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Author Topic:   Suprise Under Rub Rail

njwlog posted 07-19-2008 07:11 PM ET (US)
I am trying to restore a well worn late 1980's Super Sport 13 and got a little surprise after ripping off the rub rail.
http://webpages.charter.net/njwlog
Any thoughts on how to deal with this?
Since [joint failure] is under the rub rail can I get away with just grinding down [the laminate] and then building it back up with epoxy?
Is there anything special if have to do at the joint where the horizontal top of the sideboard meets the vertical [hull sides] since it appears there is not gel coat in this location in the untouched areas?
Since it is such a nightmare to remove the caulking and sealant holding the rub rail in place, why is it so commonly done?
Any thoughts or help would be appreciated.
Tele65 posted 07-19-2008 07:22 PM ET (US)
Wah!
Bad...
Sure the boat had some trouble in his life, and sure it's a repainted boat (looks at the second pics: the decal shows how the paint goes around the letters) Any info about the temperature of her usual living place? I guess it's repairable anyway, I'm confident you'll find more than an help here. Good luck!
Fabio
seabob4 posted 07-19-2008 07:30 PM ET (US)
Well, for one thing, this is the most critical joint in the entire boat, regardless of the manufacturer. The hull-to-deck joint. Secondly, it exposes weak areas on your boat that you should pay very close attention to. It kind of reminds me of all the gawkers at Miami or Lauderdale that look at all the "foo-fraw", instead of sticking their heads in places builders don't want you to see. Including BW.
So, that being said, grind down to fresh glass, build back up with glass, fair smooth, install your new rubrail, and off you go. Now, how would you feel about your boat if you DIDN'T pull off that rubrail?
Dave Thomas posted 07-20-2008 07:24 AM ET (US)
I had the same problem as you but not to the extreme you have. http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg226/LGT1941/Gunwale/DSC00491.jpg
njwlog posted 07-20-2008 10:29 AM ET (US)
Thanks for commiserating with me.
I guess my main question is how to treat this joint since the factory joint looks like its glued together rather than fiberglassed.
jimh posted 07-20-2008 10:48 AM ET (US)
I can provide the following thoughts and help:
Those gunwales seem awfully wide. Perhaps it is the close-up photo, but they look wider than I would anticipate for a Boston Whaler. Compare at:
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/13/models.html#superSport
Please show us a wider view so we can see more of the wide gunwale structure.
A Boston Whaler boat from c.1988 did not use a rub rail system which was attached with an adhesive. For information about the rub rail system, see the article in the REFERENCE section:
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/rubRail.html
For advice on repair techniques related to Boston Whaler boats, also see the REFERENCE section:
Repairing Hull Damage the Whaler Way
by Taylor Clark
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/whalerRepair.html
and
Factory Repair Instructions
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/repairInstructions.html
njwlog posted 07-20-2008 01:39 PM ET (US)
I posted two more pictures to the site, one from further back to see the scale of the gunwale and another closeup of the deck/hull joint that is in good condition.
The hull is a 1989 13 Super Sport.
So are you saying there is nothing special that needs to be done with this joint and that I should just follow the normal BW repair procedure and fiberglass the joint just as if it was anywhere else on the hull?
Thanks for the reponse.
Tohsgib posted 07-21-2008 11:37 AM ET (US)
I have seen hackjobs like that from the factory. Helped a friend replace a rubrail and low and behold there was a shongo epoxy fill on about 20% of his runrail length. Had to be done at factory since this was original runbrail and never removed.
Repair it the best you can and get her back on the water.
Dave Thomas posted 07-21-2008 04:18 PM ET (US)
To get back to the gunwales and what I did. I ground down the gel coat at the top and the side and covered it with 4 layers of fiberglass tape,1inch, 2inch and 2 of 4inch. This has to be solid enough to mechanicaly fasten the rub rail to. I don't want to have to do it again. That edge takes alot of contact with piles floats you name it. Good luck with your work!
andygere posted 07-21-2008 06:25 PM ET (US)

quote:
Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools. I can fix it. - Jeff Spicoli

Best: Fiberglass tape and epoxy
Good enough, and faster: Fiberglass tape and polyester resin.
I'd say a minimum of 2 layers of 4 oz. tape, 3 or 4 would be better. 6 oz. or heavier tape is harder to bond in a nice 90 degree crease without a lot of bubbles or wrinkles. Mask off carefully before you grind (duct tape acts as an "early warning barrier when grinding), and again before you laminate, and you will be able to hide it under the rubrail again. Only remove enough material to get a good bond. This will save a lot of work in gelcoat repairs, and still leave a solid, cosmetically appealing repair.
njwlog posted 07-22-2008 10:27 AM ET (US)
I called Boston Whaler customer service to explain my repair. They connected me to a guy who knows about the manufacturing process and repairs. He said they refer to this joint as the "weld" between the hull and the top deck. He said the repair technique is no different than for other areas except to use 1 to 2 oz fiberglass to make the 90 degree angle.
I'll keep everyone posted on how it goes. thx for the input.
andygere posted 07-22-2008 11:40 AM ET (US)
The advice on light weight glass is good, it can be difficult to get heavier weight glass to make the bend without bubbles. Lightweight fiberglass seam tape is hard to find, but it's worth getting because it's much easier to work with for a seam repair like this. If you can get bias tape, so much the better, because it it much easier to get it to conform to the 90 degree seam.
If there is a lot of material missing (eg. foam) beneath the repair area, you may want to fill it with an epoxy based filler (assuming you are using epoxy) or a polyester based filler (if you are using polyester resin) to get a flat surface to bond the glass to. For epoxy, I like the System 3 products. The Quikfair fairing putty would do a good job of filling gaps so that all the resin does not drain out of your lamination when you glass. http://www.systemthree.com/p_st_quikfair.asp
Here's another tip when you laminate: Use a high quality masking tape to delineate the boundaries of the repair (just a fraction inside of the the rub-rail). Laminate the fiberglass tape or cloth with a slight overlap over the masking tape. When the glass reaches the "green" stage, (partially cured but not hard), use a new razor blade to trim the glass just inside of the tape line. This will save a lot of sanding, and make a neat, clean repair. Don't worry if the glass lifts a bit, just use a plastic spreader to tack it back down. Also, a small grooved roller is handy for getting bubbles out of the glass once it's wet out. You can get these from fiberglass supply houses such as Fiberglass Supply. Use something like item T13-8549 from http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/LaminatingTools/ laminatingtools.html
Final tip: For the fastest repair, use a UV cure polyester resin. Since polyester is what the boat is built from, I think it is plenty strong, and the advantages of epoxy are minimal. It wets out the glass easier than epoxy, and it's also a lot cheaper and faster. If the boat is on a trailer, you can laminate inside the garage (with no sunlight coming in) and have virtually unlimited pot time. Once the lamination is complete, roll the boat out into the sunshine, and it will be green in about 3 minutes, and cured hard in 10 or 15. This will allow several laminations in a short period of time. Surf shops often have it, but often at premium prices for small quantities. Here's a low cost source for this material: Item E32-2475 at http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Polyester_Resins/ polyester_resins.html
Although it's a bummer to find this sort of hidden damage, in a weekend you can make a good repair, and have a solid boat that will give you many years of good service.

Dave Thomas posted 07-22-2008 11:42 AM ET (US)
Maybe I'm wrong but I was lead to believe the weights ( 1 to 2OZ) was suppose to be by the yard. That is really thin stuff. I don't see what that will do.
Dave Thomas posted 07-22-2008 11:48 AM ET (US)
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg226/LGT1941/Gunwale/DSC00498.jpg

Here is the way I kept the glass and epoxy tight around the bend. I ripped a piece of wood and covered it with a piece of mylar packing tape and clamped it in place. No air bubbles or voids. All layers were 8 oz tape.
andygere posted 07-22-2008 01:49 PM ET (US)
Fiberglass is indeed graded in ounces per square yard, and several laminations of 2 oz. cloth/tape would be needed. These can be done a few at a time, with dry glass tacked in place with a dab of resin every foot or so, then wet out all at once. 4-2 oz. layers will provide more strength than a single 8 oz. layer, with a much higher glass to resin ratio.
Dave's clamping method looks good, but in this repair, the glass tape needs to bend over a 90 degree angle, so there is about an inch of tape on top of the gunwale, and an about an inch in the outside of the gunwale, making a strong joint where the hull liner meets the outer hull. Also, if UV cure resin is used, the clamping strap won't let the light in to cure the resin.

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Author	Topic: Suprise Under Rub Rail
njwlog	posted 07-19-2008 07:11 PM ET (US) I am trying to restore a well worn late 1980's Super Sport 13 and got a little surprise after ripping off the rub rail. http://webpages.charter.net/njwlog Any thoughts on how to deal with this? Since [joint failure] is under the rub rail can I get away with just grinding down [the laminate] and then building it back up with epoxy? Is there anything special if have to do at the joint where the horizontal top of the sideboard meets the vertical [hull sides] since it appears there is not gel coat in this location in the untouched areas? Since it is such a nightmare to remove the caulking and sealant holding the rub rail in place, why is it so commonly done? Any thoughts or help would be appreciated.
Tele65	posted 07-19-2008 07:22 PM ET (US) Wah! Bad... Sure the boat had some trouble in his life, and sure it's a repainted boat (looks at the second pics: the decal shows how the paint goes around the letters) Any info about the temperature of her usual living place? I guess it's repairable anyway, I'm confident you'll find more than an help here. Good luck! Fabio
seabob4	posted 07-19-2008 07:30 PM ET (US) Well, for one thing, this is the most critical joint in the entire boat, regardless of the manufacturer. The hull-to-deck joint. Secondly, it exposes weak areas on your boat that you should pay very close attention to. It kind of reminds me of all the gawkers at Miami or Lauderdale that look at all the "foo-fraw", instead of sticking their heads in places builders don't want you to see. Including BW. So, that being said, grind down to fresh glass, build back up with glass, fair smooth, install your new rubrail, and off you go. Now, how would you feel about your boat if you DIDN'T pull off that rubrail?
Dave Thomas	posted 07-20-2008 07:24 AM ET (US) I had the same problem as you but not to the extreme you have. http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg226/LGT1941/Gunwale/DSC00491.jpg
njwlog	posted 07-20-2008 10:29 AM ET (US) Thanks for commiserating with me. I guess my main question is how to treat this joint since the factory joint looks like its glued together rather than fiberglassed.
jimh	posted 07-20-2008 10:48 AM ET (US) I can provide the following thoughts and help: Those gunwales seem awfully wide. Perhaps it is the close-up photo, but they look wider than I would anticipate for a Boston Whaler. Compare at: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/13/models.html#superSport Please show us a wider view so we can see more of the wide gunwale structure. A Boston Whaler boat from c.1988 did not use a rub rail system which was attached with an adhesive. For information about the rub rail system, see the article in the REFERENCE section: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/rubRail.html For advice on repair techniques related to Boston Whaler boats, also see the REFERENCE section: Repairing Hull Damage the Whaler Way by Taylor Clark http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/whalerRepair.html and Factory Repair Instructions http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/repairInstructions.html
njwlog	posted 07-20-2008 01:39 PM ET (US) I posted two more pictures to the site, one from further back to see the scale of the gunwale and another closeup of the deck/hull joint that is in good condition. The hull is a 1989 13 Super Sport. So are you saying there is nothing special that needs to be done with this joint and that I should just follow the normal BW repair procedure and fiberglass the joint just as if it was anywhere else on the hull? Thanks for the reponse.
Tohsgib	posted 07-21-2008 11:37 AM ET (US) I have seen hackjobs like that from the factory. Helped a friend replace a rubrail and low and behold there was a shongo epoxy fill on about 20% of his runrail length. Had to be done at factory since this was original runbrail and never removed. Repair it the best you can and get her back on the water.
Dave Thomas	posted 07-21-2008 04:18 PM ET (US) To get back to the gunwales and what I did. I ground down the gel coat at the top and the side and covered it with 4 layers of fiberglass tape,1inch, 2inch and 2 of 4inch. This has to be solid enough to mechanicaly fasten the rub rail to. I don't want to have to do it again. That edge takes alot of contact with piles floats you name it. Good luck with your work!
andygere	posted 07-21-2008 06:25 PM ET (US) quote: Relax, all right? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools. I can fix it. - Jeff Spicoli Best: Fiberglass tape and epoxy Good enough, and faster: Fiberglass tape and polyester resin. I'd say a minimum of 2 layers of 4 oz. tape, 3 or 4 would be better. 6 oz. or heavier tape is harder to bond in a nice 90 degree crease without a lot of bubbles or wrinkles. Mask off carefully before you grind (duct tape acts as an "early warning barrier when grinding), and again before you laminate, and you will be able to hide it under the rubrail again. Only remove enough material to get a good bond. This will save a lot of work in gelcoat repairs, and still leave a solid, cosmetically appealing repair.
njwlog	posted 07-22-2008 10:27 AM ET (US) I called Boston Whaler customer service to explain my repair. They connected me to a guy who knows about the manufacturing process and repairs. He said they refer to this joint as the "weld" between the hull and the top deck. He said the repair technique is no different than for other areas except to use 1 to 2 oz fiberglass to make the 90 degree angle. I'll keep everyone posted on how it goes. thx for the input.
andygere	posted 07-22-2008 11:40 AM ET (US) The advice on light weight glass is good, it can be difficult to get heavier weight glass to make the bend without bubbles. Lightweight fiberglass seam tape is hard to find, but it's worth getting because it's much easier to work with for a seam repair like this. If you can get bias tape, so much the better, because it it much easier to get it to conform to the 90 degree seam. If there is a lot of material missing (eg. foam) beneath the repair area, you may want to fill it with an epoxy based filler (assuming you are using epoxy) or a polyester based filler (if you are using polyester resin) to get a flat surface to bond the glass to. For epoxy, I like the System 3 products. The Quikfair fairing putty would do a good job of filling gaps so that all the resin does not drain out of your lamination when you glass. http://www.systemthree.com/p_st_quikfair.asp Here's another tip when you laminate: Use a high quality masking tape to delineate the boundaries of the repair (just a fraction inside of the the rub-rail). Laminate the fiberglass tape or cloth with a slight overlap over the masking tape. When the glass reaches the "green" stage, (partially cured but not hard), use a new razor blade to trim the glass just inside of the tape line. This will save a lot of sanding, and make a neat, clean repair. Don't worry if the glass lifts a bit, just use a plastic spreader to tack it back down. Also, a small grooved roller is handy for getting bubbles out of the glass once it's wet out. You can get these from fiberglass supply houses such as Fiberglass Supply. Use something like item T13-8549 from http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/LaminatingTools/ laminatingtools.html Final tip: For the fastest repair, use a UV cure polyester resin. Since polyester is what the boat is built from, I think it is plenty strong, and the advantages of epoxy are minimal. It wets out the glass easier than epoxy, and it's also a lot cheaper and faster. If the boat is on a trailer, you can laminate inside the garage (with no sunlight coming in) and have virtually unlimited pot time. Once the lamination is complete, roll the boat out into the sunshine, and it will be green in about 3 minutes, and cured hard in 10 or 15. This will allow several laminations in a short period of time. Surf shops often have it, but often at premium prices for small quantities. Here's a low cost source for this material: Item E32-2475 at http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Polyester_Resins/ polyester_resins.html Although it's a bummer to find this sort of hidden damage, in a weekend you can make a good repair, and have a solid boat that will give you many years of good service.
Dave Thomas	posted 07-22-2008 11:42 AM ET (US) Maybe I'm wrong but I was lead to believe the weights ( 1 to 2OZ) was suppose to be by the yard. That is really thin stuff. I don't see what that will do.
Dave Thomas	posted 07-22-2008 11:48 AM ET (US) http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg226/LGT1941/Gunwale/DSC00498.jpg Here is the way I kept the glass and epoxy tight around the bend. I ripped a piece of wood and covered it with a piece of mylar packing tape and clamped it in place. No air bubbles or voids. All layers were 8 oz tape.
andygere	posted 07-22-2008 01:49 PM ET (US) Fiberglass is indeed graded in ounces per square yard, and several laminations of 2 oz. cloth/tape would be needed. These can be done a few at a time, with dry glass tacked in place with a dab of resin every foot or so, then wet out all at once. 4-2 oz. layers will provide more strength than a single 8 oz. layer, with a much higher glass to resin ratio. Dave's clamping method looks good, but in this repair, the glass tape needs to bend over a 90 degree angle, so there is about an inch of tape on top of the gunwale, and an about an inch in the outside of the gunwale, making a strong joint where the hull liner meets the outer hull. Also, if UV cure resin is used, the clamping strap won't let the light in to cure the resin.