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Author Topic:   OUTRAGE 22 Re-Power

stanlimm posted 08-05-2004 10:42 PM ET (US)
I have just been informed by the shop that the 1988 225-HP Johnson on my Outrage 22 is ready to go to the mooring site in the big blue. Any suggestions on re-powering choices? Has anybody done one recently? What manufacturer and horsepower?
Thanks. Any words of advice kindly accepted.
Stan
jimh posted 08-05-2004 11:29 PM ET (US)
There have never been so many choices.
You can pick single or twin. Low-Emission or High-Emission. 2-Stroke or 4-Stroke. Carburetor or EFI or DFI.
I'd get a pair of 115-HP 4-strokes.
Peter posted 08-06-2004 07:47 AM ET (US)
My thoughts for the 22 Outrage are a minimum of 200 HP and preferably from a single large block (3+ liter) V6 like you have now. I also like to keep the transom as light as possible and so unless you go significantly offshore frequently, I would not do twins.

2-stroke engines that fit the above criteria are: Evinrude (DI) 200 or 225; Mercury EFI 200 or 225; Mercury Optimax 200 or 225.

4-stroke choices are: Yamaha F200 or F225, Suzuki DF200 or DF225.
If you can get a few more hours out of your existing 225, I suggest you take a serious look at the upcoming Evinrude E-TEC 225 before you make your decision. This is the next generation of the Evinrude direct injection. If they are everything that Evinrude says they are, they will be amazing. I have a pair of the Bombardier built Evinrude direct injection engines on my Whaler and they are great. They have exceeded my expectations
Plotman posted 08-06-2004 09:27 AM ET (US)
I have a pair of 2-stroke Yamaha 130s (same as the 115 except for carb jets) on my 1991 Outrage 22. I also have a 1987 version of the same boat with a single merc 200, that will soon be for sale.
I love having the twins, and I would go this route again in a heartbeat. The boat is a touch stern heavy (I also have a stern seat), buy not uncomfortably so. The newer splash well design keeps the feet dry, even with the slightly stern heavy static trim. With both engines it leaps on to a plane.
If necessary, I can plane on one engine easily. The hole shot certainly takes a while, but it gets up fine. Last night with 3 adults and 2 kids (probably 700lbs of people) and a full fuel load, I topped out at 35mph+ @ 5100 rpm on one engine.
Obviously, at this point, your only real option for twins on a classic 22 is carbed-2 stroke, or the 115 optimax, which merc says is only 25lbs heavier than the classic 2-stroke.
Plotman posted 08-06-2004 09:31 AM ET (US)
I take back what I said about weight limiting the use of 4 strokes - I just checked the new offerings and the Merc 115 efi 4 stroke is 10 lbs more than the 115 Optimax. I'm going to assume that these weights come down in the future as well.
I'd probably think about taking out the stern seat or adding some weight up in the anchor locker for balance if I went this route...
David
stanlimm posted 08-06-2004 09:54 AM ET (US)
Thank you all for the input..Spoke to BW tech service this AM. The spec on the '88 22' Outrage is from 90hp to 240hp.
Since I will be using this boat primarily in the ICW on the west coast of FL from Tampa to Venice where most of the time the max is 25MPH and usually 6 MPH I will prob go with a 175 either Evinrude/Johnson, Mercury or Yamaha depending on what the shop can get the best price. Since I am now the New/Used boat Manager for them, I will get the dealer cost.
Stan
AQUANUT posted 08-06-2004 10:11 AM ET (US)

stanlimm?
why would you go with a mercury XR6 175 on a vessel that is rated for a much higher horsepower rating?
I can get onboard with using an 150hp xr6 due to cost and hull restrictions
but if it isn't a factor, since you get dealer cost,
why not the 200hp?

justa mercury/yamaha/honda riggin fool here
doing time @ a boston whaler dealership
AQUANUT OUT!
jimp posted 08-06-2004 11:06 AM ET (US)
stanlimm -
Just a caution on the 175. Resale. You'll likely sell the boat sometime and a 200 or 225 will likely be more attractive to buyers. Otherwise, the 175 should run fine.
JimP
linust posted 08-06-2004 01:36 PM ET (US)
jimp makes a really good point on resale--when searching for my Revenge, I passed on one with a relatively new 175--it wouldn't be cost effective to up the performance from that (that and it wasn't a WD). Don't know about J/E, but Merc's 175 is an Opti--at retail, it is only about $500 more to go up to the Opti 200, $1200 to go to the Opti 225. On an $11k to $12k purchase amortized over say 10 years, that's $10/month.
One more thought: For a given performance level (i.e. cruise at 30 mph) you need a certain amount of power. Whether you extract that from a 175 or a 225, the amount of power you use is going to be the same. For the 30 mph example, let's say you need 125 hp. The 175 will run at 70% of its max rated output to deliver this while the 225 will run at only 55% of its max. I've made a lot of simplifying assumptions in here, but the point is, the 175 will work much harder while the 225 will live far longer to deliver the same level of performance.
I'm convinced that my need to repower was due in large part to this -- the puny Laser "220" (in later years, sold as a 175 EFI) was simply overworked on my Revenge 22 WT WD
stanlimm posted 08-06-2004 09:49 PM ET (US)
Linus: You make some good points. Was not in touch with the office today, but they were getting me prices on a range of HP and Mfg. Not concerned about resale, have young grandson who will inherit. Can't wait to get him out on the water.
Stan
mustang7nh posted 08-07-2004 09:01 PM ET (US)
Just because you have 250 horse on the back doesn't mean you have to use them. No one regrets more horsepower even if they never get past 75% throttle. My choice would be 250 ETEC if they live up to expectations. Best of luck.
whaler131 posted 08-07-2004 11:05 PM ET (US)
I have a 1988 22 outrage, it had an old 1988 200 merc on it. I put on a 2002 evinrude 200. Have now used it two years and LOVE it. it works great with myself in the boat or with 7 guys fishing. Even had the tank full. I have a 9.9 kicker baught the same time. Just do not under power the boat!
David Ratusnik posted 08-08-2004 10:03 PM ET (US)
1986 Outrage '22- repowered with a 200 EFI Yamaha. Repower approx one year ago. Power, price, MPG, reliability- Sweet. Fished Wednesday, pulled kids on various watersports this weekend-- the engine is flawless. 17' pitch SS prop- flat out fast out of the hole--to 5500 rpm. I like the reliability of EFI tech versus what I've heard about the DFI stuff. Knock on wood- blows up less often. .02 David
Peter posted 08-08-2004 10:21 PM ET (US)
Stan, if the plan is to have the grandson inherit, then the bigger block V6 is the way to go. I forgot about Hondas in the 4-stroke category (not much presence around here), although it looks like the Japanese brands are going to be even more expensive than they are now.
larimore posted 08-08-2004 10:50 PM ET (US)
Forget the 175 !!!
If you want low horsepower get the 200 Yamaha minimum...
I had a 1989 Johnson 225, plenty of problems.
Replaced it with a 1999 Yamaha 225. Came with new guages, shifter, prop - No problems. A much better engine. Got a great price $11k and I sold my Johnson for $2500.
For resale, you would do better with the 225. If you ski or tow toys - Get the 225.
I don't know how much weight and $$$ you save with a 200 - Probably not much.
David Ratusnik posted 08-09-2004 02:00 PM ET (US)
Stan- The current (03 in my case) 200 EFI Yamaha weighs 452 lbs.-- light in comparison to other V6's, very light in comparison to the 4 strokes. Unless you are running an Outrage dedicated to offshore fishing, the 200 hp is plenty--pulls slalom, wakeboard, and tubes just fine. Use a
17 pitch prop.
200 is the biggest EFI V6 Yamaha makes these days. The 225 and up are all HPDI or 4 strokes.
By the way, I converted my old OMC gauges to Yamaha analogs, not digitals. Reliable and will likely outlast the engine. Too many negative stories about failures with the expensive digitals- check other boating forums. If you go the Yamaha route, e mail me and I'll give you a surplus source where you can buy analog or digital gauges for 1/2 price.
I repowered from a 225 Johnson carbed. In addition to the EFI full savings, dropping the horsepower should save you approx 4 gallons per hour in gas consumption. ($7.00/hr).
Good Luck David
TheWhisky posted 10-11-2004 01:13 AM ET (US)
Stanlimm, what was the final engine/propeller choice?
I am getting a Guardian 22 and I think is the same boat as yours and I having the same predicament...
BIGSTICK posted 10-21-2004 02:08 PM ET (US)
Whiskey,
I have a 22' Guardian with a 250hp Johnson V-8. It runs great but sucks down the fuel. WOT about 48mph, can't remember the rpm. Cruise around 4200 rpm at 38mph. I average about 1 MPG. Good luck with yours!
c_mccann posted 10-22-2004 02:18 PM ET (US)
Had a Yammie 250 2-stroke Saltwater series. 700 hours, burnt piston, mechanics all said par for the course for that motor. Have a Honda 225, love it, not too many hours yet, but all my other Hondas stacked up the hours no problemo. I am a 4-stroke proponet, I have had zero down time with my last 4 4-strokes- over 2000 hours total, and one was hevily abused, one was submerged three times- still clicking away. (you can't count down time for operator error, even if he can't remember!) If I had to pick a 4-stroke horsepower for your boat, I'd go with a 175. The 200-225 range gets too stern heavy and the extra ponies aren't needed.

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Author	Topic: OUTRAGE 22 Re-Power
stanlimm	posted 08-05-2004 10:42 PM ET (US) I have just been informed by the shop that the 1988 225-HP Johnson on my Outrage 22 is ready to go to the mooring site in the big blue. Any suggestions on re-powering choices? Has anybody done one recently? What manufacturer and horsepower? Thanks. Any words of advice kindly accepted. Stan
jimh	posted 08-05-2004 11:29 PM ET (US) There have never been so many choices. You can pick single or twin. Low-Emission or High-Emission. 2-Stroke or 4-Stroke. Carburetor or EFI or DFI. I'd get a pair of 115-HP 4-strokes.
Peter	posted 08-06-2004 07:47 AM ET (US) My thoughts for the 22 Outrage are a minimum of 200 HP and preferably from a single large block (3+ liter) V6 like you have now. I also like to keep the transom as light as possible and so unless you go significantly offshore frequently, I would not do twins. 2-stroke engines that fit the above criteria are: Evinrude (DI) 200 or 225; Mercury EFI 200 or 225; Mercury Optimax 200 or 225. 4-stroke choices are: Yamaha F200 or F225, Suzuki DF200 or DF225. If you can get a few more hours out of your existing 225, I suggest you take a serious look at the upcoming Evinrude E-TEC 225 before you make your decision. This is the next generation of the Evinrude direct injection. If they are everything that Evinrude says they are, they will be amazing. I have a pair of the Bombardier built Evinrude direct injection engines on my Whaler and they are great. They have exceeded my expectations
Plotman	posted 08-06-2004 09:27 AM ET (US) I have a pair of 2-stroke Yamaha 130s (same as the 115 except for carb jets) on my 1991 Outrage 22. I also have a 1987 version of the same boat with a single merc 200, that will soon be for sale. I love having the twins, and I would go this route again in a heartbeat. The boat is a touch stern heavy (I also have a stern seat), buy not uncomfortably so. The newer splash well design keeps the feet dry, even with the slightly stern heavy static trim. With both engines it leaps on to a plane. If necessary, I can plane on one engine easily. The hole shot certainly takes a while, but it gets up fine. Last night with 3 adults and 2 kids (probably 700lbs of people) and a full fuel load, I topped out at 35mph+ @ 5100 rpm on one engine. Obviously, at this point, your only real option for twins on a classic 22 is carbed-2 stroke, or the 115 optimax, which merc says is only 25lbs heavier than the classic 2-stroke.
Plotman	posted 08-06-2004 09:31 AM ET (US) I take back what I said about weight limiting the use of 4 strokes - I just checked the new offerings and the Merc 115 efi 4 stroke is 10 lbs more than the 115 Optimax. I'm going to assume that these weights come down in the future as well. I'd probably think about taking out the stern seat or adding some weight up in the anchor locker for balance if I went this route... David
stanlimm	posted 08-06-2004 09:54 AM ET (US) Thank you all for the input..Spoke to BW tech service this AM. The spec on the '88 22' Outrage is from 90hp to 240hp. Since I will be using this boat primarily in the ICW on the west coast of FL from Tampa to Venice where most of the time the max is 25MPH and usually 6 MPH I will prob go with a 175 either Evinrude/Johnson, Mercury or Yamaha depending on what the shop can get the best price. Since I am now the New/Used boat Manager for them, I will get the dealer cost. Stan
AQUANUT	posted 08-06-2004 10:11 AM ET (US) stanlimm? why would you go with a mercury XR6 175 on a vessel that is rated for a much higher horsepower rating? I can get onboard with using an 150hp xr6 due to cost and hull restrictions but if it isn't a factor, since you get dealer cost, why not the 200hp? justa mercury/yamaha/honda riggin fool here doing time @ a boston whaler dealership AQUANUT OUT!
jimp	posted 08-06-2004 11:06 AM ET (US) stanlimm - Just a caution on the 175. Resale. You'll likely sell the boat sometime and a 200 or 225 will likely be more attractive to buyers. Otherwise, the 175 should run fine. JimP
linust	posted 08-06-2004 01:36 PM ET (US) jimp makes a really good point on resale--when searching for my Revenge, I passed on one with a relatively new 175--it wouldn't be cost effective to up the performance from that (that and it wasn't a WD). Don't know about J/E, but Merc's 175 is an Opti--at retail, it is only about $500 more to go up to the Opti 200, $1200 to go to the Opti 225. On an $11k to $12k purchase amortized over say 10 years, that's $10/month. One more thought: For a given performance level (i.e. cruise at 30 mph) you need a certain amount of power. Whether you extract that from a 175 or a 225, the amount of power you use is going to be the same. For the 30 mph example, let's say you need 125 hp. The 175 will run at 70% of its max rated output to deliver this while the 225 will run at only 55% of its max. I've made a lot of simplifying assumptions in here, but the point is, the 175 will work much harder while the 225 will live far longer to deliver the same level of performance. I'm convinced that my need to repower was due in large part to this -- the puny Laser "220" (in later years, sold as a 175 EFI) was simply overworked on my Revenge 22 WT WD
stanlimm	posted 08-06-2004 09:49 PM ET (US) Linus: You make some good points. Was not in touch with the office today, but they were getting me prices on a range of HP and Mfg. Not concerned about resale, have young grandson who will inherit. Can't wait to get him out on the water. Stan
mustang7nh	posted 08-07-2004 09:01 PM ET (US) Just because you have 250 horse on the back doesn't mean you have to use them. No one regrets more horsepower even if they never get past 75% throttle. My choice would be 250 ETEC if they live up to expectations. Best of luck.
whaler131	posted 08-07-2004 11:05 PM ET (US) I have a 1988 22 outrage, it had an old 1988 200 merc on it. I put on a 2002 evinrude 200. Have now used it two years and LOVE it. it works great with myself in the boat or with 7 guys fishing. Even had the tank full. I have a 9.9 kicker baught the same time. Just do not under power the boat!
David Ratusnik	posted 08-08-2004 10:03 PM ET (US) 1986 Outrage '22- repowered with a 200 EFI Yamaha. Repower approx one year ago. Power, price, MPG, reliability- Sweet. Fished Wednesday, pulled kids on various watersports this weekend-- the engine is flawless. 17' pitch SS prop- flat out fast out of the hole--to 5500 rpm. I like the reliability of EFI tech versus what I've heard about the DFI stuff. Knock on wood- blows up less often. .02 David
Peter	posted 08-08-2004 10:21 PM ET (US) Stan, if the plan is to have the grandson inherit, then the bigger block V6 is the way to go. I forgot about Hondas in the 4-stroke category (not much presence around here), although it looks like the Japanese brands are going to be even more expensive than they are now.
larimore	posted 08-08-2004 10:50 PM ET (US) Forget the 175 !!! If you want low horsepower get the 200 Yamaha minimum... I had a 1989 Johnson 225, plenty of problems. Replaced it with a 1999 Yamaha 225. Came with new guages, shifter, prop - No problems. A much better engine. Got a great price $11k and I sold my Johnson for $2500. For resale, you would do better with the 225. If you ski or tow toys - Get the 225. I don't know how much weight and $$$ you save with a 200 - Probably not much.
David Ratusnik	posted 08-09-2004 02:00 PM ET (US) Stan- The current (03 in my case) 200 EFI Yamaha weighs 452 lbs.-- light in comparison to other V6's, very light in comparison to the 4 strokes. Unless you are running an Outrage dedicated to offshore fishing, the 200 hp is plenty--pulls slalom, wakeboard, and tubes just fine. Use a 17 pitch prop. 200 is the biggest EFI V6 Yamaha makes these days. The 225 and up are all HPDI or 4 strokes. By the way, I converted my old OMC gauges to Yamaha analogs, not digitals. Reliable and will likely outlast the engine. Too many negative stories about failures with the expensive digitals- check other boating forums. If you go the Yamaha route, e mail me and I'll give you a surplus source where you can buy analog or digital gauges for 1/2 price. I repowered from a 225 Johnson carbed. In addition to the EFI full savings, dropping the horsepower should save you approx 4 gallons per hour in gas consumption. ($7.00/hr). Good Luck David
TheWhisky	posted 10-11-2004 01:13 AM ET (US) Stanlimm, what was the final engine/propeller choice? I am getting a Guardian 22 and I think is the same boat as yours and I having the same predicament...
BIGSTICK	posted 10-21-2004 02:08 PM ET (US) Whiskey, I have a 22' Guardian with a 250hp Johnson V-8. It runs great but sucks down the fuel. WOT about 48mph, can't remember the rpm. Cruise around 4200 rpm at 38mph. I average about 1 MPG. Good luck with yours!
c_mccann	posted 10-22-2004 02:18 PM ET (US) Had a Yammie 250 2-stroke Saltwater series. 700 hours, burnt piston, mechanics all said par for the course for that motor. Have a Honda 225, love it, not too many hours yet, but all my other Hondas stacked up the hours no problemo. I am a 4-stroke proponet, I have had zero down time with my last 4 4-strokes- over 2000 hours total, and one was hevily abused, one was submerged three times- still clicking away. (you can't count down time for operator error, even if he can't remember!) If I had to pick a 4-stroke horsepower for your boat, I'd go with a 175. The 200-225 range gets too stern heavy and the extra ponies aren't needed.