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Author Topic:   Outboard Motor Use in Saltwater, Flushing

sidporters posted 01-19-2008 12:47 PM ET (US)
I am told [the Yamaha 150 TXRB outboard motor] can be used in saltwater, but you should flush it everytime you bring it out. Is there harm in leaving [the Yamaha 150 TXRB outboard motor] in a slip (saltwater) and only flushing it out when the season ends? Thanks for an input.
Tohsgib posted 01-20-2008 11:43 AM ET (US)
Before they had flush ports, all engines sat in a slip all season with salt in them. Now they have flush ports and as long as you can access a hose, you can flush it at the slip. Flushing increases the engine's life, but how much nobody knows. I have 25 year old engines that are saltwater only and run excellent.
jimh posted 01-20-2008 09:55 PM ET (US)
What is the water temperature of the saltwater? What is the climate in the area? Is the particular engine the "saltwater" model?
Tropical saltwater will probably cause more corrosion than very cold Arctic saltwater. A saltwater model engine will be more resistant to corrosion.
It was common for many manufacturers to offer special models with upgraded components for customers who intended to use them in saltwater. Lately it seems like manufacturers have just upgraded all their engines to use the saltwater components in the hope of improving their corrosion resistance.
Sal DiMercurio posted 01-20-2008 10:38 PM ET (US)
It is my understanding that Yamahas flush much better through the flushing ports, not through the muffs.
The was just a post on another site, about the tell tail water when the engine is running on muffs being quite warm.
2 Different Yamaha techs posted, saying the the engine flushes better through the screw in ports [ hose only, no muffs ], not while on the muffs.
One tech also said, there's more water volume going through the engine, while connected to the flush port, thus, a cleaner engine.
If this is true, there's no problem flushing the engine, while the boat is berthed, just screw in the hose, instead of trying to connect to the water intakes on the lower unit.
I say this because [ believe it or not ] some people don't even know there's a screw-in flushing hole just under the powerhead.
Bluejay15 posted 01-20-2008 11:25 PM ET (US)
I have a question about the fresh water flushing port on the yamahas. When you do this does the water pass through the thermostats? My thought is no because the engine is not at operating temp.
skiff posted 01-21-2008 11:18 AM ET (US)
I've had one Yamaha mechanic tell me that when you flush through the hose coming out just below the powerhead, the fresh water gets everywhere EXCEPT the water pump. He went on to say that that's the most important part anyway, as it's really the parts of the engine that get warm that need the flushing as that what attracts most of the corrosion. The water pump operates in a cool environment, and will likely be swapped out every couple of years anyway.
Tohsgib posted 01-22-2008 10:31 AM ET (US)
If you pull into the slip, unload your passengers and gear, and connect the hose, the thermos are still open. Just try and flush it before it sits more than 10-15 minutes.
Outraged767 posted 01-22-2008 06:13 PM ET (US)
My Yamaha mechanic said it was important to NOT run the engine while the hose was hooked up to the port. The water from the hose flows in reverse to clear out any debris that might have entered the engine. He said to flush the motor for 15 min with the engine off.
sternorama posted 01-22-2008 06:25 PM ET (US)
I hate repeating hearsay, but out of ignorance I will anyway; I hear there are check valves in the motor that allow the flushing water to get everywhere it needs to get (i.e. cooling passages behind the thermostats). Any mechanics or internet gurus can verify or point us to an exploded view of an example of one of these engines that would clear this up? Thanks.
Bluejay15 posted 01-22-2008 07:51 PM ET (US)
Outraged767
Yah, you are deffinetly right. You cannot run the engine while it is on the hose port. Your water pump will get fried because no water will be running through it. 15 minutes seems like a long time unless you're deliberitly trying to get out stuck debris. When I am done running my 150 saltwater series 2-stroke yamahas I hook it up and flush it for only a few minutes. With the water restrictinons we have I can only wash my boat for 15 minutes after use. It would be nice to see a blow up of the water jacket passages.
Tohsgib posted 01-23-2008 10:35 AM ET (US)
No check valves, no one way valves. Should not run engine on hose flush unless in the verticle position which would be stupid if at a slip because intake would be submerged and sucking in salt water. Hence if engine is tilted, you just flush, no run. If engine is warm, thermos are still open. If you flush engine for 15 minutes you waste about 13 minutes of your life that you could be doing something productive with.
placerville posted 01-23-2008 02:38 PM ET (US)
Our partnership boat Strike3 lives in the saltwater for 9 months of the year. At the end of the day we back our boat into the slip, tilt engine up, install ear muffs, turn water on, drop engine, run for 10-15 minutes, shut off engine, raise engine, shut off water.
It may be overkill, but in the 15 minutes we're flushing, we're unloading the boat and cleaning it up.
We have 650 trouble free hours on our Suzuki 140 and it's warranted until 2012. So we plan on putting a lot more hours on it.
Matt
Tohsgib posted 01-23-2008 03:10 PM ET (US)
Matt you are sucking in salt water when you tilt it back down with the muffs on so you are not really flushing out all the salt. Plus you would only have 600 hours on it if you only flushed it for 2 minutes ;). I made up a quick disconnect in Brass from ACE hardware. Just tilt engine, click hose into fitting and turn knob. When indicator is strong and tastes fresh, I give it about a minute and shut it down. You can flush for 3 hours or 3 minutes, it is not going to get any cleaner or fresher. When you tilt an outboard it drains itself so you are not really flushing it out like an I/O would be because there is no salt water in it to mix with. Yes an I/O etc has a few gallons of salt water in it, it might take a 10 minutes to get totally fresh. An outboard has none so it takes only until it fills the powerhead to start flushing, about 10 seconds.
ncy7d posted 01-23-2008 03:39 PM ET (US)
how often do you guys flush your outboards? What would happen if you used in salt water and did not flush? Would there be any noticable side effects the next time out? Or can you take the boat out a few times between flushings?
Bulldog posted 01-23-2008 05:09 PM ET (US)
My brother in law has a boat in a slip in Lewes ,Delaware and never flushes his engine, he bought used and has it three years now, it has a 2000 Yamaha Saltwater 200HP engine. Flushing will make your motor last longer not flushing will not destroy it real soon.....Jack
placerville posted 01-23-2008 05:12 PM ET (US)
Nick,
I know what you're saying about sucking in saltwater but as long as you have positive pressure from your hose to your muffs, and you never have the engine down without the water on, you wouldn't get any salt in the engine.
I like what you're saying about the brass connector. Is it a check valve or do you have a valve in the line?
Matt
Chuck Tribolet posted 01-23-2008 07:40 PM ET (US)
15 minutes has to be overkill. About three times the internal
volume of the engine should be fine. Watch how long it takes
before ALL the vents flow. 3x that, the salt is gone.
And the thermostat is going to close as soon as the cool fresh
water gets to it. MAYBE 10 seconds.
My Evinrude 90 gets flushed about five minutes when I get
home. 900 hours salt water on hours, 700 days, so far.

Chuck
Tohsgib posted 01-24-2008 11:38 AM ET (US)
NCY7D...before the 90's most engines did not have accessible flush ports. Our engines would get flushed at the end of the season when winterized...that was it. Never had a corrosion problem but since they mae it so easy to flush them now, why not? It only takes 2-15 minutes depending on your style.
Tohsgib posted 01-24-2008 11:39 AM ET (US)
Matt...yes it is actaully 3 parts and it does have a one way valve. You can use the cheap plastic one piece units but I did not want that hanging out of my engine, the brass looks professional.
MBAC posted 01-25-2008 02:48 AM ET (US)
We use all our outboards (9 of em) in the salt and flush them at the end of the season with a product called "salt away."
Got to do this while the engine is HOT. Very expensive but it did help one of our older engines right away. We also rinse all our gear and the boat while in the water with it every so often. Seems to be worth it.
-Bret
11',13', 21' Revenge
Tohsgib posted 01-25-2008 11:49 AM ET (US)
Has anyone tried salt away on clogged engines? I will make a new thread but figured I would ask. I just bought the kit($13) so I figured I would try it. I also heard the mixture is basically vinegar and something else like Dawn.
au posted 10-26-2009 03:59 PM ET (US)
Flushing my boat motor I just pull the boat out of the water and unscrew the flush line, and I use a 1 gallon pump spray bottle filled with salt away and insert the spray nozzle into the flush line. I then let it continue for about 45 seconds until water is not salty coming out of the motor. This will treat the motor until I get home and do a better flush out. In this way I feel that the salt cannot dry and build up inside the motor. Hope this helps with flush out advise.
pcrussell50 posted 11-04-2009 06:16 PM ET (US)
Tohsgib sez:

quote:
Before they had flush ports, all engines sat in a slip all season with salt in them. Now they have flush ports and as long as you can access a hose, you can flush it at the slip. Flushing increases the engine's life, but how much nobody knows. I have 25 year old engines that are saltwater only and run excellent.
+1 on that front. I have a 1959 Johnson Super Seahorse 35hp, that as far as I can tell has _always_ been used in salt water. The manual for it says that no special care or flushing is required for salt water use other than to wipe it down with an oily rag when you're done with it at the end of the day. I still flush it anyway with bunny ears and a garden hose, but still. It starts and runs great and has good compression. I'm thrilled with it. And yes, that is 1959, not a typo.
Peter
Santa Barbara, CA
RevengeFamily posted 11-05-2009 11:21 AM ET (US)
In all the engines I've repaired or rebuilt for either myself or customers, I've yet to see dried salt in any of the water passages. Salt will readily go back into solution if the water through the cooling passages does not contain a "saturated solution" of salt. And you'll never find a "saturated solution" to run your boat in.
Most components that make up our outboard motors blocks are made from aluminum. When aluminum oxidizes or "rusts", it turns into aluminum oxide which can appear to be clumps of dried salt.
If you have the capabiltiy to perform a fresh water rinse, then do it. I believe a 2 -3 minute rinse is sufficient to remove salt water from the cooling passages. Removing the salt residue will definately help prevent the aluminum oxide from forming. If you suspect your engine has not been properly flushed, running fresh water through it is not going to "melt" the aluminum oxide.
You will find that vinegar (a mild acid) will achieve the desired results if you have a coolant flow problem caused by restricted passage ways. The difficulty is trying to keep the vinegar in the engine block. I have had success by using a small diaphragm pump, a catch pan and a hose to constantly recycle the 3-4 gallons of vinegar through the block. It takes a few hours but is well worth the effort if the passage ways are fouled up.
ryland posted 11-05-2009 09:39 PM ET (US)
I am a little confused. Flush the engine through the screw in port, but leave the engine off? Risk damage if you turn the engine on? Anyone got a absolute final answer on this one?
tom976 posted 11-09-2009 12:39 PM ET (US)
If you have ever pulled a motor apart, you know why to flush it everytime. Corrosion isn't the problem in the motor, its the accumulation of salt in there. Over time it clogs up the passages and prevents the motor from properly cooling itself down. Ever pull out those thermostats? Ones that have been in way too long are usually crusted up with salt and restrict the water flow. Thermostats are an easy thing to change and fix if you neglect them, but when the salt accumulates around the head and cyclinder jackets its a pain in the *** to get out. Not to mention changing the seals around the head isn't the greatest project either....

Tohsgib posted 11-09-2009 12:47 PM ET (US)
That is usually not salt you are seeing, it is corroded metal. Becaus eit is white and grainy, people assume it is salt buildup. Most likely a form of aluminum oxide I believe. Vinegar or mild acid will take it away.
diveorfish posted 11-09-2009 03:13 PM ET (US)
I think flushing is important, but I have another question regarding flushing:
If you trailer your boat and pull it out of a saltwater ramp that doesn’t have water facilities, is it still effective to flush three hours later, maybe the next day, or must you get to a water source ASAP before the motor dries?
RevengeFamily posted 11-09-2009 10:03 PM ET (US)
diveorfish,
Of course the best for your engine would be to flush it at the ramp. However a couple hours later is not going to cause disasterous corrosion.
When you get home hook it to a hose and start her up for a few minutes. If any salt water has evaporated and left salt behind, the fresh water will re-suspend it and remove it from the passage ways.
Norm
Nauti Tauk posted 11-10-2009 04:19 PM ET (US)
If there is a freshwater ramp on your way home, just back the boat and trailer in and run the engine for a minute or so. This accomplishes two things,engine gets rinsed and so does the trailer.
bluewaterpirate posted 11-10-2009 04:30 PM ET (US)
or ... you can get yourself a horse trough. I run mine at least twice a month for about five minutes.
http://bluewaterpirate.phanfare.com/2159335_3155608#imageID=50590643
http://cdn-2-service.phanfare.com/images/ 4892322_2159335_50590677_WebSmall_3/ Image-4892322-50590677-2-WebSmall_0_957dce12eff35b5df39452073d7dd4c1_1
Tom

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Author	Topic: Outboard Motor Use in Saltwater, Flushing
sidporters	posted 01-19-2008 12:47 PM ET (US) I am told [the Yamaha 150 TXRB outboard motor] can be used in saltwater, but you should flush it everytime you bring it out. Is there harm in leaving [the Yamaha 150 TXRB outboard motor] in a slip (saltwater) and only flushing it out when the season ends? Thanks for an input.
Tohsgib	posted 01-20-2008 11:43 AM ET (US) Before they had flush ports, all engines sat in a slip all season with salt in them. Now they have flush ports and as long as you can access a hose, you can flush it at the slip. Flushing increases the engine's life, but how much nobody knows. I have 25 year old engines that are saltwater only and run excellent.
jimh	posted 01-20-2008 09:55 PM ET (US) What is the water temperature of the saltwater? What is the climate in the area? Is the particular engine the "saltwater" model? Tropical saltwater will probably cause more corrosion than very cold Arctic saltwater. A saltwater model engine will be more resistant to corrosion. It was common for many manufacturers to offer special models with upgraded components for customers who intended to use them in saltwater. Lately it seems like manufacturers have just upgraded all their engines to use the saltwater components in the hope of improving their corrosion resistance.
Sal DiMercurio	posted 01-20-2008 10:38 PM ET (US) It is my understanding that Yamahas flush much better through the flushing ports, not through the muffs. The was just a post on another site, about the tell tail water when the engine is running on muffs being quite warm. 2 Different Yamaha techs posted, saying the the engine flushes better through the screw in ports [ hose only, no muffs ], not while on the muffs. One tech also said, there's more water volume going through the engine, while connected to the flush port, thus, a cleaner engine. If this is true, there's no problem flushing the engine, while the boat is berthed, just screw in the hose, instead of trying to connect to the water intakes on the lower unit. I say this because [ believe it or not ] some people don't even know there's a screw-in flushing hole just under the powerhead.
Bluejay15	posted 01-20-2008 11:25 PM ET (US) I have a question about the fresh water flushing port on the yamahas. When you do this does the water pass through the thermostats? My thought is no because the engine is not at operating temp.
skiff	posted 01-21-2008 11:18 AM ET (US) I've had one Yamaha mechanic tell me that when you flush through the hose coming out just below the powerhead, the fresh water gets everywhere EXCEPT the water pump. He went on to say that that's the most important part anyway, as it's really the parts of the engine that get warm that need the flushing as that what attracts most of the corrosion. The water pump operates in a cool environment, and will likely be swapped out every couple of years anyway.
Tohsgib	posted 01-22-2008 10:31 AM ET (US) If you pull into the slip, unload your passengers and gear, and connect the hose, the thermos are still open. Just try and flush it before it sits more than 10-15 minutes.
Outraged767	posted 01-22-2008 06:13 PM ET (US) My Yamaha mechanic said it was important to NOT run the engine while the hose was hooked up to the port. The water from the hose flows in reverse to clear out any debris that might have entered the engine. He said to flush the motor for 15 min with the engine off.
sternorama	posted 01-22-2008 06:25 PM ET (US) I hate repeating hearsay, but out of ignorance I will anyway; I hear there are check valves in the motor that allow the flushing water to get everywhere it needs to get (i.e. cooling passages behind the thermostats). Any mechanics or internet gurus can verify or point us to an exploded view of an example of one of these engines that would clear this up? Thanks.
Bluejay15	posted 01-22-2008 07:51 PM ET (US) Outraged767 Yah, you are deffinetly right. You cannot run the engine while it is on the hose port. Your water pump will get fried because no water will be running through it. 15 minutes seems like a long time unless you're deliberitly trying to get out stuck debris. When I am done running my 150 saltwater series 2-stroke yamahas I hook it up and flush it for only a few minutes. With the water restrictinons we have I can only wash my boat for 15 minutes after use. It would be nice to see a blow up of the water jacket passages.
Tohsgib	posted 01-23-2008 10:35 AM ET (US) No check valves, no one way valves. Should not run engine on hose flush unless in the verticle position which would be stupid if at a slip because intake would be submerged and sucking in salt water. Hence if engine is tilted, you just flush, no run. If engine is warm, thermos are still open. If you flush engine for 15 minutes you waste about 13 minutes of your life that you could be doing something productive with.
placerville	posted 01-23-2008 02:38 PM ET (US) Our partnership boat Strike3 lives in the saltwater for 9 months of the year. At the end of the day we back our boat into the slip, tilt engine up, install ear muffs, turn water on, drop engine, run for 10-15 minutes, shut off engine, raise engine, shut off water. It may be overkill, but in the 15 minutes we're flushing, we're unloading the boat and cleaning it up. We have 650 trouble free hours on our Suzuki 140 and it's warranted until 2012. So we plan on putting a lot more hours on it. Matt
Tohsgib	posted 01-23-2008 03:10 PM ET (US) Matt you are sucking in salt water when you tilt it back down with the muffs on so you are not really flushing out all the salt. Plus you would only have 600 hours on it if you only flushed it for 2 minutes ;). I made up a quick disconnect in Brass from ACE hardware. Just tilt engine, click hose into fitting and turn knob. When indicator is strong and tastes fresh, I give it about a minute and shut it down. You can flush for 3 hours or 3 minutes, it is not going to get any cleaner or fresher. When you tilt an outboard it drains itself so you are not really flushing it out like an I/O would be because there is no salt water in it to mix with. Yes an I/O etc has a few gallons of salt water in it, it might take a 10 minutes to get totally fresh. An outboard has none so it takes only until it fills the powerhead to start flushing, about 10 seconds.
ncy7d	posted 01-23-2008 03:39 PM ET (US) how often do you guys flush your outboards? What would happen if you used in salt water and did not flush? Would there be any noticable side effects the next time out? Or can you take the boat out a few times between flushings?
Bulldog	posted 01-23-2008 05:09 PM ET (US) My brother in law has a boat in a slip in Lewes ,Delaware and never flushes his engine, he bought used and has it three years now, it has a 2000 Yamaha Saltwater 200HP engine. Flushing will make your motor last longer not flushing will not destroy it real soon.....Jack
placerville	posted 01-23-2008 05:12 PM ET (US) Nick, I know what you're saying about sucking in saltwater but as long as you have positive pressure from your hose to your muffs, and you never have the engine down without the water on, you wouldn't get any salt in the engine. I like what you're saying about the brass connector. Is it a check valve or do you have a valve in the line? Matt
Chuck Tribolet	posted 01-23-2008 07:40 PM ET (US) 15 minutes has to be overkill. About three times the internal volume of the engine should be fine. Watch how long it takes before ALL the vents flow. 3x that, the salt is gone. And the thermostat is going to close as soon as the cool fresh water gets to it. MAYBE 10 seconds. My Evinrude 90 gets flushed about five minutes when I get home. 900 hours salt water on hours, 700 days, so far. Chuck
Tohsgib	posted 01-24-2008 11:38 AM ET (US) NCY7D...before the 90's most engines did not have accessible flush ports. Our engines would get flushed at the end of the season when winterized...that was it. Never had a corrosion problem but since they mae it so easy to flush them now, why not? It only takes 2-15 minutes depending on your style.
Tohsgib	posted 01-24-2008 11:39 AM ET (US) Matt...yes it is actaully 3 parts and it does have a one way valve. You can use the cheap plastic one piece units but I did not want that hanging out of my engine, the brass looks professional.
MBAC	posted 01-25-2008 02:48 AM ET (US) We use all our outboards (9 of em) in the salt and flush them at the end of the season with a product called "salt away." Got to do this while the engine is HOT. Very expensive but it did help one of our older engines right away. We also rinse all our gear and the boat while in the water with it every so often. Seems to be worth it. -Bret 11',13', 21' Revenge
Tohsgib	posted 01-25-2008 11:49 AM ET (US) Has anyone tried salt away on clogged engines? I will make a new thread but figured I would ask. I just bought the kit($13) so I figured I would try it. I also heard the mixture is basically vinegar and something else like Dawn.
au	posted 10-26-2009 03:59 PM ET (US) Flushing my boat motor I just pull the boat out of the water and unscrew the flush line, and I use a 1 gallon pump spray bottle filled with salt away and insert the spray nozzle into the flush line. I then let it continue for about 45 seconds until water is not salty coming out of the motor. This will treat the motor until I get home and do a better flush out. In this way I feel that the salt cannot dry and build up inside the motor. Hope this helps with flush out advise.
pcrussell50	posted 11-04-2009 06:16 PM ET (US) Tohsgib sez: quote: Before they had flush ports, all engines sat in a slip all season with salt in them. Now they have flush ports and as long as you can access a hose, you can flush it at the slip. Flushing increases the engine's life, but how much nobody knows. I have 25 year old engines that are saltwater only and run excellent. +1 on that front. I have a 1959 Johnson Super Seahorse 35hp, that as far as I can tell has _always_ been used in salt water. The manual for it says that no special care or flushing is required for salt water use other than to wipe it down with an oily rag when you're done with it at the end of the day. I still flush it anyway with bunny ears and a garden hose, but still. It starts and runs great and has good compression. I'm thrilled with it. And yes, that is 1959, not a typo. Peter Santa Barbara, CA
RevengeFamily	posted 11-05-2009 11:21 AM ET (US) In all the engines I've repaired or rebuilt for either myself or customers, I've yet to see dried salt in any of the water passages. Salt will readily go back into solution if the water through the cooling passages does not contain a "saturated solution" of salt. And you'll never find a "saturated solution" to run your boat in. Most components that make up our outboard motors blocks are made from aluminum. When aluminum oxidizes or "rusts", it turns into aluminum oxide which can appear to be clumps of dried salt. If you have the capabiltiy to perform a fresh water rinse, then do it. I believe a 2 -3 minute rinse is sufficient to remove salt water from the cooling passages. Removing the salt residue will definately help prevent the aluminum oxide from forming. If you suspect your engine has not been properly flushed, running fresh water through it is not going to "melt" the aluminum oxide. You will find that vinegar (a mild acid) will achieve the desired results if you have a coolant flow problem caused by restricted passage ways. The difficulty is trying to keep the vinegar in the engine block. I have had success by using a small diaphragm pump, a catch pan and a hose to constantly recycle the 3-4 gallons of vinegar through the block. It takes a few hours but is well worth the effort if the passage ways are fouled up.
ryland	posted 11-05-2009 09:39 PM ET (US) I am a little confused. Flush the engine through the screw in port, but leave the engine off? Risk damage if you turn the engine on? Anyone got a absolute final answer on this one?
tom976	posted 11-09-2009 12:39 PM ET (US) If you have ever pulled a motor apart, you know why to flush it everytime. Corrosion isn't the problem in the motor, its the accumulation of salt in there. Over time it clogs up the passages and prevents the motor from properly cooling itself down. Ever pull out those thermostats? Ones that have been in way too long are usually crusted up with salt and restrict the water flow. Thermostats are an easy thing to change and fix if you neglect them, but when the salt accumulates around the head and cyclinder jackets its a pain in the *** to get out. Not to mention changing the seals around the head isn't the greatest project either....
Tohsgib	posted 11-09-2009 12:47 PM ET (US) That is usually not salt you are seeing, it is corroded metal. Becaus eit is white and grainy, people assume it is salt buildup. Most likely a form of aluminum oxide I believe. Vinegar or mild acid will take it away.
diveorfish	posted 11-09-2009 03:13 PM ET (US) I think flushing is important, but I have another question regarding flushing: If you trailer your boat and pull it out of a saltwater ramp that doesn’t have water facilities, is it still effective to flush three hours later, maybe the next day, or must you get to a water source ASAP before the motor dries?
RevengeFamily	posted 11-09-2009 10:03 PM ET (US) diveorfish, Of course the best for your engine would be to flush it at the ramp. However a couple hours later is not going to cause disasterous corrosion. When you get home hook it to a hose and start her up for a few minutes. If any salt water has evaporated and left salt behind, the fresh water will re-suspend it and remove it from the passage ways. Norm
Nauti Tauk	posted 11-10-2009 04:19 PM ET (US) If there is a freshwater ramp on your way home, just back the boat and trailer in and run the engine for a minute or so. This accomplishes two things,engine gets rinsed and so does the trailer.
bluewaterpirate	posted 11-10-2009 04:30 PM ET (US) or ... you can get yourself a horse trough. I run mine at least twice a month for about five minutes. http://bluewaterpirate.phanfare.com/2159335_3155608#imageID=50590643 http://cdn-2-service.phanfare.com/images/ 4892322_2159335_50590677_WebSmall_3/ Image-4892322-50590677-2-WebSmall_0_957dce12eff35b5df39452073d7dd4c1_1 Tom