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Author Topic:   Delamination From Compressed Air Forced Into Unibond Hull, Bad Epoxy
mtown posted 02-28-2015 11:31 AM ET (US)   Profile for mtown   Send Email to mtown  
I have a major delamination on a 1964 16-foot Boston Whaler. About 10-square-feet of the bottom and side are ripped off. I want to re-foam and the re-glass the area

I have this contribution to the subject of wet foam: my boat is 51-years-old, and I bought it about 30 years ago. At that time it had been used and abused with some sketchy looking repairs to several areas. I continued to use it hard and take only basic care of the hull, repairing gouges with simple resin and cloth patches. When I decided to re-power three years ago the dealer that sold me the motor refused to mount it as they said the transom looked suspect. I got the stripped boat and after removing all hardware and console ground all the bottom paint and alligator-looking gelcoat down to good gel or glass.

My plan was to fair the hull with epoxy resin and then epoxy a layer of this cloth on the bottom. Fairing went fine and then two times the epoxy on top of the cloth failed to harden. Ten hours each time with acetone and a floor scraper. I am sure I did not really get all the bad epoxy off but thought the new layer (different brand) would adhere. I put three coats of epoxy barrier coat on the top and then flipped the hull.

I added woven roving and epoxy to splash well to satisfy the motor people. Then decided to paint interior with Interlux Perfection. First I wanted to fill holes in deck and sides so I took a tapered air fitting attached to my compressor and blew into each hole to clear moisture--bad idea. The compressed air caused separation of the glass skin and the foam. I could hear it happen. [The hull] still sounded the same when tapped so I let some resin drip in the holes and kept going. Within three months of re-splashing the boat, parts of the epoxy and cloth were starting to peel at the bow area. I could remove letter-sized pieces with a putty knife. Two years passed with no real problems until the major de-lam mentioned above. I am sure the cause was the peeling cloth at the area where the water hits the hull caught water like a scoop and the force caused the cloth and epoxy to overcome the bond of the original hull to the foam inside. This happened two miles from home in a coastal bay with three of us on board. We circled back and picked up pieces, some 2-feet by 4-feet and rode in with no problem.

About the foam: even after all this the foam was bone dry, as it has been anywhere I ever drilled a hole in this boat. The foam is yellowish in color. My plan now is to pour new foam, create a template from the non de-laminated side of the keel to recreate the hull shape, and then re-glass the damaged area and grind the other side to get back to below the bad repair.

The boat has lived on a trailer or a lift since I've had it, so those who keep in the water may have other [repairs or problems or concerns].

Any advice that doesn't involve [taking the boat to a] dump is appreciated.

Buckda posted 03-01-2015 12:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Well, let me start by saying that without seeing the failed repair and the condition of the boat in person, it is difficult for anyone to give you good advice on what might have gone wrong with your previous repair or how best to repair it now. The underlying condition of the old foam and many other factors are at play in such a major repair.

The fact that you had two unsuccessful epoxy pours tells me that either you're doing something wrong or that there is a contaminant or environmental factor at work that needs to be addressed. It could also be moisture in the hull. Whaler foam will feel dry to the touch but can still have moisture.

I think you need to consider the value of time and materials (mostly time) in your evaluation about whether to keep or scrap this hull. The 16'7" hulls can be had for short money. The only justification to spending big dollars on a repair is if the boat has sentimental value to you or if you want the intrinsic value of the experience in making the repair yourself.

If you want to move forward, please post photos to a photo hosting site like dropbox or photobucket so we can take a look and try to help.

Binkster posted 03-01-2015 08:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster  Send Email to Binkster     
A few times over the years someone, always a new member, will start a thread that says his old Whaler, usually a 13 or 16 footer has suffered a major delamination where they state that large pieces of the outer hull has peeled away from the inner foam hull. This may or may not be possible. but no one has ever posted any pics of the damage. Until someone does I'll just discount this thread as a prank.
Mybe this guy has some incriminating pictures. If so I stand corrected.

rich

Nantucket Sleighride posted 03-01-2015 11:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for Nantucket Sleighride  Send Email to Nantucket Sleighride     
Blinkster--you asked for photographs of a Boston Whaler that had delaminated. I have emailed three photographs to you that should help to convince you that it is not only a possibility it is a serious matter when left unattended .

A good friend asked if I would inspect a Montauk 17 that had been rode hard and put-out very wet. It was a rental boat that remained in the water at all times. The boat was rented for the day and on the return trip to the harbor had actually started to dramatically come apart. This all stemmed from a poorly done fiberglass repair on the underside of the boat near the bow. Once that fiberglass patch opened up it behaved like an inverted air scoop. When underway the water pressure was separating the outer fiberglass skin from the foam like a relentless chisel.

The water passed between the fiberglass and foam all the way to the stern of the boat and then forced it's under the transom and up through the deck. This compromised all of the foam in the Port side of the Montauk. The problem was not detected until the water broke through the deck and started spraying up threw large cracks like a high pressure fire hydrant. The two people that rented the Montauk left a trail of foam chunks across the Santa Barbara channel and returned to the dock in shambles but still afloat.

After inspecting the damage to the hull I advised my friend that this 17' Montauk would make an excellent planter or children's sandbox, but it would never return to its past life as a boat rental.--Bill

jimh posted 03-01-2015 11:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
quote:
...two times the epoxy...failed to harden...

Poor cure of epoxy might be from mixing the resin and hardener in the wrong ratio. You must have the stoichiometry correct to get a strong and properly cured outcome. You are creating a chemical reaction where two reagents combine to make a new compound. It's not like adding catalyst to a reaction already underway to just increase the speed. If the reagents are not in the correct proportion, there will be a portion of one reagent that is not used in the reaction. This left over reagent then contaminates the desired compound being created.

Epoxy must be used at the proper temperature range to get the cure time to conform to the specified duration.

mtown posted 03-02-2015 09:07 AM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
I assure you I am not kidding. I will try to post pictures but I only have a few right now and I do not currently have any account on a picture host site. The epoxy failure was in my opinion the resin itself as it was in excellent weather conditions. I am sure that the mix [3:1] was done accurately especially the second time!
The failure was my fault not the boat construction. The scoop theory is exactly what happened in my opinion.
The boat is currently at a place where I cannot even get to it, as the repair place is owned by a guy with major health issues and is unable to unlock the building where it sits. When I get it back to repair myself, I will take many pictures. If anyone wants to contact me, feel free. Don't know if this site has pm feature, but I am on other Whaler site with same name.
Yes I am going to fix the boat, pourable foam and resin have been purchased.
My plan is to use low-vis epoxy to inject/pour in the areas where the glass is partially separated from the foam and apply pressure for the epoxy to set, then pour foam on bottom, allow to expand, and try to cut it to the original shape. Then lay cloth embedded in epoxy, fair with thickened epoxy and then barrier coat.
Binkster posted 03-02-2015 12:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster  Send Email to Binkster     
I stand corrected. A member has sent me by email pics of another Whaler with bottom delamination. mtown I don't think your methods will work. Personally I wouldn't bother, but if I did I would turn the boat over and with a sharp chisel I would srip off any loose or damaged outer skin, let the boat dry out in a heated place for an undermined amount of time, patch in new foam where it it rotted or missing and laminate a new hull over the foam using polyester resin. and when you decide nto sell the boat, inform the interested buy of your repair.

rich

mtown posted 03-02-2015 06:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
The boat is flipped over and the foam is powder dry as have all areas I have ever drilled into. The failure was my poor repair the first time not wet foam. My plan is to use pourable expanding foam. I am using epoxy instead of poly resin because of the much stronger secondary bond and the fact it is waterproof.The epoxy I am using now has been 100% dependable in setting up properly. I was hoping someone that had done this might chime in. I have no plans to sell ever, I already own an identical 1966 hull that was rigged as a Currituck. If I were to sell one it would be that one, but I have no plans to do so.
mtown posted 03-03-2015 07:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
The foam in my boat is or was [NOT] wet.
dg22 posted 03-03-2015 02:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for dg22  Send Email to dg22     
Delamination [can be] caused from forcing compressed air into hull. I think this point may have been missed in the first post as it was further down in the fourth paragraph.

I've read about other's using compressed air to remove water from the hull. I would be very cautious after reading this post.

mtown posted 03-03-2015 05:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
Yes the compressed air was part of my error. The other was the bad batches of epoxy.
dfmcintyre posted 03-03-2015 05:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for dfmcintyre  Send Email to dfmcintyre     
I'm curious, what sort of grinding bevel ratio are you creating around the hole?

Regards - Don

mtown posted 03-04-2015 07:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
Don--I am not even close to that point yet. When I am able to show pictures you will understand why. I have a couple and will try to e-mail them to you.
dg22 posted 03-04-2015 09:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for dg22  Send Email to dg22     
I'm not an expert on closed cell foam but I would make sure the type of foam that you use will adhere to both the existing foam and also to the fiberglass resin/mat that you will be using for the new skin. Personally, I would stick to the same type of foam that was used originally to ensure a good bond. All the best with your project.
mtown posted 03-04-2015 06:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
The pourable foam is what many Whaler owners have used, and I have viewed their repair pages many times, just not exactly what I am doing. The foam in many forms, poured and sprayed is very sticky and will generally adhere to damn near anything. I have a warehouse with it on a metal roof deck, we sprayed a new 2" layer a couple years ago, and believe me you don't want it on anything but where it belongs. In that application it needs UV protection or it will break down.
mtown posted 03-05-2015 07:25 AM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
[Perhaps in reply to private comments, mtown writes] I have never thought of "sealing" the existing foam before adding the new foam. The big [concern] is to not have a cold joint between the old and new I guess. As far as beveling the existing glass and gel to receive the repair, I am planning to grind the entire area where I added the cloth before. That is the entire wetted bottom and up the sides almost to the gunnel. I want to rid the hull of all the bad or possibly bad epoxy that is at the heart of the failure. This should grind off now that it has been years. Before, it was like trying to grind chewing gum. Please chime in with any thoughts. I will reply when I am able to get better pics and I have the boat back.
jimh posted 03-08-2015 08:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
[Combined two threads on same topic. This thread remains open for comments.]
jimh posted 03-08-2015 11:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
When a resin forms a bond with another material that has already transitioned from a liquid resin into a cured solid state, that bond is called a secondary bond. A primary bond occurs when a resin bonds with another resin that has not yet cured completely, and the two cure together.

Polyester resins do not form secondary bonds that are as strong as the secondary bonds of epoxy resins. When a laminated hull is being laid up, a new layer of polyester resin laminates is usually added before the previous layer has cured, and in that way the polyester resin forms a primary bond with the underlying layer. When the laminate has been completely built up, the resins all cure together.

Epoxy resins are generally better adhesives than polyester resins, and can form good secondary bonds to previously cured laminates. Epoxy has demonstrated outstanding properties as an adhesive resin in making repairs to boat hulls laminated with polyester resins. Epoxy resins have been used in those applications for 45-years and have a consistent history of good results.

I have used epoxy resin formulated by WEST SYSTEMS to make repairs to my Boston Whaler boat hull, and I have never seen any results with poor cures or poor adhesion. On the basis of the 45-year history of WEST SYSTEMS epoxy and on my own experience, I have no reservations about using epoxy resin to make repairs to a Boston Whaler boat hull.

I recommend you listen to the two-part recorded interview with Jim Watson of WEST SYSTEMS that I conducted fifteen years ago. The interview goes into the specifics of using epoxy to repair Boston Whaler boats. It can be found in the listing of several similar interviews at

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/radio/

mtown posted 03-10-2015 04:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
I am definitely planning to use epoxy for the exact reasons you describe. My earlier response (which was to a private e-mail) was regarding the suggestion that I seal the existing foam prior to adding new foam.
I think you are correct that it will not be necessary as I am using epoxy. I like West products, and my " bad batches were not West". It was a brand sold locally to me and I had used a gallon of it for various repairs on a different boat with no problems. When I used it as described on the Whaler it resulted in no hardening 2 times. Conditions were perfect and I was not only careful but obsessive about the ratio (especially the second time), and I got the bad result both times. Needless to say I am not using it again.
The resin I am using has been great (again on other non Whaler projects). I built a small wood canoe and it has 6 layers of epoxy on it, each set fine.
Again I will post pictures when I can access the boat.
Thanks
Scot
jimh posted 03-11-2015 04:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Scot--Did you listen to the recorded interview?
mtown posted 04-15-2015 04:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
My 1964 16-footer is still not available to me to fix as the owner of the place that was going to repair is still dealing with health issues. I am not able to post pics here as I do not have a site where I store them. Pictures are on my phone so I can forward to anyone that wants to call, or e-mail me.
jimh posted 04-16-2015 07:48 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Scot--Did you listen to the recorded interview?
mtown posted 05-12-2015 04:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
Jimh,
I did not listen to the West interview as it wanted to have me download stuff on my computer.
The update is as follows:
I got the boat back about 2 weeks ago as the guy I had hired to repair it has health issues. The only work they did was to saw a part of the port side about 6' long and right at the water line loose from the boat. I got this and the other piece from the port rear/side and bottom back.

Flipped the hull and started to asses what to do. Two members of this site have many pics of the condition of the hull and the progress through yesterday. If they care to share tat is fine. Thanks for the great help so far.

I did some basic prep and used the 2 part foam to re-create the shape of the bottom as best I could. Using plastic bags and thin plywood bent from good hull points I was able to allow compression of the foam and waste almost none of it to over expansion.

Then I used a knife to trim to foam to a more exact shape and put on my first layer of epoxy resin to seal and harden the foam.

At this point I have re-attached the torn off piece at the rear/side and also re-attached the piece cut off by the other repair guy. I am confident in their structural integrity. I am at the point where I have faired the initial laminations I added and tomorrow hope to apply a possibly final layer of cloth and resin.

Lots will remain to be done after that. I will be happy to share pics for anyone interested. I do not have a place to store them.

I will say again that I am a huge Whaler fan and my posting this is only meant to help another owner.
Thanks to the 2 members who have been so helpful.

jimh posted 05-12-2015 11:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Scott says he has not listened to the recorded interveiw:

quote:
I did not listen to the West interview as it wanted to have me download stuff on my computer.

The interview is a recording in MP3 format. There is nothing about the file containing the recording that has any interest or is designed in any way to cause the computer of someone listening to the file contents to initiate the installation of any software on their computer. Most modern web browsers can play audio in MP3 format without any special help. You are missing a great recorded interview. When that interview was recorded over 15-years ago, there was practically nothing like it available on the internet. I found that one of the problems with trying to present audio recordings 15-years ago was the average guy did not possess a computer that could play audio recordings. Now, 15-years later, I see that it is still possible for a person to have trouble playing an audio recording from the internet.

Scott--you should give some consideration to getting a more modern browser. For example, the CHROME browser. As far as I can tell, the CHROME browser will play the MP3 files without any added components.

Again, for some good advice about making repairs with epoxy, I recommend you listen to the interview.

mtown posted 05-28-2015 05:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
Well I am getting close to paint on the bottom and sides where the damage and separation occurred. I was able to use 2 part foam and created a series of thin plywood pieces that would bend to the shape of the bottom to keep the foam where I wanted it and increase its density.

The plywood was forced downward by wood braces to the roof of my carport. I also used a plastic trash bag to keep the foam from sticking to the plywood.

The foam was coated with epoxy resin and then ground to shape. I then used 6 oz cloth in pre-cut pieces and did 3 layers of that set in epoxy.

Just yesterday I started with an epoxy fairing compound [wet/dry 700] from progressive epoxy. I am on the third coat and it is a very easy 1:1 product to work with.

I have drilled about 30 1/2" holes through the bottom and poured and injected a low viscosity epoxy in them until it finds it's way out. This has re-bonded any foam to existing glass. I have spent a lot of time sounding with a hammer to assure no hollow spots.

My boat was no beauty when I bought her almost 30 years ago and she will not be when I am done, but I probably have $500 in material and will spend another $100 on Interlux 2000E epoxy barrier coat.

Labor total time I would guess less than 50 hrs.

mtown posted 06-10-2015 06:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
Well I am fairing the bottom now with a Kevlar reinforced epoxy 700 wet/dry. It is amazing in how easy it is to work with and pull to a fine edge. Tough to sand the small grooves but with 80 grit is not all that bad. I think I will paint with Interlux 2000 within the next few days. I have bought it already and used it before.
To the two members that helped me; thank you so much.

My boat will be nothing more than she ever was, but functional for many more years.

JLimb posted 06-13-2015 08:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for JLimb  Send Email to JLimb     
I had an area of de lamination on my 1992 Whaler 23walkaround. Previous owner hit something and covered with epoxy and bottom paint. The repair eventually failed. I had Onset Marine do the repair which was an area of about five feet in length and six feet wide. They first put heat lamps around the hull and then did a vacuum process to remove any water.when the hull dried out they removed any damaged foam and replaced it. Then they reglassed the area. I have had no further issues in the two years since the repair was done.
jimh posted 06-14-2015 10:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
JLIMB--thanks for your report of successful repair of your Boston Whaler boat hull. The shop probably did not use compressed air causing delimitation. They probably mixed the resin in the proper ratio. They got good results.

Epoxy is an excellent material for making repairs to a laminated fiberglass resin boat. Epoxy is a stronger adhesive than the usual polyester resins used when laminating the boat in its original construction. Epoxy is very water resistant. It is a superior repair resin.

I have never had any problems with the epoxy resin failing to cure. I use WEST System epoxy. For small repairs I use the small foil packets. The packets have the proper ratio of ingredients, so the resulting resin is always good for a complete and strong cure. For larger areas I use the WEST System metering pumps. They dispense the resins and hardener in the proper ratio. WEST System epoxy is a good product to use for repair of Boston Whaler Unbond hulls.

There may be alternative products to WEST System epoxy, but, considering the convenience of the packaging, the extremely wide distribution and availability of the product, and the generally modest amount of resin that will be used, I do not see any compelling reason to choose another brand.

I have made many minor repairs to holes in my Boston Whaler boat that are below the water line. I have ever experienced any problems with the repaired areas coming loose. All the repairs I have made with epoxy have shown no sign of any problems, even after many years.

Epoxy resin does have one drawback: its color tends to yellow when exposed to ultra-violet light (from sunlight). This problem is not particularly significant for repairs made below the waterline, particularly on boats which have anti-fouling bottom paint.

Again, for a very informative interview with Jim Watson, see

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/radio/

I highly recommend listening to the interview. Jim Watson has decades of experience in making repairs to Boston Whaler boats using WEST System epoxy. You can certainly benefit from his knowledge.

dfmcintyre posted 06-15-2015 05:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for dfmcintyre  Send Email to dfmcintyre     
I was talking to the guy that did the renovation work (dozens of holes from earlier owners mounting equipment, replace rotted transom, and paint) on my 21' Outrage. He mentioned the biggest failure point with inexperienced individuals repairing fiberglass hulls is not grinding back far enough from the initial hole or fracture. Which turned into jobs for him.

West System recommends a minimum 12 to 1 bevel angle in order to achieve the best bond between the old fiberglass and new. I recall reading somewhere that in the aircraft industry, the recommended angle was in the neighborhood of 50:1. That's a lot of grinding!

Regards - Don

Binkster posted 06-15-2015 12:44 PM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster  Send Email to Binkster     
[What Don says in the immediately prior posting] is true. The reason for this is polyester resin and even epoxy will not permantly bond to gelcoat.--rich
jimh posted 06-15-2015 02:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Rich--I never thought for a moment that Don would post something untrue.

Gel coat resin is usually only applied to a thickness of 0.020-inch, and most of it will be ground away when making a repair. Gel coat resin is extremely well bonded to the polyester resin of a laminated boat hull. I have never heard of any instance in which gel coat resin delaminated or unbonds with the polyester resin of adjacent layers in a laminated boat hull.

Epoxy is pleased to adhere to most everything, including gel coat resin, except certain materials with unusual atomic structures. Apparently all the epoxy in my boat has not been talking to Rich, because it is maintaining its bond with gel coat very well. I follow the direction for use of WEST System epoxy in making repairs as described in their very well written and very inexpensive epoxy repair manual, and the outcomes have all been excellent. I cannot concur with Rich's annoucement that epoxy cannot bond to gel coat resin.

mtown posted 07-23-2015 08:26 PM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
I am only days from splashing my repaired hull. It is still not beautiful, but I am very satisfied that it will endure the use and abuse for another long while. It has only taken about 30 days to do the hull stuff, but I decided to attend to lots of little things while it was home.

Several members have seen the repairs from start to finish and if you care to see I have lots of pictures. It was definitely worth it to me and satisfying.

Binkster posted 07-24-2015 11:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster  Send Email to Binkster     
I haven't followed this thread to its conclusion but I just want to comment on jimh's statement, "I cannot concur with Rich's annoucement that epoxy cannot bond to gel coat resin.". Of course epoxy will bond to gel coat when you use is as paint, but when you lay up mat or glass cloth over gel coat you are asking for trouble. Just as Don's comment states, that the guy that repaired his boat says he mentioned (the biggest failure point with inexperienced individuals repairing fiberglass hulls is not grinding back far enough from the initial hole or fracture. Which turned into jobs for him.). I would use epoxy when laminating over foam due to its better adhesion to foam, but polyester resin will work as well when laminating over plywood or building up mat over holes or adding mat to stenghten a fiberglass structure.

rich

ebwalk posted 07-25-2015 05:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for ebwalk  Send Email to ebwalk     
Andy Miller has a [16-minute-long] video of a pretty rigorous experiment showing epoxy binding (or not) to gel coat.

http://boatworkstoday.com/archives/1680

Binkster posted 07-26-2015 07:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for Binkster  Send Email to Binkster     
I read the article. It concludes that gel coat will bond to epoxy. Well everyone knows that. The question in this thread is whether epoxy or polyester resin will bond to old gelcoat. From my experience I would say as far as epoxy goes it's chancey. Polyester resin as far as I've seen will fail. Better to grind the gelcoat back so your repair can and will bond to the fiberglass hull which is laid up with polyester resin.

rich

mtown posted 08-12-2015 05:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for mtown  Send Email to mtown     
Boat was splashed a week ago and all went well. Not a real test as it will take years to judge the repair. I did trailer it 150 miles and inspected the bearing points from the trailer. They show no indentations.
jimh posted 08-16-2015 08:48 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I don't really want to spend over 16-minutes watching the video presentation that is suggested above in order to find out if the presenter has any conclusion about the ability of epoxy to form a bond to a polyester resin. Can someone who watched the 16-minutes pass on the time in the 16-minute video where you can see the results?
jimh posted 08-16-2015 08:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
By the way, here is a warning: if you want to watch the video, you may have to install some software on your computer that allows you to see it. I mention this because Scott refused to listen to the WEST System presentation I recorded because his computer needed to install some software in order to hear it. You may have to install some software to see the video. Also the video nags you with overlays of advertisements. This may be an annoyance that Scott and others won't tolerate.

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