posted 01-03-2006 11:01 AM ET (US)        

I found a structural defect in my rigging tunnel when cleaning the mud out of it this weekend, while the epoxy on the new floor was curing.

I knew that I had some glass work ahead of me since there were some places where the glass high on the tunnel side was chipped. It appeared to be in two places: where rigging cables come in through the starboard “accessory” tunnel…this is where the wiring for my navigation lights, and my VHF and other cables associated with the antennae on my arch descend and make their way into the console. I used a metal fish tape when rigging these cables, and I think that I may have chipped the gelcoat with that tape. While I was surprised that such an activity could damage the gelcoat/fiberglass on a Boston Whaler, I knew that that damage had occurred. The second spot was where the cables exit, or descend (depending on your viewpoint) through the hawse-hole into the tunnel underneath the console. Same type of chipping, same theory.

As I was doing additional cleaning this weekend, I discovered there is very little chopped glass over the foam...just gelcoat. The surface was very brittle, and the force of rigging the boat cables, etc. had broken through in a few places. About a 4-foot section of the port side of the rigging tunnel is affected by this problem, with very brittle surface area that is easily broken through with just the slightest rapping with the wooden handle of the flathead screwdriver that I was using to gently scrape the cement-like mud in the tunnel floor.

The phenomena appears like alligator scales, with the green showing through, but when you poke through, there is very little chopped glass and then just foam.

Because this area is prone to water, I need to fix it, but because the area will also be covered by the new teak floor, I plan to clear the area of the bad material and apply an epoxy plug. I imagine that it will look very much like the plug from the factory over the sprue hole in front of the fuel tank – not pretty, but no need for cosmetics since it will be hidden by the floor.

posted 01-03-2006 09:06 PM ET (US)            

There is only one rigging tunnel, on the starboard side. The port "side" of the tunnel, nearest to the fuel tank cavity, has this defect, starting at the "head" of the tunnel where the cables enter from the console, back about 4 feet.

I have photos...I'm currently downloading something else, but will upload a photo later this evening and post a link.

posted 01-03-2006 09:18 PM ET (US)            

I know there is still some mud in this photo, but if you're able to zoom into it, you'll notice the "alligator scales". One of the muddy areas is also a "chipped" spot, if you look closely.

I apologize for the photo quality. My digital camera would not focus for any closer images (help on that one?)...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Buckda/Floor%20Repair/ Untitled048.jpg

posted 01-03-2006 10:03 PM ET (US)            

I sure hope you have been documenting your deck work. I would really like to your method for the teak deck. It looks great so far!

posted 01-03-2006 10:05 PM ET (US)            

I would really like to study your method for the teak deck installation.

posted 01-03-2006 10:08 PM ET (US)            

I don't, however, claim to be as "handy" as Jeff proved to be. I've been learning a lot along the way, meaning there've been some mistakes...but I'm proud of it so far...

This discovery, however, has promised to throw my timeline off a bit, as well as threatens to contribute to further "cost overruns".

posted 01-04-2006 07:09 PM ET (US)            

Something about wood on the water. After the Whaler is done, my next boat project will likely be an old woodie. Probably Chris-Craft, but perhaps a little Gar Wood or Hacker Craft. I really like the (relatively) inexpensive Chris-Craft Capri from the 1950's...it's plywood vs plank, so a bit less expensive to get into, but a fun, under 20' runabout would be neat for Lake Charlevoix and the TC area.

So, finishing cloth, eh? Okay. I have some left over from the deck project. I was just going to pour thickened epoxy into the voids after using some "great stuff" (they appear to be small, but I'll start removing material this weekend and will find out for sure). The whole thing would be sealed carefully to prevent future water intrusion. I'll fill the voids, add a layer of epoxy-wetted cloth and then seal it all with a top layer of thickened epoxy. Sound about right? I don't think there's any need for a UV protectant since this will all be hidden underneath the deck.

I'm also going through, one by one, and using Marine-Tex on the 48 screw holes from the previous deck. I'll re-drill the holes when I install the new deck, and seal with a bit of sealant upon the installation.

Thanks for the replys. I'm anxious to see how the whole thing looks when I'm finished in the spring and can bring the boat out of the barn and into full sunlight. Like a coccoon, that barn is...the boat keeps changing every spring when it emerges!

posted 01-04-2006 08:33 PM ET (US)            

If you are considering a wooden boat, I was involved with them quite heavily in Oregon - I would certainly look at Lyman boats. They are quite awesome, seaworthy and large following in Great Lakes. Sandusky is center of the Lyman universe.

http://www.lboa.net/

plus a bunch of other links.

Pete

posted 01-04-2006 09:51 PM ET (US)            

Have you had a chance to take a close look at the foam or poke around a little bit? It'd be interesting to see / hear how much deterioration has occured.

Is there any wood in the area?

Did you ever determine the initial point of failure? ie Screw penetrating deck, mechanical damage, freezing, etc. Sure would help in keeping an eye on that old crappy Outrage I've got. Ever since I found that small area of dry rot under the RPS leg at the screw I've been curious about what other areas are lurking that need to be looked at. I would think there are a number of common points of failure that lead to alot of these damages.

Glad to hear you're making progress.

I agree with you on the Chris. But then again, Lymans are pretty cool. Guy's father that I bought the Outrage from worked on Lyman's. Alot of the around but nothing like the Chris's at Les Chenaux.

posted 01-04-2006 10:15 PM ET (US)            

I think it was a defect in the manufacturing process. Either just for my model, or perhaps the mold. The problem appears to be that there was not enough glass mat sprayed into the mold, and then not enough gelcoat over that, or perhaps, the other way around, given the manufacturing process.

I can "envision" it happening at the factory. Maybe it was time for a break, maybe someone was learning the job and the supervisor didn't watch close enough. Whatever happened, it was missed in the quality control phase before the deck was put on the boat.

Whatever; it's a "general weakness" that needs to be addressed.

I'll take more photos this weekend as I dig deeper. Upon the first inspection, it did not appear that there was any wood in there (which would be congruent what what we know about the manufacturing process of Whalers). At the chipped spots, you can see the chipped gelcoat, the green gel is missing, then there's very little chopped glass fibers, and then just foam.

Because the chips are rather high along the edges of the tunnel (like along where the fuel tank cover would have been), I don't think there was much water ingression - perhaps some condensate moisture, and since the deck was pretty soaked, perhaps some "wicking" action there, but I'm pretty confident that it has remained relatively dry.

It's my assumption that the chips occurred when rigging the boat - wedge a electrical fish tape in there up against the floor once or twice, and the gelcoat is that brittle right there that you could break through. I'm willing to stipulate that's what probably happened to cause the actual holes.

All you guys who are going around filling your holes with some kind of sealant - don't forget the six screws under your console that fasten the deck to the boat hull...you can see those three holes in the photo - they go directly into the foam and are rather large screws.

Con -
The deck screws around the perimeter go into a raised "lip". I've got my epoxy syringes standing by - not sure what's under there (foam or a wood strip), but I'm going to fill each and then redrill for the new holes. My guess based on what I've seen under there is that the deck fastens to the flange and there is no wood backing - the security of the deck in place is dependent on the strength/thickness of the Whaler Gelcoat and the fact that there are a full 48 screws around the perimeter, and six screws under the console holding the deck in place.

Pete -
I like Lymans too, but they're often painted wood, and are "lapstrake". I prefer the smooth sides of the Chris-Crafts and the varnished wood look. But if a nice Lyman came along as a starter boat for me in that genre, I wouldn't pass it up. They are great boats.

posted 01-05-2006 12:04 AM ET (US)            

Best
Pete

posted 01-05-2006 12:56 PM ET (US)            

1. I would get a grinder and remove the ENTIRE area that is weak. Then use 60 grit to scuff the existing glass you plan to attach back to and shape the exposed foam to meet the gelcoat/fiberglass.

2. Cover the entire area with epoxy mixed with cabosil.

3. Then start adding woven glass cloth into the epoxy/cabosil. Work the cloth into the epoxy till is wets the cloth through. Make sure to get all of the air bubbles out. Voids = Weakness. Let that cure and repeat.

posted 01-05-2006 02:25 PM ET (US)            

Thanks for the advice and comments.

Larry - I've thought about it, and I may go that extra step next winter, but with a possible repower in the next few months (still working that whole thing out), I'm going to be "done" financially for a while. Additonal weight is also an issue when considering laying additional decking over the existing deck. As a replacement piece, I think I'm saving about 70-80 lbs over the deck it is replacing, but laying the entire cockpit may be a concern.

I will say that the "least expensive option" in terms of money for this project would have been to do what Jeff did on his 22. The teak decking option is about on par in terms of expense, with buying the deck from Brunswick CGP, shipping it and then having it painted to match the desert tan....plus I have to spend the time that Jeff did for the lamination to a sub-floor. This is an expensive bit of teak decking. 1/2 inch solid teak, quarter sawn with black rubber inlay. I hesitate to state out loud what the raw material cost. Basically, it's like buying another arch.

Adding the same teak to the rest of the sole would require another whole panel of the stuff; which I can readily obtain, but it would have to be cut up some - the decking would not completely run for and aft (by about 3 inches).

For the 2006 season, at least, I'm sticking to what I have now...but thanks for the compliments. I'm still wavering on the finish for the wood.

posted 01-05-2006 06:00 PM ET (US)            

Each 2 3/4 inch wide section of teak runs the full length of the deck fore to aft, there are no seams other than the rubber inlay between pieces.

I ended up trimming about an 1/8 inch off the "bottom" of the panel to help it fit in place with room for some expansion in summer's heat. I had to trim about 1/16 inch off either side, perhaps a little more on the port side - to have it fit properly from side to side.

Contender -
The source is a guy in Florida (though the teak shipped out of a warehouse in North Carolina). I think the site is www.worldpanelproducts.com The guy is an Aussie - and a real nice fellow. He'll gladly help you with the wood you need for any project.

The purchase experience (other than the price!) was exceptional, and I have to say, given the proce, was what was expected on my part. Shipping was reasonable, and it came well-packed and protected.

posted 01-05-2006 06:01 PM ET (US)            

Sorry for the confusion.

Go here: www.worldpanel.com

posted 01-05-2006 07:38 PM ET (US)            

And how the heck do you ship an 8x10 sheet?

posted 01-05-2006 09:15 PM ET (US)            

I don't think you'd get much expansion over the 2-3/4" width of the teak stripping . Not enough to raise any concerns. The epoxy probably gives enough where it wouldn't break the adhesion.

Dave,

I hadn't looked at the photo of the deck prior to my last post. NICE JOB!

On the repower front, I had heard that OMC was extending the e-tech warranty to six years. ???

posted 01-06-2006 09:30 AM ET (US)            

Thanks for sharing, I am looking forward to the write up on your new deck..It looks great

sorry for my impatience :-)

posted 01-06-2006 04:19 PM ET (US)            

Interestingly, I've encountered some of the same deterioration in my rigging tunnel. I looked closer last night after your post/responses.

The condition is just like you descirbe... thin/brittle gelcoat over very little glass cloth, the a void, then foam (I think). The location is high up on the tunnel, but near the sump. I suspect water has been absorbed into the foat, a bit anyway. I also see some initial "cracking" further along the rigging tunnel (closer to the center console). The gelcoat is nearly entirely in tack, but upon closer examination, I'm sure I could poke a hole in the gelcoat - it sounds kind of hollow with light tapping.

Repairs are in order... and I'll follow your lead. Keep us posted. It's also interesting that others have posted similar observations - make us wonder how widespread this problem/condition is in the mfg. process.

posted 01-06-2006 06:08 PM ET (US)            

Is your hull a 1986, manufactured in December 1985? Just wondering if they had a problem with this particular mold or something...perhaps a particular employee....certainly a particular quality control officer when the hulls were popped from the molds before the decks were attached...the only other boat I know for sure was made in December 1985 and a forum-member here is Joe Kriz's 18' Outrage with twin 70's; which he has since sold. It certainly would be interesting to see what the rigging tunnel looks like on that boat.

Jeff - what year is your hull?

My two small rigging tunnel covers (for the side tunnels) had some "coverage" problems as well. I've already patched those voids. There didn't seem to be similar problems with the deck when I removed it - nearly all of the damage, I believe, was caused by the water ingressing through non-sealed screw holes.

posted 01-06-2006 07:46 PM ET (US)            

In going through my GTX last year, I pulled the floorboards to replace the fuel tank. As you know, the bottom is the same as the 18 Outrage, and in the tunnel you speak of (mine is not used for rigging, as the wiring and control cables go down the starboard side), the whole thing was just barely covered with gel. As I was working on it, I even managed to dent it working in socks! I had some extra gel patch I didn't need and I put in on the cracks and pits (fanatic that I am it needed to be desert tan.)
By the way, my hull was built in the fall of 1984, and delivered to the dealer in November of 1984.

Just so you don't feel alone, I too questioned this lack of integrity and/or quality control. Good luck with the repairs.

posted 01-07-2006 08:37 PM ET (US)            

Interesting finding this afternoon: there is more wood in these hulls than I thought. On each side of the tank, there is a wood beam embedded into the foam running lengthwise.

I'll upload a photo soon so you guys can see it. Nice thick timber.

posted 01-07-2006 09:11 PM ET (US)            

I sanded the area and faired the edges to prepare for the epoxy work:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Buckda/Floor%20Repair/ Untitled058.jpg

You can see the wood in that shot. I think that the mold allowed for a very little space for foam to expand into the voids, however it appears that the foam expanded up alongside the edges of this wood, but it never flowed over the top of the wood, leaving the void where the glass chipped through.

posted 01-07-2006 11:58 PM ET (US)            

Epoxy should fix up the problems in the rigging tunnel. Since no one will see it you won't have to grind or sand it to a perfect finish, either.

posted 01-08-2006 08:26 AM ET (US)            

I too, just looked at the photo of the teak floor in place...looks fantastic! Very nice job.

On most of the large sportfishing boats I have seen the teak soles are left unfinished, but all other brightwork is highly varnished. Perhaps this is to aid traction.

posted 01-09-2006 06:47 PM ET (US)            

I need to go out and buy more epoxy for the tunnel repair, as I've exhausted my supply of the stuff - about $100 more in epoxy than I thought I'd use, but it's been good stuff and easy to work with.

The boat (sans floor and console) will be going to the boat yard next week for some fiberglass repair work from the holes in the transom from the poling platform, swim ladder and kicker motor bracket removal. I count 38 holes total in the splashwell dam and the tansom, most not "through" - only 8 will require patching beyond gelcoat repairs. Since those will be "visible," I want a pro doing the work.

Wow.

The fuel hoses and gauge/sender are replaced. Finito on that front - about $90 total there: $40 for the hoses and fittings; $40 for the fuel sender and $6 for the dial.

The belly of the beast is almost complete. By February, I should be rebuilding from the deck up. New motors, new controls, new guages, etc are all in the works but plans are not yet finalized.

posted 01-22-2006 10:16 PM ET (US)            

So far, only the barn cats know all the changes in store - but I'll give you a peek at the repair to the rigging tunnel:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Buckda/Floor%20Repair/ Untitled093.jpg

Not a perfect repair, by a long-shot....but the boat is again water-tight, and that's the important thing. I can now proceed to replace the deck (once the new fuel tank sender/guage comes in).

Then it will be time to run the rigging and dry-fit the console and leaning post.

Things are looking better for a March "useability" date...

posted 01-25-2006 01:11 PM ET (US)            

My rigging tunnel also had what seemed like very thin gelcoat on it. I had to patch a couple of spots also. I wouldn't worry about it.