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Author Topic:   1984 OUTRAGE: Assessing Transom Strength

whaler nut posted 06-08-2005 03:28 PM ET (US)
I have a 1984 OUTRAGE 22 CUDDY. I bought it several years ago. It has no bottom paint and was in very good condition when I bought it. I have since varnished all of the teak, installed hydraulic steering, and re-upholstered the seating. It has teak seats and completely rebuilt stern seat. I recently took off the ping pong ball device on the stern and got a little seepage of moisture from the screw holes. I took it to the fiberglass guy, who is the best I have ever used. He thinks the [transom] is weak. When you press on the engine shaft when the engine is tilted up there is some slight movement of the [transom]. Since we do not have many Boston Whaler boats here in Atlanta, he is [disinclined] to work on it. It is possible that the wood [embedded within the transom] is suspect, but there are no cracks.
Since I want everything perfect is it practical to replace the [wood embedded in the transom]?
This boat stays out of the water and under cover 50 weeks out of the year, and, after 21 years, the gelcoat looks new. I need some expert advice here. After $32,000. this boat looks new but this problem is a little depressing.
bsmotril posted 06-08-2005 03:38 PM ET (US)
You might drill a row of small test holes in the outside of the transom beginning about an inch from the bottom, and going up to the transom top, each about 2" apart, and the row about 1-2 inches to the side of the motor mount. A 1/16th inch bit will work. What you want to look for is wet wood chips coming from the interior, or water gushing out. Think of it as a transom biopsy, and it will give you a lot better idea of what you are up against. the holes can be easily pathced with marine-tex. A skilled ear could also tap the transom with a mallet and detect delamination or dullness from water intrusion, but the hole method is more certain. BillS
andygere posted 06-08-2005 08:27 PM ET (US)
Bill gives some good advice. You might also want to use a moisture meter to try to quantify if the transom does in fact have any rot in the encapsulated plywood. My guess, based on the description of the boat (dry stored, no bottom paint), is that it's OK.
jimh posted 06-08-2005 09:44 PM ET (US)
The transom of your boat takes its strength from the wood embedded in the laminated fiberglass of the hull. If the holes in the transom were poorly sealed, it is entirely possible that water has been allowed ingress to the wood inside the hull, and it often happens that wet wood rots and loses a considerable amount of its strength.
I interpret your description of the problem like this: Using the lower unit of the motor as a long lever arm, it is possible to induce deflection in the transom of such amount that an experienced fiberglass boat repairman believes the transom has been weakened. I have to rely on his judgment to assess the transom's condition. Therefore, I assume you have a serious problem in the transom. I assume you have to repair this to make the boat proper again. Let's proceed on those assumptions.
The remedy for this is not simple. I do not have first hand experience with this, however, I believe others have met this same problem with their Boston Whaler boats. There seems to be several methods for fixing this.
In any method you have to remove the engine from the transom and make serious repairs to it.
The first method is something fairly new. It involves removing the rotted wood and replacing it with a new material which is poured into the hull and cast in place. To accomplish this you have to cut off the top layer of laminate from the top surface of the transom. This will expose the embedded wood of the transom. Using a small chain saw--I am no kidding--you grind out all of the wood of the transom, but leave the laminate structure on either side of it and on the bottom intact. All of the ground and rotted wood is removed (with a vacuum), leaving a completely hollow transom. Into this cavity you pour the replacement transom material in liquid form. This material hardens in place into a very strong and very well bonded core of the transom. The inventor and supplier of this material claims its strength is excellent and it will not decay or rot.
A second method is more traditional. You would remove the laminate layer from the outer stern surface of the transom, remove all of the wood, install replacement wood, bond this to the rest of the laminated hull, then cover it with more cloth and resin, and rebuilt the entire transom. This will require extensive new laminate and gel coat work.
Another method is to retain the original transom, rotted wood and all, and,through a series of many holes, infuse into the rotted wood enough special resin to restore the strength and also stop further rot. This approach is the least invasive and retains the most original material. It is difficult to know if this will restore sufficient strength.
I assume that you probably won't be undertaking all of this work yourself, so I will leave it to the repair people you hire to supply more details of how they would go and which method they will use.
Binkie posted 06-08-2005 11:45 PM ET (US)
I don`t think a transom deflection test made by using the LU as a lever is a professional way to evaluate the condition of the transom. It may be rotted and it may not be. I would first pay a surveyer, or someone with a moisture meter to do an evaluation, before I would start cutting into the transom with a chainsaw. Wouldn`t you feel foolish if all you cut out was dry wood. This is about the same as a person getting a heart transplant, when they only needed blood pressure pills. A boat thats under cover 50 weeks a year for many years having a rotted transom, doesn`t seem plausable. Has anyone else tried this "lever" test with their Whaler? Maybe a little deflection is normal, Go to a dealer, and try this test with a new boat.
anthonylisske posted 06-09-2005 02:09 PM ET (US)
I had purchased a 1973 Outrage about a year ago. Both Myself and my father (400-500lbs. together)stood on the lower unit caviation plate. (I was going to repower anyway, so i did not care about the burnt engine)we boounced up and down on it.
In summary, no deflection whatsoever. FYI. Hope it helps.
(P.S.) If it had deflected, I would have posted here to find out if it was an issue. Haha.
Binkie posted 06-09-2005 02:22 PM ET (US)
I would love to see two men (500lb.) total, standing on the cavitation plate of a tilted up outboard. That would be like a circus trick. If you two stood like that with the motor down, it wouldn`t prove anything, because there is no lever action.
dfmcintyre posted 06-09-2005 06:56 PM ET (US)
Another way to check might be to remove the engine bolts, slide the engine off to one side and probe the holes with a small screwdriver or ice pick. See what you can feel or pry out of the holes.
While this may only give you an idea on the wood condition around the hole, it may be helpful.
Don
jimh posted 06-10-2005 08:28 AM ET (US)
Don--I know you had to make repairs to the transom on your beautiful OUTRAGE 21. Was this work done from the inboard side or outboard side of the transom?
whaler nut posted 06-10-2005 06:38 PM ET (US)
I have gone over everyones comments with the fiberglass guy (Joel). We ran a very high quality moisture meter over the stern and found the moisture level was 50% in the red zone only in the upper 6 in. of the transom and mostly off to the starboard of the top motor mount. There is very little red zone around the bottom half of the transom.
For info the two weeks of the year in the water usually is a 700 mi. tow per each week. Thus maybe 3,000 mi/ year.
I am wondering if this has made a minor problem a bigger one. Joel says fix all the screw holes from removing the inside and outside backflow stoppers and develop a good harness mounted to the back of the trailer and stop the motor from bouncing and wait a few years to see if cracks develop.
Being a whaler nut I want to make it like new again.
I don't know whether the stern is thich enough to do the replacement compound. I think this is what Edgewater uses in their transoms but their transoms are a lot wider.
Can we hear from someone who has done a rebuild of the transom.
anthonylisske posted 06-13-2005 02:16 PM ET (US)
Binkie,
I never said that we didn't look like a circus act. (Although we certainly looked like two idiots) The guy that we were purchasing the boat from almost had a heart attack.
Next time I do it (and I will) I will take pictures. Maybe there is a market for it. Are you interested?
Anthony
dfmcintyre posted 06-13-2005 07:18 PM ET (US)
Jim -
They took a circular saw and cut open the transom from the outside, dug out the rotted wood and replaced it with about twice the thickness of the origional wood.
Then built up the transom with glass and resin.
Don
PeteB88 posted 06-14-2005 12:05 AM ET (US)
Whatever you do with wood - "encapsulate" wood with marine epoxy (assuming bare, dry wood) and NOT polyester resin. Epoxy absorbs into the wood creating a strong bond w/ wood fibers. Polyester does not.
I would contact WEST Systems technical staff for advice and counsel. They are experts and we are great fans plus they have a couple of older Whalers. They know them well.
WEST is an acronym for Wood Epoxy Saturation Treatment.
Polyester does not "saturate" bare wood like marine epoxy.
Many fine wooden boats have been essentially ruined by well intended owners "fiberglassing" their wood boats with polyester fiberglass systems which never bonds with the wood. To be redundant on purpose - epoxy does. It's more expensive than polyester. But rework or project failure can be incredibly expensive if not disasterous.
good luck - Make it Fun!!

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Author	Topic: 1984 OUTRAGE: Assessing Transom Strength
whaler nut	posted 06-08-2005 03:28 PM ET (US) I have a 1984 OUTRAGE 22 CUDDY. I bought it several years ago. It has no bottom paint and was in very good condition when I bought it. I have since varnished all of the teak, installed hydraulic steering, and re-upholstered the seating. It has teak seats and completely rebuilt stern seat. I recently took off the ping pong ball device on the stern and got a little seepage of moisture from the screw holes. I took it to the fiberglass guy, who is the best I have ever used. He thinks the [transom] is weak. When you press on the engine shaft when the engine is tilted up there is some slight movement of the [transom]. Since we do not have many Boston Whaler boats here in Atlanta, he is [disinclined] to work on it. It is possible that the wood [embedded within the transom] is suspect, but there are no cracks. Since I want everything perfect is it practical to replace the [wood embedded in the transom]? This boat stays out of the water and under cover 50 weeks out of the year, and, after 21 years, the gelcoat looks new. I need some expert advice here. After $32,000. this boat looks new but this problem is a little depressing.
bsmotril	posted 06-08-2005 03:38 PM ET (US) You might drill a row of small test holes in the outside of the transom beginning about an inch from the bottom, and going up to the transom top, each about 2" apart, and the row about 1-2 inches to the side of the motor mount. A 1/16th inch bit will work. What you want to look for is wet wood chips coming from the interior, or water gushing out. Think of it as a transom biopsy, and it will give you a lot better idea of what you are up against. the holes can be easily pathced with marine-tex. A skilled ear could also tap the transom with a mallet and detect delamination or dullness from water intrusion, but the hole method is more certain. BillS
andygere	posted 06-08-2005 08:27 PM ET (US) Bill gives some good advice. You might also want to use a moisture meter to try to quantify if the transom does in fact have any rot in the encapsulated plywood. My guess, based on the description of the boat (dry stored, no bottom paint), is that it's OK.
jimh	posted 06-08-2005 09:44 PM ET (US) The transom of your boat takes its strength from the wood embedded in the laminated fiberglass of the hull. If the holes in the transom were poorly sealed, it is entirely possible that water has been allowed ingress to the wood inside the hull, and it often happens that wet wood rots and loses a considerable amount of its strength. I interpret your description of the problem like this: Using the lower unit of the motor as a long lever arm, it is possible to induce deflection in the transom of such amount that an experienced fiberglass boat repairman believes the transom has been weakened. I have to rely on his judgment to assess the transom's condition. Therefore, I assume you have a serious problem in the transom. I assume you have to repair this to make the boat proper again. Let's proceed on those assumptions. The remedy for this is not simple. I do not have first hand experience with this, however, I believe others have met this same problem with their Boston Whaler boats. There seems to be several methods for fixing this. In any method you have to remove the engine from the transom and make serious repairs to it. The first method is something fairly new. It involves removing the rotted wood and replacing it with a new material which is poured into the hull and cast in place. To accomplish this you have to cut off the top layer of laminate from the top surface of the transom. This will expose the embedded wood of the transom. Using a small chain saw--I am no kidding--you grind out all of the wood of the transom, but leave the laminate structure on either side of it and on the bottom intact. All of the ground and rotted wood is removed (with a vacuum), leaving a completely hollow transom. Into this cavity you pour the replacement transom material in liquid form. This material hardens in place into a very strong and very well bonded core of the transom. The inventor and supplier of this material claims its strength is excellent and it will not decay or rot. A second method is more traditional. You would remove the laminate layer from the outer stern surface of the transom, remove all of the wood, install replacement wood, bond this to the rest of the laminated hull, then cover it with more cloth and resin, and rebuilt the entire transom. This will require extensive new laminate and gel coat work. Another method is to retain the original transom, rotted wood and all, and,through a series of many holes, infuse into the rotted wood enough special resin to restore the strength and also stop further rot. This approach is the least invasive and retains the most original material. It is difficult to know if this will restore sufficient strength. I assume that you probably won't be undertaking all of this work yourself, so I will leave it to the repair people you hire to supply more details of how they would go and which method they will use.
Binkie	posted 06-08-2005 11:45 PM ET (US) I don`t think a transom deflection test made by using the LU as a lever is a professional way to evaluate the condition of the transom. It may be rotted and it may not be. I would first pay a surveyer, or someone with a moisture meter to do an evaluation, before I would start cutting into the transom with a chainsaw. Wouldn`t you feel foolish if all you cut out was dry wood. This is about the same as a person getting a heart transplant, when they only needed blood pressure pills. A boat thats under cover 50 weeks a year for many years having a rotted transom, doesn`t seem plausable. Has anyone else tried this "lever" test with their Whaler? Maybe a little deflection is normal, Go to a dealer, and try this test with a new boat.
anthonylisske	posted 06-09-2005 02:09 PM ET (US) I had purchased a 1973 Outrage about a year ago. Both Myself and my father (400-500lbs. together)stood on the lower unit caviation plate. (I was going to repower anyway, so i did not care about the burnt engine)we boounced up and down on it. In summary, no deflection whatsoever. FYI. Hope it helps. (P.S.) If it had deflected, I would have posted here to find out if it was an issue. Haha.
Binkie	posted 06-09-2005 02:22 PM ET (US) I would love to see two men (500lb.) total, standing on the cavitation plate of a tilted up outboard. That would be like a circus trick. If you two stood like that with the motor down, it wouldn`t prove anything, because there is no lever action.
dfmcintyre	posted 06-09-2005 06:56 PM ET (US) Another way to check might be to remove the engine bolts, slide the engine off to one side and probe the holes with a small screwdriver or ice pick. See what you can feel or pry out of the holes. While this may only give you an idea on the wood condition around the hole, it may be helpful. Don
jimh	posted 06-10-2005 08:28 AM ET (US) Don--I know you had to make repairs to the transom on your beautiful OUTRAGE 21. Was this work done from the inboard side or outboard side of the transom?
whaler nut	posted 06-10-2005 06:38 PM ET (US) I have gone over everyones comments with the fiberglass guy (Joel). We ran a very high quality moisture meter over the stern and found the moisture level was 50% in the red zone only in the upper 6 in. of the transom and mostly off to the starboard of the top motor mount. There is very little red zone around the bottom half of the transom. For info the two weeks of the year in the water usually is a 700 mi. tow per each week. Thus maybe 3,000 mi/ year. I am wondering if this has made a minor problem a bigger one. Joel says fix all the screw holes from removing the inside and outside backflow stoppers and develop a good harness mounted to the back of the trailer and stop the motor from bouncing and wait a few years to see if cracks develop. Being a whaler nut I want to make it like new again. I don't know whether the stern is thich enough to do the replacement compound. I think this is what Edgewater uses in their transoms but their transoms are a lot wider. Can we hear from someone who has done a rebuild of the transom.
anthonylisske	posted 06-13-2005 02:16 PM ET (US) Binkie, I never said that we didn't look like a circus act. (Although we certainly looked like two idiots) The guy that we were purchasing the boat from almost had a heart attack. Next time I do it (and I will) I will take pictures. Maybe there is a market for it. Are you interested? Anthony
dfmcintyre	posted 06-13-2005 07:18 PM ET (US) Jim - They took a circular saw and cut open the transom from the outside, dug out the rotted wood and replaced it with about twice the thickness of the origional wood. Then built up the transom with glass and resin. Don
PeteB88	posted 06-14-2005 12:05 AM ET (US) Whatever you do with wood - "encapsulate" wood with marine epoxy (assuming bare, dry wood) and NOT polyester resin. Epoxy absorbs into the wood creating a strong bond w/ wood fibers. Polyester does not. I would contact WEST Systems technical staff for advice and counsel. They are experts and we are great fans plus they have a couple of older Whalers. They know them well. WEST is an acronym for Wood Epoxy Saturation Treatment. Polyester does not "saturate" bare wood like marine epoxy. Many fine wooden boats have been essentially ruined by well intended owners "fiberglassing" their wood boats with polyester fiberglass systems which never bonds with the wood. To be redundant on purpose - epoxy does. It's more expensive than polyester. But rework or project failure can be incredibly expensive if not disasterous. good luck - Make it Fun!!