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Author Topic:   Thru Hull Drains Replaced with PVC

btb posted 01-24-2007 09:07 AM ET (US)
I went ahead and replaced the poorly engineered and poorly installed Whaler snap drains, using Schedule 40 PVC.
I decided to replace the 3 fish box drains on my whaler when I noticed one had crusted salt on the outside (I keep the boat in my garage). The boat had the plastic "snap drains" in, but they weren't installed well and one of them seeped.
After buying replacement BW snap drains, I decided I could do better so I made a set from 1" Schedule 40 PVC.
To accomodate the hull angle, I guesstimated the angle, used a miter saw to cut the tube at an angle, and through a couple of tries got the angle spot-on. I then cut the end of a piece of coupler at the same angle and installed it on a short length of tube using the primer and PVC glue.
When dry, I cut the now one-piece tube/coupler at the same hull angle, leaving about 1/4" of the coupler attached to the tube. This resulted in a flare on the end of the tube, at the correct angle to fit flush against the underside of the hull. A bit of trimming of the end of the flare and I had a nice loooking rounded flare to mate up against the hull.
i installed the new drain from outside the hull using 3M 4200. I made a second flare from another 1" coupler and slipped this over the end of the tube in the fishbox using 4200 and voila!
I now have an essentially flush-fitting one piece thru hull which should last for a long time - schedule 40 is pretty tough.
HAPPYJIM posted 01-24-2007 09:27 AM ET (US)
Could you be so kind to post some pictures of this mod. That sure sounds easier and should last as long or longer than brass drain tubes.
btb posted 01-24-2007 01:41 PM ET (US)
Happy Jim - I would be happy to provide some how-to photos of this work, but unfortunately I have cleared everything up and thrown out all the bits and pieces. I will strive to take some useful pictures of the installation etc and post them somewhere you can see.
In the meantime here are the steps I took:
1) remove old drains by twisting them free, cleanup old caulk, lightly sand hull surfaces and clean with denatured alchohol.
2) Insert Sch. 40 pipe into hull and mark around pipe adjacent to hull to get hull angle.
3) Cut angle at end of pipe with miter saw and re-insert pipe in hull to verify angle - repeat using trial and error to get the angle right. I could set my miter saw at the exact angle, which was 12 degrees.
4) To make the lower angled flange, temporarily push a coupler fitting on the end of a length of pipe to make it easier to hold while cutting, and cut the end of the coupler to the hull angle - this will be the surface which will rest against the hull.
5) Remove the coupler, turn it 180 degrees, and glue the now angled end onto a suitable length of pipe, using primer and high quality PVC glue.
6) When set, make a cut parallel to and about 1/4" from the first angled cut - this is now the bottom flange. Shape the bottom of the flange using a sander then finer wet or dry to achieve a smooth, rounded finish.
7) To make the top flange, cut a 1/4" slice out of another coupler, starting about 1/4" from the coupler end (the inside of the coupler is tapered and we want the slice from about 1/2 way up the coupler) Temporarily push this slice onto a piece of pipe to facilitate sanding, and sand this to a nice rounded profile.
8) "Butter" plenty of 4200 around the hole in the hull, top and bottom, and put plenty of 4200 around the pipe and top surface of the angled flange, and push the pipe up through the hull from the outside, rotating the pipe to set the flange flush against the hull.
9) While firmly holding the pipe in place, have a buddy put plenty of 4200 around the hull and pipe on the inside of the boat, and push the top flange in place. Clean up excess 4200 and allow to set for several days.
10) Trim off excess pipe inside the boat - I used a cut off wheel on a dremel, followed by some fine wet or dry.
btb posted 01-26-2007 03:20 PM ET (US)
Now with Photos:
1) remove old drains by twisting them free, cleanup old caulk, lightly sand hull surfaces and clean with denatured alchohol.
2) Insert Sch. 40 pipe into hull and mark around pipe adjacent to hull to get hull angle.
3) Cut angle at end of pipe with miter saw and re-insert pipe in hull to verify angle - repeat using trial and error to get the angle right. I could set my miter saw at the exact angle, which was 12 degrees.
4) To make the lower angled flange, temporarily push a coupler fitting on the end of a length of pipe to make it easier to hold while cutting, and cut the end of the coupler to the hull angle - this will be the surface which will rest against the hull.
5) Remove the coupler, turn it 180 degrees, and glue the now angled end onto a suitable length of pipe, using primer and high quality PVC glue. See
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/Step5angledlowerflange.jpg
Drain components for the center drain - note slight angle of bottom flange
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/centerfishboxflangenoteangle.jpg

6) When set, make a cut parallel to and about 1/4" from the first angled cut - this is now the bottom flange. Shape the bottom of the flange using a sander then finer wet or dry to achieve a smooth, rounded finish. See this photo, for a finished lower flange for a different drain (less angle)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/finishedbottomflange.jpg
7) To make the top flange, cut a 1/4" slice out of another coupler, starting about 1/4" from the coupler end (the inside of the coupler is tapered and we want the slice from about 1/2 way up the coupler) Temporarily push this slice onto a piece of pipe to facilitate sanding, and sand this to a nice rounded profile. See
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/Step7topflange.jpg
8) "Butter" plenty of 4200 around the hole in the hull, top and bottom, and put plenty of 4200 around the pipe and top surface of the angled flange, and push the pipe up through the hull from the outside, rotating the pipe to set the flange flush against the hull. See finished and installed drain:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/12degreedraininstalled.jpg
9) While firmly holding the pipe in place, have a buddy put plenty of 4200 around the hull and pipe on the inside of the boat, and push the top flange in place. Clean up excess 4200 and allow to set for several days.
10) Trim off excess pipe inside the boat - I used a cut off wheel on a dremel, followed by some fine wet or dry.
HAPPYJIM posted 01-26-2007 04:48 PM ET (US)
Looks really good. Thanks for the pictures. I had a hard time seeing how it worked without them. I will do the same thing to my 19 foot Outrage soon.
HAPPYJIM posted 01-26-2007 04:51 PM ET (US)
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/Step5angledlowerflange.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/ centerfishboxflangenoteangle.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/finishedbottomflange.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/Step7topflange.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/12degreedraininstalled.jpg
A2J15Sport posted 01-27-2007 05:13 PM ET (US)
I'll catch it for this.
I think that is a much better solution than the brass drain tubes. There is no o'ring to be concerned with, no tools to buy, it is seamless (like brass tube), impervious to corrosion and schedule 40 is very tough stuff. It should last forever.
kingfish posted 01-27-2007 05:49 PM ET (US)
Hard to argue that - I think the PVC solution has been around as a viable alternative for a while now (and is supplied on the newer Whalers I believe).
John
kingfish posted 01-27-2007 05:50 PM ET (US)
I meant to add that you did a nice job of describing the process and recording it with photos, btb.
John
protek9543 posted 01-28-2007 11:33 AM ET (US)
I did the same thing on my Grady White except I ruffed up the pvc and epoxied it in.
John
kris22rev posted 02-02-2007 11:24 PM ET (US)
What size boat was this done on? would this hold up to rubs on the bunks of a trailer? With a large whaler (22 revenge)? I think I may be able to kill two birds with one stone with this. I have been trying to think of ways to dry the hull (or see if there is water in there). If I pulled the drains and left them out, I just created an inspection hole and maybe a mitigation possibility.
myakka posted 02-03-2007 10:31 AM ET (US)
btb
The glue used, was it blue(heavy body, for wet conditions)?
Mike
A2J15Sport posted 02-04-2007 09:06 AM ET (US)
I am considering doing this.
I would need to replace three. The hull drain and both splashwell drains.
My question is. What does the inside diameter of the drain(s) end up being?
I am thinking 3/4". I have looked high and low for 3/4" drain plugs and can't find any.
bsmotril posted 02-04-2007 10:26 PM ET (US)
PVC does not get along with UV in sunlight over time, unless it has some coating like paint to protect it. BillS
where2 posted 02-04-2007 11:22 PM ET (US)
I'm curious what goes wrong with PVC over time in heavy UV sunlight??
The concrete filled 6" PVC pilings my dad has had holding his floating dock in place for the last 35-40 years are in amazing shape. They're slightly chalky after 35 years in the Florida UV sunshine. We might not get another 35 years out of them, but I'm installing a new set on my own dock to test the longevity of "New" 2006 model year PVC. Check back with me in 40 years, I'll tell you how we're doing on both sets of PVC.
I got 15 years out of the brass drain tube in the transom of my 15_Sport. If PVC lasts 15 years, is easier to locate and install, and costs $3 to purchase enough to do an entire boat, I think we have a viable alternative to brass.
Nice photos BTB. I guess I'm still the only one who would have used 5200.
devildog posted 02-05-2007 05:20 PM ET (US)
There's not too much harmful UV in my fishwells or under my hull.
devildog posted 02-05-2007 05:21 PM ET (US)
Nice job btb! Thanks for the well done description. I will make use of it.
Jeff
bsmotril posted 02-05-2007 07:32 PM ET (US)
PVC becomes brittle and cracks easily after many years exposure to sunlight. The PVC lining your pilings is backed by inches of concrete to support it and give it strength. That would make a bit of a difference in how big an impact it could take. In the bilge, it won't be an issue. But in a through hull where it is exposed on the hull, you're asking for trouble unless you use plastic made for outdoor exposure. Plain old PVC pipe does not have the UV stabilizers added when it is manufactured.
btb posted 02-06-2007 05:29 PM ET (US)
I used 1" schedule 40 pipe.
Glue was 1) P68 primer and 2) blue glue typically used for industrial sprinkler applications - both available at local irrigation suppliers.
A2J15Sport posted 02-06-2007 05:39 PM ET (US)
I really considered doing this. I have to replace two splashwell and one hull drain.
The hull drain is the issue. I can't find a plug that will fit the ID of 1"(OD)PVC.
btb posted 02-06-2007 09:29 PM ET (US)
One inch schedule 40 pvc pipe has an ID of 1" (.986", I just measured it).
A2J15Sport posted 02-07-2007 10:14 AM ET (US)
btb,
You're right. I just found it this morning at a local plumbing supply house. I'm sure the box stores have it too but I just don't like those places.
The project is back on track. I picked up a scrap piece, cleaner/glue and couplers for all of $6.00.
fpelton posted 02-11-2007 08:07 PM ET (US)
I have to replace the bilge drain on the 13SSL. I check at home depot and found 1" schedule 40. The innner diameter is MUCH larger than the current brass drain. My plug comes no where near fitting. I found 3/4 to be too small. Am I missing something, or are folks boring out the drain hole to almost 1 1/4 inch or so to fit the schedule 40?
Be gentle with me. This is my first time.
Thanks,
Bob
A2J15Sport posted 02-11-2007 09:39 PM ET (US)
fpelton,
Try Home Depot again. There is more than one wall thickness avaialable on PVC pipe.
If you cannot find anyone there (HD) to help you (more than likely) check out a local plumbing supply house.
btb posted 02-13-2007 11:43 AM ET (US)
fpelton, I don't know the size of your brass tubes, but yes, the internal diameter of the 1" schedule 40 IS bigger than even the standard Whaler pvc drains. But the drain plugs I had could be screwed down to fit, I think they were standard 1" plugs. I like Sch 40 because its really tough stuff - I can't vouch for the thin wall stuff, I know that stuff breaks all the time in sprinkler-type installations. Bill
fpelton posted 02-22-2007 08:10 AM ET (US)
The size of the through hole that I need is 1 foot long, 3/4 diameter. It is currently brass. It is the drain that runs horizontal, from behind the seat to the transom. When I look through it from the transom side, it actually arcs in the middle. How can I get the lod brass through hole out.
next, are folks replacing with 3/4 pvc as well or stepping up to 1".
Thanks again.
Bob
For those not reading all posts, I am working on a 13 SS ltd.
wilsona posted 11-14-2008 05:00 PM ET (US)
test
A2J15Sport posted 11-14-2008 05:11 PM ET (US)
I ended up using 1" thin wall schedule 40.
The old tubes were NOT easy to remove. You have to get a good bite on them with long nose vice grips and twist and pull.
The new tubes went in fairly easily.

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Author	Topic: Thru Hull Drains Replaced with PVC
btb	posted 01-24-2007 09:07 AM ET (US) I went ahead and replaced the poorly engineered and poorly installed Whaler snap drains, using Schedule 40 PVC. I decided to replace the 3 fish box drains on my whaler when I noticed one had crusted salt on the outside (I keep the boat in my garage). The boat had the plastic "snap drains" in, but they weren't installed well and one of them seeped. After buying replacement BW snap drains, I decided I could do better so I made a set from 1" Schedule 40 PVC. To accomodate the hull angle, I guesstimated the angle, used a miter saw to cut the tube at an angle, and through a couple of tries got the angle spot-on. I then cut the end of a piece of coupler at the same angle and installed it on a short length of tube using the primer and PVC glue. When dry, I cut the now one-piece tube/coupler at the same hull angle, leaving about 1/4" of the coupler attached to the tube. This resulted in a flare on the end of the tube, at the correct angle to fit flush against the underside of the hull. A bit of trimming of the end of the flare and I had a nice loooking rounded flare to mate up against the hull. i installed the new drain from outside the hull using 3M 4200. I made a second flare from another 1" coupler and slipped this over the end of the tube in the fishbox using 4200 and voila! I now have an essentially flush-fitting one piece thru hull which should last for a long time - schedule 40 is pretty tough.
HAPPYJIM	posted 01-24-2007 09:27 AM ET (US) Could you be so kind to post some pictures of this mod. That sure sounds easier and should last as long or longer than brass drain tubes.
btb	posted 01-24-2007 01:41 PM ET (US) Happy Jim - I would be happy to provide some how-to photos of this work, but unfortunately I have cleared everything up and thrown out all the bits and pieces. I will strive to take some useful pictures of the installation etc and post them somewhere you can see. In the meantime here are the steps I took: 1) remove old drains by twisting them free, cleanup old caulk, lightly sand hull surfaces and clean with denatured alchohol. 2) Insert Sch. 40 pipe into hull and mark around pipe adjacent to hull to get hull angle. 3) Cut angle at end of pipe with miter saw and re-insert pipe in hull to verify angle - repeat using trial and error to get the angle right. I could set my miter saw at the exact angle, which was 12 degrees. 4) To make the lower angled flange, temporarily push a coupler fitting on the end of a length of pipe to make it easier to hold while cutting, and cut the end of the coupler to the hull angle - this will be the surface which will rest against the hull. 5) Remove the coupler, turn it 180 degrees, and glue the now angled end onto a suitable length of pipe, using primer and high quality PVC glue. 6) When set, make a cut parallel to and about 1/4" from the first angled cut - this is now the bottom flange. Shape the bottom of the flange using a sander then finer wet or dry to achieve a smooth, rounded finish. 7) To make the top flange, cut a 1/4" slice out of another coupler, starting about 1/4" from the coupler end (the inside of the coupler is tapered and we want the slice from about 1/2 way up the coupler) Temporarily push this slice onto a piece of pipe to facilitate sanding, and sand this to a nice rounded profile. 8) "Butter" plenty of 4200 around the hole in the hull, top and bottom, and put plenty of 4200 around the pipe and top surface of the angled flange, and push the pipe up through the hull from the outside, rotating the pipe to set the flange flush against the hull. 9) While firmly holding the pipe in place, have a buddy put plenty of 4200 around the hull and pipe on the inside of the boat, and push the top flange in place. Clean up excess 4200 and allow to set for several days. 10) Trim off excess pipe inside the boat - I used a cut off wheel on a dremel, followed by some fine wet or dry.
btb	posted 01-26-2007 03:20 PM ET (US) Now with Photos: 1) remove old drains by twisting them free, cleanup old caulk, lightly sand hull surfaces and clean with denatured alchohol. 2) Insert Sch. 40 pipe into hull and mark around pipe adjacent to hull to get hull angle. 3) Cut angle at end of pipe with miter saw and re-insert pipe in hull to verify angle - repeat using trial and error to get the angle right. I could set my miter saw at the exact angle, which was 12 degrees. 4) To make the lower angled flange, temporarily push a coupler fitting on the end of a length of pipe to make it easier to hold while cutting, and cut the end of the coupler to the hull angle - this will be the surface which will rest against the hull. 5) Remove the coupler, turn it 180 degrees, and glue the now angled end onto a suitable length of pipe, using primer and high quality PVC glue. See http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/Step5angledlowerflange.jpg Drain components for the center drain - note slight angle of bottom flange http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/centerfishboxflangenoteangle.jpg 6) When set, make a cut parallel to and about 1/4" from the first angled cut - this is now the bottom flange. Shape the bottom of the flange using a sander then finer wet or dry to achieve a smooth, rounded finish. See this photo, for a finished lower flange for a different drain (less angle) http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/finishedbottomflange.jpg 7) To make the top flange, cut a 1/4" slice out of another coupler, starting about 1/4" from the coupler end (the inside of the coupler is tapered and we want the slice from about 1/2 way up the coupler) Temporarily push this slice onto a piece of pipe to facilitate sanding, and sand this to a nice rounded profile. See http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/Step7topflange.jpg 8) "Butter" plenty of 4200 around the hole in the hull, top and bottom, and put plenty of 4200 around the pipe and top surface of the angled flange, and push the pipe up through the hull from the outside, rotating the pipe to set the flange flush against the hull. See finished and installed drain: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/12degreedraininstalled.jpg 9) While firmly holding the pipe in place, have a buddy put plenty of 4200 around the hull and pipe on the inside of the boat, and push the top flange in place. Clean up excess 4200 and allow to set for several days. 10) Trim off excess pipe inside the boat - I used a cut off wheel on a dremel, followed by some fine wet or dry.
HAPPYJIM	posted 01-26-2007 04:48 PM ET (US) Looks really good. Thanks for the pictures. I had a hard time seeing how it worked without them. I will do the same thing to my 19 foot Outrage soon.
HAPPYJIM	posted 01-26-2007 04:51 PM ET (US) http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/Step5angledlowerflange.jpg http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/ centerfishboxflangenoteangle.jpg http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/finishedbottomflange.jpg http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/Step7topflange.jpg http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a2/rockefoe/12degreedraininstalled.jpg
A2J15Sport	posted 01-27-2007 05:13 PM ET (US) I'll catch it for this. I think that is a much better solution than the brass drain tubes. There is no o'ring to be concerned with, no tools to buy, it is seamless (like brass tube), impervious to corrosion and schedule 40 is very tough stuff. It should last forever.
kingfish	posted 01-27-2007 05:49 PM ET (US) Hard to argue that - I think the PVC solution has been around as a viable alternative for a while now (and is supplied on the newer Whalers I believe). John
kingfish	posted 01-27-2007 05:50 PM ET (US) I meant to add that you did a nice job of describing the process and recording it with photos, btb. John
protek9543	posted 01-28-2007 11:33 AM ET (US) I did the same thing on my Grady White except I ruffed up the pvc and epoxied it in. John
kris22rev	posted 02-02-2007 11:24 PM ET (US) What size boat was this done on? would this hold up to rubs on the bunks of a trailer? With a large whaler (22 revenge)? I think I may be able to kill two birds with one stone with this. I have been trying to think of ways to dry the hull (or see if there is water in there). If I pulled the drains and left them out, I just created an inspection hole and maybe a mitigation possibility.
myakka	posted 02-03-2007 10:31 AM ET (US) btb The glue used, was it blue(heavy body, for wet conditions)? Mike
A2J15Sport	posted 02-04-2007 09:06 AM ET (US) I am considering doing this. I would need to replace three. The hull drain and both splashwell drains. My question is. What does the inside diameter of the drain(s) end up being? I am thinking 3/4". I have looked high and low for 3/4" drain plugs and can't find any.
bsmotril	posted 02-04-2007 10:26 PM ET (US) PVC does not get along with UV in sunlight over time, unless it has some coating like paint to protect it. BillS
where2	posted 02-04-2007 11:22 PM ET (US) I'm curious what goes wrong with PVC over time in heavy UV sunlight?? The concrete filled 6" PVC pilings my dad has had holding his floating dock in place for the last 35-40 years are in amazing shape. They're slightly chalky after 35 years in the Florida UV sunshine. We might not get another 35 years out of them, but I'm installing a new set on my own dock to test the longevity of "New" 2006 model year PVC. Check back with me in 40 years, I'll tell you how we're doing on both sets of PVC. I got 15 years out of the brass drain tube in the transom of my 15_Sport. If PVC lasts 15 years, is easier to locate and install, and costs $3 to purchase enough to do an entire boat, I think we have a viable alternative to brass. Nice photos BTB. I guess I'm still the only one who would have used 5200.
devildog	posted 02-05-2007 05:20 PM ET (US) There's not too much harmful UV in my fishwells or under my hull.
devildog	posted 02-05-2007 05:21 PM ET (US) Nice job btb! Thanks for the well done description. I will make use of it. Jeff
bsmotril	posted 02-05-2007 07:32 PM ET (US) PVC becomes brittle and cracks easily after many years exposure to sunlight. The PVC lining your pilings is backed by inches of concrete to support it and give it strength. That would make a bit of a difference in how big an impact it could take. In the bilge, it won't be an issue. But in a through hull where it is exposed on the hull, you're asking for trouble unless you use plastic made for outdoor exposure. Plain old PVC pipe does not have the UV stabilizers added when it is manufactured.
btb	posted 02-06-2007 05:29 PM ET (US) I used 1" schedule 40 pipe. Glue was 1) P68 primer and 2) blue glue typically used for industrial sprinkler applications - both available at local irrigation suppliers.
A2J15Sport	posted 02-06-2007 05:39 PM ET (US) I really considered doing this. I have to replace two splashwell and one hull drain. The hull drain is the issue. I can't find a plug that will fit the ID of 1"(OD)PVC.
btb	posted 02-06-2007 09:29 PM ET (US) One inch schedule 40 pvc pipe has an ID of 1" (.986", I just measured it).
A2J15Sport	posted 02-07-2007 10:14 AM ET (US) btb, You're right. I just found it this morning at a local plumbing supply house. I'm sure the box stores have it too but I just don't like those places. The project is back on track. I picked up a scrap piece, cleaner/glue and couplers for all of $6.00.
fpelton	posted 02-11-2007 08:07 PM ET (US) I have to replace the bilge drain on the 13SSL. I check at home depot and found 1" schedule 40. The innner diameter is MUCH larger than the current brass drain. My plug comes no where near fitting. I found 3/4 to be too small. Am I missing something, or are folks boring out the drain hole to almost 1 1/4 inch or so to fit the schedule 40? Be gentle with me. This is my first time. Thanks, Bob
A2J15Sport	posted 02-11-2007 09:39 PM ET (US) fpelton, Try Home Depot again. There is more than one wall thickness avaialable on PVC pipe. If you cannot find anyone there (HD) to help you (more than likely) check out a local plumbing supply house.
btb	posted 02-13-2007 11:43 AM ET (US) fpelton, I don't know the size of your brass tubes, but yes, the internal diameter of the 1" schedule 40 IS bigger than even the standard Whaler pvc drains. But the drain plugs I had could be screwed down to fit, I think they were standard 1" plugs. I like Sch 40 because its really tough stuff - I can't vouch for the thin wall stuff, I know that stuff breaks all the time in sprinkler-type installations. Bill
fpelton	posted 02-22-2007 08:10 AM ET (US) The size of the through hole that I need is 1 foot long, 3/4 diameter. It is currently brass. It is the drain that runs horizontal, from behind the seat to the transom. When I look through it from the transom side, it actually arcs in the middle. How can I get the lod brass through hole out. next, are folks replacing with 3/4 pvc as well or stepping up to 1". Thanks again. Bob For those not reading all posts, I am working on a 13 SS ltd.
wilsona	posted 11-14-2008 05:00 PM ET (US) test
A2J15Sport	posted 11-14-2008 05:11 PM ET (US) I ended up using 1" thin wall schedule 40. The old tubes were NOT easy to remove. You have to get a good bite on them with long nose vice grips and twist and pull. The new tubes went in fairly easily.