steering frozen - Moderated Discussion Areas

  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: Whaler Repairs/Mods
  steering frozen

search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   steering frozen

gmoulder posted 08-10-2014 04:00 PM ET (US)
Help. The boat is a 1988 Outrage 18 with twin Johnson 70s. Ran the boat two weeks ago and no problems with the steering. This afternoon I put the boat into the water and discover that I cannot turn the wheel. The exposed portions of the steering mechanisms are dry [should have seen this sooner], I greased them and tried pushing and pulling the motors after pulling the boat out of the water. I leaned on the wheel but not knowing how the thing works, did not want to "wring" anything off. There appear to be two hydraulic hoses which go to the engine [starboard] from the console. There is no visable oil in the splash well or under the console. In the words of Rosanne Rosannadana, "its always something". Would someone please tell me what is going on here, and how I fix it. Maybe then I will know how to not let it happen again.Thank you, Glen
tedious posted 08-10-2014 10:20 PM ET (US)
Glen, can you clarify the type of steering system you have?
Tim
Whalrman posted 08-11-2014 02:53 PM ET (US)
If you can post some pictures of your steering set-up.
gmoulder posted 08-11-2014 09:22 PM ET (US)
From the quick look that I had this weekend, and images on the computer, it is a Teleflex of some sort. Will get all information this weekend. There are two cables which come from the console and end at the starboard engine. Maybe that is some help, before the weekend. Saw good video of Teleflex techician maintaining the connection to the engine.
tedious posted 08-12-2014 07:56 AM ET (US)
Glen, I am confused about whether you have a Teleflex hydraulic or cable system. If it's hydraulic, then you can turn the wheel as hard as you want - the helm pump has internal release valves, and you won't hurt anything. In fact, turning the wheel past the stops is the way you get air out of the system.
A good experiment no matter what the type of system would be to try to move the motors at various levels of tilt, and see if there is any difference.
It may be a cable system, possibly a dual one from your description - if that's the case, a good diagnostic step would be to unhook the steering from the motors themselves, and see if they turn easily by hand. That same next step would be good if you're hydraulic, and the wheel won't move the motors no matter how hard you turn it.
You need to find out if the steering itself is frozen up, or one or both motors.
Tim
Whalrman posted 08-12-2014 10:26 AM ET (US)
Sounds like the twin cable system from Teleflex. The cable ends are going to be very greasy so have plenty of rags handy, I found that a good thick plastic garbage bag will work for the console ends going in the twin helm units, to help keep the console and surrounding are clean. Probably one of the helm units has gone bad as there are gears that "grab" the cable to move them. Also look into getting a fitting called a "steersman nut", you will need two of them, of which has a zerk fitting on it so that you can grease the rams and inside the tilt tubes at least twice a year.
gmoulder posted 08-12-2014 05:41 PM ET (US)
Thanks everyone, all will be revealed this Friday. Some steps planned are: read all the names and model numbers that I can, remove the cable from the starboard tilt tube [this may require some effort / impact], and other cable also. Then, try to turn the engines disconnected, if they move it is the steering. If I can loosen the cable thingy inside the tilt tube, that might fix it. If that fails, I guess the fix might be the cable having seized in the housing; and after that, it might be the gearing at the end of the wheel. Glen
gmoulder posted 08-13-2014 08:58 PM ET (US)
Everyone, Hope to get some more advice before Friday. Looked at the boat this evening, this is what appears to be the steering. Teleflex rotary. There are TWO gear heads on the end of the steering wheel shaft, TWO cables lead aft to the starboard engine, both attach to the the starboard engine. One passes through the engine tilt tube. The other passes through a tube device bolted to the forward face of the engine. The center to center of the cables is approximately 2 1/2". The rams which pass through the engine tube and sleeve end in a yoke which then collects a rod which drives the port engine. Why are there two cables? Could it be that one cable does not have the strength to operate two engines? Reading a blog on Teleflex last night may help. The fellow said that the tilt tube rusts on the inside, cannot be cleaned, and must be replaced; if the cable is frozen in the tilt tube. Thanks, Glen
tedious posted 08-14-2014 09:30 AM ET (US)
Glen, that's the Teleflex dual-cable system - it's used for higher horsepower configurations. My sister-in-law has the same thing on an Outrage 18, steering a Honda 150. Her setup is pretty stiff - we've tried lubing it but it didn't make much difference.
I still think the best bet is
1) see if any tilt position makes a difference
2) unhook the steering from the motors, and see if the motors themselves are moving freely
If the motors are moving OK on their own (and I'll be they are) then you need to start tearing the steering down to see what's stuck. You may need new cables.
Tim
gmoulder posted 08-14-2014 12:34 PM ET (US)
Tim, Thanks for the great advice. Will get after this business first thing tomorrow. If nothing else, it has reminded me how quickly steel deteriorates in a salt water atmosphere. A report will be provided by Monday.
Don SSDD posted 08-14-2014 01:41 PM ET (US)
Use a penetrating spray fluid, WD-40, that sort of thing, on the inside of the tube where it is likely rusted. If you can get it to move at all it may free up enough to get it apart and clean and regrease it. You can get more pressure on the rusted joint by pushing the motor back and forth, instead of doing that via the steering wheel.
I installed a Steersman Nut a few years ago, haven't had this problem since.
Don
gmoulder posted 08-14-2014 08:58 PM ET (US)
Don, Thanks for the feedback. What is a "Steersman Nut?" Glen
tedious posted 08-15-2014 07:40 AM ET (US)
http://www.steersman.com/html/whatitdoes.html
I don't know if they make a version that will work with the dual-cable setup.
gmoulder posted 08-15-2014 01:13 PM ET (US)
Everyone, Here is where we are with the steering business: disconnected cable rams from yoke and port engine, engines turned with little effort. Turned wheel with effort, cable rams came out with effort. Disconnected cable housings from tubes / sleeves, outside cable end ran freely. Cables appear to be new. Guess that is where some of the Alabama money went. Tilt tube cable end running through the tilt tube is not running freely, so I decided to drive it out using a wooden dowel. Of course the dowel became stuck, and as you know, the cable housing will not pass the starboard inside hull, so the cables cannot be fully removed. Go over to my nearby marine repair folks [$100 / hour right there at the desk]. Man says "oh, yes, must remove engine to remove cable and dowel, then hone inside of tilt tube." Bulletin for repair shop. Will go to hardware store and buy small wire cable come-along, Tie a logger's hitch to the dowel, remove dowel, and then I will have room to hone / clean the inside of tilt tube before returning cable and all to proper place. Have not honed anything in a while. Bough some 400 emery paper, and the sticking place seems to be just inside the inside of the starboard tilt tube. $100 per hour, sure thing. What I could see of the tilt tube cable end looked very smooth, no pits, Will find out [maybe what the sticking part is. Thanks,
macfam posted 08-15-2014 02:55 PM ET (US)
OK,
When re-installing, take the above advice:
A STEERSMAN NUT on both, and use a small about of waterproof grease in the zerks.
No more problems!
Whalrman posted 08-16-2014 02:03 PM ET (US)
There is such a tool made for what you are doing. It is a long round wire brush that I think fits into a drill motor so you can clean out the inside of the tube. Don't forget the steersman nut as I mentioned earlier. Use BRP (Evinrude) triple guard grease or some similar water proof grease for reinstallation.
gmoulder posted 08-16-2014 09:29 PM ET (US)
Everyone,
It went from getting better to getting worse. I pushed the cable end through the tilt tube until it then hit the hull. I cleaned the tilt tube as best I could with a 1 / 2" drill and shotgun cleaner chucked onto a drill motor. I could feel drill bit hitting corrosion inside the tube. Corrosion or not, the cable end appears to be about 3" into the tube, and will not go further. Even hooked up a 1 ton comealong and put a timberline hitch onto the cable. I am out of ideas. Don't want to make things worse, and may be forced to take boat to repair shop. As I was leaving the local shop, the guy at the counter said, "you are going to have to pull the engine." Hate to admit defeat, but do not have anyone to help me when I rent an engine puller. Did this before to raise the engines, and then lower them back. Any ideas? Thanks, Glen
mag posted 08-17-2014 08:17 AM ET (US)
Not sure this will help ... but I used to have a similar issue with the steering on my 1978 Johnson 175HP. My solution was to periodically ream-out the tube using a hand-drill and an all-thread wrapped with sand-paper. The sand-paper was held in place by cutting a slot in the all-thread.
macfam posted 08-17-2014 08:46 AM ET (US)
gmoulder,
Are you using some sort of lubricant sprayed into the tube, (WD40 etc)?
Years ago, I had to use lots of spray, and bits of rag attached to a thin dowel to get all the rusty crap out of that tube.
Whalrman posted 08-17-2014 09:53 AM ET (US)
Hi, did you shorten the ram by turning the helm all the way to port? Also why is the cable stopping, by hitting the inside of the boat and not allowing any more room or just stopping in the tube?
gmoulder posted 08-18-2014 09:40 AM ET (US)
everyone,
Am not giving up, am fixing this thing myself. Starboard cable end is stuck in the tilt tube. Will not go in and cannot come any further out. Turning the wheel does not help. Have used standard length 1/2" drill bit which is hitting corrosion. Have assembled all the tools for this weekend, including the 4200. In the tool kit is a 5/8"dia. 12"long masonary drill bit. My helper and I will disconnect the engine from the transom, it is pretty well disconnected from everything else, drift it away from the starboard side to the point where I can pull the cable out. After that, I will ream the tilt tube with the masonary bit and try to polish with the shotgun cleaner. Will put lots of lithium grease in the tube and maintain the cable end. Oh the joys of having a twin setup. Thanks, Glen
outragesteve posted 08-18-2014 02:43 PM ET (US)
Have you thought of going to hydraulic steering? Cost: Yes. Problems down the road: Very few. Good luck!
gmoulder posted 08-23-2014 07:44 PM ET (US)
Everyone,
The steering is now better than ever. Took some doing, my helper and I drifted the starboard engine to the left enough to allow removing the Teleflex cable end from the tilt tube. It had to be driven out at great effort. We then cleaned the inside in a variety of ways, don't know which really helped: all-thread rod, shot gun cleaner, other instruments of torture. Cleaned everything, lubricated with Lithium grease, put it all back together. Not sure even now what the problem was. There did not appear to be that much corrosion in the tube--sure not any now. The culprit is likely to have been a bent cable end. As you know, when the wheel is to one extreme side, the cable end is exposed for most of its length. There was debate over whether to try to straighten the cable end or to replace the entire cable, so we went to lunch. The issue was decided in favor of tapping on the cable end with large hammer backed up by another hammer. The cable end was examined often to see any improvement. The cable end sheath was bent perhaps 1/16-inch out of straight, if that, and that was the problem, I am fairly certain. We cured that without collapsing the sheath onto the inner core. No idea how it was bent, The cable end sheath is stainless and the tube is carbon. As the boat could be--is in my case--in salt water, not sure the design materials and tolerances are the smartest. I mean really, about 1/32 to 1/16-inch diameter delta between sheath OD and ID of tube. We thought, also, about drilling the tube out, but decided not to, as it would have required a 5/8-inch drill through approximately 12-inch of tube. Not sure about lessons learned from this adventure, other than take several good close-up photos of the "before". In your haste to get everything apart, you may forget what was really going on when it is time to put it all back together. Thanks, Glen
tedious posted 08-27-2014 03:06 PM ET (US)
Nice work! Glad you got it sorted out.
I have hydraulic steering on another boat, and from experience I'd definitely stay with the Teleflex cable setup unless the size of the motor requires hydraulic.
Tim

Hop to:

Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.

Author	Topic: steering frozen
gmoulder	posted 08-10-2014 04:00 PM ET (US) Help. The boat is a 1988 Outrage 18 with twin Johnson 70s. Ran the boat two weeks ago and no problems with the steering. This afternoon I put the boat into the water and discover that I cannot turn the wheel. The exposed portions of the steering mechanisms are dry [should have seen this sooner], I greased them and tried pushing and pulling the motors after pulling the boat out of the water. I leaned on the wheel but not knowing how the thing works, did not want to "wring" anything off. There appear to be two hydraulic hoses which go to the engine [starboard] from the console. There is no visable oil in the splash well or under the console. In the words of Rosanne Rosannadana, "its always something". Would someone please tell me what is going on here, and how I fix it. Maybe then I will know how to not let it happen again.Thank you, Glen
tedious	posted 08-10-2014 10:20 PM ET (US) Glen, can you clarify the type of steering system you have? Tim
Whalrman	posted 08-11-2014 02:53 PM ET (US) If you can post some pictures of your steering set-up.
gmoulder	posted 08-11-2014 09:22 PM ET (US) From the quick look that I had this weekend, and images on the computer, it is a Teleflex of some sort. Will get all information this weekend. There are two cables which come from the console and end at the starboard engine. Maybe that is some help, before the weekend. Saw good video of Teleflex techician maintaining the connection to the engine.
tedious	posted 08-12-2014 07:56 AM ET (US) Glen, I am confused about whether you have a Teleflex hydraulic or cable system. If it's hydraulic, then you can turn the wheel as hard as you want - the helm pump has internal release valves, and you won't hurt anything. In fact, turning the wheel past the stops is the way you get air out of the system. A good experiment no matter what the type of system would be to try to move the motors at various levels of tilt, and see if there is any difference. It may be a cable system, possibly a dual one from your description - if that's the case, a good diagnostic step would be to unhook the steering from the motors themselves, and see if they turn easily by hand. That same next step would be good if you're hydraulic, and the wheel won't move the motors no matter how hard you turn it. You need to find out if the steering itself is frozen up, or one or both motors. Tim
Whalrman	posted 08-12-2014 10:26 AM ET (US) Sounds like the twin cable system from Teleflex. The cable ends are going to be very greasy so have plenty of rags handy, I found that a good thick plastic garbage bag will work for the console ends going in the twin helm units, to help keep the console and surrounding are clean. Probably one of the helm units has gone bad as there are gears that "grab" the cable to move them. Also look into getting a fitting called a "steersman nut", you will need two of them, of which has a zerk fitting on it so that you can grease the rams and inside the tilt tubes at least twice a year.
gmoulder	posted 08-12-2014 05:41 PM ET (US) Thanks everyone, all will be revealed this Friday. Some steps planned are: read all the names and model numbers that I can, remove the cable from the starboard tilt tube [this may require some effort / impact], and other cable also. Then, try to turn the engines disconnected, if they move it is the steering. If I can loosen the cable thingy inside the tilt tube, that might fix it. If that fails, I guess the fix might be the cable having seized in the housing; and after that, it might be the gearing at the end of the wheel. Glen
gmoulder	posted 08-13-2014 08:58 PM ET (US) Everyone, Hope to get some more advice before Friday. Looked at the boat this evening, this is what appears to be the steering. Teleflex rotary. There are TWO gear heads on the end of the steering wheel shaft, TWO cables lead aft to the starboard engine, both attach to the the starboard engine. One passes through the engine tilt tube. The other passes through a tube device bolted to the forward face of the engine. The center to center of the cables is approximately 2 1/2". The rams which pass through the engine tube and sleeve end in a yoke which then collects a rod which drives the port engine. Why are there two cables? Could it be that one cable does not have the strength to operate two engines? Reading a blog on Teleflex last night may help. The fellow said that the tilt tube rusts on the inside, cannot be cleaned, and must be replaced; if the cable is frozen in the tilt tube. Thanks, Glen
tedious	posted 08-14-2014 09:30 AM ET (US) Glen, that's the Teleflex dual-cable system - it's used for higher horsepower configurations. My sister-in-law has the same thing on an Outrage 18, steering a Honda 150. Her setup is pretty stiff - we've tried lubing it but it didn't make much difference. I still think the best bet is 1) see if any tilt position makes a difference 2) unhook the steering from the motors, and see if the motors themselves are moving freely If the motors are moving OK on their own (and I'll be they are) then you need to start tearing the steering down to see what's stuck. You may need new cables. Tim
gmoulder	posted 08-14-2014 12:34 PM ET (US) Tim, Thanks for the great advice. Will get after this business first thing tomorrow. If nothing else, it has reminded me how quickly steel deteriorates in a salt water atmosphere. A report will be provided by Monday.
Don SSDD	posted 08-14-2014 01:41 PM ET (US) Use a penetrating spray fluid, WD-40, that sort of thing, on the inside of the tube where it is likely rusted. If you can get it to move at all it may free up enough to get it apart and clean and regrease it. You can get more pressure on the rusted joint by pushing the motor back and forth, instead of doing that via the steering wheel. I installed a Steersman Nut a few years ago, haven't had this problem since. Don
gmoulder	posted 08-14-2014 08:58 PM ET (US) Don, Thanks for the feedback. What is a "Steersman Nut?" Glen
tedious	posted 08-15-2014 07:40 AM ET (US) http://www.steersman.com/html/whatitdoes.html I don't know if they make a version that will work with the dual-cable setup.
gmoulder	posted 08-15-2014 01:13 PM ET (US) Everyone, Here is where we are with the steering business: disconnected cable rams from yoke and port engine, engines turned with little effort. Turned wheel with effort, cable rams came out with effort. Disconnected cable housings from tubes / sleeves, outside cable end ran freely. Cables appear to be new. Guess that is where some of the Alabama money went. Tilt tube cable end running through the tilt tube is not running freely, so I decided to drive it out using a wooden dowel. Of course the dowel became stuck, and as you know, the cable housing will not pass the starboard inside hull, so the cables cannot be fully removed. Go over to my nearby marine repair folks [$100 / hour right there at the desk]. Man says "oh, yes, must remove engine to remove cable and dowel, then hone inside of tilt tube." Bulletin for repair shop. Will go to hardware store and buy small wire cable come-along, Tie a logger's hitch to the dowel, remove dowel, and then I will have room to hone / clean the inside of tilt tube before returning cable and all to proper place. Have not honed anything in a while. Bough some 400 emery paper, and the sticking place seems to be just inside the inside of the starboard tilt tube. $100 per hour, sure thing. What I could see of the tilt tube cable end looked very smooth, no pits, Will find out [maybe what the sticking part is. Thanks,
macfam	posted 08-15-2014 02:55 PM ET (US) OK, When re-installing, take the above advice: A STEERSMAN NUT on both, and use a small about of waterproof grease in the zerks. No more problems!
Whalrman	posted 08-16-2014 02:03 PM ET (US) There is such a tool made for what you are doing. It is a long round wire brush that I think fits into a drill motor so you can clean out the inside of the tube. Don't forget the steersman nut as I mentioned earlier. Use BRP (Evinrude) triple guard grease or some similar water proof grease for reinstallation.
gmoulder	posted 08-16-2014 09:29 PM ET (US) Everyone, It went from getting better to getting worse. I pushed the cable end through the tilt tube until it then hit the hull. I cleaned the tilt tube as best I could with a 1 / 2" drill and shotgun cleaner chucked onto a drill motor. I could feel drill bit hitting corrosion inside the tube. Corrosion or not, the cable end appears to be about 3" into the tube, and will not go further. Even hooked up a 1 ton comealong and put a timberline hitch onto the cable. I am out of ideas. Don't want to make things worse, and may be forced to take boat to repair shop. As I was leaving the local shop, the guy at the counter said, "you are going to have to pull the engine." Hate to admit defeat, but do not have anyone to help me when I rent an engine puller. Did this before to raise the engines, and then lower them back. Any ideas? Thanks, Glen
mag	posted 08-17-2014 08:17 AM ET (US) Not sure this will help ... but I used to have a similar issue with the steering on my 1978 Johnson 175HP. My solution was to periodically ream-out the tube using a hand-drill and an all-thread wrapped with sand-paper. The sand-paper was held in place by cutting a slot in the all-thread.
macfam	posted 08-17-2014 08:46 AM ET (US) gmoulder, Are you using some sort of lubricant sprayed into the tube, (WD40 etc)? Years ago, I had to use lots of spray, and bits of rag attached to a thin dowel to get all the rusty crap out of that tube.
Whalrman	posted 08-17-2014 09:53 AM ET (US) Hi, did you shorten the ram by turning the helm all the way to port? Also why is the cable stopping, by hitting the inside of the boat and not allowing any more room or just stopping in the tube?
gmoulder	posted 08-18-2014 09:40 AM ET (US) everyone, Am not giving up, am fixing this thing myself. Starboard cable end is stuck in the tilt tube. Will not go in and cannot come any further out. Turning the wheel does not help. Have used standard length 1/2" drill bit which is hitting corrosion. Have assembled all the tools for this weekend, including the 4200. In the tool kit is a 5/8"dia. 12"long masonary drill bit. My helper and I will disconnect the engine from the transom, it is pretty well disconnected from everything else, drift it away from the starboard side to the point where I can pull the cable out. After that, I will ream the tilt tube with the masonary bit and try to polish with the shotgun cleaner. Will put lots of lithium grease in the tube and maintain the cable end. Oh the joys of having a twin setup. Thanks, Glen
outragesteve	posted 08-18-2014 02:43 PM ET (US) Have you thought of going to hydraulic steering? Cost: Yes. Problems down the road: Very few. Good luck!
gmoulder	posted 08-23-2014 07:44 PM ET (US) Everyone, The steering is now better than ever. Took some doing, my helper and I drifted the starboard engine to the left enough to allow removing the Teleflex cable end from the tilt tube. It had to be driven out at great effort. We then cleaned the inside in a variety of ways, don't know which really helped: all-thread rod, shot gun cleaner, other instruments of torture. Cleaned everything, lubricated with Lithium grease, put it all back together. Not sure even now what the problem was. There did not appear to be that much corrosion in the tube--sure not any now. The culprit is likely to have been a bent cable end. As you know, when the wheel is to one extreme side, the cable end is exposed for most of its length. There was debate over whether to try to straighten the cable end or to replace the entire cable, so we went to lunch. The issue was decided in favor of tapping on the cable end with large hammer backed up by another hammer. The cable end was examined often to see any improvement. The cable end sheath was bent perhaps 1/16-inch out of straight, if that, and that was the problem, I am fairly certain. We cured that without collapsing the sheath onto the inner core. No idea how it was bent, The cable end sheath is stainless and the tube is carbon. As the boat could be--is in my case--in salt water, not sure the design materials and tolerances are the smartest. I mean really, about 1/32 to 1/16-inch diameter delta between sheath OD and ID of tube. We thought, also, about drilling the tube out, but decided not to, as it would have required a 5/8-inch drill through approximately 12-inch of tube. Not sure about lessons learned from this adventure, other than take several good close-up photos of the "before". In your haste to get everything apart, you may forget what was really going on when it is time to put it all back together. Thanks, Glen
tedious	posted 08-27-2014 03:06 PM ET (US) Nice work! Glad you got it sorted out. I have hydraulic steering on another boat, and from experience I'd definitely stay with the Teleflex cable setup unless the size of the motor requires hydraulic. Tim