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Author Topic:   Repair Epoxy

Russ 13 posted 02-13-2012 02:35 PM ET (US)
I am starting a recondition project on a 15-foot classic. There are several holes that need to be filled on vertical surfaces. I am looking for a thick epoxy that is fast drying, to avoid the filler an repair substance running out of the repair area before it cures. Any suggestions [will be welcome]. Thanks.
rusty hook posted 02-13-2012 06:11 PM ET (US)
I use 3M 5200 for all my hole filling duties, anyone else have any suggestions?
SpongeBob posted 02-13-2012 08:01 PM ET (US)
MarineTex in white. You can tint it if you wish.
Jeff
dfmcintyre posted 02-13-2012 08:08 PM ET (US)
You might try mixing a little of one of the West systems additives as a thickening agent to [ASI epoxy]. Try it on a board or piece of cardboard first, to make sure there's no mixing issues. As far as it coming back out of the hole, you can create a little dam out of tape around the bottom of the hole and pour it in. I've had success in using that method to create a solid plug of straight epoxy. Once it kicks off, and is almost solid, I cut off the excess with an cardboard cutting knife on edge. Carefully.
Regards - Don
jimh posted 02-13-2012 08:46 PM ET (US)
You can thicken epoxy with a filler. When filling holes, you are not looking for strength, so some filler is not a problem. Cure time can be modified by choosing the hardener and resin combination. Temperature also affects cure time.
Binkster posted 02-13-2012 08:56 PM ET (US)
Don't ever use 5200 as a hole filler. Its a freakin adhesive, not a hole filler. I see so many holes that have 5200 globbed around them it makes me sick. Use MarineTex or marine bondo. On horizontal holes Gorilla glue works great.
rich
Owtrayj25 posted 02-14-2012 11:01 AM ET (US)
Binkster sez

quote:
Don't ever use 5200 as a hole filler. Its a freakin adhesive, not a hole filler
and then goes on to say

quote:
On horizontal holes Gorilla glue works great.
LOL.
Nevek posted 02-14-2012 11:44 AM ET (US)
I used thickened West System epoxy (407 filler) injected with a squeeze bottle and a cut ballpoint pen tube to get to the bottom of the hole. Fill from bottom up and then cover with visqueen to get flush with surface. Be sure to overdrill the holes and bevel the outside and inside. Think hourglass shaped plug.
ConB posted 02-14-2012 02:20 PM ET (US)
West System, the choice of professionals. Learn the system and you will accept no substitutes. Including these syringes for injecting thickened or unthickened epoxy into holes.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ ProductDisplay?productId=14957&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151& storeNum=50218&subdeptNum=50219&classNum=50227
Con
sdespop posted 02-14-2012 03:08 PM ET (US)
West system thickened with 205 hardener & 407 filler. Fast curing & easily sandable.
Binkster posted 02-14-2012 05:15 PM ET (US)
You wouldn't be LOLing if you ever used Gorilla glue on horizontal holes. yea, I know its glue, but it works. I won't go into the details here the're are alot of threads about it to fill holes. You can't sand 5200 flush.
Owtrayj25 posted 02-14-2012 05:28 PM ET (US)
You're right, I haven't used Gorilla glue to fill holes..."It's a Freakin Adhesive". Gorilla glue is difficult to work with in small holes; when it gets on your hands, get comfortable with the look of the spots cause they will be there a couple days. Acetone doesn't even remove it. It can't be thickened and expands when it cures.
Your earlier suggestion of MarineTex is a good one; stick with that or thickened epoxy.
Russ 13 posted 02-15-2012 07:51 AM ET (US)
THANK YOU for all the suggestions, I will pass on the 5200, as I use it to seal through hull fittings [and] such. I will try the slightly thickened epoxy, [and] will use the tips [and] link. My plan is to make several strong repairs--"Like it never even happened"--and then finish the interior in a nicely sprayed Desert Tan two-part epoxy paint.--Russ
frauke75 posted 02-15-2012 11:35 AM ET (US)
I am about to use WEST SYSTEM® Six-10. It comes in a standard caulk tube and self mixes. I was going to get the little epoxy packets but the kit with the filler was more expensive (kit over $30 and this is like $20). And this way I do not need to worry about any mixing/hardening issues and it is already thick. It comes in white or clear.
I was a bit worried about it so I emailed west systems and they replied:
“The Six-10 would work to fill the transducer screw holes below the waterline. I would recommend drilling on each side of the hole with a chamfer bit, so when you fill with epoxy you create an epoxy rivet. A straw can be attached to the end of the static mixer with duct tape and the Six-10 with flow through a small hole. Let the epoxy cure for a couple days at room temperature and remove all amine blush with only water, no solvent is needed to remove blush. Sand the cured epoxy with 80 grit before applying gel coat paste.”
Just thought I would share. It is a new product and seems perfect for the application.
Also would be interested if anyone thought had concerns following this method... before I do it.
Binkster posted 02-15-2012 01:09 PM ET (US)
Six-10 seems like a complicated and expensive way to fill a few screw holes. Again it is an adhesive mainly used for glueing fiberglass parts together. I still would go with MarineTex for hole filling. I have never seen a MarineTex plug pop out of a hole.
L H G posted 02-15-2012 03:53 PM ET (US)
I hate to say it, but I think all of the above advice is wrong and will give sub-standard results! You want to use polyester resin based Evercoat Formula #27, which hardens in 5 minutes or so, and is easy to work with, including sanding. In addition, you can gelcoat right over it! Except for rail base stripped out screw repairs, where I use Marine-Tex since it will be covered by the fitting, I use Evercoat Formula #27 exclusively on my boats, and most think they look pretty good!
Check out Jim's Reference Section for Boston Whaler's official hull repair information also. It says to use polyester resin.
Russ 13 posted 02-15-2012 05:48 PM ET (US)
Well I plan to start the restoration next week.
I was leaning toward epoxy products, due to the final
paint finish being a two part epoxy based paint.
(I did not want incompatability issues, where I had made repairs)
I have used this paint before & it is flexable enough &
durable enough to withstand boat use.
The last boat painted is still looking great, five years later.
So I will try the epoxy & Marine tex, and post my results.
Thanks again for all the tips.
frauke75 posted 02-15-2012 06:00 PM ET (US)
Binkster: I am sure you know more than me and I so far have only researched and have no practical knowledge. I think MatineTex is also a fine choice (especially because he said he will be painting) I almost was going to use it but found the six-10 and it sounded better for me and my limited skills.
I think all are as good as the skills of the one using it.
I do not think Six-10 is any more expensive then MatineTex or any other when you add up everything you need to apply it. I just found it online for $14 a tube.
The steps they gave me sounded complicated due to my desire to cover it with gel coat patch paste but the rest is how West System normally suggests filling holes. If anything I think it is easier because you don't have to mix anything, worry about proportions and not making too much or too little.
Just squirt it in and cap it off and store it.
As far as its an adhesive: aren't all epoxies adhesives. MatineTex advertises that it forms strong bonds with etc... (another word for adheres to) it is also a epoxy. This adhesive bonding is why I went with an epoxy over a poly.
For anyone who is interested the West System guy told me:
“The Six-10 is similar to our 105 Resin and 206 Slow Hardener with 406 Colloidal Silica Filler that is thicken to a non-sag consistency, but has the properties of shear thinning so works well to fill thin voids.”
So it is kinda like what everyone who suggested epoxy and fillers said... but in a caulk gun!
...and even I know how to use one of those.
Only down side I see is that it uses a slow hardener (but it is winter and I got time)
Powergroove803 posted 02-15-2012 10:10 PM ET (US)
Formula 27 from West Marine is my fave and its easy, quick, dries white, or can be tinted. Its a marine Bondo that will curer very hard without cracking
Owtrayj25 posted 02-16-2012 08:43 AM ET (US)
Advising thickened epoxy as a repair base for a sprayed paint finish (or gelcoat for that matter) is not wrong as some have suggested. In fact, epoxy is likely the preferred base for a paint based finish coat which is contemplated here.
As for the use of gelcoat over epoxy, suggesting this is wrong is old school, out of date thinking. Gelcoat over epoxy is an accepted method in use at many high end boat yards. Your only risk with gelcoat over epoxy is if you do not follow instructions very well. Mixing epoxy, such as West Systems epoxy, in correct quantities and allowing for proper cure creates a good base for gelcoat application. If the epoxy is not mixed as directed, you may experience adhesion problems with whatever you choose as a finish.
Once the epoxy has cured, a simple wash of the area with water (no soap, no solvents) to remove any amine blush (it's water soluble) and you are ready to prep for gelcoat. I have made a number of repairs using West Syetems on very tough areas like outside corners of my boat transom, and the epoxy/gel has performed admirably for many years. The structural characteristics of epoxy were especially beneficial in dealing with an exposed, outside corner application.
Also, epoxy has structural characteristics, which most polyester resins do not, so it is an inherently stronger material.
sdespop posted 02-16-2012 03:23 PM ET (US)
I think that the bottom line of this thread is that everybody has their own preferred material and method of filling holes or making other repairs. Some swear by epoxy, some Marine Tex, etc. There is no one way to go about making repairs si go with what you feel is right for you.
L H G posted 02-16-2012 04:18 PM ET (US)
Had the original poster indicated the boat was going to be Awlgripped and not gelcoat repaired, I would have not bothered with my post.
I have had bad luck using gelcoat over Marine-Tex epoxy. Didn't work for me. It is too hard in comparison to the boat's polyester resin gelcoat to sand and fair properly also. A year later the gelcoat popped and peeled off.
Epoxy is not worth the risk for the amount of work that gelcoat repairs require.
Both Spectrun and Mini-Craft gelcoat manufacturers say not to use their product over epoxy.
sdespop posted 02-16-2012 06:51 PM ET (US)
the problem with gel over epoxy is a failure to remove the amine blush from the surface of the epoxy prior to gel application. This also applies to putting epoxy over a fully cured layer of epoxy or any other coating such as varnish. If amine blush is left on the epoxy surface, NOTHING will bond to it. It is easily removed with warm water & a scotchbrite pad. West System stresses this in their literature. It all boils down to proper mixing, proper application, & proper preparation prior to topcoating. There are even amine free epoxies available now although I haven't had any experience with them. I swear by West System & use it for pretty much all structural & cosmetic repairs. Haven't had any issues in the 5 years or so that I've used it.
Basshole posted 02-16-2012 10:16 PM ET (US)
We have a thickened epoxy preloaded into a dual barrel static mixing syringe that we sell with the Stern Saver. It's the best there is. Send me a PM and I'll be happy to send you one if you want to cover the shipping. This syringe is perfect for repairing holes, because it mixes it as it comes out. No need for mixing it in a cup with a stir stick. Just squirt it right into the holes.
Russ 13 posted 02-19-2012 11:20 PM ET (US)
Basshole, what is a "PM" ??
Thanks, Russ
Basshole posted 02-20-2012 01:12 AM ET (US)
Russ-private message. I just wanted you to contact me so I could send you a glue syringe. I just saw your email, so we're good.
Russ 13 posted 02-20-2012 08:02 AM ET (US)
Thank you
So much for my "lingo" knowledge....

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Author	Topic: Repair Epoxy
Russ 13	posted 02-13-2012 02:35 PM ET (US) I am starting a recondition project on a 15-foot classic. There are several holes that need to be filled on vertical surfaces. I am looking for a thick epoxy that is fast drying, to avoid the filler an repair substance running out of the repair area before it cures. Any suggestions [will be welcome]. Thanks.
rusty hook	posted 02-13-2012 06:11 PM ET (US) I use 3M 5200 for all my hole filling duties, anyone else have any suggestions?
SpongeBob	posted 02-13-2012 08:01 PM ET (US) MarineTex in white. You can tint it if you wish. Jeff
dfmcintyre	posted 02-13-2012 08:08 PM ET (US) You might try mixing a little of one of the West systems additives as a thickening agent to [ASI epoxy]. Try it on a board or piece of cardboard first, to make sure there's no mixing issues. As far as it coming back out of the hole, you can create a little dam out of tape around the bottom of the hole and pour it in. I've had success in using that method to create a solid plug of straight epoxy. Once it kicks off, and is almost solid, I cut off the excess with an cardboard cutting knife on edge. Carefully. Regards - Don
jimh	posted 02-13-2012 08:46 PM ET (US) You can thicken epoxy with a filler. When filling holes, you are not looking for strength, so some filler is not a problem. Cure time can be modified by choosing the hardener and resin combination. Temperature also affects cure time.
Binkster	posted 02-13-2012 08:56 PM ET (US) Don't ever use 5200 as a hole filler. Its a freakin adhesive, not a hole filler. I see so many holes that have 5200 globbed around them it makes me sick. Use MarineTex or marine bondo. On horizontal holes Gorilla glue works great. rich
Owtrayj25	posted 02-14-2012 11:01 AM ET (US) Binkster sez quote: Don't ever use 5200 as a hole filler. Its a freakin adhesive, not a hole filler and then goes on to say quote: On horizontal holes Gorilla glue works great. LOL.
Nevek	posted 02-14-2012 11:44 AM ET (US) I used thickened West System epoxy (407 filler) injected with a squeeze bottle and a cut ballpoint pen tube to get to the bottom of the hole. Fill from bottom up and then cover with visqueen to get flush with surface. Be sure to overdrill the holes and bevel the outside and inside. Think hourglass shaped plug.
ConB	posted 02-14-2012 02:20 PM ET (US) West System, the choice of professionals. Learn the system and you will accept no substitutes. Including these syringes for injecting thickened or unthickened epoxy into holes. http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ ProductDisplay?productId=14957&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151& storeNum=50218&subdeptNum=50219&classNum=50227 Con
sdespop	posted 02-14-2012 03:08 PM ET (US) West system thickened with 205 hardener & 407 filler. Fast curing & easily sandable.
Binkster	posted 02-14-2012 05:15 PM ET (US) You wouldn't be LOLing if you ever used Gorilla glue on horizontal holes. yea, I know its glue, but it works. I won't go into the details here the're are alot of threads about it to fill holes. You can't sand 5200 flush.
Owtrayj25	posted 02-14-2012 05:28 PM ET (US) You're right, I haven't used Gorilla glue to fill holes..."It's a Freakin Adhesive". Gorilla glue is difficult to work with in small holes; when it gets on your hands, get comfortable with the look of the spots cause they will be there a couple days. Acetone doesn't even remove it. It can't be thickened and expands when it cures. Your earlier suggestion of MarineTex is a good one; stick with that or thickened epoxy.
Russ 13	posted 02-15-2012 07:51 AM ET (US) THANK YOU for all the suggestions, I will pass on the 5200, as I use it to seal through hull fittings [and] such. I will try the slightly thickened epoxy, [and] will use the tips [and] link. My plan is to make several strong repairs--"Like it never even happened"--and then finish the interior in a nicely sprayed Desert Tan two-part epoxy paint.--Russ
frauke75	posted 02-15-2012 11:35 AM ET (US) I am about to use WEST SYSTEM® Six-10. It comes in a standard caulk tube and self mixes. I was going to get the little epoxy packets but the kit with the filler was more expensive (kit over $30 and this is like $20). And this way I do not need to worry about any mixing/hardening issues and it is already thick. It comes in white or clear. I was a bit worried about it so I emailed west systems and they replied: “The Six-10 would work to fill the transducer screw holes below the waterline. I would recommend drilling on each side of the hole with a chamfer bit, so when you fill with epoxy you create an epoxy rivet. A straw can be attached to the end of the static mixer with duct tape and the Six-10 with flow through a small hole. Let the epoxy cure for a couple days at room temperature and remove all amine blush with only water, no solvent is needed to remove blush. Sand the cured epoxy with 80 grit before applying gel coat paste.” Just thought I would share. It is a new product and seems perfect for the application. Also would be interested if anyone thought had concerns following this method... before I do it.
Binkster	posted 02-15-2012 01:09 PM ET (US) Six-10 seems like a complicated and expensive way to fill a few screw holes. Again it is an adhesive mainly used for glueing fiberglass parts together. I still would go with MarineTex for hole filling. I have never seen a MarineTex plug pop out of a hole.
L H G	posted 02-15-2012 03:53 PM ET (US) I hate to say it, but I think all of the above advice is wrong and will give sub-standard results! You want to use polyester resin based Evercoat Formula #27, which hardens in 5 minutes or so, and is easy to work with, including sanding. In addition, you can gelcoat right over it! Except for rail base stripped out screw repairs, where I use Marine-Tex since it will be covered by the fitting, I use Evercoat Formula #27 exclusively on my boats, and most think they look pretty good! Check out Jim's Reference Section for Boston Whaler's official hull repair information also. It says to use polyester resin.
Russ 13	posted 02-15-2012 05:48 PM ET (US) Well I plan to start the restoration next week. I was leaning toward epoxy products, due to the final paint finish being a two part epoxy based paint. (I did not want incompatability issues, where I had made repairs) I have used this paint before & it is flexable enough & durable enough to withstand boat use. The last boat painted is still looking great, five years later. So I will try the epoxy & Marine tex, and post my results. Thanks again for all the tips.
frauke75	posted 02-15-2012 06:00 PM ET (US) Binkster: I am sure you know more than me and I so far have only researched and have no practical knowledge. I think MatineTex is also a fine choice (especially because he said he will be painting) I almost was going to use it but found the six-10 and it sounded better for me and my limited skills. I think all are as good as the skills of the one using it. I do not think Six-10 is any more expensive then MatineTex or any other when you add up everything you need to apply it. I just found it online for $14 a tube. The steps they gave me sounded complicated due to my desire to cover it with gel coat patch paste but the rest is how West System normally suggests filling holes. If anything I think it is easier because you don't have to mix anything, worry about proportions and not making too much or too little. Just squirt it in and cap it off and store it. As far as its an adhesive: aren't all epoxies adhesives. MatineTex advertises that it forms strong bonds with etc... (another word for adheres to) it is also a epoxy. This adhesive bonding is why I went with an epoxy over a poly. For anyone who is interested the West System guy told me: “The Six-10 is similar to our 105 Resin and 206 Slow Hardener with 406 Colloidal Silica Filler that is thicken to a non-sag consistency, but has the properties of shear thinning so works well to fill thin voids.” So it is kinda like what everyone who suggested epoxy and fillers said... but in a caulk gun! ...and even I know how to use one of those. Only down side I see is that it uses a slow hardener (but it is winter and I got time)
Powergroove803	posted 02-15-2012 10:10 PM ET (US) Formula 27 from West Marine is my fave and its easy, quick, dries white, or can be tinted. Its a marine Bondo that will curer very hard without cracking
Owtrayj25	posted 02-16-2012 08:43 AM ET (US) Advising thickened epoxy as a repair base for a sprayed paint finish (or gelcoat for that matter) is not wrong as some have suggested. In fact, epoxy is likely the preferred base for a paint based finish coat which is contemplated here. As for the use of gelcoat over epoxy, suggesting this is wrong is old school, out of date thinking. Gelcoat over epoxy is an accepted method in use at many high end boat yards. Your only risk with gelcoat over epoxy is if you do not follow instructions very well. Mixing epoxy, such as West Systems epoxy, in correct quantities and allowing for proper cure creates a good base for gelcoat application. If the epoxy is not mixed as directed, you may experience adhesion problems with whatever you choose as a finish. Once the epoxy has cured, a simple wash of the area with water (no soap, no solvents) to remove any amine blush (it's water soluble) and you are ready to prep for gelcoat. I have made a number of repairs using West Syetems on very tough areas like outside corners of my boat transom, and the epoxy/gel has performed admirably for many years. The structural characteristics of epoxy were especially beneficial in dealing with an exposed, outside corner application. Also, epoxy has structural characteristics, which most polyester resins do not, so it is an inherently stronger material.
sdespop	posted 02-16-2012 03:23 PM ET (US) I think that the bottom line of this thread is that everybody has their own preferred material and method of filling holes or making other repairs. Some swear by epoxy, some Marine Tex, etc. There is no one way to go about making repairs si go with what you feel is right for you.
L H G	posted 02-16-2012 04:18 PM ET (US) Had the original poster indicated the boat was going to be Awlgripped and not gelcoat repaired, I would have not bothered with my post. I have had bad luck using gelcoat over Marine-Tex epoxy. Didn't work for me. It is too hard in comparison to the boat's polyester resin gelcoat to sand and fair properly also. A year later the gelcoat popped and peeled off. Epoxy is not worth the risk for the amount of work that gelcoat repairs require. Both Spectrun and Mini-Craft gelcoat manufacturers say not to use their product over epoxy.
sdespop	posted 02-16-2012 06:51 PM ET (US) the problem with gel over epoxy is a failure to remove the amine blush from the surface of the epoxy prior to gel application. This also applies to putting epoxy over a fully cured layer of epoxy or any other coating such as varnish. If amine blush is left on the epoxy surface, NOTHING will bond to it. It is easily removed with warm water & a scotchbrite pad. West System stresses this in their literature. It all boils down to proper mixing, proper application, & proper preparation prior to topcoating. There are even amine free epoxies available now although I haven't had any experience with them. I swear by West System & use it for pretty much all structural & cosmetic repairs. Haven't had any issues in the 5 years or so that I've used it.
Basshole	posted 02-16-2012 10:16 PM ET (US) We have a thickened epoxy preloaded into a dual barrel static mixing syringe that we sell with the Stern Saver. It's the best there is. Send me a PM and I'll be happy to send you one if you want to cover the shipping. This syringe is perfect for repairing holes, because it mixes it as it comes out. No need for mixing it in a cup with a stir stick. Just squirt it right into the holes.
Russ 13	posted 02-19-2012 11:20 PM ET (US) Basshole, what is a "PM" ?? Thanks, Russ
Basshole	posted 02-20-2012 01:12 AM ET (US) Russ-private message. I just wanted you to contact me so I could send you a glue syringe. I just saw your email, so we're good.
Russ 13	posted 02-20-2012 08:02 AM ET (US) Thank you So much for my "lingo" knowledge....