Repairing Old Fastener Holes; Engine Bracket; Loose Bow Eye

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Author Topic:   Repairing Old Fastener Holes; Engine Bracket; Loose Bow Eye

scott3294 posted 01-05-2015 06:26 PM ET (US)
I finally got the Montauk up to north Georgia this weekend and got to spend some quality time with it. I have definitely decided that I am replacing the engine. The Honda will be sold. The new year deals on the E-TEC are Very good!
That said, I also want to spruce up the hull. Someone in the ownership line of this boat went screw happy--had accessories installed, and when removed, just left the screws. I really want to refinish the whole boat, and I still may, but my first concern is what to do with all these holes. Here are some pics.
Also, the bow eye has really eaten away at the hull...there are pics of that too. I need to repair that.
The boat has an engine bracket, and have read the reference article on here about those. Has the prevailing thinking "evolved" any as to whether these are a positive? Need to decide if I keep it when I put the new Etec on.
I know my path on this boat may not be the path others would take, but I have always loved the Montauk, and now that I have one, I want it to be finished nicely.
Any suggestions are always appreciated.
Scott

daveb posted 01-05-2015 08:28 PM ET (US)
Use West System with 407 filler. Mix to slightly thicker than ketchup thickness. Drill the old hole sligntly larger and inject with a small syringe. Prep all noles the same way and knock them all up at once. When they puke from the fill, slap a piece of masking tape to retain the fill and keep excess from drooling down. An assistant to follow you with the tape will help tons. Let the enlarges holes dry for a bit first, aid with a hair dryer after enlarging the holes. Dig?

Dave
scott3294 posted 01-05-2015 08:40 PM ET (US)
Thanks Dave!! Digged!
Scott
cys posted 01-05-2015 11:16 PM ET (US)
When faced with the same repairs on a Montauk I acquired this past year, I went with West System epoxy thickened with filler to repair the area around the bow eye and West System G/flex to fill screw holes. The nice thing about G/flex is that it has a long pot life, which is useful when filling numerous holes.
jimh posted 01-06-2015 09:54 AM ET (US)
Epoxy resin that has been thickened with a filler is a good choice for filling holes from old fasteners. I often have used it. I also usually tint the epoxy resin with acrylic paint pigment to improve the color match between the resin and the hull. Epoxy resin will change color over time, with a tendency to become more yellow. I believe this is caused by exposure to ultra-violet radiation in sunlight.
If a more stable color match is desired, the epoxy resin will need a top-coating with polyester resin that has been tinted to match the hull color and prepared with additives that will permit the polyester resin to cure to a hard surface.
There is proper concern about the application of polyester resin over epoxy resin. When epoxy resin cures, it releases a chemical to the surface that tends to act as an inhibitor for polyester resin to cure. These chemicals are called an "amine blush." The amine blush must be scrubbed off the cured epoxy. Amines are water soluble, and hot soapy water is a good solvent for removing them. Note that alcohol or other esters are not usually good solvents for anime blush. Scrub the cured epoxy with hot soapy water or other detergents. It is also recommend to post-cure the epoxy with a heat gun--not too hot--to further encourage the release of any amines. Do this before washing.
Polyester resin does not cure very well in air. For repairs, a wax agent is sometimes added. The wax tends to come to the surface and form a temporary seal to keep out the air. Another method is to use un-doctored resin and apply a temporary top-coat of poly-vinyl alcohol (PVA) to the uncured resin. The PVA will also keep out air, and can be wiped away when the resin has cured.
For a description of the general method, see
THE EPOXY CURE
http://continuouswave.com/maintenance-logs/epoxy/
scott3294 posted 01-06-2015 12:08 PM ET (US)
Thanks guys!
Any new thoughts on the motor bracket...keep it or go direct mount?
Thanks
Scott
64nauset posted 01-06-2015 12:22 PM ET (US)
Re: Polyester over epoxy
One could use a non-amine resin/hardener combination to avoid that embarrassing blush. One possibility is Mas epoxy resin with the slow hardener. I've tried it. Works fine. No blush, not fuss. It's got to be the "slow" hardener though. Their fast or medium hardeners blush a bit and cured material using those two should be cleared of amine before further coating. I would imagine there are other non-blushing epoxies out there.
scott3294 posted 01-06-2015 12:42 PM ET (US)
Did I correctly read in other posts about the bow eye repair that some folks are actually taking the lifting nut off, taking the long screw out of the hull, filling the entire hole (all the way through the hull) with epoxy, and then re-drilling a new hole through the epoxy for the screw? Sounds cool. I just want to make sure I read that right.
tedious posted 01-07-2015 07:59 AM ET (US)
I'll just mention that there are polyester fillers available that avoid the amine blush and subsequent adhesion problems that can occur with epoxies. Your Whaler was built with polyester resin and gelcoat, why not use something directly compatible?
Tim
jimh posted 01-07-2015 09:25 AM ET (US)
If the bracket you have on the MONTAUK now is a nice bracket, and if it is nicely installed and bolted to the transom, and if it is still in good condition--the adjustment threaded rods work and the bracket can be adjusted--then I would be tempted to leave it in place and install the new E-TEC engine to it.
jimh posted 01-07-2015 09:30 AM ET (US)
If the bow eye and its long threaded rod have been loose and working to enlarge the hole in the hull and the hull surfaces, the best repair method is to remove all the hardware. Then build up the worn or damaged area of the hull where the bow eye and the eye nut will press against. Repair the hole through the hull by building up the walls. You do not have to completely fill the existing hole. Just build up the structure of the hull in the hole and surrounding area. You may only need to partially fill the hole with resin and filler, just to the point that you can re-drill the hole and have all fresh material.
You weren't kidding about the prior owner having installed a lot of screws. There are so many holes to be filled it is going to be quite a project. If cosmetic appearance will be important, you probably should consider having the whole topsides re-done. You could fill and fair all the holes, then have the topside re-sprayed with a new top coat. A modern paint like AWLGRIP might be simpler than redoing the gel coat.
On the other hand, there are so many hole to be repaired that, if you do it hole-by-hole, you will become an expert at that repair by the time you are done. You may be able to get excellent results with a good color-matched gel coat resin. I'd suggest you start with a few hole repairs and see what sort of results you can get.
scott3294 posted 01-07-2015 02:12 PM ET (US)
Thanks Jim! Yes, I have pretty much decided that I will be redoing the entire topcoat and Awlgrip seems to be the paint of choice. I have seen several threads with folks asking "what color?" I assume based on my reading that my 1991 Montauk is Desert Tan. I looked at the Awlgrip paint colors online and their Desert Tan is Brown, so it does not equate to Whaler's Desert Tan.
Has anyone ever posted what the actual color is from Awlgrip to match the factory "Desert Tan?"
Also, here is a picture of the engine bracket:
http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii579/scott3294/IMG_0293_zps21b66037.jpg
Thanks
Scott
GNolan posted 01-08-2015 03:56 PM ET (US)
Hi--I would keep the adjustable jack plate. It will allow you to fine trim your engine set-up. You will gain top end and ultimately greater efficiency.
scott3294 posted 01-08-2015 05:53 PM ET (US)
Thanks GN!
rear view posted 01-08-2015 06:30 PM ET (US)
I'm in the same situation with my boat's bow eye. In fact it actually looks worse. I'm doing my restoration this winter--just posted the thread--so let me know what you decide to do.
I was thinking to use Marinetex to rebuild and fair and then just drill through to the original hole.
DeeVee posted 01-09-2015 09:46 PM ET (US)
Concerning the bracket, the mounting holes on the bracket are more than likely located to match the standard BIA bolt pattern that is already on the transom. If the bracket does not work out for you, you could remove it and mount the E-TEC directly on the transom.
That being said, I have a bracket on my Outrage 22 between the E-TEC 200 and transom. It has worked out nicely for me.
Doug Vazquez
jimh posted 01-11-2015 07:52 AM ET (US)
I have not used Marinetex. It is just a premixed resin-filler-tint pre-mixture sold in small packages, to which the user adds hardener by his own measure of the ratio.
I prefer WEST System repair kits. The resin-to-hardener ratio is pre-fixed by the packaging in small foil envelopes, so the resulting epoxy mixture always has the proper ratio of resin to hardener. You can adjust the thickness by adding filler, and tint to any color you like. The unopened foil packages have a very long shelf life.
scott3294 posted 01-12-2015 01:36 PM ET (US)
In repairing a "chunky" spot like a gnawed out bow eye, should you mix anything in with the resin...anything to make it thicker or more structurally significant? I have seen posts about fillers and cut up fiber.
Thanks
Scott
jimh posted 01-12-2015 09:12 PM ET (US)
Repairs beyond small nicks and filling small screw holes need different methods. See
Taylor Clark's excellent illustrated article:
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/whalerRepair.html
and
Boston Whaler's instructions:
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/repairInstructions.html
scott3294 posted 01-13-2015 09:18 AM ET (US)
Thanks Jim. That's what I thought. I had read Taylor's example previously and figured that was likely how I needed to approach it.
Any tips on general "field" sanding...the larger areas of the hull that are not necessarily damaged, but will be painted over? How "deep" should that sanding be...enough to remove all the gelcoat? Trying to figure out what the base should be before painting.
Things are finally moving. My plan is to disassemble the whaler over the course of the next week or so. I built a movable "sled" that the hull will rest on and keep it in my garage. This will allow me to store the hull out of the weather, but then roll it out into the driveway to sand.
The Atlanta Boat Show is later this week. I'll stop by and see if I how eager the Evinrude dealers are to negotiate!
Scott
scott3294 posted 01-13-2015 09:29 AM ET (US)
Also, I did read the BW recommendations for refurbishing (that included sanding), but curious if others had any additional recommendations for overall sanding the larger areas on the hull.
Thanks!!
Scott
rear view posted 01-14-2015 08:05 PM ET (US)
I just sanded the bottom of my 13 and it took forever. About 20 hrs of pure sanding using a random orbital sander and about 50 sanding disks. On your 17 I feel like it would be much more worth it to find someone who does media blasting.
Binkster posted 01-15-2015 12:06 PM ET (US)
Thats alot of hours to sand the bottom of a 13 footer. Did you sand off the bottom paint and leave the gelcoat? What grit paper did you use?
rich
rear view posted 01-15-2015 07:24 PM ET (US)
Mine had an resin paint and then bottom paint and then gelcoat. I sanded with 60 grit and am now doing the fairing. Once I'm done with that I will go over it again with 120.
I sanded deep into the original gelcoat but didn't go into any bare fiberglass (at least on purpose. The sander got away from me in a few spots.)
The sanding takes alot longer then you think. Even with 60 grit. You kinda have to go slow and keep the sander moving just taking a little bit at a time to make sure it nice and even.
Also with the 13 I had the ability to strip the boat down and flip it in my garage. Something I'm sure would be much harder to do on a 17.
scott3294 posted 01-16-2015 11:26 AM ET (US)
Thanks for the input. The good news is I am stripping the Montauk of everything except the bare hull...and have it in the garage (flipping is NOT easy, but doable).
Sanding the gelcoat to a smooth surface, and not all the way down to the bare glass, seems to be what I am hearing. I will then paint with Awlgrip. If anyone feels differently about the sanding, please speak up.
Thanks again for all the input...it has been extremely helpful!
Scott
rear view posted 01-16-2015 08:18 PM ET (US)
Hey Scott what made you decide to use awlgrip. I'm thinking about using interlux perfection because from my research it's easy to do a good looking job by yourself. I heard awlgrip is a better finish and more durable but had to be sprayed for good finish.
Any truth to that? Are you going to paint it yourself? Have you used it before?
scott3294 posted 01-22-2015 09:33 AM ET (US)
I just based that on reading most of the posts online extolling the virtues of Awlgrip as a product. That said, I have also read a lot of good things about Perfection and how it is great for the novice as well. I am definitely a novice, if not a complete beginner.
I still have time to decide on what I use, and have a lot of sanding left.--Scott
scott3294 posted 01-22-2015 10:06 AM ET (US)
Was able to get the boat stripped down of all hardware and wiring. Overall, I think it is in pretty good shape. As discussed there are plenty of screw holes to repair, but overall nothing terrible. I hope to get the engine off this weekend and then flip her over and start work on sanding the bottom of the hull.
Here are some of the latest pics:
http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/scott3294/library/Boat%20De-construction
I have not been too brave in looking for water intrusion or retention. I did drill two small half-inch holes in the bottom of the hull near the transom and NO water has leaked out. I put a Q-Tip into the holes and it did not come back wet. I know that is not conclusive, but it sure made me feel better.--Scott

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Author	Topic: Repairing Old Fastener Holes; Engine Bracket; Loose Bow Eye
scott3294	posted 01-05-2015 06:26 PM ET (US) I finally got the Montauk up to north Georgia this weekend and got to spend some quality time with it. I have definitely decided that I am replacing the engine. The Honda will be sold. The new year deals on the E-TEC are Very good! That said, I also want to spruce up the hull. Someone in the ownership line of this boat went screw happy--had accessories installed, and when removed, just left the screws. I really want to refinish the whole boat, and I still may, but my first concern is what to do with all these holes. Here are some pics. Also, the bow eye has really eaten away at the hull...there are pics of that too. I need to repair that. The boat has an engine bracket, and have read the reference article on here about those. Has the prevailing thinking "evolved" any as to whether these are a positive? Need to decide if I keep it when I put the new Etec on. I know my path on this boat may not be the path others would take, but I have always loved the Montauk, and now that I have one, I want it to be finished nicely. Any suggestions are always appreciated. Scott
daveb	posted 01-05-2015 08:28 PM ET (US) Use West System with 407 filler. Mix to slightly thicker than ketchup thickness. Drill the old hole sligntly larger and inject with a small syringe. Prep all noles the same way and knock them all up at once. When they puke from the fill, slap a piece of masking tape to retain the fill and keep excess from drooling down. An assistant to follow you with the tape will help tons. Let the enlarges holes dry for a bit first, aid with a hair dryer after enlarging the holes. Dig? Dave
scott3294	posted 01-05-2015 08:40 PM ET (US) Thanks Dave!! Digged! Scott
cys	posted 01-05-2015 11:16 PM ET (US) When faced with the same repairs on a Montauk I acquired this past year, I went with West System epoxy thickened with filler to repair the area around the bow eye and West System G/flex to fill screw holes. The nice thing about G/flex is that it has a long pot life, which is useful when filling numerous holes.
jimh	posted 01-06-2015 09:54 AM ET (US) Epoxy resin that has been thickened with a filler is a good choice for filling holes from old fasteners. I often have used it. I also usually tint the epoxy resin with acrylic paint pigment to improve the color match between the resin and the hull. Epoxy resin will change color over time, with a tendency to become more yellow. I believe this is caused by exposure to ultra-violet radiation in sunlight. If a more stable color match is desired, the epoxy resin will need a top-coating with polyester resin that has been tinted to match the hull color and prepared with additives that will permit the polyester resin to cure to a hard surface. There is proper concern about the application of polyester resin over epoxy resin. When epoxy resin cures, it releases a chemical to the surface that tends to act as an inhibitor for polyester resin to cure. These chemicals are called an "amine blush." The amine blush must be scrubbed off the cured epoxy. Amines are water soluble, and hot soapy water is a good solvent for removing them. Note that alcohol or other esters are not usually good solvents for anime blush. Scrub the cured epoxy with hot soapy water or other detergents. It is also recommend to post-cure the epoxy with a heat gun--not too hot--to further encourage the release of any amines. Do this before washing. Polyester resin does not cure very well in air. For repairs, a wax agent is sometimes added. The wax tends to come to the surface and form a temporary seal to keep out the air. Another method is to use un-doctored resin and apply a temporary top-coat of poly-vinyl alcohol (PVA) to the uncured resin. The PVA will also keep out air, and can be wiped away when the resin has cured. For a description of the general method, see THE EPOXY CURE http://continuouswave.com/maintenance-logs/epoxy/
scott3294	posted 01-06-2015 12:08 PM ET (US) Thanks guys! Any new thoughts on the motor bracket...keep it or go direct mount? Thanks Scott
64nauset	posted 01-06-2015 12:22 PM ET (US) Re: Polyester over epoxy One could use a non-amine resin/hardener combination to avoid that embarrassing blush. One possibility is Mas epoxy resin with the slow hardener. I've tried it. Works fine. No blush, not fuss. It's got to be the "slow" hardener though. Their fast or medium hardeners blush a bit and cured material using those two should be cleared of amine before further coating. I would imagine there are other non-blushing epoxies out there.
scott3294	posted 01-06-2015 12:42 PM ET (US) Did I correctly read in other posts about the bow eye repair that some folks are actually taking the lifting nut off, taking the long screw out of the hull, filling the entire hole (all the way through the hull) with epoxy, and then re-drilling a new hole through the epoxy for the screw? Sounds cool. I just want to make sure I read that right.
tedious	posted 01-07-2015 07:59 AM ET (US) I'll just mention that there are polyester fillers available that avoid the amine blush and subsequent adhesion problems that can occur with epoxies. Your Whaler was built with polyester resin and gelcoat, why not use something directly compatible? Tim
jimh	posted 01-07-2015 09:25 AM ET (US) If the bracket you have on the MONTAUK now is a nice bracket, and if it is nicely installed and bolted to the transom, and if it is still in good condition--the adjustment threaded rods work and the bracket can be adjusted--then I would be tempted to leave it in place and install the new E-TEC engine to it.
jimh	posted 01-07-2015 09:30 AM ET (US) If the bow eye and its long threaded rod have been loose and working to enlarge the hole in the hull and the hull surfaces, the best repair method is to remove all the hardware. Then build up the worn or damaged area of the hull where the bow eye and the eye nut will press against. Repair the hole through the hull by building up the walls. You do not have to completely fill the existing hole. Just build up the structure of the hull in the hole and surrounding area. You may only need to partially fill the hole with resin and filler, just to the point that you can re-drill the hole and have all fresh material. You weren't kidding about the prior owner having installed a lot of screws. There are so many holes to be filled it is going to be quite a project. If cosmetic appearance will be important, you probably should consider having the whole topsides re-done. You could fill and fair all the holes, then have the topside re-sprayed with a new top coat. A modern paint like AWLGRIP might be simpler than redoing the gel coat. On the other hand, there are so many hole to be repaired that, if you do it hole-by-hole, you will become an expert at that repair by the time you are done. You may be able to get excellent results with a good color-matched gel coat resin. I'd suggest you start with a few hole repairs and see what sort of results you can get.
scott3294	posted 01-07-2015 02:12 PM ET (US) Thanks Jim! Yes, I have pretty much decided that I will be redoing the entire topcoat and Awlgrip seems to be the paint of choice. I have seen several threads with folks asking "what color?" I assume based on my reading that my 1991 Montauk is Desert Tan. I looked at the Awlgrip paint colors online and their Desert Tan is Brown, so it does not equate to Whaler's Desert Tan. Has anyone ever posted what the actual color is from Awlgrip to match the factory "Desert Tan?" Also, here is a picture of the engine bracket: http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii579/scott3294/IMG_0293_zps21b66037.jpg Thanks Scott
GNolan	posted 01-08-2015 03:56 PM ET (US) Hi--I would keep the adjustable jack plate. It will allow you to fine trim your engine set-up. You will gain top end and ultimately greater efficiency.
scott3294	posted 01-08-2015 05:53 PM ET (US) Thanks GN!
rear view	posted 01-08-2015 06:30 PM ET (US) I'm in the same situation with my boat's bow eye. In fact it actually looks worse. I'm doing my restoration this winter--just posted the thread--so let me know what you decide to do. I was thinking to use Marinetex to rebuild and fair and then just drill through to the original hole.
DeeVee	posted 01-09-2015 09:46 PM ET (US) Concerning the bracket, the mounting holes on the bracket are more than likely located to match the standard BIA bolt pattern that is already on the transom. If the bracket does not work out for you, you could remove it and mount the E-TEC directly on the transom. That being said, I have a bracket on my Outrage 22 between the E-TEC 200 and transom. It has worked out nicely for me. Doug Vazquez
jimh	posted 01-11-2015 07:52 AM ET (US) I have not used Marinetex. It is just a premixed resin-filler-tint pre-mixture sold in small packages, to which the user adds hardener by his own measure of the ratio. I prefer WEST System repair kits. The resin-to-hardener ratio is pre-fixed by the packaging in small foil envelopes, so the resulting epoxy mixture always has the proper ratio of resin to hardener. You can adjust the thickness by adding filler, and tint to any color you like. The unopened foil packages have a very long shelf life.
scott3294	posted 01-12-2015 01:36 PM ET (US) In repairing a "chunky" spot like a gnawed out bow eye, should you mix anything in with the resin...anything to make it thicker or more structurally significant? I have seen posts about fillers and cut up fiber. Thanks Scott
jimh	posted 01-12-2015 09:12 PM ET (US) Repairs beyond small nicks and filling small screw holes need different methods. See Taylor Clark's excellent illustrated article: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/whalerRepair.html and Boston Whaler's instructions: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/repairInstructions.html
scott3294	posted 01-13-2015 09:18 AM ET (US) Thanks Jim. That's what I thought. I had read Taylor's example previously and figured that was likely how I needed to approach it. Any tips on general "field" sanding...the larger areas of the hull that are not necessarily damaged, but will be painted over? How "deep" should that sanding be...enough to remove all the gelcoat? Trying to figure out what the base should be before painting. Things are finally moving. My plan is to disassemble the whaler over the course of the next week or so. I built a movable "sled" that the hull will rest on and keep it in my garage. This will allow me to store the hull out of the weather, but then roll it out into the driveway to sand. The Atlanta Boat Show is later this week. I'll stop by and see if I how eager the Evinrude dealers are to negotiate! Scott
scott3294	posted 01-13-2015 09:29 AM ET (US) Also, I did read the BW recommendations for refurbishing (that included sanding), but curious if others had any additional recommendations for overall sanding the larger areas on the hull. Thanks!! Scott
rear view	posted 01-14-2015 08:05 PM ET (US) I just sanded the bottom of my 13 and it took forever. About 20 hrs of pure sanding using a random orbital sander and about 50 sanding disks. On your 17 I feel like it would be much more worth it to find someone who does media blasting.
Binkster	posted 01-15-2015 12:06 PM ET (US) Thats alot of hours to sand the bottom of a 13 footer. Did you sand off the bottom paint and leave the gelcoat? What grit paper did you use? rich
rear view	posted 01-15-2015 07:24 PM ET (US) Mine had an resin paint and then bottom paint and then gelcoat. I sanded with 60 grit and am now doing the fairing. Once I'm done with that I will go over it again with 120. I sanded deep into the original gelcoat but didn't go into any bare fiberglass (at least on purpose. The sander got away from me in a few spots.) The sanding takes alot longer then you think. Even with 60 grit. You kinda have to go slow and keep the sander moving just taking a little bit at a time to make sure it nice and even. Also with the 13 I had the ability to strip the boat down and flip it in my garage. Something I'm sure would be much harder to do on a 17.
scott3294	posted 01-16-2015 11:26 AM ET (US) Thanks for the input. The good news is I am stripping the Montauk of everything except the bare hull...and have it in the garage (flipping is NOT easy, but doable). Sanding the gelcoat to a smooth surface, and not all the way down to the bare glass, seems to be what I am hearing. I will then paint with Awlgrip. If anyone feels differently about the sanding, please speak up. Thanks again for all the input...it has been extremely helpful! Scott
rear view	posted 01-16-2015 08:18 PM ET (US) Hey Scott what made you decide to use awlgrip. I'm thinking about using interlux perfection because from my research it's easy to do a good looking job by yourself. I heard awlgrip is a better finish and more durable but had to be sprayed for good finish. Any truth to that? Are you going to paint it yourself? Have you used it before?
scott3294	posted 01-22-2015 09:33 AM ET (US) I just based that on reading most of the posts online extolling the virtues of Awlgrip as a product. That said, I have also read a lot of good things about Perfection and how it is great for the novice as well. I am definitely a novice, if not a complete beginner. I still have time to decide on what I use, and have a lot of sanding left.--Scott
scott3294	posted 01-22-2015 10:06 AM ET (US) Was able to get the boat stripped down of all hardware and wiring. Overall, I think it is in pretty good shape. As discussed there are plenty of screw holes to repair, but overall nothing terrible. I hope to get the engine off this weekend and then flip her over and start work on sanding the bottom of the hull. Here are some of the latest pics: http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/scott3294/library/Boat%20De-construction I have not been too brave in looking for water intrusion or retention. I did drill two small half-inch holes in the bottom of the hull near the transom and NO water has leaked out. I put a Q-Tip into the holes and it did not come back wet. I know that is not conclusive, but it sure made me feel better.--Scott