Console Building: Ply or Solid? - Moderated Discussion Areas

  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: Whaler Repairs/Mods
  Console Building: Ply or Solid?

search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   Console Building: Ply or Solid?

ebwalk posted 02-15-2015 12:48 PM ET (US)
Hi,
One of the contributors, Binkie, did an amazing rebuild of a 13' whaler console (Sweet 13). I am ready to rebuild mine for my 1973 13.5 and two furniture makers have told me not to do this in solid wood because it will shrink and expand on big, flat pieces, like benches and console sides and cause cracks. What comments and advice can I get on this?
I am planning a console that is a bit larger than the traditional simple one and will have several large pieces of wood making the front bench, seat back and sides and top of the console.
Thank you for your response!
Bob
deepwater posted 02-16-2015 01:19 AM ET (US)
it depends on the wood ,,,what were you looking at using
ebwalk posted 02-16-2015 07:26 AM ET (US)
probably mahogany of some type
tedious posted 02-16-2015 09:10 AM ET (US)
I would not worry about the benches. For the console itself, building out of marine ply makes sense for strength, weight, and cost reasons.
ebwalk posted 02-16-2015 09:49 AM ET (US)
Suppose I go Marine Plywood. What are the community's favorite ways of dressing the edges?
Thanks for your thoughts.
dfmcintyre posted 02-16-2015 10:54 AM ET (US)
Bob -
Here's an article saved from Soundings (the article even references this website. Pretty cool!). I don't believe they used plywood. Ply is going to be an issue with any exposed ends.
http://www.soundingsonline.com/features/type-of-boat/ 288837-a-perfect-pair
Regards - Don
tedious posted 02-16-2015 01:42 PM ET (US)
Bob, I would be inclined to design the console so the end grain of the ply butts up against solid wood. Alternatively, you could use molding to cover it. Or even leave it exposed and varnished - if you use good ply, it is reasonably attractive.
ebwalk posted 02-16-2015 02:17 PM ET (US)
Wow, great article...I probably have that same disease...'buy it for 2500, invest 13,000 in it!'
Good inspiration there. He used teak, and it seems perhaps when encapsulated in epoxy/varnish maybe it won't move. He also used a furniture maker!
Thanks Don and Tedious for the ideas. I will let you know what direction the project takes.
Bob
Jefecinco posted 02-16-2015 05:46 PM ET (US)
I believe the console on my 34 year old Sport 13 is original. It is fabricated from solid mahogany lumber. If the original has lasted for 34 years I wont question the wisdom of the Boston Whaler builders of the time over their lumber selection.
Butch
AZdave posted 02-16-2015 10:07 PM ET (US)
Jefecinco is correct. There are mahogany consoles in older boats that don't seem to have cracking or splitting problems. When I built a new console for our Sport 13 I thought I was using high quality joinery. There were still cracks in two panels within a year. Changes in temperature and exposure to water both cause dimensional changes in solid wood. Unfortunately the changes are not uniform in all dimensions. Board length changes less than width, and changes in width are influenced by the way the boards are cut. Rift or quarter sawn boards are more stable than flat sawn boards. These changes must be anticipated and included in the design and construction of solid wood furniture.
The problem is much greater in boat interiors. Hardly anyone would take fine mahogany or teak furniture out of their house to bake in the sun and soak in summer showers. But that's exactly what we expect to do to boat interiors.
Plywood panels have much less drama. They stay pretty flat and are not fussy about the joints used to assemble them into a cabinet. You will have to decide whether the appearance is acceptable. The plywood made with attractive hardwood surface veneer is usually intended for interior application. The surface veneers are miraculously thin, and may be trashed by dents and scratches. I love "Baltic" birch plywood in many applications, but can't imagine staining it to a convincing imitation of mahogany.
ebwalk posted 02-16-2015 10:17 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the feedback. If I go plywood, I will use marine ply in Mahogany. clcboats.com stocks it, and others I am sure. Thicknesses to 3/4. When I've used thin tropical ply for kayaks, it is covered with fiberglass fabric and epoxy, then varnish--incredibly tough and the cloth becomes invisible.
dfmcintyre posted 02-17-2015 01:25 PM ET (US)
Bob -
If your going to go the varnish over epoxy route, here's an article that I've linked to in other threads. It's in a downloadable PDF format:

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/varnish-over-epoxy/
Regards - Don
Binkster posted 02-18-2015 10:49 AM ET (US)
Bob, check out my last post on your other thread on this same topic. If you really want to go with plywood, find the plans to the plywood consoles that were used on the 16 foot Whalers back in the sixtys. Find an expanded plan view and check out how they were built. Actually they didn't last as long as the solid mahogany consoles fron the same era. I would only use plywood if the parts were to be more than 12 inches wide. I have never found mahagany planks wider than that locally.
BTW some of the info on this thread comes from folks that are not woodworkers or have very little experience.
rich
Jefecinco posted 02-18-2015 05:33 PM ET (US)
Rich,
That's me... no woodworker.... and of course no experience with wood. It's sorta like computers, I'm a user (barely) but far from a techie.
Butch
ebwalk posted 02-18-2015 09:58 PM ET (US)
Hi Rich!
Thanks so much for your post! Glad to hear your console has stood the test of time. I was just about to succumb to plywood, reluctantly! But now I think I will suck it up...open the wallet...and go with Sapele. I have this image of your rig in my mind and I was pretty sure it was solid wood. Can you share your finish procedure, please?
And do you still have Sweet 13? I have been doing gel coat repair on my stress cracks this winter with reasonable results that I will post after a bit more progress. Keeping me out of trouble in a rough mid-atlantic winter.
Regards,
Bob
tedious posted 02-19-2015 08:21 AM ET (US)
Bob, either ply or solid wood could be made to look very nice - it's more about the design than anything else. The traditional 13 side console is not large enough to worry about expansion, but you mentioned you're building a bigger one.
When I did a partial rebuild of my 15's side console, I wanted to keep screw holes to a minimum on the new pieces. So I put it together using L-shaped pieces of 316 stainless, screwed in from the back side. It is very solid.
The reason I mention that is that if you're worried about wood movement, you could use that type of system and put slotted holes in the metal pieces to allow the wood to expand and contract without cracking. Depending on your design, it may or may not be worth the trouble.
Tim
Binkster posted 02-19-2015 08:29 AM ET (US)
Bob,
I still have my 13 footer, and will sell it in the spring,
now that my 15 footer is finished. I never used it much, the 2008 Merc 25 has less than 50 hours on it. BTW, I removed the name from the boat shortly after those pics were taken, I thought it was a bit corny. I always use Pettit Captains varnish, thinning the first coat and applying 7 coats total. It's easy to work with and lasts a long time,
rich

Hop to:

Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.

Author	Topic: Console Building: Ply or Solid?
ebwalk	posted 02-15-2015 12:48 PM ET (US) Hi, One of the contributors, Binkie, did an amazing rebuild of a 13' whaler console (Sweet 13). I am ready to rebuild mine for my 1973 13.5 and two furniture makers have told me not to do this in solid wood because it will shrink and expand on big, flat pieces, like benches and console sides and cause cracks. What comments and advice can I get on this? I am planning a console that is a bit larger than the traditional simple one and will have several large pieces of wood making the front bench, seat back and sides and top of the console. Thank you for your response! Bob
deepwater	posted 02-16-2015 01:19 AM ET (US) it depends on the wood ,,,what were you looking at using
ebwalk	posted 02-16-2015 07:26 AM ET (US) probably mahogany of some type
tedious	posted 02-16-2015 09:10 AM ET (US) I would not worry about the benches. For the console itself, building out of marine ply makes sense for strength, weight, and cost reasons.
ebwalk	posted 02-16-2015 09:49 AM ET (US) Suppose I go Marine Plywood. What are the community's favorite ways of dressing the edges? Thanks for your thoughts.
dfmcintyre	posted 02-16-2015 10:54 AM ET (US) Bob - Here's an article saved from Soundings (the article even references this website. Pretty cool!). I don't believe they used plywood. Ply is going to be an issue with any exposed ends. http://www.soundingsonline.com/features/type-of-boat/ 288837-a-perfect-pair Regards - Don
tedious	posted 02-16-2015 01:42 PM ET (US) Bob, I would be inclined to design the console so the end grain of the ply butts up against solid wood. Alternatively, you could use molding to cover it. Or even leave it exposed and varnished - if you use good ply, it is reasonably attractive.
ebwalk	posted 02-16-2015 02:17 PM ET (US) Wow, great article...I probably have that same disease...'buy it for 2500, invest 13,000 in it!' Good inspiration there. He used teak, and it seems perhaps when encapsulated in epoxy/varnish maybe it won't move. He also used a furniture maker! Thanks Don and Tedious for the ideas. I will let you know what direction the project takes. Bob
Jefecinco	posted 02-16-2015 05:46 PM ET (US) I believe the console on my 34 year old Sport 13 is original. It is fabricated from solid mahogany lumber. If the original has lasted for 34 years I wont question the wisdom of the Boston Whaler builders of the time over their lumber selection. Butch
AZdave	posted 02-16-2015 10:07 PM ET (US) Jefecinco is correct. There are mahogany consoles in older boats that don't seem to have cracking or splitting problems. When I built a new console for our Sport 13 I thought I was using high quality joinery. There were still cracks in two panels within a year. Changes in temperature and exposure to water both cause dimensional changes in solid wood. Unfortunately the changes are not uniform in all dimensions. Board length changes less than width, and changes in width are influenced by the way the boards are cut. Rift or quarter sawn boards are more stable than flat sawn boards. These changes must be anticipated and included in the design and construction of solid wood furniture. The problem is much greater in boat interiors. Hardly anyone would take fine mahogany or teak furniture out of their house to bake in the sun and soak in summer showers. But that's exactly what we expect to do to boat interiors. Plywood panels have much less drama. They stay pretty flat and are not fussy about the joints used to assemble them into a cabinet. You will have to decide whether the appearance is acceptable. The plywood made with attractive hardwood surface veneer is usually intended for interior application. The surface veneers are miraculously thin, and may be trashed by dents and scratches. I love "Baltic" birch plywood in many applications, but can't imagine staining it to a convincing imitation of mahogany.
ebwalk	posted 02-16-2015 10:17 PM ET (US) Thanks for the feedback. If I go plywood, I will use marine ply in Mahogany. clcboats.com stocks it, and others I am sure. Thicknesses to 3/4. When I've used thin tropical ply for kayaks, it is covered with fiberglass fabric and epoxy, then varnish--incredibly tough and the cloth becomes invisible.
dfmcintyre	posted 02-17-2015 01:25 PM ET (US) Bob - If your going to go the varnish over epoxy route, here's an article that I've linked to in other threads. It's in a downloadable PDF format: http://www.westsystem.com/ss/varnish-over-epoxy/ Regards - Don
Binkster	posted 02-18-2015 10:49 AM ET (US) Bob, check out my last post on your other thread on this same topic. If you really want to go with plywood, find the plans to the plywood consoles that were used on the 16 foot Whalers back in the sixtys. Find an expanded plan view and check out how they were built. Actually they didn't last as long as the solid mahogany consoles fron the same era. I would only use plywood if the parts were to be more than 12 inches wide. I have never found mahagany planks wider than that locally. BTW some of the info on this thread comes from folks that are not woodworkers or have very little experience. rich
Jefecinco	posted 02-18-2015 05:33 PM ET (US) Rich, That's me... no woodworker.... and of course no experience with wood. It's sorta like computers, I'm a user (barely) but far from a techie. Butch
ebwalk	posted 02-18-2015 09:58 PM ET (US) Hi Rich! Thanks so much for your post! Glad to hear your console has stood the test of time. I was just about to succumb to plywood, reluctantly! But now I think I will suck it up...open the wallet...and go with Sapele. I have this image of your rig in my mind and I was pretty sure it was solid wood. Can you share your finish procedure, please? And do you still have Sweet 13? I have been doing gel coat repair on my stress cracks this winter with reasonable results that I will post after a bit more progress. Keeping me out of trouble in a rough mid-atlantic winter. Regards, Bob
tedious	posted 02-19-2015 08:21 AM ET (US) Bob, either ply or solid wood could be made to look very nice - it's more about the design than anything else. The traditional 13 side console is not large enough to worry about expansion, but you mentioned you're building a bigger one. When I did a partial rebuild of my 15's side console, I wanted to keep screw holes to a minimum on the new pieces. So I put it together using L-shaped pieces of 316 stainless, screwed in from the back side. It is very solid. The reason I mention that is that if you're worried about wood movement, you could use that type of system and put slotted holes in the metal pieces to allow the wood to expand and contract without cracking. Depending on your design, it may or may not be worth the trouble. Tim
Binkster	posted 02-19-2015 08:29 AM ET (US) Bob, I still have my 13 footer, and will sell it in the spring, now that my 15 footer is finished. I never used it much, the 2008 Merc 25 has less than 50 hours on it. BTW, I removed the name from the boat shortly after those pics were taken, I thought it was a bit corny. I always use Pettit Captains varnish, thinning the first coat and applying 7 coats total. It's easy to work with and lasts a long time, rich