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Outrage 22 Cockpit Deck Repair
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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Whaler Repairs/Mods
Outrage 22 Cockpit Deck Repair
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| Author | Topic: Outrage 22 Cockpit Deck Repair |
| jechura |
posted 10-21-2004 11:06 PM ET (US)  
Jeff's repairs: http://photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Floor%20repair/?action=view¤t=DSC08178.jpg Re-coring of the decks of the older boats is inevitable and should be checked. First two pictures of the front and the last to of the rear sumps. Unlike your boat mine is trailer and stored indoors for the last ten years. Your problem started many years ago due to lack of some preventive maintenance. That is the prior owner or who ever maintained the boat for him. I would almost bet that is was the deck screws where the water came and started the delamination. Just my opinion. Is that a dehumidifier running? Oh- Been their done that 2 years ago but on my 22 starcraft. Jerry |
| jeffs22outrage |
posted 10-25-2004 04:56 PM ET (US)
The delamination started in many places. The screw holes where just one place where it started. The problem in this area was made worse by the fact the factory ground down areas of the underside of the floor where it was screwed to the hull down to the wood in some places to make the deck fit flush. The next area was where the console cables and wires come throught the floor in into the console. The factory cut the hole for the bezel to fit in however they never reglassed that area. So with the end gain exposed the wood wicked what ever water was around up into it. Another area the delaminaton started was the deck pass throughs are. The floor has fiberglass lips around where these circular bezels go however we found many areas where the factory did not seal the wood completely in these areas. Thus leaving it exposed. See above image In the fish locker area as well there is an area where the factory completely missed glassing the end of one plywood panel. Probaly the biggest factor in the floor rotting is the fact that there are many places to trap water in this area and once it there it is though to get out. So it sits and evaporates and then recollects on the underside of the floor. Look along the port side..there are two area that drain to nowhere. Well one drains to the fuel tank basin area then it goes nowhere. I am looking into ways of recoring the floor with a starboard like plastic so I will never encounter this problem again. I did clean out the areas under the floor last weekend and it came out very nice. Come spring I hope to have the boat refinished with new wiring, gauges, newly polished Stainless, refinished teak, stripped bottom, and a new custom made wood rear bench seat....I plan on documenting all of this process for my records and posting it here. I am posting images to my photobucket account so if you wish to see them follow the link. I just took the boat to winter storage this past weekend. I will reassemble everthing in the spring...
Yes that is a dehumidifier...and no the boat does not have a rear sump. |
| JMARTIN |
posted 10-25-2004 07:26 PM ET (US)
The pictures of Jeff's OUTRAGE 22 look exactly like what I found when I removed the deck from my 1983 V-22 Revenge. Right down to the quart of brown water in the port side "tunnel to no where". The deck had the same exposed wood treatment around the circluar pry outs and the flanges where the deck screws go, as in the pictures. But, there was zero delamination, soft spots, or rot. I replaced all the fuel hoses, pressure tested the tank, slapped a couple of coats of good paint on the exposed wood, and put the deck back on with as good a caulk job as I could do. Which probably was not as good as the original. The boat stays under shelter about 80% of the time, but it does get a real soaking ever now and then. I consider myself lucky that the wood was in such good shape. When I put her back in the barn for the winter, which I guess is pretty soon, I am going to remove the access plates and hope for evaporation. John |
| andygere |
posted 10-26-2004 03:29 PM ET (US)
Jeff, John and others who have had the floor up in a 22' hull, how difficult is it to remove and replace the fish well and sternmost cover sections? I plan to recaulk my seams this winter, but I would like to do some other work, such as replace my fuel lines beforehand. My fishwell needs some gelcoat repair, and if it's not that difficult, I may just remove the entire section. Is it any easier to get at the fuel lines with this section off but the large floor panel still in place? I have not identified any soft spots in my floors, and want to do what I can to keep them solid. I think the aft/fishwell floor panel is a possible trouble spot, and even though I have recaulked the inside joint (under the floor panels) I suspect that the fishwell still leaks water forward at times. I'm also concerned about wicking through the holes in the plywood cut for the Beckson plates, and I'm tempted to order a set of replacement plates, remove the old ones and epoxy seal the edges of the holes in the floor. Any thoughts on this? The rigging cable ports that daylight under the console have always worried me. On my boat, the plastic shroud was never fastened down, and was just held in place by the cables. Everytime I washed the deck, water had to be getting down through that opening. I finally sealed it to the floor as well as possible with some marine caulk (not 5200!), but perhaps there's a better fix. I have a T-top so removing the console would be a lot of work, a project I prefer to avoid. |
| kingfish |
posted 10-26-2004 04:05 PM ET (US)
Andy- Different "John", but I'll try to field at least part of your question. I've had the rear deck up and re-installed and caulked it twice. Not a huge undertaking. I do not recall any way to remove the rear live well, if that is what you were making reference to, but once the rear deck panel is removed, access to the entire well is much easier and moving fuel lines around is much easier. |
| jeffs22outrage |
posted 10-26-2004 04:43 PM ET (US)
Andy- The rear fish locker is no big deal to pull up and out. However you will not be able to access the entire lenght of fuel line. Look at the image below. You will see there are two rubber hoses that run from the tank to the bulkhead at the front of the fishlocker. At that point they go to metal hard lines in the locker area through the starboard side of the locker where is goes back to rubber lines. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Floor%20repair/DSC02306.jpg Even if you order new Beckson plates you will not be able to access the pylwood around the cutout. There is a fiberglass lip surrounding the cut out, so to get to the wood area you have to go down and back up. See image below. BTW guys, my floor felt rock solid except for a 6" x 6" area in front of the console. I had no idea how bad it really was until the floor came up. I thought it was going to be a quick fix....should have known nothing on a boat it a quick fix. |
| kingfish |
posted 10-26-2004 04:54 PM ET (US)
Andy- I don't remember what year your 22 is (mine is a a 1992), but Jeff's configuration is different from mine, so at some point BW must have made a change to the rear part of the mold. My bait well is part of the mold itself and can't be removed. |
| JMARTIN |
posted 10-26-2004 04:56 PM ET (US)
The rear deck was easier to remove than the main deck. Less screws and no seat pedestals. Access to the fuel line is a little better. It looks like it is possible to replace the fuel line by disconnecting it from the tank thru the access hole and pulling it out the fish well. I would attach a line to the old hose before I pulled it out so I had something to pull the new hose back in. There were hard pieces of foam pads between the tank and the deck on my boat. It might be difficult to hit the path trying to push a new fuel hose into position. As long as you are looking at fuel lines, look at the fill and vent hose. My fill hose was rotted out and sitting in a puddle of gasoline. These hoses look like they are also able to be replaced with the main deck still on. My Revenge has a little floor deck that covered up part of these hoses and a cover plate on the side of the boat that were both easy to remove and reinstall. Be carefull, the fill hose should have a grounding wire wrapped around it and it is quite brittle. I removed the "gas cap" fitting from the top of the gunnel, disconnected and unwrapped the ground wire from the fill hose and pulled the hose out. I don't think you even have enough room to remove the clamp if you do not do it this way. Good luck, John |
| SpongeBob |
posted 10-26-2004 05:10 PM ET (US)
What are you going to replace the delaminated plywood with? In the previous thread on the 22 Revenge the floor was replaced with plywood. With all the modern coreing materials available today why would you not choose one of them instead of plywood. Most fiberglass supply houses sell structural foam panels in different thicknesses that can be bought already glassed on both sides. These could be bonded to the deck section just like the plywood originals were. In areas where hardware is to be placed smaller plywood, or starboard / whalerboard backing plates could be let into the panels after they have been bonded to the floor section and then glassed over. These backing plates could fail but the affected area would be much smaller and much easier to repair. |
| newport jack |
posted 10-26-2004 05:25 PM ET (US)
Guys thanks for the info, I have a 1987 20' Revenge, I was planning on doing the fill and vent hoses in spring. Now I'm going to make sure I have more time to really check it out!!!...........................Jack |
| JMARTIN |
posted 10-26-2004 05:42 PM ET (US)
Boy, the pictures sure help. My 1983 Revenge is different. Only one fuel pick up line, all rubber untill it attatches to a brass (?) fitting mounted to a board covering the starboard bilge access where the bilge pump and thru hull is. At this point it splits to two fuel hoses if needed for twins. Since I have a single, one of the fittings is capped. John |
| jeffs22outrage |
posted 10-26-2004 06:09 PM ET (US)
Sponge Bob here is an email I recieved from west systems today about recoring floor and glassing the starboard "Epoxy does not bond well to either of these plastics. I believe the manufacturers of Starboard have an adhesive to use, but it is generally used with mechanical fasteners. However I am now wondering if I really need to glass back over the starboard once I bond it to the deck with an adhesive... Where can I find info on the glassed foam panels and whalerboard? I was also thinking of using structural foam and glassing it myself. Since I live here in Detroit there are a couple companies I know of here who make high density foam used in model making for the Big Three. It is just the raw foam in 8" thick by 36" wide by 108" long sheets. |
| andygere |
posted 10-26-2004 07:07 PM ET (US)
When I was in college, I worked for a firm that fabricated underwater aeration towers for water supply reservoirs. We used pultruded structural fiberglass elements sold under the Extren brand name. For large surface panels, we used solid 4'x8' sheets, which were available in various thickness to match similar sizes of plywood. This would make a rotproof and strong (but somewhat heavier) coring material that could be bonded directly to the existing skin. They also offer a textured decking material that could be adapted in those cases when the skin is also damaged and can't be saved. Looks like there are a few good possibilities for coring materials from this outfit, take a look: http://www.strongwell.com/PultrudedProducts/Extren.HTM All that said, a recoring job using high quality, voidless plywood (such as Okoume), sealed with several coats of epoxy will probably outlast the rest of the hull. I built a kayak using these materials, and they are extremely strong, light, and if done correctly, impervious to moisture. |
| jeffs22outrage |
posted 10-26-2004 07:25 PM ET (US)
I am going to contact those people tomorrow. Thanks Andy |
| jimh |
posted 10-26-2004 10:35 PM ET (US)
In later years, the "tunnel to nowhere" on the port side of the deck of the 22-foot hull was modified to incorporate a drain. A small diameter flexible plastic hose, approximately 0.25-in ID, was plumbed into the extreme rear of the tunnel and linked across the rear cockpit locker to drain into the starboard tunnel and thence into the starboard sump. The plastic hose is just sealed in place with some adhesive/sealant material. The hose is arranged to that the drain end is slightly lower than the fill end (in the port tunnel). In this way water which finds its way into the port tunnel can drain into the starboard sump. In the REVENGE 22 model there are floor drains cut into the deck on either side of the cockpit near the helm position which drain water into these tunnels. So water is intentionally introduced into the port "tunnel to nowhere". This drain tube allows for it to eventually drain into the starboard sump. In comparing the rear locker molded into the deck of the 22-foot hull in a 1990 REVENGE 22 (mine) and a 1992 OUTRAGE 22 (kingfish's), I noticed that the locker had changed quite a bit. In the 1990 mold the locker has a vee bottom that ends in a flat center stripe about four inches wide. There is a drain through the hull on the starboard side just off-center of the keel. The rear bulkhead is flat and straight across In the 1992 model the locker rear bulkhead has a relief molded into it for a hose to rise from a sump pump which is intended to be mounted on a pad in the rear centerline of the locker. This feature is not in the 1990 mold. |
| LHG |
posted 10-26-2004 10:48 PM ET (US)
I think you guys are talking about the stern LIVE BAIT WELL! I wonder if the 22 Revenge and Outrage used different interior hull molds? On the 25's, I know they are the same. |
| jimh |
posted 10-26-2004 10:57 PM ET (US)
JMARTIN: Your suggestion to remove the metal fill fitting from the top of the port gunwale as a way to make insertion of new filler hose more easily done is a good idea. The rigging of the fuel hoses from the tank as done by the factory was typically to terminate them in some sort of brass fitting at or above the deck level. The rigger or installer of the engines then provided the additional fuel distribution, usually including a fuel/water separator filter, a primer bulb, and hose to the engine. In my 1987 Boston Whaler the fuel system was apparently terminated at deck level with two brass fittings mounted in the teak plywood fixed portion of the cover for the cockpit sump, as you described. There was a complex arrangement of elbow fittings and a threaded union which passed through the plywood deck cover. In all, it was quite a bit of plumbing with many opportunities for leaking, and for questionable benefit. My recommendation when re-furbishing the fuel distribution system to is dispense with these fittings and to run the fuel lines directly from the fuel tank pick-up fittings to the fuel/water separator manifold, wherever you happen to have located that device in your boat. ( I recommend locating the fuel/water separator filter as high above the deck and waterline as possible and typically under the gunwale cap. I do not like those installations where the fuel water/separator filter is deep in the engine splash well and prone to exposure to water.) By eliminating these fittings you will remove at least two connections (maybe four) in your fuel system where fuel could leak out or air could leak in. The fuel/water separator needs to be mounted with enough clearance under it so that the filter can be unscrewed and replaced easily. In my 1990 Boston Whaler the dual fuel lines were carried above the deck and terminated in a hose barb fitting that was mounted on an L-bracked that was fasted to the hull bulkhead just below the deck cap level. |
| jeffs22outrage |
posted 10-28-2004 01:57 PM ET (US)
Andy, HOLY CRAP....I called the company you recommend. They have what I am looking for however for a 1/2" x 4' x 8' sheet it is $574.00 with out shipping.. |
| andygere |
posted 10-28-2004 08:08 PM ET (US)
Jeff, That is a big chunk of change. I guess it more or less comes down to either time or money. As I said, quality plywood, properly encapsulated in expoxy, would probably perform almost as well, but it would be a lot more work. A 4x8 sheet of 1/2" Okoume will probably cost you $120-$150 with shipping, plus another $140 for resin and hardener. Figure another $20 for brushes, rollers, gloves etc. In the end, the difference is your labor. I think both methods work work equally well. Unfortunately, I think the finish work on the deck cores was somewhat variable, and there were some details (like sealing the holes for the Beckson plates) that were missed. I hate to say it, but it is a weakness of Whaler's construction method. The good news is that the panel is screwed in (not bonded) so a repair is possible, albeit with a lot of effort and expense. I'm hoping that my big investment in a full cover will save me from having to recore my own deck, and I'm certainly considering doing something to mitigate the places where water is most likely to wick into the core. Any thoughts on the best method to seal up the screw holes (holding the deck to the hull)? Silicone sealant, epoxy, 5200, or something else? |
| dfmcintyre |
posted 10-29-2004 10:12 PM ET (US)
Jeff - Check with Michigan Fiberglass, in EastPointe for the material you were wondering about. They are located on 9 Mile, .10 east of I94. Should be in the phone book. I was looking at that material for a forward sleeping platform, instead of using Baltec and incapsulating it with glass. Baltec is great if you have any sort of curves, but for a flat surface, the prefinished, prepreg will save alot of time (but not money....) Best- don |
| dfmcintyre |
posted 10-29-2004 10:23 PM ET (US)
Jeff- Further thoughts.....after looking at the pictures. I'd probably lean toward replacing it with the same thickness of plywood, probably rot resistent. Cheaper, and no one is really gonna see it, except for photos! However, when drilling into it for fittings, such as for the seating, I'd create a core of pure resin that extends 1/4 to 1/2 inch larger then the screw diameter. Let it harden, then drill the proper hole. That way your preventing water that might migrate past any bedding compound, to enter into any organic material. West Systems Epoxy recommends using this procedure. Best - Don |
| SpongeBob |
posted 11-01-2004 01:24 PM ET (US)
Jeff, Sorry I didn't get back on sooner, but as to suppliers of coreing materials the one that I have delt with and I believe carries the foam pannels is Fiberglass Coatings of St. Petersberg, Fl. They have a web site at FGCI.com. They are one of the areas largest ouppliers and serve many of the boatbuilders in the Tampa area. It may be prohibitive for you to ship from them though. |
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