Mounting a new helm on an original Nauset, Sakonnet or Eastport console.

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Author Topic:   Mounting a new helm on an original Nauset, Sakonnet or Eastport console.

frauke75 posted 03-21-2012 02:46 PM ET (US)
Background:
I need to replace the cable due it’s insolation falling off. The system is perfectly functioning and it is the original rotary steering system. The helm is white with a blue Teleflex logo. The cable is light blue and I found “T 16 FT Q” stamped on it. My father has owned the boat from new and never replaced the system. I was going to just replace the cable but then thought that even though the helm is giving me no issues I should replace it due to age and safety concerns.
I called Teleflex and they said that it was a Big-T helm due to age and cable if I supplied. He gave me the cable number I would need.
I then asked about other helm systems that could drop in. He said that only a Big-T would fit with the “ 4 mounting screws around the steering wheel stem”. I toled him that my bezel is stainless and only has 3 holes that screws through the bezel and wood of the console then into the flange of the helm. He said that the Big-T has always had 4 holes and that if mine has 3 then it must have been a custom that they did for BW and that he would not have any information on it.
The holes on my console are:
one 1 1/3" in the middle
with three, 3/8" ones equilateral triangled around it.
I am now questioning if it is a Big-T and if I end up just replacing the cable I was going to buy, will work if it is not?
If I was to replace the helm too... I was thinking about a NFB system and while I am sure I can just punt and fab up something after I get it. I just do not want to cut up the original console too much and also worry about other possible clearance issues under the top of the console.
Has anyone here ever replaced their helm on the original console and did they run into this?
frauke75 posted 03-27-2012 02:10 PM ET (US)
O well... I thought sombody might have replaced the sterring system in a Nauset, Sakonnet or Eastport console before.
I guess if I replace it I will need to fab my own setback adaptor plate behind the dash to make it work with the original stainless bezel. I dont think I would be happy with the big black plastic hocky puck they use today and I think it would just stick out too far.
I will post my trials and errors if and when I ever get to it. This season, I think I will just get the cable.
Tohsgib posted 03-27-2012 02:43 PM ET (US)
I would leave the helm alone if in good shape. Buy a new Big-T cable or take yours to a shop and have it matched up.
GRAND NUSSIE posted 03-28-2012 07:34 PM ET (US)
I replaced the cable and original close clearance helm on my 72/73 Sakonnet last year after the cable "froze up". I half-heartedly looked for a replacement cable on the net but, forgive my leaky memory, I believe the bad cable was from American Chain and Cable which was bought out by Teleflex. Not knowing which cable to order and the condition of the 39 year old helm, I replaced the entire system requiring quite a little hacking on the console. Standing behind the wheel with my oversized stomach is not good but, in my old age, I usually sit or perch on the seat back. If I remember correctly, the original stainless bezel did not cover the hole required to mount the new helm or possibly it was the four bolts? With some careful hacking you might be able to mount the new helm from behind but check the diameter of the bezed with the diameter of the bolt circle.
You might want to contact Sue at Twin Cities Marine. My understanding is she knows all. I have the address buried in my file cabinet if you can't find it elsewhere on CW or if no other members chime in.
Dick
frauke75 posted 03-28-2012 10:08 PM ET (US)
“original close clearance helm”... ? I wonder if whaler did have Teleflex make a unique helm.
Were the helms included with the boats or were they installed at the dealer with the motor etc.?
If my original helm is a Big-T, the difference I see, and this would be the 'close clearance” thing, is that the fluted mounting piece that comes out of the rotary box covering the steering column. In the pictures of the Big-T I have found, it looks long and has 4 mounting holes while mine is short like 3-4” and only has 3 mounting holes. If BW did have a “close clearance” version made, and I would have to look because I do not know if it is removable... can't see it installed, maybe it is bolted on and could be removed and reinstalled on a new helm.
Grand Nussie
Thanks for the suggestion about Sue she is good and actually not too far away.
… also watch out sitting on the back rest... I remember my father got a ticket for doing that when I was a kid.
Thanks
Tom W Clark posted 03-28-2012 10:25 PM ET (US)
What model of Whaler do you own? Nauset, Sakonnet or Eastport?
What year is your Whaler?
There is nothing wrong withe the Big-T helm; it is an excellent piece of hardware and replacement parts and steering cable are still available for it.
frauke75 posted 03-29-2012 12:58 AM ET (US)
Tom, it is a 1968 Nauset. I have no problem with the Big T other than a new one just would not drop in to my existing console cutout. And I think the neck is a lot longer.
My motor is only a 65 hp and all the dealers I talked to, trying to find a helm to look at them, don't think I need a Big T.
I only think it is a Big T because that is what the guy at Teleflex said based on my description of the cable and the age of the boat. But... I kinda felt I was getting the quick answer though. Maybe in 1968 it was the only model they made, then I can understand why he was so sure and answered so quick.
But when I described the hole pattern he said it may have been a custom for BW.
I just then don't know if it is a custom Big T or a whole custom helm.

Thanks
Bensjoy posted 03-29-2012 05:32 PM ET (US)
Contact Teleflex or Uflex regarding using one their steering packages which includes the cable, helm, bezel and possibly even a wheel for slightly more cost then a replacement cable only. I used a Telelex system when I replaced the original Steermaster helm and cable on my 1968 Sakonnet. I used the Teleflex Safe T helm.
Tom W Clark posted 03-29-2012 05:55 PM ET (US)
Well, I'm not sure about the three hole vs. four hole difference, but if it is a Big-T, you've got yourself the nicest mechanical helm made. It is more than a Sakonnet needs, but hell, that's the way Whaler did it back then; top-of-the-line, overbuilt hardware.
I'd just replace the cable. You would want one of the standard Teleflex SSC61 series meachanical steering cables and if the 16 foot is what you need then the part number is SSC6116. That's going to be a lot less money than even the cheapest whole system and you'll have a better helm in the end.
If, on the other hand, the helm is buggered up and you do not want to rebuild it, then you'll just have to buy a new system, but it seems a shame given you have the original bezel and all.
It is also possible you have a Teleflex helm manufactured BEFORE 1968, in which case the new cables are not compatible.
A few photos of what you have would clear this all up, especially a photo of the cable end of the original.
frauke75 posted 03-29-2012 11:44 PM ET (US)
Well I talked to Sue at Twin Cities. They are my closest BW dealer anyway. We had a nice talk and she is great but did not have the answer but gave me some good history though. She is going to email me some old lit with some pictures. I also called BW and “the one who would know this “(can't remember his name) called me back and said that he did not know either but that he did not think that BW ever had a custom helm made.
Tom, My helm works just fine but in reading around it seems that people have said it is a safety thing and the price for the whole thing seems like a better deal. Don't need to replace it and now am not going to if I can avoid it.
The SSC6116 cable is what the guy from Teleflex said too and that it comes with an adapter that I would need to use. Does this not cover the pre-1968 thing?
I don't know if the helm can be rebuilt because when I talked to the Teleflex guy (Jim I think) he said, when I asked if there as any thing that goes bad on these old helms and what to look for, he said that the can ware out and that there are no parts, just replacement. Please let me know if that is incorrect, because rebuilding if needed sounds like a better option to me. I too like the original bezel and wheel. Not to mention the new helms seem to stick out a lot more than mine, the base of my wheel is only an inch off the wood. The wheel is already in a precarious position when standing and driving if you know what I mean.
I will get some pictures.
Thanks you could have just saved me some money.
GRAND NUSSIE posted 03-30-2012 12:33 AM ET (US)
I think Tom is on the right track (as usual). My thinking (which is not always on the right track) is that the original system was a ACCO Steermaster amd I'm wondering if the cable was replaced somewhere along the line. Cables don't usually last 40 years. A Teleflex site I was just on indicated that Big T components would fit your original helm. You will not like the added clearance from the dash to the wheel if you stand a lot. I don't. Anymore.
Incidently, I have a Sakonnet with the original RPS so the "seatback" is actually used as a leaning post.
Good luck...Dick
Tom W Clark posted 03-30-2012 09:19 AM ET (US)
The helm is not an ACCO Steermaster because it says Teleflex right on it. See the first post.
A new Big-T will NOT stick out because the two-patrt bezel would not be used; the helm is back-set inside the console behind the flat bezel already there. But this is frauke75's frustration; that bezel has three holes, the Big-T needs four.
Teleflex says the SSC61 series cables will replace most Teleflex cables manufactured since 1968. Teleflex also states that the Big-T has been in production since 1963. I am merely speculating about the possibility of frauke75's Big-T helm being one of these earlier models and perhaps it had a three bolt design.
I've rebuilt a Big-T before. The replacement parts are plastic flange bushings that can get old and brittle. You also get a good chance to clean and re-grease everything as well as inspect the parts for wear. It is actually a very simple unit; there are not that many parts inside.
Tom W Clark posted 03-30-2012 10:47 AM ET (US)
...and *if* for whatever reason, you need to replace the helm, the Teleflex Safe-T steering kit would to closet thing to what you have now, the Big-T notwithstanding.
The Safe-T is more than enough for a Nauset with a 65 and has 3 turns lock-to-lock juts like the Big-T it is modeled on.
It also uses a three bolt mounting pattern so it is possible it might work if the spread is the same as your bezel. You would discard the supplied bezel.
It is inexpensive too. Here is one entire kit with a 16' cable:
http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/item/ 359027_TELEFLEX_Marine_TELE_CONN_QUIK_PK_16FT.aspx
Tom W Clark posted 03-30-2012 10:49 AM ET (US)
Even cheaper:
http://www.boatersland.com/tel-ss13716.html
frauke75 posted 03-30-2012 12:01 PM ET (US)
The 3 bolt pattern on the Safe-T helm is much tighter (closer to the steering column) than mine and also it has smaller diameter mounting threds.
http://teleflexmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/MS1usa-Safe-T-QC.pdf
Mine looks more like the Big-T with a fluted cast mounting flange (gets wider)
http://www.teleflexmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MS1usa-Big-T.pdf
But mine has 3 holes not 4 but I am sure if the flange is big enough I could just drill and tap the 3 I need. The only thing would then be some loss in space under the console as the flange stem on the new Big-T seems a lot longer than mine, and would therefor change the space under there and don't know if this would cause some other clearance issues.
I like the idea that I can just replace the cable as I have had no issues with it. I will get the pictures up to be sure. I will also open up the helm to see if there is anything worn out. Any particular kind of grease I should use when reassembling?
frauke75 posted 03-30-2012 03:42 PM ET (US)
Pictures:
http://s996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/1417epryor/
or
<div style="width:480px;text-align:right;"><embed width="480" height="360" src="http://static.pbsrc.com/flash/rss_slideshow.swf" flashvars="rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed996.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf86%2F1417epryor%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" /><a href="http://photobucket.com/redirect/album?showShareLB=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif" style="border:none;" /></a><a href="http://s996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/1417epryor/" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_viewall.gif" style="border:none;" /></a></div>
Wasent sure how to do the above correctly
Sorry for the quality, its from my cell.
Just so it is clear - the helm is now in a qickly built console I made so I can use the boat until I finish fixing up the original.
Jeff posted 03-30-2012 03:44 PM ET (US)
http://s996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/1417epryor/?start=all
frauke75 posted 03-30-2012 04:25 PM ET (US)
Thanks... I need to try it finly found the how to:
http://s996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/1417epryor/
Tom W Clark posted 03-31-2012 09:36 AM ET (US)
Well, we can't see much in those photos except that the helm sure looks like a Teleflex and the cable appears to be the same type as the contemporary ones. I'd just order a new cable and go boating.
frauke75 posted 03-31-2012 10:21 AM ET (US)
Thanks Tom, that is the hope.
I will order a SSC6116 cable then, that is if the picturs were clear enough to know that it is not the pre-1968 one. If they are not, is there anything I can check. What was the deference?
Thanks
Tom W Clark posted 03-31-2012 10:32 AM ET (US)
I do not know. You would have to contact Teleflex and talk with an older experienced hand there.
frauke75 posted 03-31-2012 03:29 PM ET (US)
I went ahead and bought the cable. There was a sale + coupon deal that was ending today. I'll see how it goes.
If/when I get them helm out I will document what I have in hopes that it might help the next guy.
Thanks for all the help everyone!

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Author	Topic: Mounting a new helm on an original Nauset, Sakonnet or Eastport console.
frauke75	posted 03-21-2012 02:46 PM ET (US) Background: I need to replace the cable due it’s insolation falling off. The system is perfectly functioning and it is the original rotary steering system. The helm is white with a blue Teleflex logo. The cable is light blue and I found “T 16 FT Q” stamped on it. My father has owned the boat from new and never replaced the system. I was going to just replace the cable but then thought that even though the helm is giving me no issues I should replace it due to age and safety concerns. I called Teleflex and they said that it was a Big-T helm due to age and cable if I supplied. He gave me the cable number I would need. I then asked about other helm systems that could drop in. He said that only a Big-T would fit with the “ 4 mounting screws around the steering wheel stem”. I toled him that my bezel is stainless and only has 3 holes that screws through the bezel and wood of the console then into the flange of the helm. He said that the Big-T has always had 4 holes and that if mine has 3 then it must have been a custom that they did for BW and that he would not have any information on it. The holes on my console are: one 1 1/3" in the middle with three, 3/8" ones equilateral triangled around it. I am now questioning if it is a Big-T and if I end up just replacing the cable I was going to buy, will work if it is not? If I was to replace the helm too... I was thinking about a NFB system and while I am sure I can just punt and fab up something after I get it. I just do not want to cut up the original console too much and also worry about other possible clearance issues under the top of the console. Has anyone here ever replaced their helm on the original console and did they run into this?
frauke75	posted 03-27-2012 02:10 PM ET (US) O well... I thought sombody might have replaced the sterring system in a Nauset, Sakonnet or Eastport console before. I guess if I replace it I will need to fab my own setback adaptor plate behind the dash to make it work with the original stainless bezel. I dont think I would be happy with the big black plastic hocky puck they use today and I think it would just stick out too far. I will post my trials and errors if and when I ever get to it. This season, I think I will just get the cable.
Tohsgib	posted 03-27-2012 02:43 PM ET (US) I would leave the helm alone if in good shape. Buy a new Big-T cable or take yours to a shop and have it matched up.
GRAND NUSSIE	posted 03-28-2012 07:34 PM ET (US) I replaced the cable and original close clearance helm on my 72/73 Sakonnet last year after the cable "froze up". I half-heartedly looked for a replacement cable on the net but, forgive my leaky memory, I believe the bad cable was from American Chain and Cable which was bought out by Teleflex. Not knowing which cable to order and the condition of the 39 year old helm, I replaced the entire system requiring quite a little hacking on the console. Standing behind the wheel with my oversized stomach is not good but, in my old age, I usually sit or perch on the seat back. If I remember correctly, the original stainless bezel did not cover the hole required to mount the new helm or possibly it was the four bolts? With some careful hacking you might be able to mount the new helm from behind but check the diameter of the bezed with the diameter of the bolt circle. You might want to contact Sue at Twin Cities Marine. My understanding is she knows all. I have the address buried in my file cabinet if you can't find it elsewhere on CW or if no other members chime in. Dick
frauke75	posted 03-28-2012 10:08 PM ET (US) “original close clearance helm”... ? I wonder if whaler did have Teleflex make a unique helm. Were the helms included with the boats or were they installed at the dealer with the motor etc.? If my original helm is a Big-T, the difference I see, and this would be the 'close clearance” thing, is that the fluted mounting piece that comes out of the rotary box covering the steering column. In the pictures of the Big-T I have found, it looks long and has 4 mounting holes while mine is short like 3-4” and only has 3 mounting holes. If BW did have a “close clearance” version made, and I would have to look because I do not know if it is removable... can't see it installed, maybe it is bolted on and could be removed and reinstalled on a new helm. Grand Nussie Thanks for the suggestion about Sue she is good and actually not too far away. … also watch out sitting on the back rest... I remember my father got a ticket for doing that when I was a kid. Thanks
Tom W Clark	posted 03-28-2012 10:25 PM ET (US) What model of Whaler do you own? Nauset, Sakonnet or Eastport? What year is your Whaler? There is nothing wrong withe the Big-T helm; it is an excellent piece of hardware and replacement parts and steering cable are still available for it.
frauke75	posted 03-29-2012 12:58 AM ET (US) Tom, it is a 1968 Nauset. I have no problem with the Big T other than a new one just would not drop in to my existing console cutout. And I think the neck is a lot longer. My motor is only a 65 hp and all the dealers I talked to, trying to find a helm to look at them, don't think I need a Big T. I only think it is a Big T because that is what the guy at Teleflex said based on my description of the cable and the age of the boat. But... I kinda felt I was getting the quick answer though. Maybe in 1968 it was the only model they made, then I can understand why he was so sure and answered so quick. But when I described the hole pattern he said it may have been a custom for BW. I just then don't know if it is a custom Big T or a whole custom helm. Thanks
Bensjoy	posted 03-29-2012 05:32 PM ET (US) Contact Teleflex or Uflex regarding using one their steering packages which includes the cable, helm, bezel and possibly even a wheel for slightly more cost then a replacement cable only. I used a Telelex system when I replaced the original Steermaster helm and cable on my 1968 Sakonnet. I used the Teleflex Safe T helm.
Tom W Clark	posted 03-29-2012 05:55 PM ET (US) Well, I'm not sure about the three hole vs. four hole difference, but if it is a Big-T, you've got yourself the nicest mechanical helm made. It is more than a Sakonnet needs, but hell, that's the way Whaler did it back then; top-of-the-line, overbuilt hardware. I'd just replace the cable. You would want one of the standard Teleflex SSC61 series meachanical steering cables and if the 16 foot is what you need then the part number is SSC6116. That's going to be a lot less money than even the cheapest whole system and you'll have a better helm in the end. If, on the other hand, the helm is buggered up and you do not want to rebuild it, then you'll just have to buy a new system, but it seems a shame given you have the original bezel and all. It is also possible you have a Teleflex helm manufactured BEFORE 1968, in which case the new cables are not compatible. A few photos of what you have would clear this all up, especially a photo of the cable end of the original.
frauke75	posted 03-29-2012 11:44 PM ET (US) Well I talked to Sue at Twin Cities. They are my closest BW dealer anyway. We had a nice talk and she is great but did not have the answer but gave me some good history though. She is going to email me some old lit with some pictures. I also called BW and “the one who would know this “(can't remember his name) called me back and said that he did not know either but that he did not think that BW ever had a custom helm made. Tom, My helm works just fine but in reading around it seems that people have said it is a safety thing and the price for the whole thing seems like a better deal. Don't need to replace it and now am not going to if I can avoid it. The SSC6116 cable is what the guy from Teleflex said too and that it comes with an adapter that I would need to use. Does this not cover the pre-1968 thing? I don't know if the helm can be rebuilt because when I talked to the Teleflex guy (Jim I think) he said, when I asked if there as any thing that goes bad on these old helms and what to look for, he said that the can ware out and that there are no parts, just replacement. Please let me know if that is incorrect, because rebuilding if needed sounds like a better option to me. I too like the original bezel and wheel. Not to mention the new helms seem to stick out a lot more than mine, the base of my wheel is only an inch off the wood. The wheel is already in a precarious position when standing and driving if you know what I mean. I will get some pictures. Thanks you could have just saved me some money.
GRAND NUSSIE	posted 03-30-2012 12:33 AM ET (US) I think Tom is on the right track (as usual). My thinking (which is not always on the right track) is that the original system was a ACCO Steermaster amd I'm wondering if the cable was replaced somewhere along the line. Cables don't usually last 40 years. A Teleflex site I was just on indicated that Big T components would fit your original helm. You will not like the added clearance from the dash to the wheel if you stand a lot. I don't. Anymore. Incidently, I have a Sakonnet with the original RPS so the "seatback" is actually used as a leaning post. Good luck...Dick
Tom W Clark	posted 03-30-2012 09:19 AM ET (US) The helm is not an ACCO Steermaster because it says Teleflex right on it. See the first post. A new Big-T will NOT stick out because the two-patrt bezel would not be used; the helm is back-set inside the console behind the flat bezel already there. But this is frauke75's frustration; that bezel has three holes, the Big-T needs four. Teleflex says the SSC61 series cables will replace most Teleflex cables manufactured since 1968. Teleflex also states that the Big-T has been in production since 1963. I am merely speculating about the possibility of frauke75's Big-T helm being one of these earlier models and perhaps it had a three bolt design. I've rebuilt a Big-T before. The replacement parts are plastic flange bushings that can get old and brittle. You also get a good chance to clean and re-grease everything as well as inspect the parts for wear. It is actually a very simple unit; there are not that many parts inside.
Tom W Clark	posted 03-30-2012 10:47 AM ET (US) ...and if for whatever reason, you need to replace the helm, the Teleflex Safe-T steering kit would to closet thing to what you have now, the Big-T notwithstanding. The Safe-T is more than enough for a Nauset with a 65 and has 3 turns lock-to-lock juts like the Big-T it is modeled on. It also uses a three bolt mounting pattern so it is possible it might work if the spread is the same as your bezel. You would discard the supplied bezel. It is inexpensive too. Here is one entire kit with a 16' cable: http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/item/ 359027_TELEFLEX_Marine_TELE_CONN_QUIK_PK_16FT.aspx
Tom W Clark	posted 03-30-2012 10:49 AM ET (US) Even cheaper: http://www.boatersland.com/tel-ss13716.html
frauke75	posted 03-30-2012 12:01 PM ET (US) The 3 bolt pattern on the Safe-T helm is much tighter (closer to the steering column) than mine and also it has smaller diameter mounting threds. http://teleflexmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/MS1usa-Safe-T-QC.pdf Mine looks more like the Big-T with a fluted cast mounting flange (gets wider) http://www.teleflexmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MS1usa-Big-T.pdf But mine has 3 holes not 4 but I am sure if the flange is big enough I could just drill and tap the 3 I need. The only thing would then be some loss in space under the console as the flange stem on the new Big-T seems a lot longer than mine, and would therefor change the space under there and don't know if this would cause some other clearance issues. I like the idea that I can just replace the cable as I have had no issues with it. I will get the pictures up to be sure. I will also open up the helm to see if there is anything worn out. Any particular kind of grease I should use when reassembling?
frauke75	posted 03-30-2012 03:42 PM ET (US) Pictures: http://s996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/1417epryor/ or <div style="width:480px;text-align:right;"><embed width="480" height="360" src="http://static.pbsrc.com/flash/rss_slideshow.swf" flashvars="rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed996.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf86%2F1417epryor%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" /><a href="http://photobucket.com/redirect/album?showShareLB=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif" style="border:none;" /></a><a href="http://s996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/1417epryor/" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_viewall.gif" style="border:none;" /></a></div> Wasent sure how to do the above correctly Sorry for the quality, its from my cell. Just so it is clear - the helm is now in a qickly built console I made so I can use the boat until I finish fixing up the original.
Jeff	posted 03-30-2012 03:44 PM ET (US) http://s996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/1417epryor/?start=all
frauke75	posted 03-30-2012 04:25 PM ET (US) Thanks... I need to try it finly found the how to: http://s996.photobucket.com/albums/af86/1417epryor/
Tom W Clark	posted 03-31-2012 09:36 AM ET (US) Well, we can't see much in those photos except that the helm sure looks like a Teleflex and the cable appears to be the same type as the contemporary ones. I'd just order a new cable and go boating.
frauke75	posted 03-31-2012 10:21 AM ET (US) Thanks Tom, that is the hope. I will order a SSC6116 cable then, that is if the picturs were clear enough to know that it is not the pre-1968 one. If they are not, is there anything I can check. What was the deference? Thanks
Tom W Clark	posted 03-31-2012 10:32 AM ET (US) I do not know. You would have to contact Teleflex and talk with an older experienced hand there.
frauke75	posted 03-31-2012 03:29 PM ET (US) I went ahead and bought the cable. There was a sale + coupon deal that was ending today. I'll see how it goes. If/when I get them helm out I will document what I have in hopes that it might help the next guy. Thanks for all the help everyone!