Trailer Brakes: Electric Over Hydraulic Actuator

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Author Topic:   Trailer Brakes: Electric Over Hydraulic Actuator

jimh posted 06-15-2010 08:33 PM ET (US)
I am considering modifying my trailer brake set-up to an electrical-over-hydraulic configuration from the current hydraulic surge actuator. I am interested in hearing from others who have used electric-over-hyrdaulic brake control systems. Any comments which can give first-hand experience or comparisons of the two systems would be much appreciated.
contender posted 06-15-2010 09:51 PM ET (US)
Jim: I have the hydraulic type system, I have never had the electrical one, why do you want to change? I look at the hydraulic type pretty straight forward, step on the brakes and the weight/movement stops the trailer and I would think less things to go wrong. If its not broken ....
jechura posted 06-15-2010 10:53 PM ET (US)
Jim, I was running electrics for a few years on a work trailer before I bought the Whaler which also had duel axles, but both with only a single axle for brakes. The work trailer with 75,000 plus miles and often exceeding a total of 8,000 with never a stopping or brake related problem.
The Whaler trailer upgraded to duel axle brakes has also been trouble free. The weekend before last I completed a 1,100 mile roundtrip to participate as one of the Whaler safety boats a the Potomac River Swim.
I still use the old time delay controller and once dialed in, still works fine.
fno posted 06-16-2010 08:26 AM ET (US)
Jim, I have no first hand experience using them. But I have two friends that use them. One on a 32' Seacraft on a triple axle trailer and another with a 42' boat on a trailer. Both of them rave about the brake system as it affords plenty of stopping power, no hassles when backing up an incline, and the ability to tune the brakes to the load. If you would like I can send you some direct contact info.
Plotman posted 06-16-2010 08:42 PM ET (US)
Jim - I tow large trailers full of equipment for putting on ski races (close to 6,000lbs loaded) well over 1,000 miles each winter, often in some very marginal conditions.
Our organization used to have trailers with surge brakes, but this past year we got new trailers and went to electric brakes. In all, I like the electric brakes better, but here is what I see as the pros and cons.
Pros:
you can activate just the trailer brakes if the trailer starts to sway or get squirrily. Pulls the trailer instantly in to line.
you can adjust the braking force for a given amount of pedal push on the tow vehicle by adjusting the gain on the brake controller.
you aren't going to burn out the brakes going down a long hill using engine braking.
it is easy to test the trailer brakes - just drive at idle speed in a parking lot and activate the trailer brakes manually.
Cons:
You need to add an electronic brake controller to your tow vehicle (not a big deal - the cost less than $100. My 99 Ford was plug-and-play, but my 2007 suburban required me to crawl up under the dash to find tucked away wires, and then under the hood to do the same. Had to connect the under hood wires to studs on the fuse block, and the under dash wires to the controller. Dealer wanted $300, but a little sleuthing on the google got me dialed in. Took under an hour.)
They (electric over hydraulic) are more complicated - more to go wrong.
You can't use any old tow vehicle and have brakes.
Fail safe mode isn't as straight forward. On surge brakes, you have a third cable that locks the brakes if it gets pulled (as in when the trailer separates from the tow vehicle when it isn't supposed to and the safety chains fail). I don't believe our trailers with electronic brakes have any such system. Fortunately, neither I nor anyone in our organization have tested them.
Hope this helps.
cohasett73 posted 06-17-2010 07:54 AM ET (US)
I concur with plotmans pro's, and a electic braked trailer is much less likely to jackknife than one with surge brakes.
Tom from Rubicon,WI
email me if you would like to see the load I pulled with my 3/4 ton diesel Chevy.
Jerry Townsend posted 06-17-2010 11:13 AM ET (US)
Jim - I have pulled a bunch of stuff - and have made four trailers (flat bed and horse, single/tandem axle) and all with electric brakes. My boat trailer has the surge brakes - which I don't like - and will replace with electric brakes, but then, I have said that for the last 8 years.
But, one of the most important items with any trailer braking system (electric or hydraulic) is the manual control capability. In fact, on two of the trailers, just the manual control was used. This is particularily true with the heavier trailers, as the towed weight approaches or even exceeds the weight of the tow vehicle -(akin to the tail wagging the dog), decending a long grade, towing on slick roads, et al. Wonder why there is a manual control on the 18 wheelers - or at least there used to be 40 - 50 years ago?
But, as one pointed out above, the automatic brake lock-up when disconnected is not available with the majority of the electric brake systems. Incorporating this could be done without insurmountable problems - but then, I have never had a trailer come loose. As such, I probably would give the automatic brake lock-up much consideration.m--- Jerry/Idaho
dfmcintyre posted 06-17-2010 12:46 PM ET (US)
Jim -
Until Gail purchased a horse trailer equipped with an electric system, I'd always towed with surge. Never had a problem, except when (rarely) having to backup up a slope.
Her trailer made me a believer in the pros of an electric system. And this is one without the optional disk brake, just drums.
As far as the emergency lockup, it is on her trailer; it's a motorcycle battery setup that when an emergency type of disconnect occurs, the lightweight breakaway cable is pulled. A circuit is energized and powers the actuators in each drum. Battery is charged through the 12VAC tow vehicle system.
Whats nice about this system, is you can get very granular with the settings. I can set braking strength for an empty trailer; one with one horse or both horses or one or two motorcycles within 15 seconds. Nifty. Probably more control then what is needed for pulling a boat.
I'll probably convert over my Eagle trailer to electrics someday.
Best - Don
andygere posted 06-18-2010 09:25 PM ET (US)
The system Jim is talking about is not a straight electric system. Electric over hydraulic uses an electrically powered brake actuator on ordinary hydraulic brakes. The advantages are those noted for electrics, but without submerging electric wheel cylinders, which I surmise would last about a trip or two before failing.
I see only 2 downsides with this system: cost, and the need for a battery back up in the event that the trailer decouples from the tow vehicle. I had that happen about a year ago, and the simple cable actuator on my hydraulic system worked as it should, and brought the trailer to a quick stop with no damage. The battery system would do the same, so long as the electrical connections are good and the battery maintains a charge.
I tow the same size boat as Jim with the same size truck, and I have to tow mine over an 1800 foot pass to go just about anywhere. When I redid my brake system a year or so ago, I considered the electric over hydraulic actuator (my truck already has a brake controller), but couldn't justify the extra expense and complexity for the limited amount of towing that I do. For the long tow trips that Jim takes, it may well be worth the expense.
jimh posted 06-18-2010 11:21 PM ET (US)
My motivation to collect some information on electric-over-hydraulic brakes comes from a possible need to replace my current surge brake controller. Although my trailer dates from 1992, and would be celebrating its 18th birthday this year, I don't think it actually has too many more miles on it than the ones I have put on since buying it about five years ago. It showed very little use when I bought it--almost like new. However, a replacement may be needed; I have a bit more testing to conduct before deciding.
The current surge controller is a DICO Model 6. I can replace it for about $210 plus shipping costs. Installing it would be very simple, and once installed about the only adjustment needed would be to bleed the hydraulic lines. That might cost about $5 for brake fluid.
The alternative of installing electric-over-hydraulic brakes would require purchase of:
--new trailer coupler, $75
--new brake actuator, electric-over-hydraulic, $550
--new brakeaway battery and switch, $75
--new proportional electronic brake controller, $125
TOTAL = $825
The installation would be complicated, and it probably would require buying a few additional items. I would have to fabricate some mounting plates for the actuator and the breakaway battery. I can see another $25 at least in added costs, and quite a bit of time involved in the installation.
One reason for the move is from my situation with the storage of the boat. I typically drop off the boat at my storage place, and the yard then uses a fork lift truck with a trailer ball on its fork to maneuver the trailer. They have to back the trailer uphill into a storage building. This seems to put a lot of stress on the brakes, the brake actuator, and the coupler. When a trailer with surge brakes is backed uphill the surge actuator is compressed and the brakes are applied quite hard. The brakes are the free-backing design, so they can be backed up without too much trouble, even if they are being applied hard by the actuator.
tmann45 posted 06-19-2010 09:33 AM ET (US)
Jim,
If backing of your trailer in the yard in your main concern, take a look at this coupler. It has a pin that you can insert that locks out the hydralics. http://www.tiedown.com/aactuator.html When the pin is in the Reverse Lockout Option position it prevents the hydraulic cylinder pistion from stroking and actuating the brakes. I just bought one for $120 plus shipping for my conversion from drum to disk brakes.
tmann45 posted 06-19-2010 09:45 AM ET (US)
Correction on price, the one I bought was rated for 6600#, not 8000#.
Orca posted 06-21-2010 12:29 AM ET (US)
Changed to this system from surge two weeks ago.Mated the new setup to 2009 2500 Chev.with a factory installed trailer brake set up.I am on my way from Denver to the Keys and can say the braking control with a tri axel trailer and a 27 ft Challanger has (so far) been impressive.We are experiencing a problem with the vehicle consistantly acknowlidging the trailer.Trailer checks out,the truck shows no codes but we have to start and turn on and off the truck to get the proper connection.The dealer is miffed as well as the trailer tech.Will keep you posted.
andygere posted 06-21-2010 01:20 AM ET (US)
Jim, I have the Tiedown actuator as well, and the simple brake lock-out pin works great. It prevents the actuator from moving when in place, and allows even disk brakes to be backed up hill as you describe. It would be a simple matter to switch to this brand from what you have, and cost is a little less than the Dico. When towing, the pin goes into a different hole that provides a safety latch on the coupler to ball attachment.
Here's a link to a page with a nice diagram of the unit:
http://www.tiedown.com/aactuator.html
Orca posted 06-21-2010 01:44 PM ET (US)
Prices in Denver
Brake actuator drum 741.34
breakaway kit and charger 56.95
mounting plate 7.30
wheel cylinder single servo 27.09 each (one for each brake)
labor to install and remove surge 525.00
We also installed a duel cam sway control 225.00
Weight dist. hitch 355.00
Reese hitch bar 14" long 203.14
Labor on hitch was 168.79

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Author	Topic: Trailer Brakes: Electric Over Hydraulic Actuator
jimh	posted 06-15-2010 08:33 PM ET (US) I am considering modifying my trailer brake set-up to an electrical-over-hydraulic configuration from the current hydraulic surge actuator. I am interested in hearing from others who have used electric-over-hyrdaulic brake control systems. Any comments which can give first-hand experience or comparisons of the two systems would be much appreciated.
contender	posted 06-15-2010 09:51 PM ET (US) Jim: I have the hydraulic type system, I have never had the electrical one, why do you want to change? I look at the hydraulic type pretty straight forward, step on the brakes and the weight/movement stops the trailer and I would think less things to go wrong. If its not broken ....
jechura	posted 06-15-2010 10:53 PM ET (US) Jim, I was running electrics for a few years on a work trailer before I bought the Whaler which also had duel axles, but both with only a single axle for brakes. The work trailer with 75,000 plus miles and often exceeding a total of 8,000 with never a stopping or brake related problem. The Whaler trailer upgraded to duel axle brakes has also been trouble free. The weekend before last I completed a 1,100 mile roundtrip to participate as one of the Whaler safety boats a the Potomac River Swim. I still use the old time delay controller and once dialed in, still works fine.
fno	posted 06-16-2010 08:26 AM ET (US) Jim, I have no first hand experience using them. But I have two friends that use them. One on a 32' Seacraft on a triple axle trailer and another with a 42' boat on a trailer. Both of them rave about the brake system as it affords plenty of stopping power, no hassles when backing up an incline, and the ability to tune the brakes to the load. If you would like I can send you some direct contact info.
Plotman	posted 06-16-2010 08:42 PM ET (US) Jim - I tow large trailers full of equipment for putting on ski races (close to 6,000lbs loaded) well over 1,000 miles each winter, often in some very marginal conditions. Our organization used to have trailers with surge brakes, but this past year we got new trailers and went to electric brakes. In all, I like the electric brakes better, but here is what I see as the pros and cons. Pros: you can activate just the trailer brakes if the trailer starts to sway or get squirrily. Pulls the trailer instantly in to line. you can adjust the braking force for a given amount of pedal push on the tow vehicle by adjusting the gain on the brake controller. you aren't going to burn out the brakes going down a long hill using engine braking. it is easy to test the trailer brakes - just drive at idle speed in a parking lot and activate the trailer brakes manually. Cons: You need to add an electronic brake controller to your tow vehicle (not a big deal - the cost less than $100. My 99 Ford was plug-and-play, but my 2007 suburban required me to crawl up under the dash to find tucked away wires, and then under the hood to do the same. Had to connect the under hood wires to studs on the fuse block, and the under dash wires to the controller. Dealer wanted $300, but a little sleuthing on the google got me dialed in. Took under an hour.) They (electric over hydraulic) are more complicated - more to go wrong. You can't use any old tow vehicle and have brakes. Fail safe mode isn't as straight forward. On surge brakes, you have a third cable that locks the brakes if it gets pulled (as in when the trailer separates from the tow vehicle when it isn't supposed to and the safety chains fail). I don't believe our trailers with electronic brakes have any such system. Fortunately, neither I nor anyone in our organization have tested them. Hope this helps.
cohasett73	posted 06-17-2010 07:54 AM ET (US) I concur with plotmans pro's, and a electic braked trailer is much less likely to jackknife than one with surge brakes. Tom from Rubicon,WI email me if you would like to see the load I pulled with my 3/4 ton diesel Chevy.
Jerry Townsend	posted 06-17-2010 11:13 AM ET (US) Jim - I have pulled a bunch of stuff - and have made four trailers (flat bed and horse, single/tandem axle) and all with electric brakes. My boat trailer has the surge brakes - which I don't like - and will replace with electric brakes, but then, I have said that for the last 8 years. But, one of the most important items with any trailer braking system (electric or hydraulic) is the manual control capability. In fact, on two of the trailers, just the manual control was used. This is particularily true with the heavier trailers, as the towed weight approaches or even exceeds the weight of the tow vehicle -(akin to the tail wagging the dog), decending a long grade, towing on slick roads, et al. Wonder why there is a manual control on the 18 wheelers - or at least there used to be 40 - 50 years ago? But, as one pointed out above, the automatic brake lock-up when disconnected is not available with the majority of the electric brake systems. Incorporating this could be done without insurmountable problems - but then, I have never had a trailer come loose. As such, I probably would give the automatic brake lock-up much consideration.m--- Jerry/Idaho
dfmcintyre	posted 06-17-2010 12:46 PM ET (US) Jim - Until Gail purchased a horse trailer equipped with an electric system, I'd always towed with surge. Never had a problem, except when (rarely) having to backup up a slope. Her trailer made me a believer in the pros of an electric system. And this is one without the optional disk brake, just drums. As far as the emergency lockup, it is on her trailer; it's a motorcycle battery setup that when an emergency type of disconnect occurs, the lightweight breakaway cable is pulled. A circuit is energized and powers the actuators in each drum. Battery is charged through the 12VAC tow vehicle system. Whats nice about this system, is you can get very granular with the settings. I can set braking strength for an empty trailer; one with one horse or both horses or one or two motorcycles within 15 seconds. Nifty. Probably more control then what is needed for pulling a boat. I'll probably convert over my Eagle trailer to electrics someday. Best - Don
andygere	posted 06-18-2010 09:25 PM ET (US) The system Jim is talking about is not a straight electric system. Electric over hydraulic uses an electrically powered brake actuator on ordinary hydraulic brakes. The advantages are those noted for electrics, but without submerging electric wheel cylinders, which I surmise would last about a trip or two before failing. I see only 2 downsides with this system: cost, and the need for a battery back up in the event that the trailer decouples from the tow vehicle. I had that happen about a year ago, and the simple cable actuator on my hydraulic system worked as it should, and brought the trailer to a quick stop with no damage. The battery system would do the same, so long as the electrical connections are good and the battery maintains a charge. I tow the same size boat as Jim with the same size truck, and I have to tow mine over an 1800 foot pass to go just about anywhere. When I redid my brake system a year or so ago, I considered the electric over hydraulic actuator (my truck already has a brake controller), but couldn't justify the extra expense and complexity for the limited amount of towing that I do. For the long tow trips that Jim takes, it may well be worth the expense.
jimh	posted 06-18-2010 11:21 PM ET (US) My motivation to collect some information on electric-over-hydraulic brakes comes from a possible need to replace my current surge brake controller. Although my trailer dates from 1992, and would be celebrating its 18th birthday this year, I don't think it actually has too many more miles on it than the ones I have put on since buying it about five years ago. It showed very little use when I bought it--almost like new. However, a replacement may be needed; I have a bit more testing to conduct before deciding. The current surge controller is a DICO Model 6. I can replace it for about $210 plus shipping costs. Installing it would be very simple, and once installed about the only adjustment needed would be to bleed the hydraulic lines. That might cost about $5 for brake fluid. The alternative of installing electric-over-hydraulic brakes would require purchase of: --new trailer coupler, $75 --new brake actuator, electric-over-hydraulic, $550 --new brakeaway battery and switch, $75 --new proportional electronic brake controller, $125 TOTAL = $825 The installation would be complicated, and it probably would require buying a few additional items. I would have to fabricate some mounting plates for the actuator and the breakaway battery. I can see another $25 at least in added costs, and quite a bit of time involved in the installation. One reason for the move is from my situation with the storage of the boat. I typically drop off the boat at my storage place, and the yard then uses a fork lift truck with a trailer ball on its fork to maneuver the trailer. They have to back the trailer uphill into a storage building. This seems to put a lot of stress on the brakes, the brake actuator, and the coupler. When a trailer with surge brakes is backed uphill the surge actuator is compressed and the brakes are applied quite hard. The brakes are the free-backing design, so they can be backed up without too much trouble, even if they are being applied hard by the actuator.
tmann45	posted 06-19-2010 09:33 AM ET (US) Jim, If backing of your trailer in the yard in your main concern, take a look at this coupler. It has a pin that you can insert that locks out the hydralics. http://www.tiedown.com/aactuator.html When the pin is in the Reverse Lockout Option position it prevents the hydraulic cylinder pistion from stroking and actuating the brakes. I just bought one for $120 plus shipping for my conversion from drum to disk brakes.
tmann45	posted 06-19-2010 09:45 AM ET (US) Correction on price, the one I bought was rated for 6600#, not 8000#.
Orca	posted 06-21-2010 12:29 AM ET (US) Changed to this system from surge two weeks ago.Mated the new setup to 2009 2500 Chev.with a factory installed trailer brake set up.I am on my way from Denver to the Keys and can say the braking control with a tri axel trailer and a 27 ft Challanger has (so far) been impressive.We are experiencing a problem with the vehicle consistantly acknowlidging the trailer.Trailer checks out,the truck shows no codes but we have to start and turn on and off the truck to get the proper connection.The dealer is miffed as well as the trailer tech.Will keep you posted.
andygere	posted 06-21-2010 01:20 AM ET (US) Jim, I have the Tiedown actuator as well, and the simple brake lock-out pin works great. It prevents the actuator from moving when in place, and allows even disk brakes to be backed up hill as you describe. It would be a simple matter to switch to this brand from what you have, and cost is a little less than the Dico. When towing, the pin goes into a different hole that provides a safety latch on the coupler to ball attachment. Here's a link to a page with a nice diagram of the unit: http://www.tiedown.com/aactuator.html
Orca	posted 06-21-2010 01:44 PM ET (US) Prices in Denver Brake actuator drum 741.34 breakaway kit and charger 56.95 mounting plate 7.30 wheel cylinder single servo 27.09 each (one for each brake) labor to install and remove surge 525.00 We also installed a duel cam sway control 225.00 Weight dist. hitch 355.00 Reese hitch bar 14" long 203.14 Labor on hitch was 168.79