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Author Topic:   Using the gas we buy to advantage

R T M posted 10-02-2009 03:38 PM ET (US)
How can we modify our outboards to take advantage of the fuel(gasoline+alcohol+water) that we buy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)
deepwater posted 10-02-2009 05:00 PM ET (US)
Water injection has long been used in military aircraft to increase thrust
Jefecinco posted 10-02-2009 06:50 PM ET (US)
All along I thought it was used to increase HP on gasoline reciprocating aircraft engines. Is/was it widely used to increase thrust on aircraft turbine engines?
Butch
deepwater posted 10-02-2009 07:31 PM ET (US)
I believe when i was in Texas (early to late 70s) the SAC guys told me the KC135 used a water injection to help get the plane heavy with fuel off the ground,,I was more in the C130 and 141s ,,But the KCs and Buffs would realy rattle the windows trying to lift off heavy from Dyess on a warm day
deepwater posted 10-02-2009 07:40 PM ET (US)
I just looked it up ,,It was called wet thrust
Jefecinco posted 10-03-2009 10:02 AM ET (US)
Deep,
Since the water would vaporize virtually immediately upon entering the turbine I would guess the thrust improvement would be factored more upon a momentary increase in combustion air density due to a temperature drop. Works for me.
Perhaps Evinrude will come up with a kit.
Butch
Don88outrage posted 10-03-2009 10:43 AM ET (US)
Simply put, water carries more oxygen than air and when metered into the combustion cycle the power increase can be significant. The original KC-135's, A models, 4 engines burned 670 gallons of water in 120 seconds on take off with a thrust increase of around 20%, when the water kicked in it was a real WOW, kinda like a fighter jet hitting after burner. The necessity back then was only because the engines didn't have the power to get a 190,000 lb. aircraft carrying up to 180,000 lbs. fuel off the ground. The BUFF's, B-52's, had the same J-57 engines with the same issue. Practical for an outboard, I don't think so.
Don (a former SAC guy)
deepwater posted 10-03-2009 12:42 PM ET (US)
In the same article it mentioned a second set of ignite-rs and the water was used to help cool down an already very hot burning jet engine getting extra fuel and it added thrust out the back,, i already know many of you feel your cars run better on wet damp or foggy days,,I wonder if one of those desk top fog bowls could be modified to work in a tank near the intakes to provide the moisture
R T M posted 10-03-2009 02:41 PM ET (US)
I remember reading years ago, that outboard and inboard speed records, were set at Salton Sea in Ca. On cool damp mornings just after daybreak. The clam salt water provided the extra buoyancy, and the cool damp mornings provided the moist air. I heard the Sea is no more.
rich/Binkie
rsantia posted 10-03-2009 10:50 PM ET (US)
Keep in mind air temp and density are significant factors in engine operation. As I recall, we never used water injection on the 135A when temps fell below 40 degrees F or in the winter. In the colder weather the engines were able to develop the necessary thrust. Modern turbine engines no longer use water injection as the forward fan produces most of the thrust developed by the engine.
Man you guys brought back some fond memories!
deepwater posted 10-04-2009 12:12 AM ET (US)
So you remember ,,we have to get in before 0600 and out before 0915 because the ramp temp will exceed our fuel load for the runway at that altitude,,anyone that screws it up and we have to stay the night in that rat hole sleeps outside

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Author	Topic: Using the gas we buy to advantage
R T M	posted 10-02-2009 03:38 PM ET (US) How can we modify our outboards to take advantage of the fuel(gasoline+alcohol+water) that we buy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)
deepwater	posted 10-02-2009 05:00 PM ET (US) Water injection has long been used in military aircraft to increase thrust
Jefecinco	posted 10-02-2009 06:50 PM ET (US) All along I thought it was used to increase HP on gasoline reciprocating aircraft engines. Is/was it widely used to increase thrust on aircraft turbine engines? Butch
deepwater	posted 10-02-2009 07:31 PM ET (US) I believe when i was in Texas (early to late 70s) the SAC guys told me the KC135 used a water injection to help get the plane heavy with fuel off the ground,,I was more in the C130 and 141s ,,But the KCs and Buffs would realy rattle the windows trying to lift off heavy from Dyess on a warm day
deepwater	posted 10-02-2009 07:40 PM ET (US) I just looked it up ,,It was called wet thrust
Jefecinco	posted 10-03-2009 10:02 AM ET (US) Deep, Since the water would vaporize virtually immediately upon entering the turbine I would guess the thrust improvement would be factored more upon a momentary increase in combustion air density due to a temperature drop. Works for me. Perhaps Evinrude will come up with a kit. Butch
Don88outrage	posted 10-03-2009 10:43 AM ET (US) Simply put, water carries more oxygen than air and when metered into the combustion cycle the power increase can be significant. The original KC-135's, A models, 4 engines burned 670 gallons of water in 120 seconds on take off with a thrust increase of around 20%, when the water kicked in it was a real WOW, kinda like a fighter jet hitting after burner. The necessity back then was only because the engines didn't have the power to get a 190,000 lb. aircraft carrying up to 180,000 lbs. fuel off the ground. The BUFF's, B-52's, had the same J-57 engines with the same issue. Practical for an outboard, I don't think so. Don (a former SAC guy)
deepwater	posted 10-03-2009 12:42 PM ET (US) In the same article it mentioned a second set of ignite-rs and the water was used to help cool down an already very hot burning jet engine getting extra fuel and it added thrust out the back,, i already know many of you feel your cars run better on wet damp or foggy days,,I wonder if one of those desk top fog bowls could be modified to work in a tank near the intakes to provide the moisture
R T M	posted 10-03-2009 02:41 PM ET (US) I remember reading years ago, that outboard and inboard speed records, were set at Salton Sea in Ca. On cool damp mornings just after daybreak. The clam salt water provided the extra buoyancy, and the cool damp mornings provided the moist air. I heard the Sea is no more. rich/Binkie
rsantia	posted 10-03-2009 10:50 PM ET (US) Keep in mind air temp and density are significant factors in engine operation. As I recall, we never used water injection on the 135A when temps fell below 40 degrees F or in the winter. In the colder weather the engines were able to develop the necessary thrust. Modern turbine engines no longer use water injection as the forward fan produces most of the thrust developed by the engine. Man you guys brought back some fond memories!
deepwater	posted 10-04-2009 12:12 AM ET (US) So you remember ,,we have to get in before 0600 and out before 0915 because the ramp temp will exceed our fuel load for the runway at that altitude,,anyone that screws it up and we have to stay the night in that rat hole sleeps outside