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Author Topic:   Primer Bulb Collapses

ocean31 posted 02-05-2010 12:28 PM ET (US)
I am the new owner of a [1969] KATAMA. One of the first things I did was install a Attwood fuel-water separator from Walmart. I had a problem when I first purchased the boat with water in the fuel tank.
After getting all the problems with the engine worked out, I got a chance to take her to the lake and run the engine. I found the fuel primer bulb collapses and the engine quits from lack of fuel. Wait a minute or two and the primer bulb will pull fuel from the tank.
Now what I have done is checked, and or replaced all the hoses, fuel fittings, and so on. No air leaks and no restrictions. I started at the fuel tank pickup and went all the way to the engine. I installed new primer bulb, end fittings and so on.
I have a Tempo 12-gallon plastic tank installed under the seat platform. I have the fuel-water separator installed on the port side of the platform attached to the bottom edge of the platform and thru-bolted into the wood that runs along the bottom of the platform. This leaves the actual canister about three inches above the top of the fuel tank. From there [fuel hose] goes about 20 inches, then the primer bulb, and then finishes up at the engine. I am running 5/8-inch ID hose throughout, and I have a 1973 Evinrude 115.
Should I have installed the filter canister below the tank top?
Should I have installed the filter canister after the primer bulb?
Is [the cause of the malfunction in the engine due to] the filter itself? I only have [run the engine only] about 30 minutes on this canister, mostly on land with a garden hose, fixing the engine. But I know Attwood has had some quality control [problems], so should I go get another canister? Maybe change to a Sierra canister?
[Changed to a completely different topic. Please start a new thread to change to a completely different topic--jimh]
gss036 posted 02-05-2010 01:29 PM ET (US)
I think the first thing I would do is eliminate/bypass the fuel filter to if that solves your problem. If not, then check the fuel pick up in the tank or try a different tank. Does the tank/fuel pick up has have an anti siphon valve? Is it working?
contender posted 02-05-2010 03:06 PM ET (US)
Bulbs and fuel hose lines are different sizes you need to make sure you have 3/8's hose and bulb, I have also found that it's better to go with a factory bulb (OMC), I have found some brands (after market) collapse while being used. Make sure your vent line/opening is clear and that the tank can get air. Also do as gss036 stated...good luck
ocean31 posted 02-05-2010 03:29 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the replies:
The vent is open, along with the vent in the cap open, I take the cap off, and just loosely put it on the tank. Just to make sure the tank is venting.
No antisyphon valve, just a basic above deck 12 gallon todd tank, sold at most fine marine stores (small grin)
The fuel hoses, fittings, and bulb is the largest I can find. All are sized to match. If not 5/8 then at least 3/8, I bought the largest size of everything availble at West Marine.
But it sounds like no one has a problem with the actual installation. Good, next step is try a diffrent brand of filter, then if that does not work a OMC fuel bulb. Save the fuel bulb for last since I just replaced this bulb, and the previous one seemed fine but was also collapsing.
Thanks again for the replies.
Best place to get a replacement stern light lens?
Thanks
Ocean
contender posted 02-05-2010 03:45 PM ET (US)
The fuel lines and bulbs should be 3/8 inside dia. Take back the other bulbs, they are not working why should you pay for them, Try Perko for the lens, and/or type in Lewis Marine (Ft. Lauderdale), I think you can look at their catalog on line....Good luck
Stevebaz posted 02-05-2010 06:20 PM ET (US)
On my whaler I run from my tanks down to the floor then up to the primer bulb up to the filter then up to the motor. Pumping the bulb pushes fuel through the filter to the motor not the other way around. My filter is mounted on the transom well very close to the motor. Fuel lines are 3/8" I.D. aprox 5/8" O.D. I suspect your filter resistance is higher than the strength of your aftermarket fuel bulb causing collapse.
I would disconnect the bulb and see if you can blow air through the hose back to the tank and check to see if the lines are clear and tank is venting properly.
Good luck
Steve
Fishmore posted 02-05-2010 11:16 PM ET (US)
Not to be a wise guy but are you sure you installed the in/out hoses the proper way on the filter manifold. i.e. one way in and one way out usually marked with arrows showing the direction of flow. I was also wondering if you primed the filter prior to installation on the manifold or if you just hooked up the filter dry? If done dry there could be an air pocket in the filter canister. Both items are kind of far fetched but you never know.
Fishmore posted 02-05-2010 11:22 PM ET (US)
Just reread Steve's suggestion and noted that if the filter is too fine then it could cause what Steve is suggesting. My boat uses a 21 Micron filter for a 1993 75hp Mercury engine.
ocean31 posted 02-06-2010 06:24 AM ET (US)
I really do appreciate the replies, all of them have been a big help.
The hoses are hooked up correctly. That was my first thought.
However, the first time I started messing with this, I just dumped the fuel out of the cannister (it was full) and put the cannister back up fairly empty. It is possible that I have a fuel air lock, but would that not stop all flow? The primer bulb will refill, it just takes a minuite.
I am mot sure on the two fine a filter. I just used the stock Attwood filter that came with the package, a Walmart special. I am not even sure that the filter haa a micron lable on it. I will check.
My biggest concern has been installation. So far the consensus seems that the actual installation of the filter housing installed on a Katama platform seat is okay. If all else fails I will move the filter to the transom like SteveBaz mentioned. I was just hoping not to drill holes in the hull.
Thanks again for the replies
JSB
ocean31 posted 02-08-2010 08:21 PM ET (US)
Got it, or at least I think I do.
Keep in mind I just bought this 69 Katama, and she needed the basic minor repairs that is always needed whenever a boat goes up for sale.
Took her out for spin today in the north end of the bay, starting at the engine, I disconnected, or bypassed each item in the fuel system till I got back to the tank. I even put the Attwood fuel separator on a U bolt and attached to the rear stanchion platform support. This way I could move the separator up to the tank top, or down to the deck level.
Short answer, it seems the tank had a Yamaha fuel fitting. I had pulled the tank fitting already and made sure it was clear, thought it looked a little strange, not quite like the fuel fitting on the outboard, but just figured that was a Tempo way of doing the fitting.
End result, just put the fuel hose straight into the tank, moved the fuel water separator up to the platform level and took off. No problems.
Everybody at the ramp was probably thinking I was a bit strange though; Make a high speed oval turn. Kill the engine; make another high speed run, and so on.........
Well off to West Marine tomorrow, pick up a proper brass tank top fuel fitting, then maybe a long run on Wed.
Thanks again for all the replies. Once I get all the bugs out of this Whaler, I can finally start on my 70 bare hull.
JSB
TommyWhaler posted 02-11-2010 01:07 PM ET (US)
Hi ocean. My water separator on my Katama (72), is attached under the seat platform, and that puts it higher than the old metal 6 gal tank. I have have fuel delivery problems, and they stemmed from pressure build up. A mechanic took his knife and pushed in the "ball" in the connector. Fuel shot out. He said that leaving the fuel line attached to the motor after running can cause this build up.
It is a 1977 Johnson 115.
Once you get your Katama running right and people admire it, mine is for sale and it is in excellent shape.
jimh posted 02-12-2010 08:43 AM ET (US)
A fuel filter can be installed at a higher level than the fuel level in the tank. This is done all the time on boats where the tank is below deck level.
The filter can be installed either upstream or downstream of the primer bulb. Most fuel filters will usually specify they be installed on the suction side of the fuel pump. If you consider the primer bulb as a fuel pump--which it is--the filter should be upstream of the primer bulb. However, there are thousands of installations where the filter is downstream of the primer bulb and there is no problem in operation.
If you install a canister-type spin-on fuel filter without partially filling it with fuel, there will be a large amount of air in your fuel system. Any air in the fuel system has to be removed for the fuel system to work properly. Typically air is pushed along the fuel system by the primer bulb action toward the engine. In the engine the air flows through the fuel system until it is vented out. In a carburetor motor the fuel system is vented to the atmosphere in the carburetors themselves. In a fuel injected engine the fuel system is vented by the fuel-vapor separating filter. It can be rather tedious to vent a large volume of air in the fuel system through the engine. I recommend that when installing a canister-type fuel filter that you pre-fill the canister with clean fuel before installing it. In this way the amount of air in the fuel system will be kept to a minimum, and you won't have a long period of air bleeding out.

quote:
"I found the fuel primer bulb collapses and the engine quits from lack of fuel."
To use the condition of the fuel primer bulb as a diagnostic indicator, read my article in the REFERENCE section:
A Primer on Primers
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/primer.html
clarky posted 02-12-2010 10:42 AM ET (US)
[I] had [the] same problem [with collapsing of the primer bulb and cut-off of fuel to the engine] last summer. [A]fter checkings all lines and fittings, I discovered my fuel pick-up was cloged up with crud. [Next the author says he] emptied [the] tank and discovered crud in [the] bottom of [the] 13-year-old Pate [fuel tank].
R T M posted 02-12-2010 09:43 PM ET (US)
The bulb should be located close to the engine and should lay in a close to vertical position and of course the arrow on the bulb should be pointing up(if the bulb is near vertical) towards the engine.
rich/Binkie

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Author	Topic: Primer Bulb Collapses
ocean31	posted 02-05-2010 12:28 PM ET (US) I am the new owner of a [1969] KATAMA. One of the first things I did was install a Attwood fuel-water separator from Walmart. I had a problem when I first purchased the boat with water in the fuel tank. After getting all the problems with the engine worked out, I got a chance to take her to the lake and run the engine. I found the fuel primer bulb collapses and the engine quits from lack of fuel. Wait a minute or two and the primer bulb will pull fuel from the tank. Now what I have done is checked, and or replaced all the hoses, fuel fittings, and so on. No air leaks and no restrictions. I started at the fuel tank pickup and went all the way to the engine. I installed new primer bulb, end fittings and so on. I have a Tempo 12-gallon plastic tank installed under the seat platform. I have the fuel-water separator installed on the port side of the platform attached to the bottom edge of the platform and thru-bolted into the wood that runs along the bottom of the platform. This leaves the actual canister about three inches above the top of the fuel tank. From there [fuel hose] goes about 20 inches, then the primer bulb, and then finishes up at the engine. I am running 5/8-inch ID hose throughout, and I have a 1973 Evinrude 115. Should I have installed the filter canister below the tank top? Should I have installed the filter canister after the primer bulb? Is [the cause of the malfunction in the engine due to] the filter itself? I only have [run the engine only] about 30 minutes on this canister, mostly on land with a garden hose, fixing the engine. But I know Attwood has had some quality control [problems], so should I go get another canister? Maybe change to a Sierra canister? [Changed to a completely different topic. Please start a new thread to change to a completely different topic--jimh]
gss036	posted 02-05-2010 01:29 PM ET (US) I think the first thing I would do is eliminate/bypass the fuel filter to if that solves your problem. If not, then check the fuel pick up in the tank or try a different tank. Does the tank/fuel pick up has have an anti siphon valve? Is it working?
contender	posted 02-05-2010 03:06 PM ET (US) Bulbs and fuel hose lines are different sizes you need to make sure you have 3/8's hose and bulb, I have also found that it's better to go with a factory bulb (OMC), I have found some brands (after market) collapse while being used. Make sure your vent line/opening is clear and that the tank can get air. Also do as gss036 stated...good luck
ocean31	posted 02-05-2010 03:29 PM ET (US) Thanks for the replies: The vent is open, along with the vent in the cap open, I take the cap off, and just loosely put it on the tank. Just to make sure the tank is venting. No antisyphon valve, just a basic above deck 12 gallon todd tank, sold at most fine marine stores (small grin) The fuel hoses, fittings, and bulb is the largest I can find. All are sized to match. If not 5/8 then at least 3/8, I bought the largest size of everything availble at West Marine. But it sounds like no one has a problem with the actual installation. Good, next step is try a diffrent brand of filter, then if that does not work a OMC fuel bulb. Save the fuel bulb for last since I just replaced this bulb, and the previous one seemed fine but was also collapsing. Thanks again for the replies. Best place to get a replacement stern light lens? Thanks Ocean
contender	posted 02-05-2010 03:45 PM ET (US) The fuel lines and bulbs should be 3/8 inside dia. Take back the other bulbs, they are not working why should you pay for them, Try Perko for the lens, and/or type in Lewis Marine (Ft. Lauderdale), I think you can look at their catalog on line....Good luck
Stevebaz	posted 02-05-2010 06:20 PM ET (US) On my whaler I run from my tanks down to the floor then up to the primer bulb up to the filter then up to the motor. Pumping the bulb pushes fuel through the filter to the motor not the other way around. My filter is mounted on the transom well very close to the motor. Fuel lines are 3/8" I.D. aprox 5/8" O.D. I suspect your filter resistance is higher than the strength of your aftermarket fuel bulb causing collapse. I would disconnect the bulb and see if you can blow air through the hose back to the tank and check to see if the lines are clear and tank is venting properly. Good luck Steve
Fishmore	posted 02-05-2010 11:16 PM ET (US) Not to be a wise guy but are you sure you installed the in/out hoses the proper way on the filter manifold. i.e. one way in and one way out usually marked with arrows showing the direction of flow. I was also wondering if you primed the filter prior to installation on the manifold or if you just hooked up the filter dry? If done dry there could be an air pocket in the filter canister. Both items are kind of far fetched but you never know.
Fishmore	posted 02-05-2010 11:22 PM ET (US) Just reread Steve's suggestion and noted that if the filter is too fine then it could cause what Steve is suggesting. My boat uses a 21 Micron filter for a 1993 75hp Mercury engine.
ocean31	posted 02-06-2010 06:24 AM ET (US) I really do appreciate the replies, all of them have been a big help. The hoses are hooked up correctly. That was my first thought. However, the first time I started messing with this, I just dumped the fuel out of the cannister (it was full) and put the cannister back up fairly empty. It is possible that I have a fuel air lock, but would that not stop all flow? The primer bulb will refill, it just takes a minuite. I am mot sure on the two fine a filter. I just used the stock Attwood filter that came with the package, a Walmart special. I am not even sure that the filter haa a micron lable on it. I will check. My biggest concern has been installation. So far the consensus seems that the actual installation of the filter housing installed on a Katama platform seat is okay. If all else fails I will move the filter to the transom like SteveBaz mentioned. I was just hoping not to drill holes in the hull. Thanks again for the replies JSB
ocean31	posted 02-08-2010 08:21 PM ET (US) Got it, or at least I think I do. Keep in mind I just bought this 69 Katama, and she needed the basic minor repairs that is always needed whenever a boat goes up for sale. Took her out for spin today in the north end of the bay, starting at the engine, I disconnected, or bypassed each item in the fuel system till I got back to the tank. I even put the Attwood fuel separator on a U bolt and attached to the rear stanchion platform support. This way I could move the separator up to the tank top, or down to the deck level. Short answer, it seems the tank had a Yamaha fuel fitting. I had pulled the tank fitting already and made sure it was clear, thought it looked a little strange, not quite like the fuel fitting on the outboard, but just figured that was a Tempo way of doing the fitting. End result, just put the fuel hose straight into the tank, moved the fuel water separator up to the platform level and took off. No problems. Everybody at the ramp was probably thinking I was a bit strange though; Make a high speed oval turn. Kill the engine; make another high speed run, and so on......... Well off to West Marine tomorrow, pick up a proper brass tank top fuel fitting, then maybe a long run on Wed. Thanks again for all the replies. Once I get all the bugs out of this Whaler, I can finally start on my 70 bare hull. JSB
TommyWhaler	posted 02-11-2010 01:07 PM ET (US) Hi ocean. My water separator on my Katama (72), is attached under the seat platform, and that puts it higher than the old metal 6 gal tank. I have have fuel delivery problems, and they stemmed from pressure build up. A mechanic took his knife and pushed in the "ball" in the connector. Fuel shot out. He said that leaving the fuel line attached to the motor after running can cause this build up. It is a 1977 Johnson 115. Once you get your Katama running right and people admire it, mine is for sale and it is in excellent shape.
jimh	posted 02-12-2010 08:43 AM ET (US) A fuel filter can be installed at a higher level than the fuel level in the tank. This is done all the time on boats where the tank is below deck level. The filter can be installed either upstream or downstream of the primer bulb. Most fuel filters will usually specify they be installed on the suction side of the fuel pump. If you consider the primer bulb as a fuel pump--which it is--the filter should be upstream of the primer bulb. However, there are thousands of installations where the filter is downstream of the primer bulb and there is no problem in operation. If you install a canister-type spin-on fuel filter without partially filling it with fuel, there will be a large amount of air in your fuel system. Any air in the fuel system has to be removed for the fuel system to work properly. Typically air is pushed along the fuel system by the primer bulb action toward the engine. In the engine the air flows through the fuel system until it is vented out. In a carburetor motor the fuel system is vented to the atmosphere in the carburetors themselves. In a fuel injected engine the fuel system is vented by the fuel-vapor separating filter. It can be rather tedious to vent a large volume of air in the fuel system through the engine. I recommend that when installing a canister-type fuel filter that you pre-fill the canister with clean fuel before installing it. In this way the amount of air in the fuel system will be kept to a minimum, and you won't have a long period of air bleeding out. quote: "I found the fuel primer bulb collapses and the engine quits from lack of fuel." To use the condition of the fuel primer bulb as a diagnostic indicator, read my article in the REFERENCE section: A Primer on Primers http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/primer.html
clarky	posted 02-12-2010 10:42 AM ET (US) [I] had [the] same problem [with collapsing of the primer bulb and cut-off of fuel to the engine] last summer. [A]fter checkings all lines and fittings, I discovered my fuel pick-up was cloged up with crud. [Next the author says he] emptied [the] tank and discovered crud in [the] bottom of [the] 13-year-old Pate [fuel tank].
R T M	posted 02-12-2010 09:43 PM ET (US) The bulb should be located close to the engine and should lay in a close to vertical position and of course the arrow on the bulb should be pointing up(if the bulb is near vertical) towards the engine. rich/Binkie