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Author Topic:   Engine Durability

Ventura posted 11-30-2013 04:14 PM ET (US)
What is considered a lot of hours for an outboard to have accumulated?
Jeff posted 11-30-2013 05:34 PM ET (US)
We have 1900+ on our 1992 Yamaha's and I know others with over 3000 on theirs with the original powerheads. I see Verados, Honda and Yamaha Four Stokes on the GSA auction site with 10,000 - 15,000+ of Government use. So the term of "A lot" can have a very broad definition depending on who you ask.
jimh posted 11-30-2013 05:49 PM ET (US)
I think you will find a wide range of opinion on this. A few years ago I mentioned an outboard with about 1,700-hours of use. I was told that this sort of durability was completely unremarkable and not worth mentioning. More recently, a discussion was had about an engine with 6,800-hours of use, and this was considered to be worthy of remarking. Applying a linear scale between 1,7000-hours and 6,800-hours, and using a comparative for the degree of remarkable, I would suggest the following relationship:
1,700-hours = Not remarkable at all
4,250-hours = halfway between remarkable and not remarkable, thus "normal"
6,800-hours = remarkable
Thus recently expressed opinion suggests that 4,250-hours is the threshold that must be exceeded to be "a lot" of hours. By the way, apparently the speed at which the engine operates makes no difference, and you can run your engine continuously at maximum power without affecting its life span. So according to opinion expressed here recently, your outboard should run for 4,250-hours at full throttle, as a normal outcome, and that is just only approaching the threshold of being remarkable.
To be clear, I agree with none of that. I think it is mainly nonsense. The notion of a certain amount of running time being considered "a lot" of hour of running time depends completely on the perspective of the individual. Based on my pattern of use, my annual running time for my outboard is under 100-hours. On that basis I consider 1,000-hours to be ten years of use, and I would consider that to be "a lot of hours." And I would expect that during those 1,000-hours the engine would be run at maximum throttle for only 6-hours total time. If you ran the engine at full throttle all the time its durability would be significantly lowered.
As a corollary question: how to you determine the operating hours and at what speed the engine has been run?
seahorse posted 12-01-2013 12:20 AM ET (US)

The dealer on Catalina Island reports that Harbor Patrol boats have over 6000 hours on their E-TEC outboards.
jimh posted 12-01-2013 10:39 AM ET (US)
For an E-TEC engine to have 6,000-hours represents, for me, "a lot of hours," and I consider that to be remarkable. According to my personal criterion, 6,000-hours exceeds my threshold for "a lot of hours" by a factor of six. That is a very significant margin above threshold. I consider that report to be remarkable.
Regarding the durability of an engine, or really any device, I believe that there is a connection between the number of people that use the device and its durability. If only one person uses a device, the device will have a certain durability. Let us call the durability of a device used by one person as D1.
If more than one person use a device, we can say that the durability of the device will decrease according to
Durability = D1/n, where n is the number of people using the device
This means that if you are the only person using a device, an outboard motor for example, you can expect its durability to be D1. If that same device is shared among ten other users, you can expect its total durability to decrease by D1/10. There is also some thinking that the relationship might be more like
Durability = D1/n^2.08
I base this estimate on my own personal observations regarding the use of test probes. If in a laboratory there are ten technicians sharing one set of test probes, the test probes have a durabililty of about one month. However, if you buy each technician their own set of test probes, the durability of the test probes increases to about ten years.
andrey320 posted 12-04-2013 04:23 PM ET (US)
Seahorse, is that in Avalon? Harbor Patrol in Two Harbors (on Catalina) use Hondas. I've talked with one of the gentleman working there and he said they run the engines til they "disintegrate". According to him, that happens between 4 and 8 thousand hours.
Keeper posted 12-04-2013 05:23 PM ET (US)
What seems significant, to me, is that if these motors (Honda or E-tec) aren't flushed with freshwater daily and are sitting in the water on a mooring can in Avalon. That says a lot for their resistance to corrosion.
I wonder how many years those 6000 hours represent?
jcdawg83 posted 12-06-2013 08:37 AM ET (US)
A marine mechanic told me several years ago that most people will sell a boat or get tired of a motor before it comes close to wearing out. Using a boat 100 hours a year, like Jim indicated, is about 3 times the average use. The average boater uses their boat (running time) about 30 hours a year according to the mechanic. Of those 30 hours, maybe 2 or 3 are at WOT.
He also told me one of the worst things for an outboard engine is non use. This might explain why commercial and patrol boat outboard engines last so long. Those engines are run almost every day, usually continuously for 5-8 hours. The game warden on our local lake told me they put about 1000 hours a year on their engines (all E-tecs) and usually run them for about 5 years before changing boats and engines. He said they have very few problems with the engines.
A man I know bought a 21' center console boat with a 200 Yamaha from a guide at Hilton Head. The boat and engine were a little over 2 years old and the engine had 2000 hours on it. My friend bought the rig for a great price and expected to buy an engine within a short time due to the "huge" number of hours. 5 years later, the engine has 2300 hours and still starts if you look at the key hard and runs like a new engine from idle to full throttle.
Outboards, like automobiles, last a lot longer than people think they will.
Don SSDD posted 12-06-2013 03:31 PM ET (US)
My experience with any engine is, more use is good for it, as long as it is not abuse. I would call running wide open all the time abuse, or anything above 80-85% throttle all the time. With carb'ed autos, no computers, they will gum up quickly if not run at say 60MPH for an hour on a monthly basis. They need to get hot and stay hot to keep the valves etc cleaned out. With ethanol in gas, you add another layer of risk from low use with the gas going bad more quickly.
I have a couple of old V8's plus our volunteer fire dept has a carbed 454 that doesn't see a lot of use.
Don
EJO posted 12-06-2013 04:58 PM ET (US)
Nobody mentions the most important factor of all which is Maintenance. jimh mentions the single user and with excellent maintenance a modern combustion engine can last a lot longer than we think.
We operate our engines in a clean environment as to combustion air etc. Not dust or contaminate particles enter the engine compared to automotive.
If you flush (when using in salt water) and keep a recommended maintenance schedule and use full synthetic oils it will last.
It used to be that 1,000 boat hours was equivalent to 100,000 miles in cars I feel that is halved or less now i.e. 1000hrs OB is about 50K miles auto with that assumption I say 4,000 OB hrs becomes a higher or maybe to be rebuild OB engine therefore remarkable.
Even though I have car(s) engines with near perfect original compression ratio's far beyond 200K miles only due to proper run-in and maintenance.
jimh posted 12-07-2013 04:38 AM ET (US)
Let us say a car averages 25-MPH, which I think is a reasonable speed average if the car does a majority of its driving on an expressway. If the engine runs to 100,000-miles, a reasonable expectation with today's engines, that will be 4,000-hours of operation. If modern synthetic oil is used as a lubricant, it is reasonable to go 5,000-miles between oil changes, or about 200-hours of operating time between oil changes. A modern outboard engine ought to be able to match those operating times.
seahorse posted 01-11-2014 10:02 AM ET (US)
The Catalina harbor boats that had over 6000 on them were just repowered with new E-TEC 150hp outboards. One engine had a documented 6800 hours on it with original starter and injectors according to the dealer, Avalon Boat Shop
Tom W Clark posted 01-11-2014 10:54 AM ET (US)
A motor that is used all day, every day with thousands of hours on it is not remarkable.
You find me a motor that is used 100 hours a season, and has thousands of hours on it, and is still running. THAT would be remarkable.
macfam posted 01-11-2014 10:59 AM ET (US)
My wife's 2014 Prius V (wagon) uses 0W-20 synthetic oil. Recommendation is for oil and filter changes every 10,000 miles!
At jimh's stated rate of averaging 30 mph, that's every 333.3 hours.
On the Priuschat Forum, there are many older Priuses' with 200-300K miles with no engine problems and running strong.
However, our 315 Yanmar diesel, using (dyno)15W-40, recommended oil and filter changes are every 125 hours. After 125 hours.........yuck! Thick, black goop. 315 Yanmar's in commercial use have a pretty good track record at > 10,000 hours. They actually do a lot better if run regularly and run pretty hard.......if maintained properly.
Today's modern 4-strokes, DFI 2-strokes, hybrids and diesels are remarkable! Nearly all brands are super dependable. If properly maintained, they really l-a-s-t.
Can't wait for the hydrogen fuel cell future.........
jimh posted 01-12-2014 01:50 PM ET (US)
[This thread was revived and its topic changed. The new topic has been moved to its own thread.]

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Author	Topic: Engine Durability
Ventura	posted 11-30-2013 04:14 PM ET (US) What is considered a lot of hours for an outboard to have accumulated?
Jeff	posted 11-30-2013 05:34 PM ET (US) We have 1900+ on our 1992 Yamaha's and I know others with over 3000 on theirs with the original powerheads. I see Verados, Honda and Yamaha Four Stokes on the GSA auction site with 10,000 - 15,000+ of Government use. So the term of "A lot" can have a very broad definition depending on who you ask.
jimh	posted 11-30-2013 05:49 PM ET (US) I think you will find a wide range of opinion on this. A few years ago I mentioned an outboard with about 1,700-hours of use. I was told that this sort of durability was completely unremarkable and not worth mentioning. More recently, a discussion was had about an engine with 6,800-hours of use, and this was considered to be worthy of remarking. Applying a linear scale between 1,7000-hours and 6,800-hours, and using a comparative for the degree of remarkable, I would suggest the following relationship: 1,700-hours = Not remarkable at all 4,250-hours = halfway between remarkable and not remarkable, thus "normal" 6,800-hours = remarkable Thus recently expressed opinion suggests that 4,250-hours is the threshold that must be exceeded to be "a lot" of hours. By the way, apparently the speed at which the engine operates makes no difference, and you can run your engine continuously at maximum power without affecting its life span. So according to opinion expressed here recently, your outboard should run for 4,250-hours at full throttle, as a normal outcome, and that is just only approaching the threshold of being remarkable. To be clear, I agree with none of that. I think it is mainly nonsense. The notion of a certain amount of running time being considered "a lot" of hour of running time depends completely on the perspective of the individual. Based on my pattern of use, my annual running time for my outboard is under 100-hours. On that basis I consider 1,000-hours to be ten years of use, and I would consider that to be "a lot of hours." And I would expect that during those 1,000-hours the engine would be run at maximum throttle for only 6-hours total time. If you ran the engine at full throttle all the time its durability would be significantly lowered. As a corollary question: how to you determine the operating hours and at what speed the engine has been run?
seahorse	posted 12-01-2013 12:20 AM ET (US) The dealer on Catalina Island reports that Harbor Patrol boats have over 6000 hours on their E-TEC outboards.
jimh	posted 12-01-2013 10:39 AM ET (US) For an E-TEC engine to have 6,000-hours represents, for me, "a lot of hours," and I consider that to be remarkable. According to my personal criterion, 6,000-hours exceeds my threshold for "a lot of hours" by a factor of six. That is a very significant margin above threshold. I consider that report to be remarkable. Regarding the durability of an engine, or really any device, I believe that there is a connection between the number of people that use the device and its durability. If only one person uses a device, the device will have a certain durability. Let us call the durability of a device used by one person as D1. If more than one person use a device, we can say that the durability of the device will decrease according to Durability = D1/n, where n is the number of people using the device This means that if you are the only person using a device, an outboard motor for example, you can expect its durability to be D1. If that same device is shared among ten other users, you can expect its total durability to decrease by D1/10. There is also some thinking that the relationship might be more like Durability = D1/n^2.08 I base this estimate on my own personal observations regarding the use of test probes. If in a laboratory there are ten technicians sharing one set of test probes, the test probes have a durabililty of about one month. However, if you buy each technician their own set of test probes, the durability of the test probes increases to about ten years.
andrey320	posted 12-04-2013 04:23 PM ET (US) Seahorse, is that in Avalon? Harbor Patrol in Two Harbors (on Catalina) use Hondas. I've talked with one of the gentleman working there and he said they run the engines til they "disintegrate". According to him, that happens between 4 and 8 thousand hours.
Keeper	posted 12-04-2013 05:23 PM ET (US) What seems significant, to me, is that if these motors (Honda or E-tec) aren't flushed with freshwater daily and are sitting in the water on a mooring can in Avalon. That says a lot for their resistance to corrosion. I wonder how many years those 6000 hours represent?
jcdawg83	posted 12-06-2013 08:37 AM ET (US) A marine mechanic told me several years ago that most people will sell a boat or get tired of a motor before it comes close to wearing out. Using a boat 100 hours a year, like Jim indicated, is about 3 times the average use. The average boater uses their boat (running time) about 30 hours a year according to the mechanic. Of those 30 hours, maybe 2 or 3 are at WOT. He also told me one of the worst things for an outboard engine is non use. This might explain why commercial and patrol boat outboard engines last so long. Those engines are run almost every day, usually continuously for 5-8 hours. The game warden on our local lake told me they put about 1000 hours a year on their engines (all E-tecs) and usually run them for about 5 years before changing boats and engines. He said they have very few problems with the engines. A man I know bought a 21' center console boat with a 200 Yamaha from a guide at Hilton Head. The boat and engine were a little over 2 years old and the engine had 2000 hours on it. My friend bought the rig for a great price and expected to buy an engine within a short time due to the "huge" number of hours. 5 years later, the engine has 2300 hours and still starts if you look at the key hard and runs like a new engine from idle to full throttle. Outboards, like automobiles, last a lot longer than people think they will.
Don SSDD	posted 12-06-2013 03:31 PM ET (US) My experience with any engine is, more use is good for it, as long as it is not abuse. I would call running wide open all the time abuse, or anything above 80-85% throttle all the time. With carb'ed autos, no computers, they will gum up quickly if not run at say 60MPH for an hour on a monthly basis. They need to get hot and stay hot to keep the valves etc cleaned out. With ethanol in gas, you add another layer of risk from low use with the gas going bad more quickly. I have a couple of old V8's plus our volunteer fire dept has a carbed 454 that doesn't see a lot of use. Don
EJO	posted 12-06-2013 04:58 PM ET (US) Nobody mentions the most important factor of all which is Maintenance. jimh mentions the single user and with excellent maintenance a modern combustion engine can last a lot longer than we think. We operate our engines in a clean environment as to combustion air etc. Not dust or contaminate particles enter the engine compared to automotive. If you flush (when using in salt water) and keep a recommended maintenance schedule and use full synthetic oils it will last. It used to be that 1,000 boat hours was equivalent to 100,000 miles in cars I feel that is halved or less now i.e. 1000hrs OB is about 50K miles auto with that assumption I say 4,000 OB hrs becomes a higher or maybe to be rebuild OB engine therefore remarkable. Even though I have car(s) engines with near perfect original compression ratio's far beyond 200K miles only due to proper run-in and maintenance.
jimh	posted 12-07-2013 04:38 AM ET (US) Let us say a car averages 25-MPH, which I think is a reasonable speed average if the car does a majority of its driving on an expressway. If the engine runs to 100,000-miles, a reasonable expectation with today's engines, that will be 4,000-hours of operation. If modern synthetic oil is used as a lubricant, it is reasonable to go 5,000-miles between oil changes, or about 200-hours of operating time between oil changes. A modern outboard engine ought to be able to match those operating times.
seahorse	posted 01-11-2014 10:02 AM ET (US) The Catalina harbor boats that had over 6000 on them were just repowered with new E-TEC 150hp outboards. One engine had a documented 6800 hours on it with original starter and injectors according to the dealer, Avalon Boat Shop
Tom W Clark	posted 01-11-2014 10:54 AM ET (US) A motor that is used all day, every day with thousands of hours on it is not remarkable. You find me a motor that is used 100 hours a season, and has thousands of hours on it, and is still running. THAT would be remarkable.
macfam	posted 01-11-2014 10:59 AM ET (US) My wife's 2014 Prius V (wagon) uses 0W-20 synthetic oil. Recommendation is for oil and filter changes every 10,000 miles! At jimh's stated rate of averaging 30 mph, that's every 333.3 hours. On the Priuschat Forum, there are many older Priuses' with 200-300K miles with no engine problems and running strong. However, our 315 Yanmar diesel, using (dyno)15W-40, recommended oil and filter changes are every 125 hours. After 125 hours.........yuck! Thick, black goop. 315 Yanmar's in commercial use have a pretty good track record at > 10,000 hours. They actually do a lot better if run regularly and run pretty hard.......if maintained properly. Today's modern 4-strokes, DFI 2-strokes, hybrids and diesels are remarkable! Nearly all brands are super dependable. If properly maintained, they really l-a-s-t. Can't wait for the hydrogen fuel cell future.........
jimh	posted 01-12-2014 01:50 PM ET (US) [This thread was revived and its topic changed. The new topic has been moved to its own thread.]