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Bow Rail Self Tapping Screw Fasteners
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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Whaler Repairs/Mods
Bow Rail Self Tapping Screw Fasteners
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| Author | Topic: Bow Rail Self Tapping Screw Fasteners |
| gchop750 |
posted 01-29-2009 08:49 PM ET (US)  
Anyone have a source for the original type Phillips-head self-tapping screws that hold the bow rail together? Thanks, George |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 01-29-2009 08:52 PM ET (US)
CMI Marine http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/OEM.html#railings |
| Jeff |
posted 01-29-2009 09:00 PM ET (US)
George, I got rid of all of my railing screws and went to Stainless Steel rivets. Below is an article I wrote for another site on how to go about doing this repair. So for those of us who are not fortunate enough to have a single piece welded bow rail this fix is a must do in my book. I am sure you know how much of a pain in the but it is replacing lost screws, tightening lose ones, and then having your railing rattle and rack itself back apart next time you head out. Well I have found a remedy for this problem. My father had his railings on his Montauk riveted together by a local canvas place it this worked very well. In fact it never came apart, rattled, or loosened for the 4+ years after we had them done. So, with the railing on my Outrage coming apart every time I took the boat out I figured it was time to fix the railing once and for all. We were able to borrow a 3/16 pneumatic riveter from my father's work to use for this job which worked out well. You can use a manual riveter if you have one however, you need a long handled gun as the Stainless rivets are very difficult to pull by hand. The rivets used were: Klik-Fast 3/16" Dia. Buttonhead Rivet with a 1/4" - 3/8" Grip length for a .192" - .196" / #11 drill hole. Product Number (1)4Y089 and they were bought through grainger. Gun and Rivets Step 1 Step 2 Step 3 Step 4 |
| gchop750 |
posted 01-29-2009 09:38 PM ET (US)
thank you for the replies, rivrting sounds like the right way to go. |
| Jeff |
posted 01-29-2009 10:19 PM ET (US)
George, I must say it is the only way I will have my railings. But you need the right tools which can usually be found at a good local rent shop. I hope to do my Newport this spring. |
| Jeff |
posted 01-29-2009 10:21 PM ET (US)
Sorry here is an image of what the rivet look like. The image is from my Father's Montauk. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/dads%20whaler/ ?action=view¤t=DSC00314.jpg |
| Jeff |
posted 01-30-2009 09:51 AM ET (US)
I found the link to grainger for the correct rivets. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4Y089 |
| acseatsri |
posted 01-30-2009 06:28 PM ET (US)
Has anyone ever tried Loctite on the rails? Just curious, as I was thinking of trying mine. |
| jimh |
posted 01-31-2009 04:14 PM ET (US)
I believe the screw fasteners that were used in the bow railing assemblies were not self-tapping screws but rather thread-cutting screws. They're like normal machine screws except they have their own little thread cutter built into the first few threads of the screw. Here is some information on them: Also, I have seen a thin nylon washer used with these thread-cutting screws. It prevents the screw head from cutting into the stainless steel. It also seems to act like a lock washer, as it seems to deform slightly. I imagine you could source these fasteners from any good supply house that dealt with threaded fasteners. |
| AtoZ |
posted 01-31-2009 10:15 PM ET (US)
I've got a box of the ss rivits. email me. |
| dfmcintyre |
posted 02-01-2009 06:16 AM ET (US)
As someone who's had to do the same type of repair, I'd think about going with Jeff's suggestion. One problem I've encountered when just replacing with the OEM screws is that the hole over time is also enlarged and the same sized screws no longer hold as long or as well. Good job Jeff. Don |
| jimh |
posted 02-01-2009 08:55 AM ET (US)
The secret to Jeff's re-fit with the stainless steel rivets is that power tool used to form the rivets. That is a dandy way to install them. |
| New 2 Whalers |
posted 02-01-2009 09:52 AM ET (US)
That is a slick way to end the rattling problem. I replaced most of the joints and bases on my rails and the new ones have stainless allen head setscrews similar in profile to what jimh showed. I used some loctite and seem to have solved the rattles for now. If it fails I will rivet for sure. Thanks for sharing another great gem of knowledge:-) |
| Jeff |
posted 02-01-2009 10:23 AM ET (US)
Jim, Yes the Pneumatic rivet gun does help a lot. Doing the stainless rivets with a manual gun is a bear but can be done with you have a gun with long enough handles. Like I said though you can find these tools at any good tool rental shop. Or, if you do not want to do the job yourself you can take your boat to a good local custom canvas shop and have them do it. That is how we had our Montauk Railings done. |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 02-01-2009 01:37 PM ET (US)
quote: "Self-tapping" and "thread-cutting" are synonymous. "Self tapping" means the screw cuts its own threads. I think the distinction Jim was trying to make was that the Whaler screws cut their own machine thread as opposed to the course thread a sheet metal screw will cut. Unfortunately, the term "self tapping screw" is too often to describe what is correctly known as a sheet metal screw, but there are several types of threads and applications used with various "self-tapping" fasteners. I have a bag of the screws that Whaler used. They are as Jim describes them. I bought them form Fred Caldwell at CMI. I have never found another source for precisely the same fastener with its odd nylon collar "lock washer." |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 02-01-2009 01:51 PM ET (US)
Don mentions stripped put, elongated screw holes and it reminds me of the most infamous loose rail fitting on any Whaler: the shepherd's crook-to-console rial T fitting. I have owner four center console Whalers with this rail and that joint was always loose. The problem is that the shepherd's crook Tee joint gets an unusual lateral load as the crook is grabbed maneuvering around the boat. It takes only a few years before the screws have been retightened so many times, the threads are stripped. You can try oversize fasteners but they eventually strip out too. I think Jeff's rivet technique is great. It may be the ultimate solution. My only reservations are the that you have to drill out the hole oversized so there is no going back. This should not matter unless you anticipate ever removing or breaking down the rail. I suppose the stainless steel rivets can be drilled out in the future if the rail must be removed. But the rails do get removed form time to time for fiberglass repair, polishing or when a rail or rail component gets sold and shipped. Jeff -- Do you use the rivets at the rail bases in the Montauk or Outrage models as well? |
| pglein |
posted 01-28-2010 01:40 PM ET (US)
First off, thanks to Tom Clark for pointing me to this thread. But I do have one question. Jeff, did you use the same method for attaching the 45 degree bases to the (relativley) vertical tubing? Mine appear to be of somewhat different construction. They do not have the recessed area around the hole, where the screw head (or in this case, the rivet) rests. Instead, they appear to be threaded for set screws. Were yours like this? Here's a picture of all my fittings. Hopefully you can see what I'm talking about: |
| Jeff |
posted 01-28-2010 02:45 PM ET (US)
pglein (and Tom), Yes, I used the rivets in the bases as well. I drilled the holes out to receive the rivets, then once there were shot into the hole, I used a small ball peen hammer to round the flared head of the rivet down and around the base. |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 01-28-2010 03:10 PM ET (US)
Peter, Since you are going to be re-chroming the bases anyway, you could drill a shallow recess into the bronze that would receive the head of the rivet (like the stainless steel Tees already have) and allow it to be flush with the surface. |
| pglein |
posted 01-29-2010 01:40 PM ET (US)
Tom, I like your thinking. This is what I will do. Guess I need to build a jig for the drill press. I hardly want to attempt free-handing that. |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 01-29-2010 02:15 PM ET (US)
Yes, a drill press, a jig and low speed. You can closely examine the counter sinks on the Tees to see what shape the bottom of those recesses is, but ideally you suppose you would want a flat bottomed recesses like a Forstner bit will but in wood. I doubt it would matter if a regular bevelled tip twist drill bit were used, but if you were going to go over to Tacoma Screw Products to pick up the stainless steel rivets anyway, you might inquire if they have any special drill bits that would be better suite to this particular task. While you're at Tacoma Screw, pick up the drill bits you will need for drilling out the fittings. I'm not sure all nominally 3/16" rivets are exactly that diameter or the same as other brands. Jeff mentions buying a special numbered drill bit. You want the hole as tight to the diameter of the rivet as possible, but still allow the rivet to be inserted without too much difficulty. If they have the drill bit you need, buy two of them in case you break one. It's no fun wasting part of an afternoon driving back to the store for a $2 bit. |
| Wasatch Whaler |
posted 01-30-2010 09:54 PM ET (US)
I believe what Tom is describing is called an "end mill". You can face mill a recessed spot for the rivet head to rest in. It's been years since I've run a milling machine (It's on my list of "wants") but IIRC you'll need to be able to secure the part quite securely in a vice so the cutter doesn't wander. |
| Stevebaz |
posted 02-03-2010 11:11 AM ET (US)
If you look at the Mcmaster Carr online catalog you need what is called a spotface or a counter bore. part number 3015A17 $42.00 with pilot 3013A13 $10.50 or part number 3102A15 $ 31.45 with pilot 3103A23 $10.50 Page 2458 on their online catalog 3/8 counterbore with a 3/16 pilot to fit the rivits that jeff describes. I am sure Mc Master Carr has the rivits too. www.mcmaster.com Much safer than an end mill and you can use a hand drill to power if you can secure your work. Have fun Steve |
| Tom W Clark |
posted 02-03-2010 11:29 AM ET (US)
Steve -- That is excellent information. Thank you. Type the page number 2458 into the search field and the catalog page will pop up. Actually, part # 2909A19 would suffice for this project. It has pilot and bore all-in-one for only $10.65 |
| macfam |
posted 02-21-2010 10:16 PM ET (US)
Today I did the rail on my 13'Super Sport with the SS rivets. When using a pnematic rivit gun and the #11 drill bit, it went fast and easy. Total time for the 20 rivets was about 15 minutes. What a difference in the solid feel now that its completed. Thanks for your advice and instructions. Top notch. |
| Chuck Tribolet |
posted 02-21-2010 11:44 PM ET (US)
Has Grainger gone back to taking Master Card? They used to ten years ago, then they stopped and you had to have a Dunn and Bradstreet to order from them.
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| macfam |
posted 02-22-2010 07:18 AM ET (US)
Chuck, Yes Grainger has, but the forms are a bit much. Its easier to get a passport!! I decided it was foolish to order 250 SS rivets when I needed 20. So I ordered from www.bosunsupplies.com |
| sail16 |
posted 07-06-2010 07:47 PM ET (US)
I am considering the stainless rivet route. Most of the pneumatic guns I have found are rated at 4 or more CFM. Unfortunately, my compressor tops out at 3 CFM. Does anyone have a sense for whether the 4CFM rating applies only if you are doing multiple rivets back to back or whether I can sneak by with my current compressor? |
| Jeff |
posted 07-06-2010 08:15 PM ET (US)
If you do not shoot them one right after the other, right after the other and the 3cfm will work fine. That is what my compressor is rated at. |
| contender |
posted 07-06-2010 09:17 PM ET (US)
I do not have a bow rail, nor do I care to have one and the area I live in really does not support one. However, seems to me the best-way to go is to have it welded (never come apart and will not raddle) or make one out of alum. and have it all welded the same... |
| alfred |
posted 07-07-2010 11:46 AM ET (US)
I had to do this mod on my old 18 Outrage, but I used a long handle manual pop rivet gun. http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://megacheaphardware.com.au/images/Long%2520Arm%2520Riveter.jpg&imgrefurl=http://megacheaphardware.com.au/index.php%3Fmain_page%3Dproduct_info%26cPath%3D12%26products_id%3D332&h=523&w=1204&sz=78&tbnid=CmpBK-oSVKf09M:&tbnh=65&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpop%2Brivet%2Bgun&hl=en&usg=__VY3yqxRJHBWgdJ-Q79x_7ZTG5Ug=&sa=X&ei=eKA0TPXcN4qTkAX5vOmgDA&ved=0CCUQ9QEwBw It was hard work with the stainless steel rivets, but I never had a problem with the rail again after that. |
| njwlog |
posted 07-07-2010 02:09 PM ET (US)
What is the reason why you have to drill out the hole? Why can't you just use a 5/32" rivet in the existing #10 hole. |
| bboeri |
posted 08-02-2010 02:46 PM ET (US)
Jeff, Can you buy the rivets anywhere else in smaller quantities? I only need 21 for my Montauk. Also, after you apply the rivet, is part of the center pin left in the rivet or do you have to drill that out/ Thanks for the help. tired of all the rattling. Bob |
| Jeff |
posted 08-02-2010 03:01 PM ET (US)
Bob, I do not know of any place that sell smaller quantities. For about $50 I figured I would have enough to do ever boat I own from here on out so it was not a big deal for me. I would suggest you contact one of the others here who bough a box and see if you could score a smaller amount from them. If you do not have any luck email me and I will see what I can get you. Yes, there is a bit of the center pin left in the shank of the collar. Leave that in there and do not drill it out. It helps to support the now flared shank and collar. |
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