings on the cylinder pistons. They are replaceable and, if they are leaking, that might solve your problem. The newer Yamahas have a hydraulic motor and valve unit which is separate from the balance of the assemby and is easier and cheaper to replace (I think the 90 is in this group). I bought a new Yamaha 90 this year and still think it is the perfect engine for a classic 16.
peetmin posted 11-03-2003 05:35 PM ET (US)
Jay- your story sounds a lot like a unpleasant experience I had last year. I have a similar vintage 225 hp Yamaha, while inspecting it I noticed a small amount of hydraulic oil pooled around the top of the trim/tilt hydraulic cylinder, by the brush that wipes the ram. I went to the Yamaha shop and bought the rebuild kit ($100) and thought I might take on the task of rebuilding.
After struggling to find the correct spanner wrench (metric) I turned the project over to my trusted Yamaha mechanic. He informed me that I would have to replace the ram/piston as well because that was the only way to replace the failing wiper. I agreed and he proceeded. After he rebuilt the whole assembly the mechanic calls me to tell me he has reassembled the whole trim/tilt and it will not stay up without bleeding off rapidly.
I had a trip that included the boat planned for the following week and needed the boat, so I asked him what he suggested. He said he was already into the project nearly $500 and he feared if he disassembled/reassembled again he would have the same results. Based on this he suggested I replace the unit. When I asked how much this would cost he offered me a chair. $1700 and that was just for the part.
At this point I am asking myself the same question how much is this motor worth? Sure it runs great be it is terribly thirsty and 15 years old. I found the better question for me was, are you ready to shell out the minimum $17k to replace? Nope.
Long story short I negotiated with the owner of the shop some of the first labor portion of the rebuild that was not successful and ended up $2200 the poorer with a new trim/tilt.
I�m sure there are plenty of alternative ideas that may or may not have saved money. As they say,� If you want it bad you�ll get it bad�
One interesting side note, it turns out the old trim button and pump used a three wire control and the new pump assembly only used two wire control and required three additional solenoids. My mechanic friend was so reluctant to tell me that there was going to be another $500 in solenoids that he found them and took them off of a parts motor at no additional cost to me.
I don�t know if there is any lesson to be learned in my story other than there doesn�t seem to be anything cheap about boats. Regards, Pete
peetmin posted 11-03-2003 05:44 PM ET (US)
You should check with Steve Leone (forum Member) I believe he is a Yamaha outboard mechanic who occasionally has used parts. May be worth a try...
Steve Leone posted 11-08-2003 12:45 AM ET (US)
Sorry, no used tilt/trim for Yamaha at the moment. I can check the usual suspects if you like. Steve
Jay Herrin posted 11-10-2003 04:51 PM ET (US)
Hey Guys..(girls) My sincere thanks to everyone who offered an opinion on my problem. After a lot of "soul searching" I elected to let my Yamaha dealer fix the problem. I picked the boat up yesterday and it was perfect! The total tab was less than 500.00 and I am very happy. My thanks to Bill at Crystal River Marine for a supurb job! Keep those comments coming......Jaybird
aah924 posted 03-27-2011 08:22 AM ET (US)
So, I am in the same situation fwith my 1987 70 hp. I have a rusted motor, that works, and the tilt will go up and down, but I have a significant leak when the motor is tilted up & down. So, if th leak is in the main hyd. cyl., can this cyl. be rebuilt? Is there a yamaha rebuild kit avail? also, thoughts on the elec. motor thats rusted. Am i better off to try to find a replacement, while the engine is already off of the boat?
Allen
Clark Roberts posted 03-28-2011 05:26 AM ET (US)
Try this: remove manual release valve (unscrew and pull straight out); drain all fluid (you may have to run motor a bit); replace the O ring seals on valve, lube it up and push back in, tighten up; mix some automatic transmission fluit conditioner (from any auto store) with some Dexron (atf) and refill reservoir. The pump should be self priming so just keep tunning motor until hyd operates normally. It may require some topping off after operating a bit. The conditioner hopefully will swell any internal gaskets that are at fault and free up any stubborn check valves. Good luck... Clark
PS: suggest a 25% mixture of conditioner to Dexron
jimh posted 03-28-2011 07:31 AM ET (US)
To follow up to the problem I reported eight years ago, I should say that the trim-tilt unit on my Yamaha cured itself. It just needed the fluid topped off and the engine trim run up and down over the full range of movement several times. This bled air from the system and help free any stuck check valves.
Tohsgib posted 03-28-2011 01:15 PM ET (US)
Allen yes it is a great time to replace the motor and go aftermarket which should be plastic instead of steel. There are rebuild kits, depends on how easy it comes apart.

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Author	Topic: Yamaha Tilt and Trim: Time to repower?
Jay Herrin	posted 10-26-2003 08:25 AM ET (US) My 90 Yamaha (1987) tilt and trim has started to "leak down" apparently due to an internal leak (no sign of leakage). The dealer says the repair could be $500-600 or more, and I'm wondering if it's time to go 4-stroke or if anyone has had succes in replacing the seals in the t/t unit. My motor has about 200 hours on it and is like new! Please offer a little constructive advice. Thanks, J Jaybird
jimh	posted 10-26-2003 09:45 AM ET (US) If it is any solace, I am in the same boat, so to speak, with my 1987 Yamaha engine. It began to show some signs of leaking down a few years ago. What I have observed is that it seems to leak down faster when not loaded heavily, that is, when it is just holding the weight of the engine from gravity it leaks faster than other situations. When the hydraulic system is under load, say pushing the boat along at 30-MPH when the thrust of the engine is pushing against the trim cylinder and in turn against the transom, the leakage slows down considerably. Only a tweak every ten minutes or so is needed to keep the trim cylinder in place. I also have noticed that the leakage seems to depend on some quirks in the circulation of the fluid, as running the engine up and down through the entire range seems to help. From all this I think my problem might just be a stuck or leaking check valve. But I also get the notion that it will be expensive to fix. First of all, it looks like you have to remove the whole power head and lower unit from the mount to get access to the trim and tilt. That is a lot of labor and probably a couple of hundred dollars of the repair price being quoted. I would suggest checking the hydraulic fluid levels. I have not gotten around to that myself. I don't think this procedure is covered in the owner's manual, but I think it is covered in the repair manual, which I don't have. I have (somewhere) a copy of an after-market manual which mentions how to do this, if I could only find it in the carefully unorganized marine literature section of my home library. Even if the repair costs $600, this is only about ten percent of the cost of a new engine, so on an economic basis it seems to make sense to keep the 1987 engine going if it otherwise is running in good, sound condition. As a work around while the trim is on the fritz, you can use the mechanical limit mechanism built into the engine mount to keep it at the proper trim. Just move that spring-loaded bar to the proper hole. On my list of "Things to do while the boat is in winter lay up" is to find out more about this problem and how to fix it. Maybe we will get some more ideas from other posters in this thread.
Hobie1981	posted 10-26-2003 11:32 AM ET (US) Hi Jay & Jimh, I have 2 Yamaha 70 motors. The motor presently on my Nauset's transom, has some sort of leak regarding the T/T unit. I can't see any leakage on any of the 3 cylinder caps. I find I must add fluid every 6 weeks or so. When not in use, motor is tilted up. The manual bracket which is used to hold the motor up, has long since rusted away, so the tilt cylinder is always under load, when the boat is docked at the marina. I have noticed that when I'm using the trim function, the unit is rather noisy. I always bleed the system after I add fluid, so I don't think air in the system is causing the noise. Jay: Is yout T/T behaving the same way? Of course my back up motor has external leaks on the trim cylinder cap seals. They leak pretty badly. I've been quoted $290-$350 to get those puppies fixed by my local Yamaha dealer, on this motor. Have not a clue what the cost would be for the motor on the boat, other than what I learned from your post. Motors are in good shape other than that. Hobie
lhg	posted 10-26-2003 08:08 PM ET (US) With Mercury, at least, a leaking down power trim system is not repairable and requires a new unit, about a $600 job. Don't ask me why, but that's what I've been told by my Mercury guys. It could be that tear down & rebuild is too labor intensive for dealership work. I would imagine they are rebuilt at the factory and re-sold as new. For Mercs, 75Hp and up, replacement involves removing the port side of the engine bracket from the BOAT. This was one of the few warranty claims I had on my 200 EFI's.
Bigshot	posted 10-27-2003 01:00 PM ET (US) Depends on what is leaking. Is the fluid level low or the "check valve" just not holding pressure? if it is externally leaking fluid, just keep filling it up. If the check valve is bad you need to remove the engine and fix a $1 part inside the hydraulic unit. My 90 the check valve went bad so for 2 years I just drove with the tilt pin at a good height. If I needed to run in shallow water I would just have to keep "bipping" the switch.
Tom2697	posted 10-27-2003 01:29 PM ET (US) Have you checked the pressure bleed screw? If that loosens or corrodes, your motor won't hold the position. Often, it is the simplest things that cause the most headaches.
TampaTom	posted 10-27-2003 03:11 PM ET (US) Check with marine salvage yards for entire trim unit. Also ebay. I've got a couple for my Johnson (paid about $75/each) and swap parts in and out. I haven't replaced the cylinder seals (other than o-ring at the motor) but understand it's not a big deal. You could also remove the cylinders, get the replacement seals, and let someone with hydraulic experience do it. It could be a dried out o-ring at the bled or fill screw or at the trim motor.
Mumbo Jumbo	posted 11-03-2003 02:38 AM ET (US) On my 1990 90 Yamaha I had the entire hydraulic motor and cylinder assembly replaced with a remanufactured unit. These units are available but I don't know where the boat repair shops/dealers get them from. You might check the o-rings on the cylinder pistons. They are replaceable and, if they are leaking, that might solve your problem. The newer Yamahas have a hydraulic motor and valve unit which is separate from the balance of the assemby and is easier and cheaper to replace (I think the 90 is in this group). I bought a new Yamaha 90 this year and still think it is the perfect engine for a classic 16.
peetmin	posted 11-03-2003 05:35 PM ET (US) Jay- your story sounds a lot like a unpleasant experience I had last year. I have a similar vintage 225 hp Yamaha, while inspecting it I noticed a small amount of hydraulic oil pooled around the top of the trim/tilt hydraulic cylinder, by the brush that wipes the ram. I went to the Yamaha shop and bought the rebuild kit ($100) and thought I might take on the task of rebuilding. After struggling to find the correct spanner wrench (metric) I turned the project over to my trusted Yamaha mechanic. He informed me that I would have to replace the ram/piston as well because that was the only way to replace the failing wiper. I agreed and he proceeded. After he rebuilt the whole assembly the mechanic calls me to tell me he has reassembled the whole trim/tilt and it will not stay up without bleeding off rapidly. I had a trip that included the boat planned for the following week and needed the boat, so I asked him what he suggested. He said he was already into the project nearly $500 and he feared if he disassembled/reassembled again he would have the same results. Based on this he suggested I replace the unit. When I asked how much this would cost he offered me a chair. $1700 and that was just for the part. At this point I am asking myself the same question how much is this motor worth? Sure it runs great be it is terribly thirsty and 15 years old. I found the better question for me was, are you ready to shell out the minimum $17k to replace? Nope. Long story short I negotiated with the owner of the shop some of the first labor portion of the rebuild that was not successful and ended up $2200 the poorer with a new trim/tilt. I�m sure there are plenty of alternative ideas that may or may not have saved money. As they say,� If you want it bad you�ll get it bad� One interesting side note, it turns out the old trim button and pump used a three wire control and the new pump assembly only used two wire control and required three additional solenoids. My mechanic friend was so reluctant to tell me that there was going to be another $500 in solenoids that he found them and took them off of a parts motor at no additional cost to me. I don�t know if there is any lesson to be learned in my story other than there doesn�t seem to be anything cheap about boats. Regards, Pete
peetmin	posted 11-03-2003 05:44 PM ET (US) You should check with Steve Leone (forum Member) I believe he is a Yamaha outboard mechanic who occasionally has used parts. May be worth a try...
Steve Leone	posted 11-08-2003 12:45 AM ET (US) Sorry, no used tilt/trim for Yamaha at the moment. I can check the usual suspects if you like. Steve
Jay Herrin	posted 11-10-2003 04:51 PM ET (US) Hey Guys..(girls) My sincere thanks to everyone who offered an opinion on my problem. After a lot of "soul searching" I elected to let my Yamaha dealer fix the problem. I picked the boat up yesterday and it was perfect! The total tab was less than 500.00 and I am very happy. My thanks to Bill at Crystal River Marine for a supurb job! Keep those comments coming......Jaybird
aah924	posted 03-27-2011 08:22 AM ET (US) So, I am in the same situation fwith my 1987 70 hp. I have a rusted motor, that works, and the tilt will go up and down, but I have a significant leak when the motor is tilted up & down. So, if th leak is in the main hyd. cyl., can this cyl. be rebuilt? Is there a yamaha rebuild kit avail? also, thoughts on the elec. motor thats rusted. Am i better off to try to find a replacement, while the engine is already off of the boat? Allen
Clark Roberts	posted 03-28-2011 05:26 AM ET (US) Try this: remove manual release valve (unscrew and pull straight out); drain all fluid (you may have to run motor a bit); replace the O ring seals on valve, lube it up and push back in, tighten up; mix some automatic transmission fluit conditioner (from any auto store) with some Dexron (atf) and refill reservoir. The pump should be self priming so just keep tunning motor until hyd operates normally. It may require some topping off after operating a bit. The conditioner hopefully will swell any internal gaskets that are at fault and free up any stubborn check valves. Good luck... Clark PS: suggest a 25% mixture of conditioner to Dexron
jimh	posted 03-28-2011 07:31 AM ET (US) To follow up to the problem I reported eight years ago, I should say that the trim-tilt unit on my Yamaha cured itself. It just needed the fluid topped off and the engine trim run up and down over the full range of movement several times. This bled air from the system and help free any stuck check valves.
Tohsgib	posted 03-28-2011 01:15 PM ET (US) Allen yes it is a great time to replace the motor and go aftermarket which should be plastic instead of steel. There are rebuild kits, depends on how easy it comes apart.