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Author Topic:   Yamaha 300 HPDI Fuel Starvation

outlaw300hpdi posted 06-02-2009 10:42 AM ET (US)
[I] have a problem with my [1988 Boston Whaler OUTRAGE 20 Whaler Drive and 2005 Yamaha 300-HP HPDI]. [I] put a new 300 on in [2005] and she has been running great. Ten days ago [I] notice a bog on plane, quick and easy and then gone. Five days ago [the problem with the bog] was back at about 3,500-RPM, around the same speed as last time, this time not as quick and not as easy. [I] decided to change the fuel filter and RACOR water separator bowl. [M]y buddy drained the bowl. [W]e took it off. [I] put some lube on the new O-rings, re-attached bowl to new filter, and hand-tightened filter back on the boat. [C]ranked her up and she sounded great for about five minutes, then she shut down sounding like she was out of gas. [I] hit the bulb and it was empty. [W]when [I] pumped [the primer bulb], [I] got nothing, and heard some air escaping,. [T]hat's when [I] noticed we didn't shut the valve on the fuel filter, which is a fairly accurate summation of my mechanic skills. [I] pumped like mad and thought that it was getting tighter but when [I] switched hands, [I] realized that [I] was getting tighter. [S]o after [I] couldn't even squeeze out toothpaste [I] cut the fuel line engine side of the bulb, pumped-fingered-released until fuel hit the bulb, then reattached the hose to the bulb and she fired right up, she runs great unless [I] get going 3,500. [T]hen the bulb goes flat and so does my [tachometer]. [S]orry about the book. [I] just need help and wanted all the details included. [I] first thought it was my [unknown acronym], but now think it's a problem tank-side of the bulb. [C]ould [the problem] be anti-siphon-valve? [I]f so [I] don't have the first clue on how to check. [A]ny sugestions would be greatly appreciated.
[T]hanks,
outlaw.
Buckda posted 06-02-2009 10:51 AM ET (US)
The first thing I would do is replace the bulb and inspect all fuel hose connections and fittings for leaks or cracked hoses, etc. If necessary, replace the fuel line from the tank to the fuel filter then to the engine - the whole 5 or 6 feet of line.
Buy a Mercury or Bombardier branded bulb - not a Sierra or Tempo brand. It will cost a couple extra dollars, but pay those dollars back in extra years of service.
Next, inspect the fuel delivery hoses on the powerhead. What condition are they in? Cracked and brittle or soft and pliant?
The next thing I'd do is take the boat to a "test lake" - a calm stretch of water with little boat traffic - and run the boat with the cowling off the powerhead. Sit back there and let a buddy drive. Can you see anything happening (fuel leaking from the fuel rails, etc?
The HPDI, if I recall, pressurizes the fuel delivery - you may be losing pressure in your fuel rails.
That is the extent of the assistance I can provide - if it were my motor and I noticed any anomaly, I'd do what I can do (replacing lines and hoses) and leave the rest to my mechanic.
Good luck.
Dave
jimh posted 06-02-2009 10:06 PM ET (US)
To help understand how a primer bulb can be a diagnostic indicator, read:
A Primer on Primers
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/primer.html
Read the section under the subheading "Collapsed Primer Bulb."
Nota Bene: The personal pronoun is spelled "I", not "i".
L H G posted 06-03-2009 01:05 AM ET (US)
....Or a bad check valve in the primer bulb.
Sebash4 posted 06-03-2009 06:58 AM ET (US)
...Or the check valve in thr tank.
jimh posted 06-03-2009 08:47 AM ET (US)
When you replace a large volume filter like a RACOR, re-priming the fuel system can be made faster if you fill the filter with some fuel before installing it. If you put an empty filter into the system you will have to fill the filter and remove all of the air that was in it, which may take a while.
Whenever the fuel system hoses are opened, you will have to bleed the air out of the fuel lines. Generally air in the fuel lines can be pushed through the fuel feed hoses to the engine by pumping the primer bulb. In fuel injection engines there generally is a secondary fuel pump and a high pressure fuel rail system. Typically there will be a fuel vapor separator which will allow air in the fuel system to escape. It may take running the engine for a few minutes to get all of the air out of the fuel system, and during that time you might get some fuel starvation symptoms, such as the engine speed reducing briefly.
outlaw300hpdi posted 06-03-2009 09:57 AM ET (US)
Sorry jimh, I forgot you were a stikler, I can certainly respect that though, and I will do my best to not let it happen again, although i might slip every now and then. The unknown akronym (VST) stands for vapor separator tank. Thanks for all the help, I am heading down there now to change the bulb and hoping for the best, I am going to do everything I can before taking her in, I don't have a trailer so the shops rob me blind for pick-up's. Have a good day out there, and I will get let you know how this turns out. Oh, and if i see the refs call another game like last night I am going to go skyward!- sorry jimh, had to say it-Go Wings!
Phil T posted 06-03-2009 03:10 PM ET (US)
While not an expert on HPDI, I would inspect and clean the vapor separator tank (VST). Replace the filter while you are at it. I would replace the fuel filters, low and high pressure side.
If this does not correct the symptom, the problem is further down the line.
outlaw300hpdi posted 06-07-2009 05:28 PM ET (US)
Thanks for all the help, changed the primer bulb and had same problem, bulb was sucked flat so I knew it wasn't a bad bulb, and the problem was somewhere between the bulb and the tank. Unhooked vent hose and ran with same result, eliminated that and knew it had to be check valve on the tank with the help from these postings, took a look under the deckplate and remembered I was rigged for twins, so i switched the fuel hose to the one that hasn't been used, and voila! she's back to pushing 60. Thanks again for saving me who knows how much money,
see ya on the water,
Outlaw.
MattInSanDiego posted 06-07-2009 10:26 PM ET (US)
My 200HP HPDI has three fuel filters. Two are under the engine cover. I bet one of these is clogged. I would take your engine to a good Yamaha dealer.
MattInSanDiego posted 06-07-2009 10:28 PM ET (US)
Wish I could take that last post back...glad she is running well for you.
jimh posted 06-07-2009 10:39 PM ET (US)
Thank you for the follow up post.
The problem of fuel starvation was remedied by changing the fuel hose to a second fuel pick up on the fuel tank. This implies the problem could have been a clogged fuel tank pick up or perhaps a poor check valve in that fuel tank fitting.

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Author	Topic: Yamaha 300 HPDI Fuel Starvation
outlaw300hpdi	posted 06-02-2009 10:42 AM ET (US) [I] have a problem with my [1988 Boston Whaler OUTRAGE 20 Whaler Drive and 2005 Yamaha 300-HP HPDI]. [I] put a new 300 on in [2005] and she has been running great. Ten days ago [I] notice a bog on plane, quick and easy and then gone. Five days ago [the problem with the bog] was back at about 3,500-RPM, around the same speed as last time, this time not as quick and not as easy. [I] decided to change the fuel filter and RACOR water separator bowl. [M]y buddy drained the bowl. [W]e took it off. [I] put some lube on the new O-rings, re-attached bowl to new filter, and hand-tightened filter back on the boat. [C]ranked her up and she sounded great for about five minutes, then she shut down sounding like she was out of gas. [I] hit the bulb and it was empty. [W]when [I] pumped [the primer bulb], [I] got nothing, and heard some air escaping,. [T]hat's when [I] noticed we didn't shut the valve on the fuel filter, which is a fairly accurate summation of my mechanic skills. [I] pumped like mad and thought that it was getting tighter but when [I] switched hands, [I] realized that [I] was getting tighter. [S]o after [I] couldn't even squeeze out toothpaste [I] cut the fuel line engine side of the bulb, pumped-fingered-released until fuel hit the bulb, then reattached the hose to the bulb and she fired right up, she runs great unless [I] get going 3,500. [T]hen the bulb goes flat and so does my [tachometer]. [S]orry about the book. [I] just need help and wanted all the details included. [I] first thought it was my [unknown acronym], but now think it's a problem tank-side of the bulb. [C]ould [the problem] be anti-siphon-valve? [I]f so [I] don't have the first clue on how to check. [A]ny sugestions would be greatly appreciated. [T]hanks, outlaw.
Buckda	posted 06-02-2009 10:51 AM ET (US) The first thing I would do is replace the bulb and inspect all fuel hose connections and fittings for leaks or cracked hoses, etc. If necessary, replace the fuel line from the tank to the fuel filter then to the engine - the whole 5 or 6 feet of line. Buy a Mercury or Bombardier branded bulb - not a Sierra or Tempo brand. It will cost a couple extra dollars, but pay those dollars back in extra years of service. Next, inspect the fuel delivery hoses on the powerhead. What condition are they in? Cracked and brittle or soft and pliant? The next thing I'd do is take the boat to a "test lake" - a calm stretch of water with little boat traffic - and run the boat with the cowling off the powerhead. Sit back there and let a buddy drive. Can you see anything happening (fuel leaking from the fuel rails, etc? The HPDI, if I recall, pressurizes the fuel delivery - you may be losing pressure in your fuel rails. That is the extent of the assistance I can provide - if it were my motor and I noticed any anomaly, I'd do what I can do (replacing lines and hoses) and leave the rest to my mechanic. Good luck. Dave
jimh	posted 06-02-2009 10:06 PM ET (US) To help understand how a primer bulb can be a diagnostic indicator, read: A Primer on Primers http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/primer.html Read the section under the subheading "Collapsed Primer Bulb." Nota Bene: The personal pronoun is spelled "I", not "i".
L H G	posted 06-03-2009 01:05 AM ET (US) ....Or a bad check valve in the primer bulb.
Sebash4	posted 06-03-2009 06:58 AM ET (US) ...Or the check valve in thr tank.
jimh	posted 06-03-2009 08:47 AM ET (US) When you replace a large volume filter like a RACOR, re-priming the fuel system can be made faster if you fill the filter with some fuel before installing it. If you put an empty filter into the system you will have to fill the filter and remove all of the air that was in it, which may take a while. Whenever the fuel system hoses are opened, you will have to bleed the air out of the fuel lines. Generally air in the fuel lines can be pushed through the fuel feed hoses to the engine by pumping the primer bulb. In fuel injection engines there generally is a secondary fuel pump and a high pressure fuel rail system. Typically there will be a fuel vapor separator which will allow air in the fuel system to escape. It may take running the engine for a few minutes to get all of the air out of the fuel system, and during that time you might get some fuel starvation symptoms, such as the engine speed reducing briefly.
outlaw300hpdi	posted 06-03-2009 09:57 AM ET (US) Sorry jimh, I forgot you were a stikler, I can certainly respect that though, and I will do my best to not let it happen again, although i might slip every now and then. The unknown akronym (VST) stands for vapor separator tank. Thanks for all the help, I am heading down there now to change the bulb and hoping for the best, I am going to do everything I can before taking her in, I don't have a trailer so the shops rob me blind for pick-up's. Have a good day out there, and I will get let you know how this turns out. Oh, and if i see the refs call another game like last night I am going to go skyward!- sorry jimh, had to say it-Go Wings!
Phil T	posted 06-03-2009 03:10 PM ET (US) While not an expert on HPDI, I would inspect and clean the vapor separator tank (VST). Replace the filter while you are at it. I would replace the fuel filters, low and high pressure side. If this does not correct the symptom, the problem is further down the line.
outlaw300hpdi	posted 06-07-2009 05:28 PM ET (US) Thanks for all the help, changed the primer bulb and had same problem, bulb was sucked flat so I knew it wasn't a bad bulb, and the problem was somewhere between the bulb and the tank. Unhooked vent hose and ran with same result, eliminated that and knew it had to be check valve on the tank with the help from these postings, took a look under the deckplate and remembered I was rigged for twins, so i switched the fuel hose to the one that hasn't been used, and voila! she's back to pushing 60. Thanks again for saving me who knows how much money, see ya on the water, Outlaw.
MattInSanDiego	posted 06-07-2009 10:26 PM ET (US) My 200HP HPDI has three fuel filters. Two are under the engine cover. I bet one of these is clogged. I would take your engine to a good Yamaha dealer.
MattInSanDiego	posted 06-07-2009 10:28 PM ET (US) Wish I could take that last post back...glad she is running well for you.
jimh	posted 06-07-2009 10:39 PM ET (US) Thank you for the follow up post. The problem of fuel starvation was remedied by changing the fuel hose to a second fuel pick up on the fuel tank. This implies the problem could have been a clogged fuel tank pick up or perhaps a poor check valve in that fuel tank fitting.