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Author Topic:   17' Montauk Repower (4-stroke?)

Wild Turkey posted 01-04-2001 10:51 PM ET (US)
Great website.... I am the owner of a 1989 17' footer w/ 1989 Envinrude 90HP. The engine has performed many years of service but I am looking to repower. I really like the Honda 4-stroke 90HP. I am a little concerned about weight (373 lbs.), but the 89 90HP might weight about that now. Does anybody have experience with this motor/boat combo? Any info would be great!!
Dick posted 01-04-2001 11:00 PM ET (US)
I run a 50 hp Mercury 4 stroke on my 99 Montauk. With 2 people I run in the mid 30s and am very happy with the performance. If you want to go to the larger HP I don't see any problem with the weight. Have run one with a Merc 70 4 stroke and it was great, the 90 should be awsome.
Dick
Wild Turkey posted 01-04-2001 11:10 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the reply... I don't really care about flat out top end performance, just increased range and reliabilty. Maybe I need to consider a lower HP like you ($$$$). Just checked the Honda website... 75HP weights 373lbs. (same as 90HP). I wonder about price difference? Also, I had not considered Mercury 4-strokes.
FISHNFF posted 01-04-2001 11:40 PM ET (US)
I have just repowered my 1998 commercial hull with a Mercury 90 4-stroke (replaced a 75 2-stroke). I just added a Doel-Fin and am experimenting with props. I went with the 90 because of the same weight as the 75. You can always pull the throttles back and probably actually save fuel. I believe the Honda(75&90), Yamaha(80&100), and Merc(75&90) 4-strokes have much in common and are very comparable. I got mine hung for $6595 minus prop, controls, and guages. Still breaking it in on the same tank of gas! Love the instant starts, smooth idle, no smoke, pleasant smooth sound, and miserly gas consumption. I have another friend running a 90 Merc and 5 others running 70's (Suzuki/Evinrude). The 70 's(S/E) are better on fuel and are smoother and quieter. A few miss the speed (4 ran 90's) but all are more than willing to give it up for the benefits. You can find Suzuki's for around $6K, plus they are offering a 6 year warranty. I like Merc's, and I did consider the Suzuki 90($7195), but I can get my Merc services anywhere. Plus I love the gloss black!
Easy E posted 01-04-2001 11:48 PM ET (US)
If i had 17' whaler to repower i would go with a Yamaha 50hp 4-stroke.Basically because of the superb reliabilty and power. Just to compair the 50hp(935cc) yamaha 4-stroke(233lbs) to a Johnson 70hp(920cc) 2-stroke(250lbs), the yamaha has a bigger engine(more power) and still weighs less plus alot better fuel economy than the 2-stroke.As far as mercury engines I have heard good things about the newer ones but i have had bad reliabilty experences in the past with them.Well thats my opinon.-Easy E
dgp posted 01-05-2001 09:12 AM ET (US)
WT, if you open the "Show Topics" drop down menu to the "past year" you'll find a whole lot of facts and opinions on this subject. Don
triblet posted 01-05-2001 10:59 AM ET (US)
Ease E, just because it's got more CCs
doesn't mean it's got more power. A
two-stroke gets a power on every revolution,
a four-stroke gets power every other
revolution. That's why two-strokes have
been popular in boats and motorcycles for
a long time.
The two-stroke, on the other hand, doesn't
use each power stroke as efficiently as
a four-stroke, which is why they get worse
gas milage and are dirtier.
Chuck
stagalv posted 01-05-2001 02:19 PM ET (US)
Hey WildTurkey, I am in the same boat as you (no pun intended). I have been pricing engines lately for my montauk and am trying to decide what to do. I was able to contact some local (Houston) dealers which have some new engines from previous years. Here is what I found:
98 Honda 90 w/prop $6620
99 Evin 90 (Ficht) no prop $6299
00 Evin 90 " " " $6995
00 Johnson 115 no prop $5995
99 Evin 115 (Ficht) no prop $6795
00 Yamaha 90 premix no prop $5834
00 Yamaha 115 premix no prop $6854
99 Honda 90 no prop $6871
01 Suzuki 90 6yr warranty $7100
01 Suzuki 115 6yr warranty $7500
These are the initial prices i.e. I have not bargained with them yet and certainly hope to get a few hundred dollars off of whatever I choose. I (and the boat) really dont need the 115hp but I thought I would price them anyway. The OMC's scare me because of all of the Chapter 11 issues going on (even though I wouldn't mind a Ficht). With Suzuki I am not sold on the reliability issue yet but man thats a great warranty period if there is a service site nearby. I really think I am leaning toward the Honda 90. The weight shouldn't be too much of a concern. I believe with the correct prop and a decent load the boat will still to 40mph or so. One benefit I really like about the 4stroke is that I dont have to mess with mounting the oil tank in the exposed deck area or under the console.
Opinions? Would you have a problem buying a 2 or 3 year old "new" outboard as long as you still get the warranty. Anybody know of prices etc.. on the Yamaha 100 4stroke? Rex
compounder posted 01-05-2001 03:44 PM ET (US)
Rex,I spent nearly a year agonizing over re-powering my Montauk, looking at many of the same engines you are. Lot's of factors to consider and my choice may not be exactly what you need. I ended up with a "new" leftover 1999 Yamaha C-90 2-stroke. Final total cost was about $5450 including ss prop,controls,installation & taxes. The dealer also sold my tired old Evinrude for me for $1000. It's only been installed for a couple of months now, but I'm extremely happy with my choice---very powerful,smooth everywhere but idle, and seems that it will be much more economical to run than the old V-4. The Honda 90 is way too heavy for a Montauk IMO. There is one down the creek from me and the boat sits way low in the stern. As with most manufacturers, Honda is very conservative with the published weight figures, and a recent magazine article stated that the weight was considerably higher than the published figure. Can't remember exactly,but I believe wet weight exceeded 500#!!! Published weight on the C-90 Yamaha is 256# and we weighed mine in the shipping carton at 278#. I tried to sell myself on the supposed advantages of the 4-strokes, but the high weight and high prices drove me away. The numbers I have seen published for fuel consumption, especially at WOT, are not that much higher than those for two-strokes so I don't think you can depend on making up the difference in purchase price by saving money on fuel.
Anyway, good luck on making your choice!
Joe
stagalv posted 01-05-2001 05:31 PM ET (US)
Thanks Joe, I will certainly keep that in mind. Something I failed to mention is that I am mounting twin batteries under my console. That will also reduce weight in the stern which may compensate some for the heavy 4 stroke. What to do? Man it's a big decision!!! Rex
andygere posted 01-05-2001 10:02 PM ET (US)
Chuck is right about using displacement to compare 2 and 4 stroke motors. It's apples and oranges. 4 strokes are cleaner because the air/fuel charge for each cycle is injected when the exhaust valves are completely closed. This is not the case with 2 strokes and it contributes to their dirty reputation (unburnt fuel mix goes out in the exhaust) and to some degree, their inefficiency. I knew that thermodynamics class would be good for something one day.....
Easy E posted 01-06-2001 12:27 AM ET (US)
Triblet,
Thanks for the 2-stroke/4-stroke lession.I knew 4-strokes fire on every other turn but i forgot that means less power.I guess thats why a 50hp 4-strokes is bigger and heavier than a 50hp 2-stroke.Learn somethin new everyday-Easy E
whalernut posted 01-06-2001 12:34 AM ET (US)
Guys, Mercury has a new 60h.p. 4-stroke out and it weighs less than their 50h.p. 4-stroke by about 20lbs. I guess they get this weight reduction by boreing the head out a little more on the 50h.p. engine thus less mettle, but more power due to bigger pistons? This engine seems like the ultimate engine for an average all around use motor. I think it weighs in the neighborhood of around 230lbs. I think this engine would be great for cruiseing and trolling for fish, and great for the lighter pre-77` `16- `17 hulls(500lbs.) My 73` `16 Currituck keeps nagging me for one(he-he!), but my pocketbook isn`t even close. My 1975 85h.p. Johnson is still breathing for now, when it stops I`ll have to make the same big desicians you guys are makeing right now. Also, maybee the Suzuki/Evinrude 70h.p. 4-stroke runs so smooth is the fuel injection, maybee the other companies will follow suit? Regards-Jack Graner.
whalernut posted 01-06-2001 12:36 AM ET (US)
Guys, Mercury has a new 60h.p. 4-stroke out and it weighs less than their 50h.p. 4-stroke by about 20lbs. I guess they get this weight reduction by boreing the head out a little more on the 50h.p. engine thus less mettle, but more power due to bigger pistons? This engine seems like the ultimate engine for an average all around use motor. I think it weighs in the neighborhood of around 230lbs. I think this engine would be great for cruiseing and trolling for fish, and great for the lighter pre-77` `16- `17 hulls(500lbs.) My 73` `16 Currituck keeps nagging me for one(he-he!), but my pocketbook isn`t even close. My 1975 85h.p. Johnson is still breathing for now, when it stops I`ll have to make the same big desicians you guys are makeing right now. Also, maybee the Suzuki/Evinrude 70h.p. 4-stroke runs so smooth is the fuel injection, maybee the other companies will follow suit? Regards-Jack Graner.
stagalv posted 01-06-2001 05:34 PM ET (US)
Well here is what I ended up doing as far as repowering my Montauk. As stated above I have been looking for a while. I came across a listing on ebay for a 2001 115 Evinrude Ficht. I know, I know... many of you are thinking thats too much engine for a Montauk and others are thinking of the OMC problems. Well I feel that there will be someone out there to make warranty repairs on Johnson & Evinrude products after this Ch.11 issue is resolved. As far as the engine size I realize that 115 is more than the boat is rated but nobody says you have to run around at wide open throttle all of the time + the engine weighs the same as a 90 Evinrude Ficht (362lbs). If a 90 Ficht was available I probably would have bought it. I had a hard time deciding on 4 stroke or 2 stroke. After talking to many I believe the fuel injected 2 stroke is the way to go for now when considering power, efficiency, weight, reliability and enviromental issues. I certainly think 4 stroke are the future but for now the fuel injected 2 stroke is the best option. I paid $5900 for the engine only + I wil have to pay about $225 shipping and about $140 for a local shop to recive the motor and mount it. I am going to rig controls, prop etc myself. I called a local Evinrude dealer and he told me my price on a 2001 115 Ficht would be $8048 so I feel that I made a great deal. Rex
dgp posted 01-07-2001 07:44 AM ET (US)
Jack, I don't know where you're getting the Mercury 4 stroke specs but according to their web site the 60HP and 50HP have the same displacement and weigh the same. I'd bet the only difference is carbs or even as simple as jetting. Don
whalernut posted 01-07-2001 08:21 AM ET (US)
Don, you`re right, I was looking at the old specs from and article from 2000. Also, the 50h.p. and 60h.p. engines acctually look different from the cowling to the lower unit. The 60h.p. looks more sleek, acctually it looks like the 60h.p. 2-stroke with 4-stroke badges, go figure. Regards-Jack Graner.
masbama posted 01-08-2001 01:39 PM ET (US)
The 90hp 4 strokes are too heavy for a Montauk unless you are in a deepr river or lake that won't kick up. I think a 90hp two stroke is the best bet for this boat. The Yam is light and proven as well as the Merc or Johnson. You can buy a Yam w/out oil injection and you don't have to hook up the Johnsons. OMC is unstable-I'd wait a month or two to see what happens. Something will-there is too much money to be made.
If you check the boards; no one has anything but good to say about the Yam C90.

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Author	Topic: 17' Montauk Repower (4-stroke?)
Wild Turkey	posted 01-04-2001 10:51 PM ET (US) Great website.... I am the owner of a 1989 17' footer w/ 1989 Envinrude 90HP. The engine has performed many years of service but I am looking to repower. I really like the Honda 4-stroke 90HP. I am a little concerned about weight (373 lbs.), but the 89 90HP might weight about that now. Does anybody have experience with this motor/boat combo? Any info would be great!!
Dick	posted 01-04-2001 11:00 PM ET (US) I run a 50 hp Mercury 4 stroke on my 99 Montauk. With 2 people I run in the mid 30s and am very happy with the performance. If you want to go to the larger HP I don't see any problem with the weight. Have run one with a Merc 70 4 stroke and it was great, the 90 should be awsome. Dick
Wild Turkey	posted 01-04-2001 11:10 PM ET (US) Thanks for the reply... I don't really care about flat out top end performance, just increased range and reliabilty. Maybe I need to consider a lower HP like you ($$$$). Just checked the Honda website... 75HP weights 373lbs. (same as 90HP). I wonder about price difference? Also, I had not considered Mercury 4-strokes.
FISHNFF	posted 01-04-2001 11:40 PM ET (US) I have just repowered my 1998 commercial hull with a Mercury 90 4-stroke (replaced a 75 2-stroke). I just added a Doel-Fin and am experimenting with props. I went with the 90 because of the same weight as the 75. You can always pull the throttles back and probably actually save fuel. I believe the Honda(75&90), Yamaha(80&100), and Merc(75&90) 4-strokes have much in common and are very comparable. I got mine hung for $6595 minus prop, controls, and guages. Still breaking it in on the same tank of gas! Love the instant starts, smooth idle, no smoke, pleasant smooth sound, and miserly gas consumption. I have another friend running a 90 Merc and 5 others running 70's (Suzuki/Evinrude). The 70 's(S/E) are better on fuel and are smoother and quieter. A few miss the speed (4 ran 90's) but all are more than willing to give it up for the benefits. You can find Suzuki's for around $6K, plus they are offering a 6 year warranty. I like Merc's, and I did consider the Suzuki 90($7195), but I can get my Merc services anywhere. Plus I love the gloss black!
Easy E	posted 01-04-2001 11:48 PM ET (US) If i had 17' whaler to repower i would go with a Yamaha 50hp 4-stroke.Basically because of the superb reliabilty and power. Just to compair the 50hp(935cc) yamaha 4-stroke(233lbs) to a Johnson 70hp(920cc) 2-stroke(250lbs), the yamaha has a bigger engine(more power) and still weighs less plus alot better fuel economy than the 2-stroke.As far as mercury engines I have heard good things about the newer ones but i have had bad reliabilty experences in the past with them.Well thats my opinon.-Easy E
dgp	posted 01-05-2001 09:12 AM ET (US) WT, if you open the "Show Topics" drop down menu to the "past year" you'll find a whole lot of facts and opinions on this subject. Don
triblet	posted 01-05-2001 10:59 AM ET (US) Ease E, just because it's got more CCs doesn't mean it's got more power. A two-stroke gets a power on every revolution, a four-stroke gets power every other revolution. That's why two-strokes have been popular in boats and motorcycles for a long time. The two-stroke, on the other hand, doesn't use each power stroke as efficiently as a four-stroke, which is why they get worse gas milage and are dirtier. Chuck
stagalv	posted 01-05-2001 02:19 PM ET (US) Hey WildTurkey, I am in the same boat as you (no pun intended). I have been pricing engines lately for my montauk and am trying to decide what to do. I was able to contact some local (Houston) dealers which have some new engines from previous years. Here is what I found: 98 Honda 90 w/prop $6620 99 Evin 90 (Ficht) no prop $6299 00 Evin 90 " " " $6995 00 Johnson 115 no prop $5995 99 Evin 115 (Ficht) no prop $6795 00 Yamaha 90 premix no prop $5834 00 Yamaha 115 premix no prop $6854 99 Honda 90 no prop $6871 01 Suzuki 90 6yr warranty $7100 01 Suzuki 115 6yr warranty $7500 These are the initial prices i.e. I have not bargained with them yet and certainly hope to get a few hundred dollars off of whatever I choose. I (and the boat) really dont need the 115hp but I thought I would price them anyway. The OMC's scare me because of all of the Chapter 11 issues going on (even though I wouldn't mind a Ficht). With Suzuki I am not sold on the reliability issue yet but man thats a great warranty period if there is a service site nearby. I really think I am leaning toward the Honda 90. The weight shouldn't be too much of a concern. I believe with the correct prop and a decent load the boat will still to 40mph or so. One benefit I really like about the 4stroke is that I dont have to mess with mounting the oil tank in the exposed deck area or under the console. Opinions? Would you have a problem buying a 2 or 3 year old "new" outboard as long as you still get the warranty. Anybody know of prices etc.. on the Yamaha 100 4stroke? Rex
compounder	posted 01-05-2001 03:44 PM ET (US) Rex,I spent nearly a year agonizing over re-powering my Montauk, looking at many of the same engines you are. Lot's of factors to consider and my choice may not be exactly what you need. I ended up with a "new" leftover 1999 Yamaha C-90 2-stroke. Final total cost was about $5450 including ss prop,controls,installation & taxes. The dealer also sold my tired old Evinrude for me for $1000. It's only been installed for a couple of months now, but I'm extremely happy with my choice---very powerful,smooth everywhere but idle, and seems that it will be much more economical to run than the old V-4. The Honda 90 is way too heavy for a Montauk IMO. There is one down the creek from me and the boat sits way low in the stern. As with most manufacturers, Honda is very conservative with the published weight figures, and a recent magazine article stated that the weight was considerably higher than the published figure. Can't remember exactly,but I believe wet weight exceeded 500#!!! Published weight on the C-90 Yamaha is 256# and we weighed mine in the shipping carton at 278#. I tried to sell myself on the supposed advantages of the 4-strokes, but the high weight and high prices drove me away. The numbers I have seen published for fuel consumption, especially at WOT, are not that much higher than those for two-strokes so I don't think you can depend on making up the difference in purchase price by saving money on fuel. Anyway, good luck on making your choice! Joe
stagalv	posted 01-05-2001 05:31 PM ET (US) Thanks Joe, I will certainly keep that in mind. Something I failed to mention is that I am mounting twin batteries under my console. That will also reduce weight in the stern which may compensate some for the heavy 4 stroke. What to do? Man it's a big decision!!! Rex
andygere	posted 01-05-2001 10:02 PM ET (US) Chuck is right about using displacement to compare 2 and 4 stroke motors. It's apples and oranges. 4 strokes are cleaner because the air/fuel charge for each cycle is injected when the exhaust valves are completely closed. This is not the case with 2 strokes and it contributes to their dirty reputation (unburnt fuel mix goes out in the exhaust) and to some degree, their inefficiency. I knew that thermodynamics class would be good for something one day.....
Easy E	posted 01-06-2001 12:27 AM ET (US) Triblet, Thanks for the 2-stroke/4-stroke lession.I knew 4-strokes fire on every other turn but i forgot that means less power.I guess thats why a 50hp 4-strokes is bigger and heavier than a 50hp 2-stroke.Learn somethin new everyday-Easy E
whalernut	posted 01-06-2001 12:34 AM ET (US) Guys, Mercury has a new 60h.p. 4-stroke out and it weighs less than their 50h.p. 4-stroke by about 20lbs. I guess they get this weight reduction by boreing the head out a little more on the 50h.p. engine thus less mettle, but more power due to bigger pistons? This engine seems like the ultimate engine for an average all around use motor. I think it weighs in the neighborhood of around 230lbs. I think this engine would be great for cruiseing and trolling for fish, and great for the lighter pre-77` `16- `17 hulls(500lbs.) My 73` `16 Currituck keeps nagging me for one(he-he!), but my pocketbook isn`t even close. My 1975 85h.p. Johnson is still breathing for now, when it stops I`ll have to make the same big desicians you guys are makeing right now. Also, maybee the Suzuki/Evinrude 70h.p. 4-stroke runs so smooth is the fuel injection, maybee the other companies will follow suit? Regards-Jack Graner.
whalernut	posted 01-06-2001 12:36 AM ET (US) Guys, Mercury has a new 60h.p. 4-stroke out and it weighs less than their 50h.p. 4-stroke by about 20lbs. I guess they get this weight reduction by boreing the head out a little more on the 50h.p. engine thus less mettle, but more power due to bigger pistons? This engine seems like the ultimate engine for an average all around use motor. I think it weighs in the neighborhood of around 230lbs. I think this engine would be great for cruiseing and trolling for fish, and great for the lighter pre-77` `16- `17 hulls(500lbs.) My 73` `16 Currituck keeps nagging me for one(he-he!), but my pocketbook isn`t even close. My 1975 85h.p. Johnson is still breathing for now, when it stops I`ll have to make the same big desicians you guys are makeing right now. Also, maybee the Suzuki/Evinrude 70h.p. 4-stroke runs so smooth is the fuel injection, maybee the other companies will follow suit? Regards-Jack Graner.
stagalv	posted 01-06-2001 05:34 PM ET (US) Well here is what I ended up doing as far as repowering my Montauk. As stated above I have been looking for a while. I came across a listing on ebay for a 2001 115 Evinrude Ficht. I know, I know... many of you are thinking thats too much engine for a Montauk and others are thinking of the OMC problems. Well I feel that there will be someone out there to make warranty repairs on Johnson & Evinrude products after this Ch.11 issue is resolved. As far as the engine size I realize that 115 is more than the boat is rated but nobody says you have to run around at wide open throttle all of the time + the engine weighs the same as a 90 Evinrude Ficht (362lbs). If a 90 Ficht was available I probably would have bought it. I had a hard time deciding on 4 stroke or 2 stroke. After talking to many I believe the fuel injected 2 stroke is the way to go for now when considering power, efficiency, weight, reliability and enviromental issues. I certainly think 4 stroke are the future but for now the fuel injected 2 stroke is the best option. I paid $5900 for the engine only + I wil have to pay about $225 shipping and about $140 for a local shop to recive the motor and mount it. I am going to rig controls, prop etc myself. I called a local Evinrude dealer and he told me my price on a 2001 115 Ficht would be $8048 so I feel that I made a great deal. Rex
dgp	posted 01-07-2001 07:44 AM ET (US) Jack, I don't know where you're getting the Mercury 4 stroke specs but according to their web site the 60HP and 50HP have the same displacement and weigh the same. I'd bet the only difference is carbs or even as simple as jetting. Don
whalernut	posted 01-07-2001 08:21 AM ET (US) Don, you`re right, I was looking at the old specs from and article from 2000. Also, the 50h.p. and 60h.p. engines acctually look different from the cowling to the lower unit. The 60h.p. looks more sleek, acctually it looks like the 60h.p. 2-stroke with 4-stroke badges, go figure. Regards-Jack Graner.
masbama	posted 01-08-2001 01:39 PM ET (US) The 90hp 4 strokes are too heavy for a Montauk unless you are in a deepr river or lake that won't kick up. I think a 90hp two stroke is the best bet for this boat. The Yam is light and proven as well as the Merc or Johnson. You can buy a Yam w/out oil injection and you don't have to hook up the Johnsons. OMC is unstable-I'd wait a month or two to see what happens. Something will-there is too much money to be made. If you check the boards; no one has anything but good to say about the Yam C90.