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Author Topic:   VRO Repair Decision

Tom C posted 03-10-2014 09:37 AM ET (US)
I am currently trying to bring back to life a 1988 BW 15 SS. The motor is a 1988 Johnson 60 HP with VRO and 413 hours showing. My decision is (1) should I throw the VRO away and use premix, (2) use the existing VRO and have a mechanic repair what is necessary or (3) have a new VRO installed. I have run premix before and would like to keep the VRO if it is not throwing good money after bad. The motor has not been run since 2010. I am on a budget on this project will probably be way over before finished. Any input from other members will be appreciated.
jcdawg83 posted 03-10-2014 10:18 AM ET (US)
Does the VRO work now? If so, I would lean toward running the engine as it is. If it doesn't work, I would probably go the premix route if budget was a consideration. I imagine the mechanic bill for repair or replacement of the VRO would be enough to buy a lot of oil.

jimh posted 03-10-2014 10:36 AM ET (US)
I am not certain that the VRO pump on a c.1988 OMC motor is of the design that has repair parts available. If the VRO pump is not working, your options may be limited to:
--replacing the VRO pump with an improved model, about a $400 (or more) part; or,
--replacing the VRO pump with a non-VRO model, a less expensive part, but then the automatic oil mixing is lost.
If cost is the most important concern, the least expensive approach is to replace the failed VRO pump with a less expensive non-VRO replacement part and resort to pre-mixing. Since a 60-HP outboard engine probably gets fuel from a 6-gallon on-deck tank, pre-mixing is not a tedious chore.
This thread will be moving to REPAIRS/MODS.
jimh posted 03-10-2014 10:39 AM ET (US)
Moved to REPAIRS/MODS.
AZdave posted 03-10-2014 01:14 PM ET (US)
If you keep the VRO you can put all the fuel (not fuel/oil mix) in a vehicle tank every time you come home from the lake. Then you buy fresh fuel on the way out. Seems like a lot of the ethanol problems would not exist if you do that.
seahorse posted 03-10-2014 02:31 PM ET (US)
The "VRO" pumps did not become rebuildable until the 1998 and later ones. They are recognized by the replaceable fuel and pulse fittings that are retained by an oval stainless steel plate.
Prior pump's fuel pump diaphragms are the same and are easily replaced.
To test a pump thoroughly it needs the pressure-vacuum test, prime test, NO OIL alarm test, and the oil flow test. You can find the procedures In late model service manuals and some in the replacement "VRO" instruction booklet.
If the tank has a clear plastic cap, replace it with a new style that is solid black. On that old a tank the oil line was probably vinyl and super stiff. Use the factory 1/4" oil hose and snap clamps or Oetiker clamps only. Remove the tank, flush it out, and replace the "teabag" style filter. Prime and bleed the oil line when done.
Tom W Clark posted 03-10-2014 03:07 PM ET (US)
Seahorse -- Could you identify which part numbers you are referring to from this diagram?
http://www.boats.net/parts/search/BRP/JOHNSON/1987/J40ELCUD/ VRO%20OIL%20TANK%20KIT-1.8%20GALLON/parts.html
frontier posted 03-10-2014 07:33 PM ET (US)
seahorse - just curious.
What is your overall opinion of the OMC VRO system?
We've had 6 different Evinrude and Johnson VRO outboards over the years, with zero problems.
They have been just as dependable as the Yamaha Precision Blend units.
contender posted 03-10-2014 07:36 PM ET (US)
Throw it out and pre mix your oil and gas, no more problems, less hoses and connections, no tank.
ruest posted 03-10-2014 07:48 PM ET (US)
Tom, you did not say if you were having any fuel delivery issues or if the question was a general one on the reliability of the late 80's VRO system.
If you are having fuel delivery issues you will need to diagnose it to determine the best course of action.
If you are simply worried about a possible VRO failure then that is a different issue.
There are a lot of discussions out there pro and con on which to base a decision if you trust the VRO.
1) Premix - If you go this route there is nothing to throw away, simply cut/plug the Oil input line and the VRO will work just fine as a straight fuel pump for the pre-mix. the engine will run richer at idle, smoke more, and build up more carbon so you may want to run an additive for that.
2)VRO - running it is probably the easiest option, if you are not sure it is functioning you can run some pre-mix off a portable tank while testing it to be sure it is pumping oil.
3)Replace VRO - if you have a problem with the fuel pump and want to run the VRO system this would be the option.
Last summer I had an 88 Johnson 150 which had the VRO disabled was having fuel [problems], the fuel side of the pump was rebuildable but the oil side was not. I found a brand new VRO pump on ebay for $100 which fixed me right up, and I continued to run pre-mix with no issues.
seahorse posted 03-10-2014 11:25 PM ET (US)
Seahorse -- Could you identify which part numbers you are referring to from this diagram?

Hi Tom,
9
10
18
20
seahorse posted 03-10-2014 11:31 PM ET (US)
Frontier,
The VRO works well if set up and bled correctly. There is a lot of misinformation about them - especially on internet forums. Have you studied the VRO reference article here on CW?
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/VRO.html
Tom W Clark posted 03-11-2014 10:07 AM ET (US)
David -- No, I am not having fuel delivery issues, I am simply trying it ensure that a 1987 Johnson 40 that belongs to a neighbor is in good shape for the season.
Seahorse is the most knowledgeable OMC/BRP expert I know so when he offers advice, I pay close attention.
Tom W Clark posted 03-11-2014 10:11 AM ET (US)
Seahorse -- I actually meant the part numbers, not the call-out numbers. I think I have it figured out, but could you double check me?
Cap:
Old style part # 0713851
New style part # 0176217
Hose:
Old part # 0124471 (described as 5/16" Fuel Line)
New style # 122838 (described as 1/4" Oil Line)
Filter:
Same part # 0174377
seahorse posted 03-11-2014 11:04 AM ET (US)
Standard length of oil hose is 15' long - cut from a 25' roll of #778707 hose
other numbers are OK
seahorse posted 03-11-2014 11:06 AM ET (US)
The old oil primer ball was increased in size - similar to the newer fuel primer balls.
Use part number 5008620
Tom W Clark posted 03-11-2014 11:32 AM ET (US)
So, to summarize, you recommend anybody maintaining an older VRO system replace the following parts preemptively:
Cap, BRP part # 0176217
Oil Hose, part #778707
Primer Bulb, part # 5008620
Filter, part # 0174377
...and to use the appropriate Oetiker 167 clamps.
Anything else?
sosmerc posted 03-11-2014 01:05 PM ET (US)
IMHO.......the later model VRO is full time 50:1, so no particular advantage over traditional pre-mix setup...just more convenient for boats with large built-in tanks.
But for a 15ft. Whaler running a relatively small fuel tank (s)...why not just pre-mix and eliminate the potential worry over whether or not the engine is oiling correctly? You clear up some room in the boat and rigging by eliminating the oil tank and hose. You can continue to use the existing VRO as a "fuel pump only" by disconnecting and capping the oil line inlet, and disconnecting the oil warning harness.
Tom C posted 03-11-2014 03:21 PM ET (US)
The boat came with a 15 gal. Pate tank mounted under the thwart. To solve that worry I have purchased a Moeller 15 gal to be mounted the same. Thanks for all the input from everyone.
seahorse posted 03-11-2014 06:10 PM ET (US)
Steve,
The later model "VRO", actually an OMS - oil metering system - is still variable oiling but only between the ranges of 75:1 at idle richening to 50:1 at high speeds. Most users report about a 60:1 average depending on how active their throttle hand is.
For some reason people think it is a fixed ratio but it is not. You can see why by examining the lost motion in the oil pump rod linkage that connects to the air motor rod.
sosmerc posted 03-11-2014 10:49 PM ET (US)
Thanks for clearing that up. Not sure where I got the impression it was a "fixed" ratio. Still, I doubt if it makes a noticeable difference in the performance in comparison to using a pre-mix setup. I've never been a big fan of oil injection, regardless of brand, but I do realize that it is quite a convenience if one is dealing with large fuel tanks.
The problems that I have encountered with VRO equipped OMC engines usually resulted in TOO MUCH oil being delivered...and often it was not really the VRO to blame, but a loose fitting or a restriction in the fuel system. I also believe that when ethanol fuel came on the scene, it affected the performance and durability of the materials used inside the early VRO pumps.
Whenever practical, I've always tried to convince my customers to ditch their oil injection systems and go back to pre-mix. As every year passes, the subject is becoming more a moot point as 4 strokes are becoming the norm. (and with their own set of problems for sure, mostly due to lack of frequent use and today's fuels).
jimh posted 03-12-2014 07:34 AM ET (US)
Much prior discussion exists on the comparison of pre-mixed fuel to automatic oil mixing systems. Neither are foolproof.
Use of ethanol-gasoline blended fuels has revealed weakness in the design of many outboard engine fuel systems, even ones designed in the present day era of almost universal use of E10 fuel. It is not unusual that a device designed before the era of widespread use of E10 could be vulnerable to damage from E10.
For Tom C, with a 15-gallon fuel tank, pre-mixing gasoline and oil should be simple. It should be convenient to add fuel in volumes of 6- or 12-gallons, and those volume of fuel make for corollary amounts of oil to be added in similarly convenient volumes.

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Author	Topic: VRO Repair Decision
Tom C	posted 03-10-2014 09:37 AM ET (US) I am currently trying to bring back to life a 1988 BW 15 SS. The motor is a 1988 Johnson 60 HP with VRO and 413 hours showing. My decision is (1) should I throw the VRO away and use premix, (2) use the existing VRO and have a mechanic repair what is necessary or (3) have a new VRO installed. I have run premix before and would like to keep the VRO if it is not throwing good money after bad. The motor has not been run since 2010. I am on a budget on this project will probably be way over before finished. Any input from other members will be appreciated.
jcdawg83	posted 03-10-2014 10:18 AM ET (US) Does the VRO work now? If so, I would lean toward running the engine as it is. If it doesn't work, I would probably go the premix route if budget was a consideration. I imagine the mechanic bill for repair or replacement of the VRO would be enough to buy a lot of oil.
jimh	posted 03-10-2014 10:36 AM ET (US) I am not certain that the VRO pump on a c.1988 OMC motor is of the design that has repair parts available. If the VRO pump is not working, your options may be limited to: --replacing the VRO pump with an improved model, about a $400 (or more) part; or, --replacing the VRO pump with a non-VRO model, a less expensive part, but then the automatic oil mixing is lost. If cost is the most important concern, the least expensive approach is to replace the failed VRO pump with a less expensive non-VRO replacement part and resort to pre-mixing. Since a 60-HP outboard engine probably gets fuel from a 6-gallon on-deck tank, pre-mixing is not a tedious chore. This thread will be moving to REPAIRS/MODS.
jimh	posted 03-10-2014 10:39 AM ET (US) Moved to REPAIRS/MODS.
AZdave	posted 03-10-2014 01:14 PM ET (US) If you keep the VRO you can put all the fuel (not fuel/oil mix) in a vehicle tank every time you come home from the lake. Then you buy fresh fuel on the way out. Seems like a lot of the ethanol problems would not exist if you do that.
seahorse	posted 03-10-2014 02:31 PM ET (US) The "VRO" pumps did not become rebuildable until the 1998 and later ones. They are recognized by the replaceable fuel and pulse fittings that are retained by an oval stainless steel plate. Prior pump's fuel pump diaphragms are the same and are easily replaced. To test a pump thoroughly it needs the pressure-vacuum test, prime test, NO OIL alarm test, and the oil flow test. You can find the procedures In late model service manuals and some in the replacement "VRO" instruction booklet. If the tank has a clear plastic cap, replace it with a new style that is solid black. On that old a tank the oil line was probably vinyl and super stiff. Use the factory 1/4" oil hose and snap clamps or Oetiker clamps only. Remove the tank, flush it out, and replace the "teabag" style filter. Prime and bleed the oil line when done.
Tom W Clark	posted 03-10-2014 03:07 PM ET (US) Seahorse -- Could you identify which part numbers you are referring to from this diagram? http://www.boats.net/parts/search/BRP/JOHNSON/1987/J40ELCUD/ VRO%20OIL%20TANK%20KIT-1.8%20GALLON/parts.html
frontier	posted 03-10-2014 07:33 PM ET (US) seahorse - just curious. What is your overall opinion of the OMC VRO system? We've had 6 different Evinrude and Johnson VRO outboards over the years, with zero problems. They have been just as dependable as the Yamaha Precision Blend units.
contender	posted 03-10-2014 07:36 PM ET (US) Throw it out and pre mix your oil and gas, no more problems, less hoses and connections, no tank.
ruest	posted 03-10-2014 07:48 PM ET (US) Tom, you did not say if you were having any fuel delivery issues or if the question was a general one on the reliability of the late 80's VRO system. If you are having fuel delivery issues you will need to diagnose it to determine the best course of action. If you are simply worried about a possible VRO failure then that is a different issue. There are a lot of discussions out there pro and con on which to base a decision if you trust the VRO. 1) Premix - If you go this route there is nothing to throw away, simply cut/plug the Oil input line and the VRO will work just fine as a straight fuel pump for the pre-mix. the engine will run richer at idle, smoke more, and build up more carbon so you may want to run an additive for that. 2)VRO - running it is probably the easiest option, if you are not sure it is functioning you can run some pre-mix off a portable tank while testing it to be sure it is pumping oil. 3)Replace VRO - if you have a problem with the fuel pump and want to run the VRO system this would be the option. Last summer I had an 88 Johnson 150 which had the VRO disabled was having fuel [problems], the fuel side of the pump was rebuildable but the oil side was not. I found a brand new VRO pump on ebay for $100 which fixed me right up, and I continued to run pre-mix with no issues.
seahorse	posted 03-10-2014 11:25 PM ET (US) Seahorse -- Could you identify which part numbers you are referring to from this diagram? Hi Tom, 9 10 18 20
seahorse	posted 03-10-2014 11:31 PM ET (US) Frontier, The VRO works well if set up and bled correctly. There is a lot of misinformation about them - especially on internet forums. Have you studied the VRO reference article here on CW? http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/VRO.html
Tom W Clark	posted 03-11-2014 10:07 AM ET (US) David -- No, I am not having fuel delivery issues, I am simply trying it ensure that a 1987 Johnson 40 that belongs to a neighbor is in good shape for the season. Seahorse is the most knowledgeable OMC/BRP expert I know so when he offers advice, I pay close attention.
Tom W Clark	posted 03-11-2014 10:11 AM ET (US) Seahorse -- I actually meant the part numbers, not the call-out numbers. I think I have it figured out, but could you double check me? Cap: Old style part # 0713851 New style part # 0176217 Hose: Old part # 0124471 (described as 5/16" Fuel Line) New style # 122838 (described as 1/4" Oil Line) Filter: Same part # 0174377
seahorse	posted 03-11-2014 11:04 AM ET (US) Standard length of oil hose is 15' long - cut from a 25' roll of #778707 hose other numbers are OK
seahorse	posted 03-11-2014 11:06 AM ET (US) The old oil primer ball was increased in size - similar to the newer fuel primer balls. Use part number 5008620
Tom W Clark	posted 03-11-2014 11:32 AM ET (US) So, to summarize, you recommend anybody maintaining an older VRO system replace the following parts preemptively: Cap, BRP part # 0176217 Oil Hose, part #778707 Primer Bulb, part # 5008620 Filter, part # 0174377 ...and to use the appropriate Oetiker 167 clamps. Anything else?
sosmerc	posted 03-11-2014 01:05 PM ET (US) IMHO.......the later model VRO is full time 50:1, so no particular advantage over traditional pre-mix setup...just more convenient for boats with large built-in tanks. But for a 15ft. Whaler running a relatively small fuel tank (s)...why not just pre-mix and eliminate the potential worry over whether or not the engine is oiling correctly? You clear up some room in the boat and rigging by eliminating the oil tank and hose. You can continue to use the existing VRO as a "fuel pump only" by disconnecting and capping the oil line inlet, and disconnecting the oil warning harness.
Tom C	posted 03-11-2014 03:21 PM ET (US) The boat came with a 15 gal. Pate tank mounted under the thwart. To solve that worry I have purchased a Moeller 15 gal to be mounted the same. Thanks for all the input from everyone.
seahorse	posted 03-11-2014 06:10 PM ET (US) Steve, The later model "VRO", actually an OMS - oil metering system - is still variable oiling but only between the ranges of 75:1 at idle richening to 50:1 at high speeds. Most users report about a 60:1 average depending on how active their throttle hand is. For some reason people think it is a fixed ratio but it is not. You can see why by examining the lost motion in the oil pump rod linkage that connects to the air motor rod.
sosmerc	posted 03-11-2014 10:49 PM ET (US) Thanks for clearing that up. Not sure where I got the impression it was a "fixed" ratio. Still, I doubt if it makes a noticeable difference in the performance in comparison to using a pre-mix setup. I've never been a big fan of oil injection, regardless of brand, but I do realize that it is quite a convenience if one is dealing with large fuel tanks. The problems that I have encountered with VRO equipped OMC engines usually resulted in TOO MUCH oil being delivered...and often it was not really the VRO to blame, but a loose fitting or a restriction in the fuel system. I also believe that when ethanol fuel came on the scene, it affected the performance and durability of the materials used inside the early VRO pumps. Whenever practical, I've always tried to convince my customers to ditch their oil injection systems and go back to pre-mix. As every year passes, the subject is becoming more a moot point as 4 strokes are becoming the norm. (and with their own set of problems for sure, mostly due to lack of frequent use and today's fuels).
jimh	posted 03-12-2014 07:34 AM ET (US) Much prior discussion exists on the comparison of pre-mixed fuel to automatic oil mixing systems. Neither are foolproof. Use of ethanol-gasoline blended fuels has revealed weakness in the design of many outboard engine fuel systems, even ones designed in the present day era of almost universal use of E10 fuel. It is not unusual that a device designed before the era of widespread use of E10 could be vulnerable to damage from E10. For Tom C, with a 15-gallon fuel tank, pre-mixing gasoline and oil should be simple. It should be convenient to add fuel in volumes of 6- or 12-gallons, and those volume of fuel make for corollary amounts of oil to be added in similarly convenient volumes.