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Author Topic:   Repowering 15 Sport with an Evinrude E-Tec
Mike Brantley posted 01-22-2004 01:25 PM ET (US)   Profile for Mike Brantley   Send Email to Mike Brantley  
As I have mentioned in a couple of threads touching on the subject of the new Evinrude E-Tec technology, I am very seriously entertaining the notion of repowering my 1982 15 Sport with a 50hp or possibly a 60hp E-Tec motor. Right now, I am only slightly behind schedule in saving up the necessary cash -- so this could happen next month and not this month as originally hoped. (Got $4,000 stashed aside now -- need more $$$.)

The boat has a tired old 1982 Johnson 50 on it now, and that motor runs well when it runs but has left me stranded more than once. I'm tired of throwing hundred dollar bills at repairing it, so I am retiring it. It won't start now and hasn't run since September.

Weight is an issue on my boat, and both the 50 and 60 E-Tecs are supposed to be 235 pounds. I hope she'll carry that weight OK. I think so, because I've been toting around a 30-pound kicker on my transom as well as the old Johnson (insurance for when the Johnson wouldn't start!).

I'm thinking about ordering the motor from Ed's Marine Superstore ( http://www.edsmarinesuperstore.com ) based on price and what I gather is a reasonably good reputation. But I will also see what the local dealers can do for me, too. Ed's quoted me $4,699 for the 50hp and $5,199 for the 60hp. Since it's the same weight, I would probably go for the 60hp version for the extra $500. Do these prices seem fair? Ed's wants $350 for shipping, which is high but perhaps offset by the price of the motor.

What doesn't seem so fair is the price Ed's wants for controls and cables. I forget exactly, but I think it's $800 or more for that. So I won't be getting those from Ed's. Does anyone know exactly what I should buy and from where for a side-mounted control box? My local mechanic can provide the cables. He can probably get the proper control box, too, but I want to make sure I know what I need and possibly order it at the same time I order the engine.

My existing controls apparently are rigged in some way and probably not suitable. I'm told I have a new-style OMC control box that has somehow been jury-rigged to work with an old-style OMC motor. I purchased this setup used a little more than a year ago. Sounds like I should start over with new stuff, and my control cables are way too long anyway. What I don't know is whether the new Evinrude E-Tecs use standard OMC controls or something different. I already have a Teleflex tachometer installed in my console, and I'm hoping I can use that with the new motor.

Thanks for any advice, and I'm sorry for the length of the post. Too many details?

Other options.... Ed's has the old-style Johnson 2-stroke for $3,299 in the 50hp variety. That'd be the cheap way of getting back onto the water, but I'm wanting the advantages of some of the modern technology. Four-stroke choices are in the running, too, but cost and weight are real considerations for me.

By the way, I will keep this boat forever -- even if I eventually get a bigger boat to park next to it. The new motor will be with me a long time.

scaleplane posted 01-22-2004 01:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for scaleplane  Send Email to scaleplane     
Mike,

This past summer I installed a new Johnson 40 two-stroke on my 1976 15' Sport. I traded in the old '76 Mercury 500 due to the same reasons you're talking about. I paid my local Johnson dealer $4,200 for motor, installation and controls - they took the Merc in trade. The Evinrude E-tech wasn't available yet and I didn't want to wait.

The Johnson 40 is light, easy on gas, and runs out a little over 30 mph by GPS with a nice hole shot. It is only a two-cylinder, so idle is a little rougher than a multi-cylinder motor. I like it very much. The 50 HP model would have been just right.

You can see pictures of my Sea Princess as a recent post on the WhalerForum.com Braggin Board.

Mike Brantley posted 01-23-2004 02:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Thanks for the input and for pointing me to the pictures of your boat. She's a beauty. Your seats look very comfortable! I raised my rear thwart seat and had cushions made for more comfort, but there's no back support on my boat -- except for the person who gets to sit on my front thwart with his or her back to my console. (The console came from a Carolina Skiff dealer.) Pictures of my boat are online at http://www.super8filmmaking.com/Whaler_Rendezvous/Rendezvous.html . It's the 15-boot boat on the beach next to all those 17-foot boats!

You tempt me to just go ahead and order the 2-stroke Johnson 50 and not put any more money than necessary into this repowering project. But I think I will try to hold out a little longer to get the E-Tec engine.

I'm glad to hear you are getting adequate performance from your new 40hp motor. My old 50 seemed barely up to the task sometimes, but I am a substantially sized person and often put a big load on the boat with passengers, gear and food. Hopefully, part of the problem was that my old motor was just tired from all its years of service. A new 50 might be perfect for me, but I am more than intrigued with the fact that an E-Tec 60 weighs the same as the 50 (and the 40, for that matter).

Anybody have any wisdom on buying controls from a source other than Ed's? If not, I'll try to research this better myself and report back.

Wild Turkey posted 01-23-2004 04:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for Wild Turkey  Send Email to Wild Turkey     
Mike:

How have you been?
I love the idea of the E-TEC 60 HP for your boat. I do recall Ed's Marine being "pricey" on the controls and cables though (shipping too!!)

I do not know if your existing controls will be compatable with the new E-TEC motors, my guess is probably not.

Mike Brantley posted 01-27-2004 12:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Thanks, Chris, for the encouragement. I've been too busy the last few days to do any follow-up on answering my own rigging questions. I'll post back to this thread when I do get it figured out. (On an unrelated matter, I want to get another look at your Montauk. I recall from our rendezvous last year that you have a neat bilge pump drain to the engine well installation, and I'm trying to clean up the "presentation" of all the stuff in my stern area. Right now, my bilge drain is a hose over the transom, and my old engine control cables are WAY too long.)

Meanwhile, the February 2004 issue of Trailer Boats magazine arrived in my mailbox yesterday, and it includes a review of the E-Tec. The engine that was tested was a new Evinrude 90 on the transom of a Aquasport 175 Osprey. In his article, Jim Barron states that he thought that boat, which is rated for 120 horses, would be underpowered with just a 90. Nevertheless, wide-open throttle (5400 rpm) pushed that particular hull with a moderate load to 38.9 miles per hour. Acceleration from 0 to 30 mph was achieved in 6.9 seconds. He tested the boat-motor combination with a 15-inch-pitch, stainless three-blade prop.

Mostly the article sums up what I've read before in some of the other articles mentioned on the forum. However, there are some new points. Bombardier has been touting how these engines can be started without a battery, but the reviewer points out this starting method is probably best left for emergencies.

Barron writes: "With a 7.00:1 compression ratio, I found rope starting to be difficult. Stranded 10 miles up the lake with no help in sight, I could get the E-Tec started, but it would be a struggle. On the other hand, if the outboard doesn't start with a flick of the key at the dock, I'm not going out until it is fixed."

Then again, he was testing the 90hp outboard. The smaller ones are probably easier to start manually. I'm hoping to leave my emergency starting battery at home to lighten the amount of gear I carry on my little boat. One battery will be enough if I know I can pull-start the engine without one in a pinch.

Barron also praises the "husky" lower-unit components, which he reports have been adapted from Evinrude's bigger engines. The 40, 50 and 60hp versions "have a considerable amount of gear reduction (2.67:1) that allows them to turn large-diameter, high-pitch props."

He suggests this setup can allow heavy loads to be carried by boats that are marginally powered, yet still maintain a decent running speed. I wonder what prop I'll settle on??? (A discussion for another thread.)

This sounds like my engine technology of choice. I'm trying to hang tight just a little longer and not cave in to my occasionally strong urge to just order a 2-stroke Johnson 50 ($3,299 from Ed's) and put all the change in the bank as seed money for my dream boat (the classic Outrage 18 everybody has been buzzing about on here the last few weeks!). But I know I'm going to keep the classic 15 forever, no matter what additional craft will form my eventual fleet, so I might as well put the best motor on there I can afford.

Mike Brantley posted 02-02-2004 01:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Here's an update on the Ed's Marine Superstore pricing on the two motors I am considering (50hp and 60hp Evinrude E-tec).

First, they don't have the 60hp in stock as of today, but they have the 50hp on hand. Also, the prices have gone up by $100 since I got my last quote. The 50 is now $4,799 and the 60 is $5,299.

Here's the part I don't like: It turns out these prices are without the extended warranty advertised by Bombardier. For these prices, you get the standard three-year warranty -- not bad but not as good as the seven-year deal. To get to seven years, add $4 per horsepower to the cost. So, for the 50hp, that's another $200. Not a bad deal, but that still adds some more to the bottom line, which already just grew by $100.

Now Ed's wants $750 for controls -- which is lower than what said they wanted before. That's cheaper by $50 or $100 than the last quote (can't remember which), but probably still costly enough that I would go elsewhere for the controls. That has been my plan all along. But here's the new wrinkle that leaves another sour taste in my mouth: The "controls" includes the aluminum prop. So the real cheap price on the motor above does not include a prop. No biggie, I guess, since I already have two aluminum props for my old Johnson, and I assume they will fit the new motor. (I'll probably get a nice stainless prop eventually anyway). But.... this further erodes the value of the prices quoted for the motor.

The controls package for $750 includes sidemount shift and throttle control, cables, aluminum prop, engine harness and system check. (Not sure if that last item is some sort of gauge or a wire or what... forgot to ask.) The sales associate I spoke with did tell me that the newest OMC/Bombardier controls will work with this engine, so at least I know now that there isn't anything special about E-Tec controls. I ought to be able to get this stuff elsewhere for less expense. I guess what I'm looking for is the sidemount control box and the wiring harness. My mechanic can come up the cables.

The Mobile Boat Show is this weekend, and I will show up with my notebook to get prices on these motors (and other makes too, while I'm there) from the local dealers. I'll have the cash in hand for this project by next week, unless some unforseen circumstance arises, so I'm getting ready to order something from somebody.

Peter posted 02-02-2004 09:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Mike, propellers are usually not included with motors that are 40 HP and up. I'm not certain you will be able to use your existing propellers from your 50 because the gearcase is different (2.67:1 versus 2.41:1).

I don't know how much Bombardier controls, cables, wiring harness and propeller but here's what I'm guessing the costs for all of the necessary rigging would look like for a Yamaha new from Yamaha

Controls $385
Cables $ 70
Harness $100?
Propeller $120
Tachometer $166

Total $841

So the $750 for all of the necessary new rigging items to use the E-TEC is probably not off the mark.

The low price that Ed's is charging must be after the rebate is applied, in which case you don't get the extended warranty.

All-in-all, it doesn't sound like Ed's price on the controls is unreasonable.


lhg posted 02-02-2004 10:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Peter, I think you're right. With Yamaha rigging prices like you've indicated, Mercury is going to have a hard time accusing Yamaha of dumping and selling below cost!

Seriously, as another example, for Mercuy 50Hp rigging, the control, key switch and cables for a 15' Whaler would be about $350. A top of the line Teleflex domed tach would be about $80, with standard models being less. Props can be selected out of any number of boating catalogs, as can shift/throttle cables.

Peter posted 02-03-2004 07:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Larry, I'm sure Mike can shop around, perhaps on E-bay, for the pieces get them a bit cheaper but I think that he's going to find that most dealers are in the same ballpark as Ed's if he want's all new, unused stuff. Because he may be buying only that from a dealer, he's probably not going to get much of a price break. Even in your Mercury example, you're talking at least $500 to become fully operational.

A teleflex tachometer is likely to work just fine with the E-TEC but I think he will still want the System Check gauge so buying a Bombardier tachometer with all of that built in may be more desirable as it will take up less dash space. The tachometer that I listed in my example has an oil level gauge built into it which I figured was probably similar in price to the tachometer with System Check feature.

First Thought posted 02-03-2004 09:25 AM ET (US)     Profile for First Thought  Send Email to First Thought     
Hi Mike:
You will be really happier with a 60 on the back end of Sweet Cheryl. It will make a huge difference when you are loaded up and cruising Orange Beach. The reserve oomph is really good to have when you need to dodge that afternoon thunder boomer,or need a burger at Pirate's Cove, or just have an extra friend or two on board. If you haven't already done it check RoughWater Marine over in Gautier, they are usually at the Boat Show, sometimes they have some pretty good prices.
flawton posted 02-03-2004 10:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for flawton  Send Email to flawton     
Im looking at an add for my engine dealer in SE GA (Large Volume)and they are adverizing the 60 hp E-tec for $5,199, sounds like eds is right with the pack.

They are also advertising the 90 hp Yamaha 2-stroke for $5,299.

Go ahead and spend the extra $100 and put the 90 on that 15', the engine it is begging for.

Mike Brantley posted 02-03-2004 11:13 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Thanks for the all the input, guys. I guess I was making a big ol' erroneous assumption about propellers coming standard with motors in this horsepower range. Hopefully I'm not coming off as a cheapskate, but there is a very hardfast cap on the amount of money I can spend on this repowering project. I'm very fortunate (read: got spousal approval) to be able to stretch the budget far enough to buy this new technology rather than going with a tried-and-true (and very inexpensive) 50hp Johnson 2-stroke. I was thinking I would be able to stretch a little more to get the 60hp version of the E-Tec, since it is the same weight as the 50hp. But the closer I get to the zero-hour, the quicker it's becoming apparant that the complete cost of the package and rigging may not allow that.

I've been walking around the house with a mad look in my eyes the last couple of days, looking for something to sell on eBay to put me in 60hp land. (My wife for some reason won't let me sell anything that's hers, and I hate to part with stuff!) We've got some home improvement stuff ongoing, so the stack of cash I have piled up for the boat motor needs to get spent on the boat motor this month, or it will start disappearing on me. :( We had to buy a new (used) car last month when the old one got smashed, and that sure wasn't in the plans. (As an aside, the Grand Cherokee we found a good deal on has a whopping 6,500 pound towing capacity, so I've got something to pull my next Whaler!)

Buddy, are you going to the boat show this week? We'd love to see you guys and anybody else from the local Whaler fleet. I'm going to be shopping hard at the show to find out what the local dealers can do for me. I'd love it if one of them would be willing to sell me an eninge in a box at a good price. I have a great mechanic that I trust very much who can hang this thing on the boat for me, and he said it'd be a $120 job (charging me for just two hours of labor) if I provide all the rigging stuff. (Got to figure out how long my control cables need to be. The old ones I'm sure are too long, as they make a very big loop.) Anyway, I've certainly thrown a lot of hundred-dollar bills at him over the past year, keeping my old Johnson running. He's always been fair and fast.

Peter and Larry, I already have a $60 Teleflex tachometer (flat, no dome) installed in my console. Hopefully, I can use it. I made a terrible, terrible mistake when I put that thing in. It didn't want to stay in place, so I squirted some 5200 (thought it was a tube of 4200!!!) around its perimeter on the inside of my console. It's going to be hell getting that thing out if I need to. (I know -- that was dumb.)

Flawton, what's the name of that dealer in Georgia? No way will I overpower this hull with a 90. I want to keep some small amount of the boat in the water when I'm running.

flawton posted 02-03-2004 01:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for flawton  Send Email to flawton     
Custom Marine, Statesboro, GA 800-342-7235, I think the guy I dealt with was named Frank Franklin.

I was just looking at my invoice from my 90 hp yamaha repower (last year) and the costs for all of your rigging does not suprise me. I had a total sot of $1,182 for binnicle, cables, key switch, wiring harness, SS prop. teleflex hour meter, and a yamaha tach (basically everything except the steering). I would imagine the almost $400 higher than eds is my binnicle, ss prop (they arent giving those things away nowadays), and the Yamaha tach.

I admire those that shop around and get it alot cheaper. Yea I may have paid some extra $$$$$$ for my rig but these guys did an excellent job and I have been super happy with it (I too plan on keep this rig for a long long time so the extra cost isnt that big of a deal).

Sarcasm doesn't translate into text well, I wouldnt want to put a 90 on a 15 either. I saw a thread here recently where someone did it and was getting low to mid 50s WOT speeds. Crazy if you ask me.

need the extra $$$$, sell the wife, hahahahahaha. there goes that sarcasm again.

Good luck with it.

lhg posted 02-03-2004 02:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for lhg    
Regarding a 60 HP engine, one of our respected contributors, who really knows his 15' Whalers, has been raving about a new Merc 60 2-stroke that he recently purchased. Says it's a hot, and very quiet, almost smokeless performer. More cubes and alternator output than a Yamaha 70. These cost about $4000., and are a great deal if you're looking for 60 HP. Might be worth considering.
First Thought posted 02-03-2004 03:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for First Thought  Send Email to First Thought     
Mike:
I plan to go just not sure if it will be Saturday or Sunday.
Your mechanic should be able to tell you what length control cables you need. Your right about props not being included on those motors. Check the prop repair places here in town, often they have reconditioned props at some big time savings. I've used Britt's and Gulf Marine in the past to get mine reconditioned and both of them were good, if I was looking for another wheel I would check them out for sure.
Buckda posted 02-03-2004 07:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
I know you're sold on the E-Tec, but I really do recommend more HP on that hull - max it out! Go with the tried and true 2-stroke engines...they're easy (read:cheap) to work on, and you know exactly what you get - plus, they're more affordable than ever with the new 4 strokes hitting the market. Resale is not an issue since you plan to keep the boat indefinitely.

The thing that has me concerned for you is that you stated you're a big guy and often load your boat down - I'm a little guy and really load my boat with gear, and the 70 HP Evinrude I have on the back is perfect - performs well even with a heavy load of three guys, camping gear, full cooler and 3 days worth of firewood...we hit 35 MPH trying to outrun a rain squall this fall after a weekend of camping. Three guys (550 LBS) 12-gallons of fuel, camp gear for three guys, including tent and general toolbox and extra firewood...all sopping wet.

If you won't stretch for the 70 - go with the 60...you won't regret scratching up the extra dough.

Dave

Mike Brantley posted 02-03-2004 09:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Guys, thanks for all the encouragement. Sorry I missed the sarcasm above on the 90hp recommendation. I thought you wanted me to put warp drive on this little boat! Dave, I've got that crazed look again, wondering through the house looking for something to sell for the extra scratch to go 60hp E-Tec.

Yeah, I'm a big guy, so I am attracted to the notion of more horsepower. On my existing configuration, my top speed has been 29 mph at wide-open throttle. I keep reading about people getting better top end with the same power as me, but I'm heavy, I carry a lot of gasoline and I have no idea if I've had the proper propeller.

To be very honest, my biggest pain in the behind regarding boating hasn't been horsepower. It has been reliability -- or the lack thereof from having a 20-year-old motor with questionable history. I've been nervous every time I started it, and on too many occasions it did not start.

Tell y'all what, at the boat show this weekend I will talk to everybody representing every 50 to 70hp engine on the market and get prices and data for all. But I really do like everything I've read about the new Evinrude engines. (Granted, I haven't actually seen one in the flesh.)

Mike Brantley posted 02-04-2004 11:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Flawton, thanks for the information about Custom Marine in Georgia. I spoke with Frank Franlkin and Brad this morning, and I like what I heard. Here is their pricing:

Evinrude E-Tec 50hp ... $4,699
Evinrude E-Tec 60hp ... $5,199

Thatís back to the original quote from Edís before the price hike. Thatís with the $4 a horsepower rebate already applied, so add back in $200 or $240 for the extended warranty beyond the standard three years.

The prices Custom gave me for the rigging gear is better than Edís. Hereís the breakdown:

Sidemount control box ... $207.95
Wiring harness ... $82
Tach with system check ... $159

My mechanic would supply control cables of the appropriate length, so all I need to come up with is the correct length for the wiring harness. No big deal there. I didnít price a propeller, but Iím guessing $80 or so for an aluminum wheel. Maybe more or less. Iíd buy that right away and then use it as a spare when I upgrade to a stainless steel wheel.

A new piece of information from Brad: I have to have the Evinrude tach with system check. He said the motor wonít even start without it. First Iíve heard that, but probably I want the system check gauge anyway. He also said these motors are ďdifferentĒ from any other motor and that not just anybody can hang one on the boat. He said I need someone with the correct computer hookup to basically make sure the settings from the factory are correct. His estimate is $400 to $450 to rig my boat, although he would have to see the boat first.

Yeah, well, Iím not going to do that. He basically said the computer settings are supposed to be set correctly at the factory and that he would just be checking them to make sure they are properly set. At any rate, heís got no problem shipping me the engine in a box. He just wanted me to hear that warning up front. I didnít get an exact shipping charge, but Brad said the $350 charge by Edís was something heís sure he could beat. So Iím figuring a $300 freight charge as a worst-case scenario.

He can get me a 50hp E-Tec in a week or so. The 60hp motors are backordered and could take a good bit longer. He advised me to call back to get a better idea of how long.

Iím still going to the boat show this week to compare and contrast what I can get from closer to home (where the sales taxes are oh so high).

Peter posted 02-04-2004 01:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Mike,

There is an adjustment for oil consumption rate for the grade of oil used that should be checked. The oil consumption rate can be reduced significantly if you use the XD-100 oil (highest grade). One would assume that these motors should come from the factory pre-set with the assumption that the customer will opt for the lowest grade of oil and therefore maximum oil consumption rate. But you know what they say about "assume".

If the consumption rate is set at the factory with the assumption that XD-100 oil is going to be used and you don't use XD-100 oil, the motor can be damaged due to improper lubrication. I'm not sure what the consequences are, if any, if you use XD-100 and a high oil consumption rate. I think the consumption rate setting is computer controlled so it is likely that it can only be checked with Bombardier software. So, before you fire it up, you probably want to make sure you've got the right oil consumption setting for the type of oil you are going to use.


Mike Brantley posted 02-04-2004 01:09 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Peter, I've read that, too. Perhaps a query on my part directed at Bombardier is in order. I have no preference at this point which way that setting is set, but I do absolutely want to know which way it is set. A mistake could be catastrophic, no?

What I read in one of the articles about these motors was that the default setting from the factory is to use standard oil and that a change via software to use the new Evinrude oil is done at the dealer level upon installation. I will have to make sure that is correct before hooking this up and operating it "blind."

Great point.

Bigshot posted 02-04-2004 03:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
$159 for a sytems check tach? I paid $59 or $69 for mine. Call 941-758-3552, they sell Bombardier ones. You can also run your old tach and a systems check gauge along with your old wiring harness. Controls and cables should be the same as well.

With my 70hp Evinrude 4 stroke I could have run all the old OMC equipment with about $100 for a Wiring harness adapter and a Systems check gauge....unfortunatly I had a Yamaha and had to buy it all new. I got the OMC binacle mount with alarms and key for $225(not $450), the wiring harness for $60(close to $82) and the sytems check tach w/built in gauge was $59 or 69(save $100). With my hour meter($29) & new cables etc it was about $450 for it all. Call Marine surplus and see what they can ship you.

Buckda posted 02-04-2004 04:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for Buckda  Send Email to Buckda     
Also figure about $120 for a quality aluminum prop. Consider the Michigan Wheel XHS system - uses a standardized hub so you can easily switch from aluminum (when you're working shallow or rocky bottom water) to stainless when you decide to upgrade. I paid $115 total for this system for my Evinrude 70...and that was at somewhat inflated West Marine prices with King Richard's (Daley) sales tax to boot. You should be able to get it for a little under $100 - then figure more like $225 when it comes time to upgrade to stainless steel, but you won't have to buy a new hub (about $15).
Mike Brantley posted 02-08-2004 02:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Hereís what I at least find to be a very surprising fact about the boat show: Most of the dealers didnít bring their pricing for outboard motors! I guess for most of them itís mostly about selling boats, and they donít figure too many repowering folks will show up. I did get some pricing for Suzuki, Hondo and Yamaha setups, if anyone is interested Ė although the Yamaha one didnít sound too firm. I didnít get any Mercury quotes, although a couple of Mercury dealers told me to call them after the show.

But you know what? Iím as sold on E-Tec as ever after finally getting some firsthand experience with one. No, nobody brought one to the show, although one dealer had a picture of one hanging up.

Before going back to the show in Mobile Saturday morning, I hooked up with a local gentleman who recently repowered his 15.5-foot Stauter Built boat with what has to be one of the first Evinrude E-Tec 50 motors on the market. For those of you not familiar with this boat maker, they have been building wooden boats here in Mobile since 1947. You can read all about them at this Web site:

http://www.stauterboats.com

From the looks of the guyís boat and all the gear he had on board, I can probably expect similar performance as he has gotten. He said he has taken the boat out three times since putting the new motor on. He said he has a long way to go from his location to wherever it is he goes to fish for trout, so he runs it fast and hard for a long time. (I was more interested in his motor than grilling him about his fishing spots!) He first had a 17-inch prop on the motor, but that sent his RPMs past 6,000, so he is now swinging a 19-inch wheel. The prop is stainless.

I snapped some pictures, and you can view them with this links:

http://www.thevideojunkie.com/boating/e-tec1.jpg

http://www.thevideojunkie.com/boating/e-tec2.jpg

http://www.thevideojunkie.com/boating/stauter.jpg

The blue color is stunningly beautiful, IMHO. My pictures do not do it justice Ė nor do any other pictures I have seen online or in magazines. For anybody considering putting one of these motors on an old blue Whaler, it should make a nice aesthetic combination.

The motor seemed much quieter on the hose (love the hose attachment point Ė no earmuffs!) than my old Johnson. The guy said you can hardly hear it at all when itís in the water, and he still hasnít burned a tank of gas yet.

Interesting that this gentlemanís boat is of similar size to mine (donít know how wood vs. fiberglass relates), and he also had an old Johnson 50 2-stroke on his before repowering, just like me. He said the new Evinrude 50 is much stronger than his old Johnson. Thatís just anecdotal evidence, but itís what I want to hear.

Based on the high price a nearby dealer gave me, it looks like Iím going to order my E-Tec from Custom Marine in Georgia (thanks, flawton!). Iím going to try to get the engine ordered in a couple of days and order everything else I need to get this rigged in a week or so when Iíll have just a little more cash. Iíve been de-rigging my boat the last few hours and cleaning it. Itís amazing how dirty something can get underneath a tarp, but at least the sun and leaves were kept away.

Oh, I saw the Evinrude tachometer with the status lights in it on this guyís boat. For the reasons I stated in an earlier post, Iíd like to use the Teleflex tach already installed in my console. Bigshot, are you saying there is an OMC/Bombardier system check gauge I can order that I can use in conjunction with my old tachometer? It makes me nervous that the fellow from Custom Marine said this engine wonít even start without the system check tach. I donít know if this is true, but if so perhaps the system check gauge you mention will fulfill the requirement.

Iíll call that number you gave me above and see what they have.

Thanks, all!

Peter posted 02-08-2004 03:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Mike,

Thanks for the report. Did you say he was running the engine while on the flushing attachment? If he was I advise against doing that because the water pump impeller could be run dry which will burn up an impeller pretty quick. Unless they have changed something, that flushing attachment is meant to enable flushing without the engine running.

Evinrude makes a separate System Check gauge. See the one listed on eBay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26451&item=2458730739 .

Mike Brantley posted 02-08-2004 03:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Yeah, he was. So, the hose attachment is for flushing without running and you should still use "muffs" for running the engine out of the water? I'll definitely pass this tip along!

Thanks for the gauge link, too, Peter.

flawton posted 02-08-2004 07:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for flawton  Send Email to flawton     
Glad I could help, good luck with it.
Bigshot posted 02-10-2004 10:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
That is what you need!
Mike Brantley posted 02-10-2004 03:10 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Guys, thanks for all your advice. Please, nobody be offended because I haven't followed all of it! Today, I ordered the 50hp version of the Evinrude E-Tec motor from Custom Marine in Statesboro, Ga. I was predisposed to like this new technology after reading about the innovation going on at Bombardier, but the recommendation of the motor by the fellow with the Stauter boat this past weekend pushed me well over the edge. I believe (please don't let me be wrong!) that this motor will have fifty strong horses in it, not fifty weaklings.

Besides, I haven't found the 60hp variant actually available to purchase anywhere that I have looked. I'm not so sure it is in the field yet. Another besides, I don't have any more money for this project than what I'm spending. I found an even better price on a 2002 model Honda 50 (only 205 pounds!), but I want to go with the E-Tec.

I also ordered a wiring harness and sidemount controls from Custom Marine. Freight to my workplace's loading dock in Mobile is only $150 -- considerably cheaper than the $350 Ed's Marine Superstore quoted me.

I am purchasing an OMC/Bombardier system check gauge elsewhere, and my mechanic will provide control cables. I'll be using the Teleflex tachometer already installed. Not sourced yet is a propeller, and I will be starting another thread soliciting advice on that. I'll do so this evening or tomorrow, after I've had a chance to digest Jim's propeller articles and some of the messages on that subject.

Custom Marine has two 50hp E-Tec motors in stock, but they would rather order me a new one. Because of their methods of accounting they can sell an ordered one to me cheaper than the ones they already have. Apparently the cost they paid for the existing stock was higher than they can get the motors for now. I don't see what difference it makes, but I'm OK with it. They will have the motor in Statesboro early next week, and hopefully it will make it to my loading dock by the end of next week.

Theoretically, I can be back on the water a week or so after that. Yeah!

Peter posted 02-10-2004 07:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Congratulations Mike. Tell us what propeller your current 50 is turning, what your WOT rpms are and top speed. I'm betting it is an 11 x 17.
Mike Brantley posted 02-10-2004 09:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Well, OK... I'm not finished reading all of Jim's informative propeller writings, but let's go ahead and discuss wheels in this thread.

Here's what I have on the old Johnson:

Michigan 011028 11-3/4 x 17 RH 3 AL Evinrude/Johnson

That's an aluminum prop from Michigan Wheel. I have two of them, although one is fairly chewed up. The new one cost me $80 to $90 from Boat/U.S.

Top speed has been about 29 mph with me and my wife (and, like I said, I'm "big") and 12 to 18 gallons of gas on board. As far as hole shot and cruising, performance has been great with just me on the boat and good enough for me not to complain when both of are us on the boat. We typically cruise 21 to 24 mph. (I'm going by memory and doing some conversions in my head, because the GPS is usually set for knots and not mph.) In choppy water, I wish I could get on plane than a slower speed, as in some conditions top displacement speed is too slow but minimum planing speed is too fast for comfort.

Where I have been most disappointed is with bigger loads, which aren't my normal mode of operation but happen from time to time nonetheless. With two adults (one of them being fat me) and two children (ages 11 and 13, not mine because our baby girl is only 7 months old) on the last voyage with the old Johnson, performance was OK. On another cruise, there were four good-sized adults aboard. I could plane the boat, but it took a while to get up and I had to run the boat at WOT to get anywhere.

Looking at my initial post in this thread, I see I may have overstated my dissatisfaction with performance of the old motor. I'm sure more horsepower would be ideal for heavier loads, but I'd be happy if the new Evinrude 50 and the correct propeller would give only a slight or modest improvement over the old combination.

Peter, you want RPMs for the old Johnson. Unfortunately, that's crucial but missing data. I never got the tachometer working with the old setup. As I may have mentioned, the old rigging was "rigged" crazily. (New-style control box, old-style engine, cut-up and spliced wiring harness, etc.) I never could figure out how to wire in the tach. Should be simple with a fresh wiring harness and control box.

Think I should start with a 17 or a 19 pitch or something different? Aluminum or stainless?

flawton posted 02-10-2004 11:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for flawton  Send Email to flawton     
Mike,

If you talk to the guys from Costal Marine again please tell them that their ad from Georgia Outdoor News (magazine) was the catalists for you calling them. I read the new issue an hour before I read your post, that is what made me think of replying with the info I did.

I went to school in Statesboro, Go Eagles, and really enjoyed doing business with Coastal Marine.

Come on April, I've got some Cobia to catch.

Enjoy your new rig.

Peter posted 02-10-2004 11:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Mike, with a light load (myself, 12 gallons of fuel), my 15 Super Sport was regularly pushed to 36.5 MPH (GPS measured) by a Johnson 48 turning an 11 x 17 aluminum propeller. I didn't have a tachometer at the time but estimated engine speed based on normal slip (6 percent) was about 5500 RPMs.

The E-TEC has a shorter final drive than your current 50 and so I think you will need to start with a propeller with a minimum nominal pitch of 19 inches. That should put your tachometer above 5500 RPM at full throttle with a light load.

The tachometer should be able to be plugged into the control box. You may need a tachometer wiring harness with a Bombardier/OMC plug on its end to do that.

Mike Brantley posted 02-11-2004 12:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Flawton, I will mention the magazine ad next time I speak with the folks at Custom Marine.

Peter, thanks for your insight. That supports what my new friend found when he had to go from a 17 to a 19-inch prop on his E-Tec motor. I'll start with that and see what kind of performance I get.

The Trailer Boats review I referenced above mentions this engine can drive larger diameter propellers than other motors in its class. That sounds like I need a diameter bigger than 11-3/4 like my old props. I have to find out about the hub size too.

Right now, I have wiring connected to the tach at one end and tied in a bundle (and labeled) but not connected at the other -- just dangling down. Sounds like that needs to be wired into a plug. I suppose the wiring harness like you mention would be better. I'll ask my mechanic.

Meanwhile, I just read about a 5200-removing product called Anti-Bond 2015 that is sold at Boat/U.S. stores and eslewhere. I might pry that tachometer out of the console yet. That will be necessary if I need to swap out my wires for a wiring harness -- or go with the the Evinrude tach/system check combination unit instead of the separates.

Thanks, guys, for the information, advice and well wishes. I am really excited. I figure a new engine on an old hull is almost as good as a whole new boat. Funny, my wife just watched the "Boat Test Reports" TV show with me, and she said, "We should get a bigger boat." So when I come home with a big Outrage or something in a couple of years, I'll have to remind her of that comment. I'll point her to this thread if it is still in the archives.

DaveNJ posted 02-11-2004 07:03 AM ET (US)     Profile for DaveNJ  Send Email to DaveNJ     
Mike -
Keep us informed on how you like the E-TEC motor. I am very interested.
Post some pictures too so we can see how it looks on the classic 15'.

good luck with it and have fun,
Dave

Bigshot posted 02-11-2004 10:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Problem here is we are assuming the gearcase is identical to the old style. My 15 with a 50 ran a 11.75x17 and it was perfect and did high 30's. My 60hp 2cyl ran a 19" SST and would hit it's 6k redline and run low 40's. That is all great but what if these e-tecs run the larger gearcase and require the V4 prop? Then I would think the 13 3/8x17 SST would be right being I believe these engine pull 6k or so. If the engine does require the V4 prop....great because they are easy as hell to find. Should be about 10 on E-Bay and up till a few months ago, I had 3 in my garage. I currently run a 13x18 SST on my 70hp 4 stroke and she is perfect. My 15' with the 70 ran a 13x20 and was perfect. My point is sometimes you need to go custom to get PERFECT. Most people settle for less than perfect. Seems like you run heavy loads more than light so go underpropped more than over propped. I run light so I run perfect if I can.

Your old 50 was on it's last legs for a while.....this engine gonna put a HUGE smile on that face.

JohnJ80 posted 02-11-2004 12:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for JohnJ80  Send Email to JohnJ80     
I'm thinking you are gonna be one happy camper with this motor. World of difference from the 2S world.

j

Peter posted 02-11-2004 04:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Bigs, the E-TEC gearcase runs 2.67:1 gears instead of 2.42:1.
Mike Brantley posted 02-11-2004 05:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
A huge smile on my face, eh? That sounds very good.

Let me see if I've got this figured out correctly. My friend with a slightly lighter boat and a significantly lighter crew needs a 19-inch pitch to hit but not exceed the proper top-end RPM range at WOT. With a 17-inch pitch, his motor too easily spins up past 6,000 RPMs.

Me, with a heavier boat and -- ahem -- a heavier crew will so tax my motor that with a 19-inch pitch propeller the motor will not achieve the same numbers of RPMs and thus I really wouldn't be benefitting from all my horsepower. So a smaller pitch, say 17 inches, would allow my motor to more easily turn nearer the upper end of the recommended range and give me the most power.

Hope I have it right and am making sense. I've been reading a lot on the subject, but there's a lot to take in. The articles in the reference section are excellent, and I'm also learning plenty in the concurrent thread by Ranger Rick.

I still have to figure out what diameter and hub size I'm supposed to be buying. I didn't get a chance to call Custom Marine and ask today, and it's afterhours in the Eastern time zone now. I can't seem to find the exact information on the Evinrude site. I see a lot of propellers on eBay, but I don't know what to get. There's also the local place First Thought mentioned above.

Guys, you're making me feel good with the encouragement on this motor. I know it's not the motor every one of you would pick for yourselves, but that's the nature of outboards. We don't get much choice with new boats this days (think Whaler-Mercury corporate sibling relationship), but at least we get to shop around for the best fit when repowering an old hull.

Can a decent stainless wheel be had for $200 or not much more? At least closer to $200 than $300? Otherwise, $120 or so seems about right for a good aluminum propeller?

Peter posted 02-11-2004 10:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
You want a wheel that will put you in the 5500 to 6000 RPM range as you will be normally loaded. I think a 19 inch pitch will put you in that range and a 17 inch pitch will be too short, putting you over the 6000 RPM mark. However, the best thing to do is work with your dealer and test props until you find the right one. That might mean a 3 blade 17 or 19 inch pitch or even a 4 blade.

I can't ever recall Evinrude offering a gear case (except perhaps the commercial gear cases) with such a high gear ratio so there may be a new set of optimized propellers for these motors. I'm not sure that the propellers that were made for the old 50 HP Evinrudes or the Evinrude V4s will work with these motors. Your dealer should know.

Mike Brantley posted 02-13-2004 01:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Sometimes you don't know if you are doing the right thing, but you have to make a decision anyway. I figure I have a 50-50 chance at having ordered the correct propeller for my boat-motor combination.

These E-Tec motors apparently are so new that few propeller outlets I contacted even have a clue about them. Most will steer you toward what is appropriate for an old-style Evinrude 2-stroke, but that's not the correct prop for this motor. (And I won't have an owner's manual to look at until the motor arrives. I wish engine manufacturers would put those things online, the way electronics manufacturers such as Icom and Garmin do.) When I called the place in Georgia that's selling me the motor, even they admitted they would have to contact Evinrude to figure out what size propeller is appropriate. Apparently I bought the first E-Tec 50 they've sold, based on what the fellow told me yesterday. (Man, that makes me feel positively experimental!)

Anyway, I called an Evinrude dealer in Mississippi (Roughwater Marine), not too many miles down the road from me. They weren't even close on the motor price when I was shopping, but the fellow there is very nice and helpful and ordered an aluminum prop for me for $136. The proper stainless prop would run me $419, he said. Maybe I'll go stainless from a cheaper source down the road. I just need to get onto the water now.

I went with 17 pitch. If that doesn't work well, he'll let me swap the prop for a 19-pitch version. I'm thinking one of these two three-bladed props will work well for me, but it's a debate about which one without trying one or both in the water with my typical load.

Meanwhile, I won that eBay auction for the systems check gauge. $28 with shipping/handling/insurance. All the pieces are coming together. I bout some Anti-Bond 2015 at West Marine last night, and this weekend if I can catch a break from the rain I'm going to try to get the old gauges out that I stupidly stuck in place with 3M 5200. I want to put the systems check gague in where I have a water temp gague I probably won't use, and I want to get the Teleflex tachometer out so I can see the adjustment on the back for engine type. Take it from me: Don't use 5200 for a job like this.

Mike Brantley posted 02-19-2004 07:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
The E-Tec is here! :) It's on the back of my truck, still in the crate, waiting to go with the boat to my mechanic in the morning. I'm going to dig out the manual and read it tonight.

No, I don't think I will tell anybody where I live while the motor is "loose" on the truck. (grin)

I drove over to Mississippi today and pick up my propeller. It's a 14x17 Bombardier OEM aluminum prop. The box says it's for V4 motors, so perhaps that's an indication I'll be able to easily pick up a stainless one on eBay down the road a bit.

I'll post a review once we get this thing on the boat and the boat in the water. Thanks, all.

DaveNJ posted 02-20-2004 07:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for DaveNJ  Send Email to DaveNJ     
Mike -

Great! Can't wait to hear a report on how it is.
Will you be able to get a Bombard service tech to perform the initial checks before firing up? This was mentioned in another post for warranty reasons.

good luck,
Dave

Bigshot posted 02-20-2004 10:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
I think you will not be happy with the 14x17. Too much diameter for a light boat. A 13.25x17 will be better or maybe the 13x19. As long as you can return it, try it.
Mike Brantley posted 02-20-2004 12:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Dave, I don't believe there is actually such a requirement -- at least that is my belief after reading my warranty, speaking with the selling dealer and talking to the local gentleman who installed his own E-Tec motor on the Stauter boat mentioned above. I haven't called Bombardier, but the selling dealer is filling out all the necessary forms to register my motor for warranty effective from the purchase date. I'm awaiting my sales receipt by mail, as it did not come with the motor.

That said, I know for certain it is absolutely necessary to take the motor to an authorized service center to have any warranty work done or to reprogram the engine management module (EMM, as Evinrude calls it in all the literature) to use the new oil. I may do that, because -- as was mentioned in the other thread in the General forum -- these motors were made for that oil. (Or, the other way around, I guess.) Out of the box from the factory, the EMM is preprogrammed for standard oil.

I was pleased to see the engine wiring harness I ordered has the necessary "pigtail" with proper connector for the system check gauge. I was afraid I would need an additional harness or connector for this since my gauge came with no wires. I have an OMC system check gauge and the Teleflex tachometer mentioned above (which I was able to remove thanks to Anti-Bond 2015 used to free up the 3M 5200 I stupidly used to hold the tach in place). I may use those gauges, or I may use the Faria tachometer and speedometer I just bought off eBay, since that tach has the system check built in. Those gauges are to be delivered Saturday, so I will have a surplus of gauges and can choose whatever I like best. What I don't use I'll sell or keep for some future project. (I suspect in the years ahead I will acquire multiple Whalers, as others here have also been afflicted with a condition I call fleet-itus.)

I stayed up late reading the manual and all literature cover to cover before handing the package over to my most trusted mechanic at Mobile Marine. I got there before he did this morning, and as none of his employees were there yet we unloaded the motor and moved it into his shop ourselves. Nothing like going into the office with a fresh coating of sweat after having wrestled with a 240-pound outboard motor!

An initial observation: I hope the motor is put together better than the shipping crate. I believe the wood Bombardier used for the base of the crate was completely inadequate, as the thing was disintegrating on us as we lowered the works from my pickup bed to the ground. I'm glad it wasn't necessary to ship the motor a mile farther than I did. My mechanic commented that he sees crates for other makes of motor that are so rugged he is able to reuse them to ship motors out in. This was a one-time-only crate, if that. It got the motor here unharmed, so I won't complain too much.

I instructed him to mount the motor with the cavitation plate one inch or a little more above the keel. I believe the old Johnson was set lower than this, possibly below the keel,

which may account for some of my lack of performance.

Bigshot, thanks for the propeller input. You probably right, I'm sure. I ordered this one as my best educated guess about what might work best, based on advice given here and elsewhere. But I figured my guess could be wrong, so I bought the prop from a dealership that is willing to allow me to swap it out until I get the rig "dialed in." My mechanic believes he can find me a stainless prop in the $200 or more range once we figure out what works best.

Bigshot posted 02-20-2004 02:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
I think your SST prop will be a 13 3/8x17" or 13x19 which are readily available on E-Bay(even new). I was not happy with the 14x17 which came with my engine on my Montauk which is heavier than your rig.
Peter posted 02-20-2004 03:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Mike, as a precaution, you may want to have the oil programming checked to be sure that the motor is programmed to use conventional oil. Even though it is supposed to come from the factory that way doesn't mean its so.

For what its worth, my Yamaha 70 spins a 13 x 19 propeller through 2.33:1 gears to 5900 RPM. Considering the higher gear ratio on the E-TEC, I still think your ideal propeller will be a stainless 13.?? x 19. You really don't need a propeller with a 14 inch diameter for a light boat such as 15 Sport.

Mounting your motor higher than the previous one may require drilling new holes.

Mike Brantley posted 02-20-2004 04:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Thanks again, guys, for all input. Sounds like the 14 x 17 isn't likely to be the perfect fit, but I'll go ahead and give it a whirl (ha!) since I have it and am able to exchange it after testing. Peter, perhaps having the default programming checked would be prudent. If going that route, I might as well have the thing programmed for the new oil and buy some of that stuff.

It'd be very cool if one day I had whatever computer/PDA interface/software is necessary to look at what's in this motor's computer. If it's keeping track of data such as hours run, hours run at WOT, hours at idle, fuel burned, RPMs turned, etc., it would be nice to be able to see that without visiting a repair center. Am I understanding correctly how such things work?

I don't have a separate hour meter gauge, so how do I know when the motor reaches 300 hours, or 150 hours, and needs servicing? I supposed I could install a mechanical hour meter gauge, but isn't the EMM already keeping up with that?

Meanwhile, I'm tempted to drive by the shop later and spy on my boat to see if anything happened already. But my guy has a bulldog guarding the place afterhours. He might bite my nosey, impatient butt!

rbruce posted 02-21-2004 07:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for rbruce  Send Email to rbruce     
Mike:

I have been reading your posts with great attention and have found the process of repowering your Whaler 15' to be very interesting to say the least.

Have you had the motor on water? Will you observe some kind of break-in process although Bombardier says it is obsolete? What kind of oil will you use, perhaps Ficht Ram motor oil?

I look forward for your future postings and I hope that you enjoy the repowering project for many years to come?

Mike Brantley posted 02-22-2004 05:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
rbruce, I haven't had the new motor on the water yet, as it is not yet installed on the boat. As a matter of fact, I just did a drive-by spy mission at my mechanic's shop, even though he is closed today, and noted the old motor has net yet been removed from the transom. But he did tell me he would call me Monday or Tuesday, so I expect the job won't be finished before Tuesday evening.

No matter, because while the weather has been perfect for boating this weekend, we are expecting thunderstorms in the area over the next couple of days. It likely will be next weekend before I can get onto the water to test the setup.

But I did get to go sailing with a friend Saturday. Conditions were beautiful, so you know I'm dying to get my boat back! I took my Garmin GPSMap 176 with me, and I measured our top speed at 5.1 knots going south and 3.1 knots coming back north in Mobile Bay, with winds out of the north. I'm pretty sure my E-Tec will beat this (grin), but my 2hp kicker wouldn't be able to keep up.

As far as oil, I'm going to use standard TCW3 oil for now and perhaps have the EMM reprogrammed to handle the new XD100 oil a little later. I haven't given any thought to brand of TCW3 oil. Should I?

I'm not planning on a regimented break-in period, since none is called for by the manufacturer. But I likely will "take it easy" on the motor at first.

I'll report back after the work is done, and I'll definitely provide data and impressions after I get onto the water.

Bigshot posted 02-23-2004 12:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Mike.....As per the infamous Jerry reed song "Guitar man" is there really a place in Mobile called Big Jack's?
NausetBoy posted 02-23-2004 04:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for NausetBoy  Send Email to NausetBoy     
Hey, Mike, I am in Mobile, whos tha dealer thats doing your work?
First Thought posted 02-24-2004 08:47 AM ET (US)     Profile for First Thought  Send Email to First Thought     
Mike:

Glad to hear you have things coming together. Check out the boat section in Sundays paper, you know the local mullet wrapper(grin) that keeps you busy. One of the prop shops in town is advertising a clearance on all their in stock props, new and recon. If you get your prop size dialed in you might be able to pick up a deal on a stainless. See, you on the water.

Bigshot posted 02-24-2004 11:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Ok...3 people from Mobile....is there a "Big Jack's bar"?
Wild Turkey posted 02-24-2004 12:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for Wild Turkey  Send Email to Wild Turkey     
I'll make four... Never heard of "Big Jack's Bar"
Bigshot posted 02-24-2004 01:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Song was from the early 70's might not exist or may have back then. Was kind of a blues/rock-a-billy joint.
Mike Brantley posted 02-24-2004 06:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Bigshot, same answer applies from me re Big Jack's Bar. I also have until now been unfamiliar with "Guitar Man," but you've got me interested enough to order "The Essential Jerry Reed" on CD. After doing a (very) little amount of research through Google, I now know that Reed wrote and recorded the tune and also played guitar on a recording of "Guitar Man" by Elvis Presley.

NausetBoy, no dealer, but my mechanic is Danny Beech at Mobile Marine. I did another "drive-by" today and saw the new motor is unwrapped but the old motor is still on my transom. I haven't called to bug him, 'cause I figure he or some of his employees may have been doing the Mardi Gras thing the last couple of days. But he said he would call me Monday or Tuesday and he hasn't, so I'll give him a ring Wednesday to see how it's going. Weather looks like it's going to be beautiful here on Saturday, so I'd love to have my rig back together by then.

Buddy, I'll check the Mullet Wra-- er, better make that the Mobile Register from Sunday for the ad from the prop shop. I'll let you know if I end up with a good deal out of that. The new motor deserves a shiny wheel, doesn't it? Just have to get dialed in on the size.

masbama posted 02-26-2004 06:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for masbama  Send Email to masbama     
Make it five now....never heard of Big Jacks either...... I do remember the 'Fandango' though.....
Bigshot posted 02-27-2004 01:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Essential Jerry Reed, Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard are the ultimate way to enjoy an artist.
Mike Brantley posted 02-28-2004 12:28 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
:-) <-- That's the big, full-toothed grin on my face.

I picked up the boat this afternoon and ran up and down Dog River (a tributary to Mobile Bay) for a couple of hours. They said no break-in, so I gave her full throttle a time or two.

With the new motor, the boat practically leaps onto plane. It surprised me how nimbly it jumped onto plane, in fact. My load was 300 pounds of crew (unfortunately that's just my big arse), 12 gallons of fuel and assorted gear. Top end was 33 mph. Previously, my high speed with a similar load was 29 mph. Truthfully, I don't need to go any faster. I keep reading how others are traveling faster speeds (46 mph!) in this hull, but the thought of that frankly scares me. I'll be testing the boat tomorrow with a crew of two.

Running the stock aluminum prop (14 x 17), I hit 5700 rpm and 33 mph at WOT. Cruising at 25 mph, the tachometer read 4500 rpm. It's nice to move this boat without having to drive at WOT or close to it all the time.

What do y'all think? Recommended rpm range is 5000 to 6000. Should I try to fine-tune the prop choice to get closer to 6000, given today will be my lightest load? I'll let you know what the measurements are for tomorrow.

Other impressions: This thing is very quiet, compared to my old Johnson. I'll get a better idea tomorrow what it's like to converse with someone while running. The motor started right away when I turned the ignition, even though I had forgotten to squeeze the primer bulb. I ran with my 2hp kicker (30 pounds) mounted in its usual spot on the transom just because I wanted a backup ready to go on the first day. With both motors (240 pounds plus 30), the splash well drains were just below the water at rest, with me in or out of the boat. I haven't tried it without the kicker mounted yet, but only a small amount of water entered the splash well and it ran right out when the boat was moving. When idling out of geat, the motor seems a little rougher than the old Johnson (after having the Johnson's carbs rebuilt, that is), which is visible as my GPS shaking on its mount. But in gear, everything smooths out, and the GPS doesn't shake at all. (Before the old motor got its carb's redone, the GPS was too shaky to read while the boat was moving at all.)

That's all for now. I took pictures, but it will be a couple of days before I can put them online. Thanks, all.

My daughter is crying, so no time to proofread before hitting submit. Forgive all typos.

Peter posted 02-28-2004 07:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The propeller calculator says your propeller is getting a good grip on the water, only 4 percent slip, which it should given its diameter. You are in the upper part of the WOT range which is also good. I can't recall exactly where I've read this, but every extra inch of diameter reduces RPM by something like 100. So if you were running your old 11 3/4 x 17 propeller, if you could, on this motor you'd probably be right around 5900 to 6000 RPM.

Your propeller should be OK for your purposes. If you wanted to optimize performance, at some point, try to borrow a smaller diameter 17 inch propeller, such as a 13 1/4 x 17 (if you can find one to fit), and a 19 inch pitch propeller, such as an 11 1/2 x 19 (if it will fit which I'm not sure because it seems this is a V4 gearcase), and see where your tachometer needle rests at WOT. My guess is that a propeller dimensioned along the lines of about 12 x 19 would be ideal for your motor/boat combination.

rbruce posted 02-28-2004 10:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for rbruce  Send Email to rbruce     
Mike:

In "The Propeller Handbook" by Dave Gerr he states that for every 2 inches of propeller pitch increase you lower 450 rpm's. I think from what I've read in this book that you could increase the propeller pitch by two more inches, run in the lower part of your full range rpm's, increase speed (which is a safety reserve that you are spending now at 6,000 rpm) and increase your engine longevity and finally save some gasoline and oil. Gasoline in Costa Rica is now at $2.77 per US gallon!

I would personally have the motor set to use XD-100 oil as it will consume 50% less than TCW-3 as advertised. I believe that this recommendation of the manufacturer might save you money or break even very shortly. If you boat constantly or perhaps derive your livelihood from boating (most of us derive our mental health from boating), then I would buy the oil in 5 US gallon drums for instance.

Bombardier's marketing strategy on this motor has been to advertise the use of state of the art components, materials, expertise and software that it accumulated over the years with their FICHT motors. Using their synthetic motor oil is only part of this philosophy and should be synonymous of longer or planned engine longevity, perhaps less internal friction and higher fuel economy which in the end is hard earned money returning to your pocket.

Dave Gerr also states that an inch increase in propeller diameter you lower engine rpm's by 1,000 rpms to 1,500 rpms. Therefore, I would increase propeller pitch and keep the motor in the conservative side of rpm full range or within 90% of top rpms. In your case if 6,000 is top rpm then your target full range at wide open throttle should be around 5,400 rpm's.

Even better, your Bombardier dealer should have a recommendation for your hull, motor and type of propeller. Perhaps a four bladed propeller is better for your type of boating than a three bladed.

Good luck and many hours of boating enjoyment ahead!

jimh posted 02-28-2004 11:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Please continue to update us on the performance of the Evinrude E-TEC™ 50-HP engine.
Mike Brantley posted 02-28-2004 11:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Thanks, Peter and rbruce, for the advice. Here's an update on today's voyage,

This afternoon, it was me and my neighbor (500 pounds of crew in total) in the boat, along with most of the 12 gallons of fuel I started with on Friday's cruise. We returned to Dog River, this time exploring side branches Robinson Bayou and Halls Mill Creek. We went quite a ways up Halls Mill Creek, and we would have needed a canoe to continue past the point we had to turn back. All that was pretty much idle speed only, although we did open her up in the main river.

With this load, my top speed dropped from 33 mph to 31.5 mph, and the tachometer dropped from 5700 rpm at WOT to 5500 rpm. These best results came with slightly trimming out the motor, as was the case Friday. I would say this is my more typical load, although with three people on the boat you can expect the crew to weigh in at close to 700 pounds. (My capacity plate said some nonsense (grin) about 645 pounds capacity or five people, but you can't read the writing on it anymore after the boat was washed a few times!)

Is one approach to go for close to maximum rpms so as not to waste any power of the engine -- say, 5900 rpm? Or is it better to keep the max to the middle or low range to save wear and tear on engine? I'm seeing conflicting advice here, I think. Which end of the range has the motor working harder for a given speed?

A correction: The recommended rpm range in the owner's manual for the 50 and 60 hp is 5500 to 6000, not 5000 to 6000 as I stated. The wider range is listed as recommended for the 40 hp version of the E-Tec motor.

My thinking is to re-prop so that I achieve 5900 rpm at WOT with just me in the boat, 5700 rpm with two people and 5500 with three people in the boat. Does that make sense?

I won't be trading this 14 x 17 aluminum prop in, though. It got some minor scrapes when we ran over a small piece of wooden debris, and it no longer looks new. Why do they paint these things? I will be buying an additional stainless steel prop, wherever I can get a good deal on price, and keeping the 14 x 17 as a spare.

Think I should try a 13 x 17 stainless next? Or 13.25 x 17?

Neither the Evinrude dealer in Georgia that sold me the engine nor the dealer in Mississippi that sold me the propeller have any recommendations about the correct prop for my hull. But I will be passing the results of my experimentation back to them so that it might help the next customers with a similar hull-engine combination.

Somebody asked if the motor came with crankcase oil already in it. The answer is "yes." The main oil tank was empty.

My rigging cost was $222, with $160 of that in labor, $52 for control cables, $6 for oil and the rest in sales tax. Danny Beech and his colleague at Mobile Marine did an excellent and very neat installation, including straightening out some of my instrument panel wiring. I gave him my old motor and controls, which may have bought me some generosity in rigging costs, but we didn't discuss it. I'm going to take him my Yamaha 2hp kicker next, because I can't get the thing started.

Performance and sex appeal aside, I'm realling digging that this new motor is so much easier to start than the old one. Just twitch the key, and you're off. No choking, priming (the bulb is always hard), cursing, praying, etc.


Mike Brantley posted 02-29-2004 01:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Hate to be giving out conflicting information, but that's what Bombardier is doing. As I just stated, my owner's manual gives the following operating ranges for the bottom three E-Tec models:

40hp 5,000 to 6,000 rpm
50hp 5,500 to 6,000 rpm
60hp 5,500 to 6,000 rpm

However, the Evinrude Web site gives this:

40hp 4,500 to 5,500 rpm
50hp 5,000 to 6,000 rpm
60hp 5,000 to 6,000 rpm

Which is right? Beats me. I just want my motor to be as efficient as possible, giving me best performance without unduly taxing itself. For my model, 5,500 to 6,000 is within specs for both tables. I just didn't want to potentially mislead anyone with the 40hp model.

jimh posted 02-29-2004 10:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Great information, Mike! This is one of the first reports on the E-TEC™ engine to appear. Most of the magazine articles I've seen are not really based on any on-the-water experience with this engine.
rbruce posted 02-29-2004 10:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for rbruce  Send Email to rbruce     
Mike:

I believe that with the boat laden and you are doing 5,900 rpm with the 14" x 17" propeller then all is right where it should be. You could always increase the diameter to 14 1/2" however, this might only add to your expense.

The propeller links your motor to the water and makes your boat move. In other words your propeller is a gear you choose in your car, lets say you choose to start your car out of second gear, it will not stall but when you reach 30 mph your engine will be racing at 4,500 rpm's. I you choose third your car might stall but with liberal use of the clutch you might reach 45 mph at 4,500 rpm's. It will be bad to get you out of the hole but you will be able to cruise. On the other hand second gear will be adecuate to get you into motion but bad for cruising at high speeds.

A propeller will be good for some situations, you do not have a transmission in your motor and the choice of propeller will vary with your boating preferences, perhaps a 16" pitch will be good for skiing and the 19" will be good for cruising, if you have the cash and the will you can try other propellers. With variable pitch propellers you have some varation but it does not replace a transmission found in vehicles.

Therefore, the choice of a propeller will depend on your boating preferences.

Take care and use XD100!

Mike Brantley posted 02-29-2004 10:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
rbruce, I'm not getting 5,900 with the 14 x 17. I'm getting 5,700 with just me in the boat and 5,500 with two people. It seems the heavier the load the lower the rpm. Therefore, it seems with three people and some more gear in the boat I will fall below 5,500 (which is below what the manual recommends). I think I want to prop so I max at 5,900 with lightest load and reach 5,500 with heaviest.

My typical load will be two or three people. My occasioanal load will be one person or sometimes four people. My boat was slower to plane with two people, especially if we both sat on the rear seat.

Thanks, Jim, for fixing my typo above. Sorry, guys, for the others I've made (what's "realling"?), but Jim got the only one that would have caused serious confusion, I think.

I was bad and played on the boat all day yesterday. (But it was my birthday!) Today, I have to be good and help my wife prepare for our Oscars dinner party tonight. So I won't have time to get the pictures up just yet. But they are coming.

Peter posted 02-29-2004 11:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Mike,

I would say the owner's manual is right. The general rule is to choose a propeller that will put you in the upper part of the WOT operating range as you are normally loaded. If the range is 5500 to 6000 RPM as the operating manual says, then I would choose a propeller so that you hit approximately 5750 RPM as typically loaded. The 17 inch pitch seems to be about right but I think the grip of the 14 inch diameter propeller is holding the engine back a little with your loading (that is just a lot of diameter for a 15 foot boat).

I agree that your next move is to try a 13 or 13 1/4 x 17 if you can find one that fits. Evinrude doesn't seem to offer one. That should slip a little more and allow the engine to rev a little higher under all conditions.
I'm guessing that should bring your RPMs up about 100 or so througout the range.

Moe posted 02-29-2004 12:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Mike, I weigh almost as much as you do, and with me, the wife, and all our gear, in the 150 Sport, the 60HP EFI BigFoot (5500-6000 rpm peak hp range) maxes out at 5,400-5,500 rpm with the 13-7/8" X 15" prop. Don't know what the actual speed is. I'll bet with a single 150 lb operator and one tank, the boat would hit near 6,000 rpm.

But we don't run the motor that fast. Occasionally, we do a run at 4,800 rpm, but mostly cruise at 3,400 to 4,200 rpm. Minimum planing speed is 3,200 rpm. Fuel mileage is great, with us getting 35-40 miles (as measured on a chart) out of a 6 gallon tank. Acceleration is sufficient for us.

I don't want to give up the lower rpm/mph and fuel mileage just to be able to turn closer to 6,000 rpm and have better acceleration. Sure a smaller diameter 13" prop would probably do that, but may also take our minimum planing rpm up to or over 3700 rpm, meaning our minimum cruise speed would be near 4,000 rpm. Look what happened to rpm with the 190 with 115 4-stroke, going from the 15" prop I use down 1/2" in diameter, and down 1" in pitch, and to stainless. Pay particular attention to the 19 mph just above planing speed.

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/190Nantucket.html

With 2.67:1/17" pitch, you're geared about the same as we are with 2.33:1/15" pitch. Note your minimum planing and cruise rpms. Note what happens to these when you go to a steeper pitch prop.

That's our perspective...
--
Moe

Peter posted 02-29-2004 01:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Moe, some might say you are getting a little better mileage at the cost of lugging your engine.

The data in the table is interesting but it compares two different propellers and provides no indication of engine trim at the various speeds. What it does show clearly is reducing diameter will mean less bite.

Mike's objective here is simple: make sure not to lug the engine. His prior Johnson 50 spun an 11 3/4 diameter propeller through a 2.42:1 ratio. This new motor is turning a 14 inch through 2.67:1 gearbox! Not quite as big a jump from the 2.33:1 your motor turns. Intuitively speaking, the diameter seems too large for the application.
Because the 14 inch propeller gets such a good grip here, I think there is some risk of lugging under heavy loads.

With respect to my direct injected 225 Evindrude Fichts, I've been told by several folks to prop them so they get up into the high part of the WOT range as typically loaded. That means 5800 RPM in my case. Because I have a 300 gallon tank, that means that when its nearly empty, WOT RPM might actually exceed the recommended range. I rarely operate at WOT and would not do so with a nearly empty tank in any case.

Generally, the recommendation for the Ficht, like all other engines, has alot to do with making sure the engines are not lugging overall. More specifically, I suspect that the emphasis on that recommendation has something to do with making sure the transition from stratified charging to homogenious charging is made under the lightest of loaded conditions possible.

Mike should check with Bombardier on what they recommend but I suspect that the same recommendations with regard to the Ficht will apply to the E-TEC. Sacrificing a little grip on a light boat to make sure the engine isn't lugging when heavily loaded is probably not a bad thing.

Lil Whaler Lover posted 02-29-2004 02:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for Lil Whaler Lover  Send Email to Lil Whaler Lover     
Mike,

There has been lots of advice shared here about the best prop for your boat.

A couple of thoughts for your consideration. First since you have "scratched" the prop that came with it I would recommend that you get a few more hours on it before trying another prop. In spite of not requiring a break-in, the engine is likely to gain a few rpm's with some time on it. I think that after a few hours the 14x17 will be very close for your usage. Secondly, when I got to run a 90 E-Tec last fall I got to talk to a factory support guy who had set up the engine. I also asked him if the lower unit set up on the 40/50/60 would act like a Merc big-foot on a pontoon boat (I sell pontoon boats). He said it was the some idea. I asked him about prop development for the engines and was told that they would not be interchangeable with the props for current comparable sized engines and that new props were in development for most every application they could think of.

Try to find a way to talk with somebody in customer service and let us know what you can learn.

Moe posted 02-29-2004 05:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Peter, those who would say that didn't read my post thoroughly and/or don't understand the issue.

In the first place, "lugging" an engine occurs at lower rpms (usually under about twice the idle speed) when the flywheel has insufficient energy to keep a heavy load from slowing the engine significantly between combustions. Lugging results in snatching back and forth in the engine and drivetrain, even when it's too little to be perceived. Lugging can occur even when detonation does not. Overloading at higher rpms isn't "lugging."

I don't disagree that an engine not properly tuned for a heavy load can be overloaded if it results in detonation. The problem here is that the force of combustion on the piston, through the leverage of the crankshaft stroke, cannot drive the piston down quickly enough and expand the combustion volume to keep cylinder pressure in check, against the load. As rpms increase, it is less likely to occur due to faster piston movement, but it can occur at any speed with enough load.

One solution is to retard ignition timing to reduce the pressure level. More sophisticated EFI systems have knock sensors that allow more advanced timing when lightly loaded, and less advanced timing with heavier loads. I understand that not many outboards have that.

The other solution, when an engine is loaded enough to cause detonation, is to not use WOT. As the throttle is closed, the pressure drops, just as it does with retarded timing.

It doesn't take WOT to move our boat along at 4800 rpm, and the pressure isn't that high. Even at WOT, there's no sign of detonation, but we don't go there except for a little testing. Even if we did use WOT often, we'd just not do so in the much less frequent times when three or more are aboard.

Peter, you choose to prop to reach near the upper end of the max rpm range with a full fuel tank and use less than WOT to keep from overspeeding when it's lighter. The cost of doing so, versus propping for the max rpm with an empty tank, is higher engine speed at any given boat speed. One might say you've accepted a little higher engine wear and fuel use to stay a little further away from the possibility of detonation. That's wise if propping higher could've resulted in detonation, but a waste if it wouldn't have. Your boat, your call.

Mike needs to evaluate his use of the boat. If most of it is going to be with one or two people, he'll be within the manufacturer's recommended maximum rpm range with the current prop, and just might want to be a little easier on the throttle with a third aboard. Frankly, I doubt the lower 50HP version of this motor will detonate at WOT with three in his boat... despite the 14" pitch. Propping for 6,000 rpm or more when he's solo and/or 5,500 rpm when three are aboard, is definitely going to result in a higher minimum planing and cruise rpms.
--
Moe

Bigshot posted 03-01-2004 10:51 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
This ios good Mike....Keep the 14x17 as a spare and I bet a 13 3/8 x17 stainless is gonna be perfect. Might bring it up a tad but 57-5800 is fine. Most boats will not hit the range when loaded down....no biggie unless ALWAYS loaded down. You could try a 13x19 but I guarantee it will be too big. Get a 17" SST and she should be perfect.
Bigshot posted 03-01-2004 11:14 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Here is what Irecommend personally:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26456&item=2462961264

Tom W Clark posted 03-01-2004 11:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Nick,

Did you miss David Wheeler's comments above about the E-Tec using props that are not cross compatible with other OMC/Bombardier motors?

Mike Brantley posted 03-01-2004 12:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
There's good information here, so thanks. Lil, that makes sense about the comparison of these motors to the "Big Foot" Mercury motors. It's why I have to be really careful and not buy a propeller from someone not in the know about the new motors, since the old OMC 50 hp props won't fit.

rbruce posted an orphan message in a new thread that apparantly was intended for this thread, but it got deleted before I could respond. He advised keeping the rpms low, but Sal responded with what sounds like good reasoning for keeping them nearer the higher end of the recommended range at WOT. I think my plan to hit close to 5,900 with a light load and reach 5,500 with a heavy load is a sound one. But Moe brings up some interesting observations about how the throttle is actually used day in and day out. With my old motor and heavy loads, I was going WOT much of the time just get where I wanted to be. With the new combination, three-quarters throttle will be a more common fast cruising speed. We often go much slower than this even, just enjoying the scenery at a moderate pace.

I put some pictures up and will provide direct links to the pictures below. I don't have time to do a more organized HTML presentation now. Note that my 2hp Yamaha kicker is now uglier than ever, without decals and next to my pretty new Evinrude. The kicker wouldn't start Saturday anyway. Probably needs the carb cleaned out. I think I will paint it (what color?) and get some decals on it, though with the E-Tec I shouldn't need to rely on the kicker as a backup anytime soon.

I'd like to try a 13 x 17 or a 13.x x 17 stainless prop next, but I just realized I'm out of money for now. I have $5,600 invested in this repowering project at present (includes rigging, new gauges, shipping of motor, etc.), and I have to stop spending money on the boat for a short spell. Admiral's orders. So I'll get a chance to see how the current combination "settles in" before buying another prop.

In the now-gone orphan post, rbruce asked some questions about the properties of the new XD100 oil. Unfortunately, I don't know the answers and haven't bought any of the stuff since my motor is currently programmed for conventional oil. I went looking on the Evinrude Web site, but I couldn't find detailed information about the new oil.

http://www.thevideojunkie.com/boating/Whaler-Etec01.jpg
http://www.thevideojunkie.com/boating/Whaler-Etec02.jpg
http://www.thevideojunkie.com/boating/Whaler-Etec03.jpg
http://www.thevideojunkie.com/boating/Whaler-Etec04.jpg
http://www.thevideojunkie.com/boating/Whaler-Etec05.jpg
http://www.thevideojunkie.com/boating/Whaler-Etec06.jpg
http://www.thevideojunkie.com/boating/Whaler-Etec07.jpg

PMUCCIOLO posted 03-01-2004 12:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for PMUCCIOLO  Send Email to PMUCCIOLO     
Mike,

Congratulations on the great repower job, and thank you for the candid and detailed pre and post purchase analyses. Best of luck with her!

Paul

15ftlover posted 03-01-2004 01:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for 15ftlover  Send Email to 15ftlover     
Mike, enjoyed the posts. We are getting a 4-stroke EFI 60Merc this week. Wanted to ask about the bow cushion on your whaler. Is that the original? how much $? and where did you get the cushion (I'm looking for one to fit my '78 striper). Also where did you find the thwart seat cushion?
LHG posted 03-01-2004 02:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
Nice pictures, and I particularly like the 15 with the bow rail. Very few of these are seen.

Is there any opinion as to how this 50 E-tec compares to the popular 50 4-strokes of various brands. There have been many posts here indicating a Mercury or Yamaha 50 4-stroke will push a Montauk this same speed. JimH has siad his 15 Sport will run 35mph with an old Mercury in-line-4 2-stroke.

Mike Brantley posted 03-01-2004 04:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Paul, thanks. I'm going to enjoy this little boat now while saving up money for that Outrage/Guardian dream project I recently e-mailed you about. A 19-foot or a 22-foot Guardian sure would look great in my driveway next to the 15, wouldn't it?

15ft, congratulations on your new motor. Giving new life to these classic boats is fun, isn't it? The cushions were made by Lois Hall at http://www.hallsnautical.com . The bow cushion (something like $165, but I can't recall exactly) is the standard dimension and so is the front thwart seat cushion, as Lois has all the Whaler original patterns. They are available in classic Whaler tan with dark piping, but I had mine done in white.

The console front cushion and the back cushion are custom dimensions, as I altered my rear seat and put in a Carolina Skiff console.

Larry, I agree with you about the bow rail. I know some people don't like them and understand who they can get in the way of fishing and boarding, but I won't have a Boston Whaler without a bow rail. They look too good and are functional. With kids, it's a safety issue, too. I regret that my Danbury Mint scale model of a classic Nauset only has side rails.

I can't speak about E-Tec 50 performance compared to the 4-strokes on the market, because I've only had direct experience with my new motor and my old Johnson. I will note that this E-Tec is about as heavy as 4-strokes in its class. It's a lot heavier than the Honda 50, in fact. It's the 90hp version of the E-Tec that is so light compared to its modern competition.


Moe, by the way, you are amazing when it comes to how you have supplied and configured your boat. Your organization and considerations of safety equipment and comfort are inspiring, and so are your graphics.

Moe posted 03-01-2004 04:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Thanks, Mike! After just looking at your pictures, I was just going to compliment you on how perfect your boat and equipment is for the Gulf Coast. While it may not be an offshore runner, it's much more versatile for the buck... ranging from a little inshore, to the ICW, to the big bay, to rivers, and even back in the shallow bayous. That really is a sweet setup for that area! A 22' Guardian would be a nice addition, but I'd never give that 15 up!

--
Moe

Bigshot posted 03-02-2004 10:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
From what I read it has the V4 foot which is the link I showed. If it had the old 50 foot it would be a 11 3/4x17", not the 13 3/8x17" like I mentioned. Is that correct?
Mike Brantley posted 03-02-2004 11:37 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Moe, thanks. You've pegged our use for the boat exactly.

Nick, you may be right. The owner's manual is oddly silent about what size prop/hub is appropriate. I should probably take the 14 x 17 OEM prop off and read what it says or count the crooked things on the hub or something! The box the propeller came in wasn't all that informative, either.

That prop on eBay might be the right size, but if I'm going to switch to stainless with the next one I might as well get something shiny and polished and not painted. I know it probably makes no difference, but those shiny wheels sure are pretty.

Bigshot posted 03-02-2004 03:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
I have one and yes they are pretty but will rust if not maintained. I can't see Evinrude "reinventing the wheel" so to speak. I can see them using the 13 spline V4 gearcase on smaller motors, kinda like a bigfoot on mercs. Not surprised they did not use the small gearcase on the new e-tecs, seems like small is out these days. Even the newer 50+60hp went to the 3cyl and V4 gearcase in late 90's. Then they dropped the 3cyl and still used the 2cyl 40+50hp....confusing aint it.
Peter posted 03-02-2004 06:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Seems like they ought to do a little inventing to bridge the nearly 2 inch diameter gap between propellers for the 2 cylinder and V4 gear cases. Something in the 12 1/2 to 13 1/4 inch range might do it.
rbruce posted 03-02-2004 09:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for rbruce  Send Email to rbruce     
I believe that low rpm's are better than high rpm's in terms of nvh (noise, vibration and harshness), fuel-oil consumption and engine durability.

If your current propeller is giving you 5,900 rpms with yourself to 5,500 fully laden, I think that you are in the ball park. If you want to conserve your motor for a very long time as your boat looks like the envy of the pier, I would choose to run at lower rpms of the spectrum.

However, if you are into skiing, then a lower pitch is needed to make the motor run at close 6,000 rpms, the higher limit. This setting will increase consumption but will get your skiier out of the hole.

There is no single propeller application for all the situations, unlike a car that has three, four, five or even six gears to accomodate every possible situation, the propeller is the only gear for your motor. Having two propellers for different applications and types of boating sounds correct.

Happy boating and keep the Yamaha as close to original as possible!

Mike Brantley posted 03-02-2004 09:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
rbruce, thanks for the kind words about my boat. But, again, my current propeller is not giving me those numbers. Those are the numbers I want. With the 14 x 17 I'm reaching 5,700 with one person aboard, 5,500 with two and presumably below that with three people. My typical load will be two to three people. Only sometimes will it be one person or four. The recommended range in the manual is 5,500 to 6,000. I'm desiring to be at the middle of the range with two people.
rbruce posted 03-02-2004 10:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for rbruce  Send Email to rbruce     
Mike: I hear you! Then I would go down 2 inches on the pitch and stay with the same diameter of propeller.

Any recommendations from Bombardier on the oil the motor should be getting?

Hey, enjoy your boat and new motor!

Mike Brantley posted 03-03-2004 12:23 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Here's what my owner's manual says about propeller selection: "The correct propeller for your boat, under normal load conditions, will allow the engine to run near the midpoint of the RPM operating range at full throttle."

Under "Specifications," the full-throttle operating range for the 50 hp version of the E-Tec is listed as 5,500 to 6,000. Power for this model is listed as 50 horsepower (37.3 kw) at 5,750 RPM.

OK, so that is going to be the final authority for me. I want to hit as close to 5,750 RPM as possible with me and my wife on board the boat. But I do want the boat to have even the capability of exceeding the recommended range with just me on the boat. My best (only half-educated!) guess is that Nick's recommendation for propeller size will be closest.

I can't find anywhere in the 56-page manual where I'm actually given specifications of hub type or size.

rbruce, here's what it says about oil. Under the "Frequently Asked Questions" section, the manual states: "Any TC-W3 oil may be used. The outboard can be programmed by your dealer to run on Evinrude/Johnson XD100 oil for lower oil consumption and reduced operating cost."

In a separate part of the manual, under "Oil Requirements," the following recommendations and requirements are given:

"Evinrude/Johnson XD100, Evinrude Direct Injection, or Evinrude/Johnson XD25 outboard oils are recommended for use in your Evinrude E-Tec outboard.

"Evinrude/Johnson brand oils are formulated to give best engine performance while controlling piston and combustion chamber deposits, providing superior lubrication, and ensuring maximum spark plug life.

"Evinrude/Johnson XD100 oil is preferred for your Evinrude E-Tec outboard. It is formulated with special additives for cleaner burning and lower consumption. This synthetic blend oil also provides superior lubrication and maintains top performance.

"If Evinrude/Johnson XD100, Evinrude Direct Injection, or Evinrude/Johnson XD25 oils are not available, you must use an oil that meets NMMA TC-W3 certification standards.

"IMPORTANT: If your EMM has been proframmed for Evinrude/Johnson XD100, DO NOT use any other oil unless in an emergency. If Evinrude/Johnson XD100 is temporarily unavailable, a one-time-only use of an oil that meets NMMA TC-W3 certification standards is allowed. If you discontinue using Evinrude/Johnson XD100, you MUST first return to your dealer to have the EMM reprogrammed back to the original factory setting.

"IMPORTANT: Failure to follow oil specifications could void the engine warranty if a lubrication-related failure occurs."

jimh posted 03-03-2004 02:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The Evinrude all-synthetic oil XD-100 oil will retail at about $25/gallon (maybe $22/gallon in bulk). If you compare your usage (half as much) with normal premium TCW-III rated oils that sell for typically the same price, it could be a good choice for an E-TEC™.
First Thought posted 03-03-2004 08:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for First Thought  Send Email to First Thought     
Mike:
Sounds like things are going good with your repower project. As you search for that sweet spot in your prop setup you might want to add a few other variables into the confusion. Don't lose your hole shot, in our waters it can really make a difference in being able to get on plane quickly and as an earlier post said the ability to stay on plane at low speeds is important. When that summer thunder boomer kicks up and the wind clocks around from the west and the water goes to a stiff chop you won't be able to run at speed without getting beat to death but you will want to stay on plane. Also, if you are even considering removing your kicker you need to do some test runs with it off. You might be surprised the difference getting 30-40 pounds out makes. Have fun.
Mike Brantley posted 03-04-2004 12:32 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Thanks, Buddy. Definitely will be boating without the kicker this weekend, as the thing won't start and will be left at home until I get it running.

Meanwhile, I just called Bombardier technical support at 1-847-689-7090 with a propeller size question. Bob at Bombardier confirmed for me that my motor uses regular V4 gearcase propellers. Anything specified to work on OMC/Bombardier 60 to 70 hp 4-strokes or 60 to 115 (or maybe he said 150?) hp 3-cylinder models will work. That confirms what Nick and the rest of us have been assuming (and what I couldn't confirm from my manual or my OEM propeller packaging).

Also, Jody Fleet at Michigan Wheel's customer support office responded to an e-mail query with this information: "013030 is a SS Michigan Wheel prop. †It fits a 45 to 75 HP Large Gearcase 3 cyl. Evinrude motor, 1994 & newer. †It is a thru hub exhaust, 13tooth spline. There is also a Rapture prop that may work depending on how low your RPM's are, part # 993104. †This is a 13 1/4 x 17 ss prop with the exchangable hub system, hub system part # 106. †There is one other prop that may fit. †It is a Ballistic part # 335031, this is a 13 1/2 x 17 ss prop with the rubber hub bushing. Michigan Match SS is generally good for work boats, Ballistic and Rapture for pleasure type boats. †Ballistic may increase speed a little
but is a thinner blade. †The Rapture is thicker and more durable."

The number "013030" above refers to the part number for that eBay prop that Nick pointed out. There were no bids at $195 when the auction closed, so presumably it is still for sale and may reapper on eBay. Meanwhile, I'll be
checking out the new and used selection at a local propeller shop tomorrow. Upon closer inspection, my OEM 14 x 17 is a bit more damaged than I thought, so it needs some attention to its nicked edges.

Bigshot posted 03-04-2004 12:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
That is why I hate alum props. One scuffing on the sea floor and it is chewed to hell. That prop was too expensive that I showed on E-Bay but is the size I believe you will want. Keep your eyes peeled and so will I. I used to have about 3 of them, but all are gone to feloow members here over the last couple years.
Mike Brantley posted 03-05-2004 04:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Thanks for helping me shop, Nick! I purchased a new stainless, polished wheel from a local propeller guru (Tillman's Propeller Service in Mobile) on the recommendation of my trusted mechanic. What I got was 13.25 x 17, and it is cupped. The smaller diameter should make the RPMs go up, but the cupping might bring them down. Will there be a net gain or loss, or will performance stay roughly the same? I'll get my answer in the next couple of days, provided I can find a short space of time to put the boat into the water during what is shaping up to be a busy weekend.

With the cupping and the different material (stainless instead of aluminum), I have introduced enough variables to have me uncertain of the outcome. I am almost certain the OEM prop is not cupped. But swapping this new one out for another can happen if needed, since I am not likely to "scratch" the stainless one as I did the aluminum prop that I am now stuck with as my backup prop.

I'll report my findings and continued experiences with the E-Tec motor. I also may have an answer soon how much difficulty and cost will be involved in getting a local Evurinrude dealer to reprogram my EMM for XD100 oil. I'd like to find someone who will do it while I wait.

Moe posted 03-05-2004 04:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Just curious... what brand and model prop, Mike?

Look forward to seeing the results of your weekend testing.

--
Moe

Mike Brantley posted 03-05-2004 04:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Hey, Moe! (By the way, thanks for e-mailing those performance graphics. I haven't been close to my home e-mail account to acknowledge receipt.)

The brand is Power Tech, based in Shreveport, La. The model is OM140RED3R15P, and the price was $275. Here's a link to the manufacturer's Web page on this model:

http://www.ptprop.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=68_69_75&products_id=459

I have seen positive reference made to this brand in previous posts in the forum, but I have no prior experience with them. I'll let you know how I make out.

Mike Brantley posted 03-05-2004 04:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Actually, I may have pointed you to the counter-rotation version, but you get the idea.
Moe posted 03-05-2004 05:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
Thanks, Mike!
Mike Brantley posted 03-07-2004 10:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Saturday was a beautiful day around Mobile for boating. Unfortunately, I wasnít able to go boating Saturday. Fortunately, today was just about as nice, and I had time to put the boat in the water for a few hours this afternoon.

I was by myself, which means my wife wasnít around to see me launch the boat without plugging in the drain plug. I was glad to have a Boston Whaler, and I turned to say as much to the people launching their Whaler at the adjacent ramp, but they were already on their way to points unknown. So I boarded my Sweet Cheryl, put the plug in, turned on the bilge pump for a minute or so and was on my way. I didnít even get the canvas of my deck shoes wet.

The load was similar to my first so outing with the E-Tec motor. I didnít bring the 30-pound kicker since it wonít start anyway. But I had a few more gallons of gas in my main tank, so that should have balanced out.

I donít think I have the right propeller yet. Running with the new 13.25 x 17 stainless wheel, my top end improved from 33 mph to 34 mph, but RPMs at WOT dropped from 5,700 with just me aboard to 5,500. Thatís at the bottom of the manufacturerís recommended range of 5,500 to 6,000. With anybody else on the boat with me, Iím going to be below the recommended range at max throttle.

On the plus side, I still canít complain about performance. The boat jumps onto plane with just me and the top speed now is the fastest this boat has moved since Iíve owned it. Iím sure with just one of you 150-pound skinny skippers driving, it would fly. As it is, 34 mph is kind of scary for me!

A nice, comfortable fast cruising speed of 25 mph was achieved at 4,200 on the tachometer. I also putted around at displacement speed for a long while, enjoying the view as I spied on some of the yachts at the local marinas.

The new propeller, though smaller in diameter than the original 14 x 17 wheel I started with, is more aggressively cupped. Itís also heavier, being stainless instead of aluminum. I might try the same brand and style in a 13.25 x 15. Iíll talk to the propeller man tomorrow. I do like the polished stainless. I kicked up some mud at one point today, and the propeller still looks perfect. My aluminum prop looks rather chewed up.

Peter posted 03-08-2004 08:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Mike,

According to the propeller calculator, this setup is producing -2.5 percent slip. An answer like that suggests that although the pitch is nominally stated to be 17 inches by PowerTech, it is actually performing like a uncupped propeller with 18 to 19 inches of pitch.

There has been discussion in this forum some months ago about the pitch designation of PowerTech propellers because an extremely low or negative slip result was obtained when plugging performance numbers into the prop calculator with another's reported performance data. It seems apparent now that PowerTech propellers are made with very agressive cupping (OMC used to refer to agressive cupping as "double cupped"). If I recall correctly, PowerTech's website even recommends that for certain of their propellers lines, actually dropping back an inch or two in pitch, and in some cases 3 to 4 inches.

As a rule of thumb, every 1 inch change in pitch should yield approximately 200 RPMs so dropping back to the 15 inch PowerTech (actual pitch of about 17 inches) should get you close to 5900 RPM.

In an attempt to compare apples to apples, the data here suggests to me that if this 50 with the 2.67:1 ratio were turning the small gearcase propellers (less than 11 1/2 to 11 3/4 inch diameter) like your old 50 did, an uncupped 19 inch pitch propeller would be about right, except for, perhaps, a heavily loaded situation.

Bigshot posted 03-08-2004 12:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Before you do ANYTHING....how high is that engine mounted? If she is on the transom, bring it up 2 holes and check again.
Bigshot posted 03-08-2004 12:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for Bigshot  Send Email to Bigshot     
Looked at pics and I would go up at least 1 hole. Second how MUCH are you trimming this thing? Do you run it up til it blows out and then bring it down till it grabs again? If not, you are not getting the full rpms and again, i would NOT do ANYTHING to that propo until you try these 2 tips or have already. Once you touch it....you stuck with it.
Mike Brantley posted 03-08-2004 12:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Hey, Nick. The motor is already mounted with the cavitation plate an inch or so above the keel, right where I told my guy to put it. Raising it more will require new holes in the transom, my mechanic tells me, which I'd rather not do. Trying a different propeller seems like the easier route, especially while I have time to swap this one at no charge. Raising the engine and then trying a different prop would add time and expense to the project.
Mike Brantley posted 03-08-2004 12:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
You're typing as fast as me. :) Yeah, I'm trimming the motor out for maximum speed and RPMs as you describe.

On a brighter side, my new sonar/fishfinder (not really looking for fish -- just the bottom) that I installed this weekend is working perfectly.

Mike Brantley posted 03-08-2004 05:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Here's what's happening: My local propeller guru believes I will lose too much performance going down to a 15 pitch, so he suggests taking some of the cup out of the 13.25 x 17 Power Tech wheel and also reducing the diameter by 1/8 inch. I don't know how this is done. It's all magic to me. But he said I should try this, and if it still doesn't work out we can still try the 15 pitch. Basically, he's willing to do whatever is necesseary to make sure my boat is set up with the correct propeller. I like this fellow. He asked me if increasing RPM by 300 would make me happy, and I told him it would.

It will be the weekend again before I can try this new variation. A perfect scenario would be the ability to test a variety of wheels all on the same day, but that's not very practical, I don't guess.

Thanks, all, as always.

LHG posted 03-08-2004 05:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
I would not alter the prop. Leave that to the prop designers and engineers, not repairmen. Sounds like the guy is trying to avoid exchanging props. Reducing cupping will reduce holding power. Go for the next lower pitch in the same series, unaltered. Reducing pitch does not reduce speed, and only allows the engine to rev higher. Sometimes this even produces more top end. You should get 35 out of that rig.

As has been noted before, these aggressive performance props often exhibit greater than marked pitch, especially if not being run at design height.

Mike Brantley posted 03-08-2004 06:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Larry, now I'm as uncertain as ever. I don't think he would mind swapping the prop for a 15 pitch -- at least he said he wouldn't. He seems to honestly think a 15 is wrong.

But I don't know. He's closed now. I will call him the minute he opens Tuesday and find out if he's started altering the prop, and if not see if we shouldn't try the 15 first and then alter the 17 only if the 15 doesn't work out. Otherwise, if the altered 17 doesn't work well, he will be giving me the 15 and being stuck with a "unique" 17.

If he got really industrious and started work on the 17 already, I might as well try it.

LHG posted 03-08-2004 07:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
Why do people alter props? It's cheaper, but never as successful, as buying a new, correct one! Since you are entitled to a new one, I'd demand it. If that doesn't work, try another brand.
Peter posted 03-08-2004 07:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Take Larry's advice. Try the same brand/model propeller, PowerTech I assume, but in the 15 inch pitch size and see where you come out before modifying the 17.

I noticed from your pictures that you have a bimini top. Were you running with that up or down?

Mike Brantley posted 03-08-2004 07:42 PM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Thanks. No bimini deployed -- just folded on the stiff braces as pictured. I will tell him not to alter the prop if it is not too late.
Moe posted 03-08-2004 09:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for Moe  Send Email to Moe     
I'll vote for trying the 15 first too.

DaveNJ posted 03-09-2004 07:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for DaveNJ  Send Email to DaveNJ     
Mike -

I would recommend closing this thread and starting a new one.

Mike Brantley posted 03-09-2004 08:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Hey, Dave... This repowering project is coming to a swift conclusion, and I imagine this thread is about to go dormant anyway.
gabollini posted 04-29-2008 10:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for gabollini  Send Email to gabollini     
hey mike-

Very pretty boat. Learned a lot from your thread on repower w/ 50 e-tec. I'm assuming yours is an 2004 or 2005. Wondering, after owning it for a couple of years, how the motor is holding up and any service issues you've had. Would be interested--I just bought a new e-tec 60 as a repower on my 15 BW SS. Thought long and hard about a 70 yamaha, but went w/ the e-tec in hopes that it would be less maintenance and trouble free. Over the long haul of 3 years or so, would be interested in your impressions on your 04/05 motor.

gabe

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