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Author Topic:   Diagnose Starting Problem From Video

Frank O posted 12-31-2010 06:25 PM ET (US)
Do the symptoms of the engine in the video below seem as though they could be caused by water in the fuel system?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvIDuKxQsoo
Today my son and I started the 1994 Mercury Offshore 3.0L 225hp carbureted two-stroke engine on my Outrage 21 after it hadn't been run for a couple of months. It started after a couple of tries, and ran normally for 30 or 45 seconds. We then switched it off and went to run an errand for about 10 minutes.
When we came back, the engine wouldn't start. The video above was shot at this point. I wondered about water because last week was unusually wet here in Southern California, with one particularly heavy rainstorm. (The boat is kept in a slip, and is not winterized as we usually use it year-round.)
When I can make the time I'll go back and check the fuel-water separator filter and possibly try running the engine off a portable tank with known clean fuel. But in the meantime I was curious if anyone here might have thoughts on this.

contender posted 12-31-2010 06:33 PM ET (US)
You do have some type of gas problem, but your battery is does not seem to be turing the engine over fast enough. Do like you have stated. Try starting. Run off of a small tank. I would use some starting spray to start the engine. Charge the battery. Good luck
jimh posted 12-31-2010 06:38 PM ET (US)
It looks like the engine is firing, but immediately runs out of fuel.
Frank O posted 12-31-2010 07:00 PM ET (US)
Contender, that's an interesting comment about the cranking rate because the battery I was using was freshly charged in our garage at home. It's an Interstate deep cycle battery, 550 cold cranking amps, purchased new about two months ago.
I don't think I've ever heard the outboard crank any faster than that. Could this be a sign of an aging starter motor? I wonder if cleaning terminals and so on would result in any improvement? This cranking rate, though, has always been sufficient to get the outboard going in the past.
contender posted 12-31-2010 07:27 PM ET (US)
Could also be a loose terminal, loose connection, bad wire to small of a wire, starter going bad. I'm not saying the engine will not start just sounds like its turning a tad slow...But the fuel is your 1st problem...Good luck
Frank O posted 12-31-2010 07:47 PM ET (US)
Thanks. I haven't needed to use starting spray before. Would you remove the air box and spray it into each carb? Also, is there much difference in brands of spray, or will any do?
contender posted 12-31-2010 09:42 PM ET (US)
Frank: Any will do, If you can have someone turn the engine over while you do the spray the carbs should suck it in. If it is easy to remove (air box) go ahead. Watch out were you place your hands while spraying (do not rest it on the flywheel seen this before) And you do not have to over spray (very flamable) Be careful...Happy New Year
wezie posted 01-03-2011 08:31 AM ET (US)
The ether starting spray does not have any oil in it. for your 2 cycle;
it is a tool, not to be used very much, or for more than one or two squirts.
If there is a fuel supply problem anyway, there will be no oil in the cylinder very quickly. It goes down hill from there.
A spray bottle of mixed gas/oil will work just about as well and does not wipe the lube from the cylinders.
You may be able to apply either without removing the intake; worth trying.
Good luck!
adlert posted 01-03-2011 09:23 AM ET (US)
Wezie offers very good advice. Ether use in 2 stroke outboards is undesirable. Better to use some pre-mix or even a shot of WD-40 would be preferable to ether.
I assume some of your attempts were with priming (choking) and some with out? Was your throttle advanced?
weekendwarrior posted 01-03-2011 04:20 PM ET (US)
Ether (starting spray) doesn't have any lube in it, but it burns very very easily. Easier than gas, which is why it works so well as a starting fluid.
Frank O posted 01-04-2011 09:41 PM ET (US)
I'd seen warnings elsewhere about using ether on 2-strokes. It'd be easy to put some premix fuel in a spray bottle.
Adlert, yes, I did try starting both with pressing in on the key to activate the choke and without. That's a good suggestion about advancing the throttle. I didn't try that yet in this case, but it did help when I had some starting trouble previously.
adlert posted 01-05-2011 10:26 AM ET (US)
Frank O,
Without advancing the throttle, all of my old OMC engines would behave exactly as yours did in the video under those circumstances. It's just a normal part of the routine starting for older carbed 2 strokes and not limited to yours, or my engines. I'm actually a bit surprised you (apparently) haven't had to raise the throttle in the past. Sure, when the engine is fully warm, maybe not. But most outboards cool quickly and you never warmed yours up actually and then left it for several minutes. It's possible (I'm guessing likely) you don't really have any engine or fuel problems at all.
Tim
adlert posted 01-05-2011 01:16 PM ET (US)
Regarding concern over using ether in 2 strokes, I was taught in OMC training school that the concern was because ether is just that, so very flammable. I don't remember the lack of lubrication being mentioned though that also makes sense. The instructor's warning was that because ether burns so very easily, the risk of a crankcase explosion while using it in two strokes while is unacceptably high. He seemed to have first-hand experience with this problem. I honestly have not nor have I ever known someone who has. It does however seem like a valid concern and unnecessary risk. At best, you're generally working around a problem versus correcting it.
If a "classic" 2-stroke won't start normally, or with an extra shot of good fuel/oil mix put down it's throats (advanced throttle and NO choke for this latter technique), you've got a problem that needs correction and it best to start looking for that problem.
Frank O posted 01-23-2011 02:53 PM ET (US)
All's well that ends well. After cleaning the battery terminals and advancing the throttle while starting, the outboard started up without too much difficulty. Thanks to adlert and contender for the advice.
Clark Roberts posted 01-24-2011 09:13 AM ET (US)
FYI, WalMart starting fluid contains oil...check it out

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Author	Topic: Diagnose Starting Problem From Video
Frank O	posted 12-31-2010 06:25 PM ET (US) Do the symptoms of the engine in the video below seem as though they could be caused by water in the fuel system? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvIDuKxQsoo Today my son and I started the 1994 Mercury Offshore 3.0L 225hp carbureted two-stroke engine on my Outrage 21 after it hadn't been run for a couple of months. It started after a couple of tries, and ran normally for 30 or 45 seconds. We then switched it off and went to run an errand for about 10 minutes. When we came back, the engine wouldn't start. The video above was shot at this point. I wondered about water because last week was unusually wet here in Southern California, with one particularly heavy rainstorm. (The boat is kept in a slip, and is not winterized as we usually use it year-round.) When I can make the time I'll go back and check the fuel-water separator filter and possibly try running the engine off a portable tank with known clean fuel. But in the meantime I was curious if anyone here might have thoughts on this.
contender	posted 12-31-2010 06:33 PM ET (US) You do have some type of gas problem, but your battery is does not seem to be turing the engine over fast enough. Do like you have stated. Try starting. Run off of a small tank. I would use some starting spray to start the engine. Charge the battery. Good luck
jimh	posted 12-31-2010 06:38 PM ET (US) It looks like the engine is firing, but immediately runs out of fuel.
Frank O	posted 12-31-2010 07:00 PM ET (US) Contender, that's an interesting comment about the cranking rate because the battery I was using was freshly charged in our garage at home. It's an Interstate deep cycle battery, 550 cold cranking amps, purchased new about two months ago. I don't think I've ever heard the outboard crank any faster than that. Could this be a sign of an aging starter motor? I wonder if cleaning terminals and so on would result in any improvement? This cranking rate, though, has always been sufficient to get the outboard going in the past.
contender	posted 12-31-2010 07:27 PM ET (US) Could also be a loose terminal, loose connection, bad wire to small of a wire, starter going bad. I'm not saying the engine will not start just sounds like its turning a tad slow...But the fuel is your 1st problem...Good luck
Frank O	posted 12-31-2010 07:47 PM ET (US) Thanks. I haven't needed to use starting spray before. Would you remove the air box and spray it into each carb? Also, is there much difference in brands of spray, or will any do?
contender	posted 12-31-2010 09:42 PM ET (US) Frank: Any will do, If you can have someone turn the engine over while you do the spray the carbs should suck it in. If it is easy to remove (air box) go ahead. Watch out were you place your hands while spraying (do not rest it on the flywheel seen this before) And you do not have to over spray (very flamable) Be careful...Happy New Year
wezie	posted 01-03-2011 08:31 AM ET (US) The ether starting spray does not have any oil in it. for your 2 cycle; it is a tool, not to be used very much, or for more than one or two squirts. If there is a fuel supply problem anyway, there will be no oil in the cylinder very quickly. It goes down hill from there. A spray bottle of mixed gas/oil will work just about as well and does not wipe the lube from the cylinders. You may be able to apply either without removing the intake; worth trying. Good luck!
adlert	posted 01-03-2011 09:23 AM ET (US) Wezie offers very good advice. Ether use in 2 stroke outboards is undesirable. Better to use some pre-mix or even a shot of WD-40 would be preferable to ether. I assume some of your attempts were with priming (choking) and some with out? Was your throttle advanced?
weekendwarrior	posted 01-03-2011 04:20 PM ET (US) Ether (starting spray) doesn't have any lube in it, but it burns very very easily. Easier than gas, which is why it works so well as a starting fluid.
Frank O	posted 01-04-2011 09:41 PM ET (US) I'd seen warnings elsewhere about using ether on 2-strokes. It'd be easy to put some premix fuel in a spray bottle. Adlert, yes, I did try starting both with pressing in on the key to activate the choke and without. That's a good suggestion about advancing the throttle. I didn't try that yet in this case, but it did help when I had some starting trouble previously.
adlert	posted 01-05-2011 10:26 AM ET (US) Frank O, Without advancing the throttle, all of my old OMC engines would behave exactly as yours did in the video under those circumstances. It's just a normal part of the routine starting for older carbed 2 strokes and not limited to yours, or my engines. I'm actually a bit surprised you (apparently) haven't had to raise the throttle in the past. Sure, when the engine is fully warm, maybe not. But most outboards cool quickly and you never warmed yours up actually and then left it for several minutes. It's possible (I'm guessing likely) you don't really have any engine or fuel problems at all. Tim
adlert	posted 01-05-2011 01:16 PM ET (US) Regarding concern over using ether in 2 strokes, I was taught in OMC training school that the concern was because ether is just that, so very flammable. I don't remember the lack of lubrication being mentioned though that also makes sense. The instructor's warning was that because ether burns so very easily, the risk of a crankcase explosion while using it in two strokes while is unacceptably high. He seemed to have first-hand experience with this problem. I honestly have not nor have I ever known someone who has. It does however seem like a valid concern and unnecessary risk. At best, you're generally working around a problem versus correcting it. If a "classic" 2-stroke won't start normally, or with an extra shot of good fuel/oil mix put down it's throats (advanced throttle and NO choke for this latter technique), you've got a problem that needs correction and it best to start looking for that problem.
Frank O	posted 01-23-2011 02:53 PM ET (US) All's well that ends well. After cleaning the battery terminals and advancing the throttle while starting, the outboard started up without too much difficulty. Thanks to adlert and contender for the advice.
Clark Roberts	posted 01-24-2011 09:13 AM ET (US) FYI, WalMart starting fluid contains oil...check it out