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Author Topic:   2000 Evinrude 225 FICHT Starting Problem

RayD posted 01-01-2009 03:54 PM ET (US)
Have an 2000 Evinrude Ficht 225 with a starting problem. Motor has been very reliable. By way of background, I did just have the engine management module (EMM) in this motor reconditioned and new software loaded over the summer. Hoping someone might be able to lend some insight, as I am stumped.
Boat equipped with twins, starboard motor runs fine, port is the issue.
Ignition switch turned to run, fuel pump runs as it should, and when ignition turned to start, motor cranks with no problems. The motor seems to catch, but will not continue to run. It acts as if the key is being turned off, rather than hesitating and dying, etc. My initial reaction was fuel starvation or lack of spark. Motor was running fine last week - moving along at 4000 rpm on both engines and port simply died.
- I just replaced plugs on both motors, gapped at .28, indexed properly
- Replaced fuel filters - no shavings or contaminants (including water) in fuel
- Confirmed fuel is flowing from main tank through filter into primary fuel pump
- Ran diagnostic software, no codes.
- Spark test on all cylinders seems to be ok
- injector test on all cylinders seems to be ok (I at least was able to verify EMM is communicating with each injector as "clicking" of injector mechanism seems to be in order.)
- Ran fuel pump test through software and seems to be working
- Ran oil pump test through software and seems to be working
- I have check all fuses in the power distribution panel
The only wrinkle in all of this is that I was trimming the port engine at the helm when the motor died. I pulled the throttle apart and did find a worn wire, which i have since fixed. I thought that this could have possibly shorted the ignition switch, but once repaired it does not seem to have made any difference.

I am stumped. Could it be the fuel lift pump? Any thoughts and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
RayD
Peter posted 01-01-2009 04:59 PM ET (US)
How about something as simple as a bad kill switch for the port motor?
RayD posted 01-01-2009 05:05 PM ET (US)
Tested the kill - it governs both motors and does not allow cranking at all. I am able to start the starboard motor fine, and port cranks, but will not stay lit.
Peter posted 01-01-2009 05:47 PM ET (US)
I would go through the trouble shooting checklist of my service manual but won't have access for a few days.
kingbuster posted 01-01-2009 09:42 PM ET (US)
Make sure your batteries are fully charged, also check battery voltage at the starter soleniod while cranking. The voltage shouldn't drop below 9.5 volts; if it does check and clean both battery connections, battery cables, and starter.
dbrown posted 01-01-2009 11:54 PM ET (US)
Since you were trimming the port engine when the motor died, then I would take a look at the harness in the area where it enters the engine compartment for possible breaks in the wiring or a wire shorting out. You may be able to duplicate the problem by starting the port engine and tilting/trimming it while idling and see if it cuts out again. It sounds like an electrical related problem from your description.
RayD posted 01-02-2009 11:19 AM ET (US)
Have checked the power and cleaned all connections and cables, and all seems fine, including voltage to starter. I am able to switch to starboard battery power (engine that is running) and this makes no difference. Motor cranks fine, just will not stay lit.
I was able to get the motor to "run" yesterday for 5-7 seconds by holding the warm up button on the throttle and advancing to about 1/2 way, while at the same time holding the key in "start" position - essentially forcing the stator to turn. The cylinders all seemed to fire ok, but died as soon as I released the key. This seems to me to indicate that the motor is functioning mechanically - maybe EMM is shutting fuel supply or power? or maybe ignition is giving a false "off" signal?
Again, I am stumped
Peter posted 01-02-2009 07:36 PM ET (US)
This is probably not it but check to make sure that the fuel pressure test port (looks like a Schrader valve located near the vapor separator) is still intact. The test port on one of my 2002 225s failed (excessive ethanol is the blame by the dealer). The reason I don't think its the problem is that if the port fails, the engine doesn't quit immediately. But its worth taking a look to rule that out.
kingbuster posted 01-02-2009 10:43 PM ET (US)
There is a small pink wire on the starter soleniod, and check the voltage there while starting. It needs to be a minimum of 9.5 volts. If your voltage is good there then [the source of the problem is] most likely a defective start assist circuit. The start assist circuit is inside the engine management module (EMM). You could swap the EMM off of your starboard engine for a test, just to see if it correcta the problem.
seahorse posted 01-02-2009 10:57 PM ET (US)
Peter is on the right track.
What you want to find out is if the fuel pressure electric pump is operating and if it's putting out enough pressure. You can use an automotive EFI pressure gauge on the "tire valve" fitting. The electric pump should run for about 5 seconds when the keyswitch is turned to ON.
RayD posted 01-03-2009 09:02 AM ET (US)
kingbuster: I have good power at the starter solenoid. Wouldn't the EMM [record] a service code for the start assist circuit failure?
Peter & Seahorse: the fuel pump runs when the key is engaged and seems to prime and build pressure as it should. It stops after 10 seconds or so, so I have been assuming that it is working properly. Do you know if the shutoff is a function of time or the correct pressure built up? I had assumed pressure, but could be wrong.
I will try the pressure test today.
Thanks for your collective input. This has been very helpful in thinking through the problem. I hope I can help someone in return at some point.
seahorse posted 01-03-2009 11:24 AM ET (US)
The pink wire on the starter solenoid is for a separate starting circuit (voltage doubler) inside the EMM. Make sure the correct voltage is present at the terminal while cranking the motor.
The electric pump shuts off automatically by a timer, not pressure.
If the motor starts quicker and stays running by advancing the throttle slightly before turning the key to START, then perhaps the stator windings are out of spec or there is a circuit problem inside the charging system controller of the EMM.
kingbuster posted 01-03-2009 01:41 PM ET (US)
RayD, it looks like your problem is with the 40 volt
circuit side,it's either with your stator or emm.most
likely it's the emm.these motors need a minimum of 19
to 20 volts(inside the emm) to work the injectors and other
things to start and keep it running.You could just swap
the emm off of your starb. engine for a "test only" to
see if corrects the problem or better yet,take it to a
certified BRP Technician and let them hook up the laptop
to your engine.the laptop will give a host of info. about
your engine and your problem.
fishinchips posted 01-03-2009 02:18 PM ET (US)
sure sounds like a bad emm or a connection to the emm.
Ken
RayD posted 01-03-2009 03:42 PM ET (US)
Thanks, guys. I am getting fairly close to concluding an EMM problem - fuel pressure test was fine, and all other tests are leading me back to the computer... I have a call in to the emm folks now -
Can I safely swap the emm from the other engine for a test run? It certainly would allow me to conclude quickly that the emm is the problem. My understanding was that the emm's were specifically programmed with injector serial #'s, etc. and even a service emm needed to be programmed to work in a given engine. Don't want to end up with two blown computers...
Martino posted 01-04-2009 08:26 AM ET (US)
Sure sounds like a bad ignition switch to me. If it runs in the start position, but cuts out when you release to the run position, sounds classic. I would start with the $30 switch.
RayD posted 01-10-2009 12:40 PM ET (US)
I have finally confirmed a bad EMM. I installed the starboard EMM as a temporary replacement at suggestion of DFI Tech in Alababma, and the motor started immediately and ran without issue. I will be sending the faulty EMM to DFI for repair immediately. I hope this resolution can help someone else with a similar problem. Thanks to all that responded for all the suggestions.
Peter posted 01-10-2009 03:47 PM ET (US)
Under the assumption that the 2000 is the same as the 2002, make sure that the cooling line that runs through the vapor separator is not clogged otherwise you will overheat the EMM which is plumbed in series with the vapor seperator.
fishinchips posted 01-10-2009 10:52 PM ET (US)
Glad you found the problem.
That problem happened to my 1999 - ficht 200hp. So thats why I said "sounds like a bad emm".
How much is it going to cost you for a repair of your old bad emm?
Ken (170 montauk / 22 hydrasports wa)
RayD posted 01-11-2009 09:19 AM ET (US)
Peter - Thanks, I did check the cooling water through the EMM and the flow seems to be fine. Incidentally, I had this same emm reprogrammed in August after a faulty cooling reading kept shutting the engine at normal temps. I was fishing off the Dry Tortugas (70mi west of Key West) and lost the port engine in 8ft seas crossing Rebecca Channel - not exactly a great place to be on one motor. We were able to get to Key West, then determined the erroneous temp fault with the help of a very knowledgeable local mechanic - we re-routed the cooling water flow to avoid recirculating water coming out of the block into the emm - by doing this, we were feeding only fresh water to the emm - this stream was 10-20 degrees cooler than the water coming out of the block. Not a permanent fix, but it got me home to Naples (90 mile run from KW)and we had the emm reprogrammed.
I only relate this story in hopes it may add to the collective knowledge regarding similar faults.
Ken - thanks for your reply, I had the EMM rebuilt by DFI Tech in Alabama in August, and they offer a one year or 100 hour warranty on their work according to the website. I am expecting that this repair will fall under the warranty and it doesn't cost me anything. I probably have 25 hours or even less on the motor since that repair. Incidentally, DFI were great to deal with in August. They diagnosed the issue immediately, were familiar with it, and had my EMM returned within one week.
Peter posted 01-11-2009 11:07 AM ET (US)
Re-routing??
The engine block could be operating at "normal" temperatures but the EMM can overheat if the cooling passages in the downstream vapor separator are clogged, which in my experience is not that hard to do. While you have the EMM off, blow through the hose that connects the EMM to the vapor separator and see whether that has an obstruction. Shouldn't have more resistance than blowing up a balloon.

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Author	Topic: 2000 Evinrude 225 FICHT Starting Problem
RayD	posted 01-01-2009 03:54 PM ET (US) Have an 2000 Evinrude Ficht 225 with a starting problem. Motor has been very reliable. By way of background, I did just have the engine management module (EMM) in this motor reconditioned and new software loaded over the summer. Hoping someone might be able to lend some insight, as I am stumped. Boat equipped with twins, starboard motor runs fine, port is the issue. Ignition switch turned to run, fuel pump runs as it should, and when ignition turned to start, motor cranks with no problems. The motor seems to catch, but will not continue to run. It acts as if the key is being turned off, rather than hesitating and dying, etc. My initial reaction was fuel starvation or lack of spark. Motor was running fine last week - moving along at 4000 rpm on both engines and port simply died. - I just replaced plugs on both motors, gapped at .28, indexed properly - Replaced fuel filters - no shavings or contaminants (including water) in fuel - Confirmed fuel is flowing from main tank through filter into primary fuel pump - Ran diagnostic software, no codes. - Spark test on all cylinders seems to be ok - injector test on all cylinders seems to be ok (I at least was able to verify EMM is communicating with each injector as "clicking" of injector mechanism seems to be in order.) - Ran fuel pump test through software and seems to be working - Ran oil pump test through software and seems to be working - I have check all fuses in the power distribution panel The only wrinkle in all of this is that I was trimming the port engine at the helm when the motor died. I pulled the throttle apart and did find a worn wire, which i have since fixed. I thought that this could have possibly shorted the ignition switch, but once repaired it does not seem to have made any difference. I am stumped. Could it be the fuel lift pump? Any thoughts and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, RayD
Peter	posted 01-01-2009 04:59 PM ET (US) How about something as simple as a bad kill switch for the port motor?
RayD	posted 01-01-2009 05:05 PM ET (US) Tested the kill - it governs both motors and does not allow cranking at all. I am able to start the starboard motor fine, and port cranks, but will not stay lit.
Peter	posted 01-01-2009 05:47 PM ET (US) I would go through the trouble shooting checklist of my service manual but won't have access for a few days.
kingbuster	posted 01-01-2009 09:42 PM ET (US) Make sure your batteries are fully charged, also check battery voltage at the starter soleniod while cranking. The voltage shouldn't drop below 9.5 volts; if it does check and clean both battery connections, battery cables, and starter.
dbrown	posted 01-01-2009 11:54 PM ET (US) Since you were trimming the port engine when the motor died, then I would take a look at the harness in the area where it enters the engine compartment for possible breaks in the wiring or a wire shorting out. You may be able to duplicate the problem by starting the port engine and tilting/trimming it while idling and see if it cuts out again. It sounds like an electrical related problem from your description.
RayD	posted 01-02-2009 11:19 AM ET (US) Have checked the power and cleaned all connections and cables, and all seems fine, including voltage to starter. I am able to switch to starboard battery power (engine that is running) and this makes no difference. Motor cranks fine, just will not stay lit. I was able to get the motor to "run" yesterday for 5-7 seconds by holding the warm up button on the throttle and advancing to about 1/2 way, while at the same time holding the key in "start" position - essentially forcing the stator to turn. The cylinders all seemed to fire ok, but died as soon as I released the key. This seems to me to indicate that the motor is functioning mechanically - maybe EMM is shutting fuel supply or power? or maybe ignition is giving a false "off" signal? Again, I am stumped
Peter	posted 01-02-2009 07:36 PM ET (US) This is probably not it but check to make sure that the fuel pressure test port (looks like a Schrader valve located near the vapor separator) is still intact. The test port on one of my 2002 225s failed (excessive ethanol is the blame by the dealer). The reason I don't think its the problem is that if the port fails, the engine doesn't quit immediately. But its worth taking a look to rule that out.
kingbuster	posted 01-02-2009 10:43 PM ET (US) There is a small pink wire on the starter soleniod, and check the voltage there while starting. It needs to be a minimum of 9.5 volts. If your voltage is good there then [the source of the problem is] most likely a defective start assist circuit. The start assist circuit is inside the engine management module (EMM). You could swap the EMM off of your starboard engine for a test, just to see if it correcta the problem.
seahorse	posted 01-02-2009 10:57 PM ET (US) Peter is on the right track. What you want to find out is if the fuel pressure electric pump is operating and if it's putting out enough pressure. You can use an automotive EFI pressure gauge on the "tire valve" fitting. The electric pump should run for about 5 seconds when the keyswitch is turned to ON.
RayD	posted 01-03-2009 09:02 AM ET (US) kingbuster: I have good power at the starter solenoid. Wouldn't the EMM [record] a service code for the start assist circuit failure? Peter & Seahorse: the fuel pump runs when the key is engaged and seems to prime and build pressure as it should. It stops after 10 seconds or so, so I have been assuming that it is working properly. Do you know if the shutoff is a function of time or the correct pressure built up? I had assumed pressure, but could be wrong. I will try the pressure test today. Thanks for your collective input. This has been very helpful in thinking through the problem. I hope I can help someone in return at some point.
seahorse	posted 01-03-2009 11:24 AM ET (US) The pink wire on the starter solenoid is for a separate starting circuit (voltage doubler) inside the EMM. Make sure the correct voltage is present at the terminal while cranking the motor. The electric pump shuts off automatically by a timer, not pressure. If the motor starts quicker and stays running by advancing the throttle slightly before turning the key to START, then perhaps the stator windings are out of spec or there is a circuit problem inside the charging system controller of the EMM.
kingbuster	posted 01-03-2009 01:41 PM ET (US) RayD, it looks like your problem is with the 40 volt circuit side,it's either with your stator or emm.most likely it's the emm.these motors need a minimum of 19 to 20 volts(inside the emm) to work the injectors and other things to start and keep it running.You could just swap the emm off of your starb. engine for a "test only" to see if corrects the problem or better yet,take it to a certified BRP Technician and let them hook up the laptop to your engine.the laptop will give a host of info. about your engine and your problem.
fishinchips	posted 01-03-2009 02:18 PM ET (US) sure sounds like a bad emm or a connection to the emm. Ken
RayD	posted 01-03-2009 03:42 PM ET (US) Thanks, guys. I am getting fairly close to concluding an EMM problem - fuel pressure test was fine, and all other tests are leading me back to the computer... I have a call in to the emm folks now - Can I safely swap the emm from the other engine for a test run? It certainly would allow me to conclude quickly that the emm is the problem. My understanding was that the emm's were specifically programmed with injector serial #'s, etc. and even a service emm needed to be programmed to work in a given engine. Don't want to end up with two blown computers...
Martino	posted 01-04-2009 08:26 AM ET (US) Sure sounds like a bad ignition switch to me. If it runs in the start position, but cuts out when you release to the run position, sounds classic. I would start with the $30 switch.
RayD	posted 01-10-2009 12:40 PM ET (US) I have finally confirmed a bad EMM. I installed the starboard EMM as a temporary replacement at suggestion of DFI Tech in Alababma, and the motor started immediately and ran without issue. I will be sending the faulty EMM to DFI for repair immediately. I hope this resolution can help someone else with a similar problem. Thanks to all that responded for all the suggestions.
Peter	posted 01-10-2009 03:47 PM ET (US) Under the assumption that the 2000 is the same as the 2002, make sure that the cooling line that runs through the vapor separator is not clogged otherwise you will overheat the EMM which is plumbed in series with the vapor seperator.
fishinchips	posted 01-10-2009 10:52 PM ET (US) Glad you found the problem. That problem happened to my 1999 - ficht 200hp. So thats why I said "sounds like a bad emm". How much is it going to cost you for a repair of your old bad emm? Ken (170 montauk / 22 hydrasports wa)
RayD	posted 01-11-2009 09:19 AM ET (US) Peter - Thanks, I did check the cooling water through the EMM and the flow seems to be fine. Incidentally, I had this same emm reprogrammed in August after a faulty cooling reading kept shutting the engine at normal temps. I was fishing off the Dry Tortugas (70mi west of Key West) and lost the port engine in 8ft seas crossing Rebecca Channel - not exactly a great place to be on one motor. We were able to get to Key West, then determined the erroneous temp fault with the help of a very knowledgeable local mechanic - we re-routed the cooling water flow to avoid recirculating water coming out of the block into the emm - by doing this, we were feeding only fresh water to the emm - this stream was 10-20 degrees cooler than the water coming out of the block. Not a permanent fix, but it got me home to Naples (90 mile run from KW)and we had the emm reprogrammed. I only relate this story in hopes it may add to the collective knowledge regarding similar faults. Ken - thanks for your reply, I had the EMM rebuilt by DFI Tech in Alabama in August, and they offer a one year or 100 hour warranty on their work according to the website. I am expecting that this repair will fall under the warranty and it doesn't cost me anything. I probably have 25 hours or even less on the motor since that repair. Incidentally, DFI were great to deal with in August. They diagnosed the issue immediately, were familiar with it, and had my EMM returned within one week.
Peter	posted 01-11-2009 11:07 AM ET (US) Re-routing?? The engine block could be operating at "normal" temperatures but the EMM can overheat if the cooling passages in the downstream vapor separator are clogged, which in my experience is not that hard to do. While you have the EMM off, blow through the hose that connects the EMM to the vapor separator and see whether that has an obstruction. Shouldn't have more resistance than blowing up a balloon.