Low Emission 225-HP Outboard Price Comparison

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Author Topic:   Low Emission 225-HP Outboard Price Comparison

jimh posted 12-31-2004 10:03 AM ET (US)
There are eight (or more) different models of 225-HP outboard motors available currently which meet emission standards. This makes this horsepower level a good point to compare pricing, weight, and displacement
Please refer to my article in the REFERENCE section:
Low-Emission 225-HP Outboard Price Comparison
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/loEmission225.html
Use this thread for further discussion or comments on the various engines presented in this article.
seahorse posted 12-31-2004 11:58 AM ET (US)
It might be more beneficial to publish the "street prices" on the outboards, as no one buys at the manuafacturers' inflated list prices.
For Yamaha and Evinrude references go to:
http://www.edsmarinesuperstore.com/evinrude.htm
http://www.edsmarinesuperstore.com/yamaha.htm
http://www.edsmarinesuperstore.com/mercury.htm
Verado's are not listed
jimh posted 12-31-2004 12:34 PM ET (US)
That is a good suggestion. I just need someone to gather the prices and email them to me. I will append them to the table. Please cite where they came from, too. There was just a pointer for a website that had Verado pricing listed, but I'll be darned if I remember where. Anyone recall?
kglinz posted 12-31-2004 12:50 PM ET (US)
Here's Verado prices from Stevens Marine in Portland. http://www.stevensmarine.com/mercury.php
jimh posted 12-31-2004 02:22 PM ET (US)
Added "deal" pricing. Still need Honda and Suzuki "deal" prices. Any suggestions?
Peter posted 12-31-2004 03:57 PM ET (US)
How about implementation prices (motor, controls, cables, gauges, rigging labor)? If something like that was used for comparison an even greater gap between the Verado and just about everything else shows its ugly head. While not street prices, you can get a general idea of what the gap is by comparing the Verado option against the base engine on any of the boats at Whaler.com or at some of the Genmar sites like Wellcraft.com.
For example, from Whaler.com list price for 220 Dauntless with:
Price Diff. from lowest cost 225
Single Optimax 225 $ 54,508 -
Single Yamamerc F225 $ 55,512 $ 949
Single Verado 225 $ 58,510 $4,002

From Wellcraft.com, list price of the Coastal 252 model, with:
Price Diff. from lowest cost 225
Single Yamaha F225 $ 61,500 -
Single Optimax 225 $ 62,035 $ 535
Single E-Tec 225 $ 62,500 $ 1,000
Single Verado 225 $ 66,165 $ 4,665
Haven't found any boat manufacturers having an OEM deals with Honda or Suzuki with published list prices.
jimh posted 12-31-2004 10:25 PM ET (US)
I think Peter's comparison above makes the point about price that Mercury was making in its case: the F225 Yamaha four-stroke is the cheapest option on the Genmar boat! That $4,600 differential relative to the Verado is a very steep price to pay. Apparently Genmar has made a much better deal with Yamaha for its engines than it was able to make for the Mercury Verado.
I know that no one really pays MSRP for an engine, but you have to start the price comparison somewhere. I do notice that with the "deal" prices coming in, it looks like the other motors are being discounted much more than the Verado.
whalerfran posted 01-01-2005 07:39 AM ET (US)
What may also contribute to the lower price on the Yamaha F225 is the surplus of such engines as a result of the relative lack of demand with the imminent introduction of the F250. As further evidence, the F225 is the only six cylinder Yamaha four-stroke that the manufacturer is providing with a free extended warranty from January through April. The extended warranty is also provided on the six cylinder HPDI's.
Peter posted 01-01-2005 08:19 AM ET (US)
I made a mistake, the Wellcraft prices are for the 252 Fisherman model, not the Coastal model. For another data point, on the 252 Coastal model, the Yamaha F225 is not the cheapest option. The list prices for the 252 Coastal with the following power options are:
Mercury Optimax 225...$64,590....$ --
Evinrude E-TEC 225....$64,710....$120
Yamaha 4-stroke F225..$64,910....$320
Mercury Verado 225....$68,720....$4,130
The point I make here is that the implemented price is probably a better indication of the difference in cost unless you are repowering from Verado to Verado which is unlikely at this point. Note: the difference in cost between the F225 and E-TEC 225 options is consistent with the street price differences shown in the table.
Interestingly, the 4-stroke motors seem to be priced at $24 per pound and the 2-stroke motors at $26+ per pound. On a per pound basis, the 4-strokes are a bargain. ;)
jimh posted 01-01-2005 09:52 AM ET (US)
I found a listing for Honda pricing online, but it is a bit out of date. (See Hyperlink for details). I am still looking for Suzuki prices and more recent Honda prices.
I think it is entirely reasonable to compare the price of outboard motors as part of new boat package deals because the majority of new outboard motors are sold that way. The pricing of outboards on the transom of a new boat is probably the most competitive marketplace. The volume for loose outboard motors from dealers is only a fraction of the new boat volume. I think it is safe to say it's about an 80:20 split.
jimh posted 01-01-2005 09:56 AM ET (US)
Added columns to table for HP/L and LB/HP.
wwknapp posted 01-01-2005 12:14 PM ET (US)
In the case of outboards on a new boat you have to factor in the margin on the boat as well. Particularily with Mercury controlled transoms I'd expect that they would use a little of the boat margin to try and bring the prices more in line. That seems to be the case looking at the Boston Whaler example.
In addition during the building of a new boat if the motor is known a lot can be prebuilt that favors that motor.
The true cost is more likely to be found in repower costs. Particularily for any mods to the boat that a particular motor requires. This would be particularily true for this group of Boston Whaler owners, a great many of which would be more likely looking at repower.
jimh:
If you want to get yourself a Verado, that's just fine, go do it. Be sure and take photos of the conversion process. A small number of the folks here might be interested.
You have converted these forums to a annex of the Mercury sales/promotions department, so I assume that's what you are up to. These forums are supposed to be about Boston Whalers. Of all sizes.
Walt
whalerfran posted 01-01-2005 05:27 PM ET (US)
Walt, Jim certainly does not need me to defend him, but I must disagree with your conclusion about his promoting Mercury here. In my view, this thread is a welcome addition to the reference section on engines. That section has been an invaluable tool for me and members of my Whaler-fanatic family when we have repowered or bought new BW's. I am sure other readers have benefited in the same way. What the section provides is information on every manufacturer's offering in a particular hp range, not just Mercury's. This is the sort of information I am grateful to Jim for presenting on this website. Fran
SuburbanBoy posted 01-01-2005 06:18 PM ET (US)
If you subscribe to the old saying, "there is no substitute for cubic inches", Mercury is in trouble. That said, the thought of all electronic controls is enticing. But it must be reliable. In addition to all of Jim's cataloged specs what the table can't relate (yet) is how all of this new tech will hold up. There will be winners and losers as time moves on.
sub
Peter posted 01-01-2005 06:45 PM ET (US)
I think that saying goes "there is no replacement for displacement."
rehenderson posted 01-01-2005 10:50 PM ET (US)
Ed's Marine has the 25" Johnson 225 EFI 4 stroke for $11,000.
wwknapp posted 01-02-2005 01:31 AM ET (US)
whalerfran:
The reference section on engines contains two tables with a little info on engines from 2002. That is if you are considering a engine between 70 and 250 hp. No info on engines below that. And it seems to me that my computer is displaying that it's 2005, not 2002. So, I kind of think those prices are probably not right. It says there are no Johnson branded 4 strokes. (I imagined that pretty one I saw on a boat today). The models listed don't match the 2005 lineup.
It also contains a section on E-Tec. Plus this latest thread. Which, if anything should have brought out just how little a list using MSRP means.
Somehow I don't see that as covering engines very well at all. I've certainly got two engines for my Montauk that are not covered. Many engines used on Boston Whalers are not covered.
Sure, by searching the forum I can find more comments and opinion covering a range of engine types. But the reference section is a bit neglected looking and far from complete.
And note, jimh is not covering all Mercury, only Verado. This thread was started as a attempt to justify the Verado prices. So, how about a little balance? Two months of continuous threads on another model? Just for a change. Maybe even get out of the rut of only discussing 225 hp engines.
It is a group that's interested in Boston Whalers. All of them and presumably all parts of them. Or so the intro fluff claims.
Walt
seahorse posted 01-02-2005 07:57 AM ET (US)

Jim,
The January issue of Trailer Boats Magazine has the specs for 360 outboards, as is stated on the front cover, as well as MSRP.
Estero posted 01-02-2005 11:29 AM ET (US)
JIm-
here's a link to a Suzuki DF225 at Bayracer Marine, priced at $12,900.
http://www.bayracermarine.com/table.asp
jimh posted 01-02-2005 03:02 PM ET (US)
Walt--You can feel completely free to collect and organize information about other power ranges of outboard motors. It just happens that at 225-HP there are a large number of different models available. Also, I happen to be more interested myself in engines in this horsepower range. It may be that at other horsepowers you could find this many models and manufacturers, but I don't know that for certain. Again, feel free to collect and organize the information that is of interest to you. You should not depend on me or this website to provide precisely the collection of information that is most interesting to you. If you are strongly interested in outboard motors of smaller horsepower, I would encourage you to investigate them. I will even be glad to help you present your information here, as part of the website, if you wish. In the past I have collaborated with several others to publish their articles, as you will see in the Reference section.
At the time I published the information on the 2002 model mid-range engines it was rather timely. I don't really see a particular advantage to removing the information from the website. Because I collected and published that information once, I do not feel that I entered into a commitment or obligation to perpetually collect and publish that information in the future. If you want to collect and organize information on 2005 mid-range engines, again, you are free to do so. Also, at the time I collected and published that information, I was myself rather interested in engines in that power range, which was one of the reasons for collecting the information.
I am a little surprised that there is so much rancor about my addition of information to my website. If you really think that adding information (on what I consider to be a related topic) to my website somehow detracts from the value of my website, I would tend to disagree. I think the organization of the price and weight of current 225-HP outboard motors is a reasonably interesting addition to the information on the website.
The purpose of the comparison is not to "justify" the price of a Verado engine. It is merely to list the prices of a number of 225-HP outboard motors and compare them, along with a few other parameters like their displacement and weight. I don't see any particular slant to the information. The engines are even listed in alphabetical order by manufacturer's name. I don't think that constitutes a particular brand preference.
It is very likely that there will be some articles on the website among the many thousands and thousands available here that discuss topics that are not particularly applicable to every individual Boston Whaler owner. However, there is not a requirement for universal appeal in every article. If a discussion of 225-HP motors is not of interest to you personally, I don't think that means it must not be published or is somehow unsuitable for publication on the website.
I also have to observe that unfortunately the topic here has now become cluttered with more discussion about the merits of the topic than the topic itself. It would be greatly appreciated if all of this discussion be moved to the META-forum. The META-Forum is the appropriate place to discuss the forums or the websites themselves.
I plan to delete all of this discussion from this actual topic. Feel free to re-introduce this discussion in the Meta forum.
jimh posted 01-02-2005 03:30 PM ET (US)
Added link to Suzuki prices. Thanks for the pointer.
Added entries for re-badged motors sold under Mercury and Johnson brand name but practically identical to Yamaha and Suzuki models.
alkar posted 01-02-2005 10:45 PM ET (US)
Jim, this is great. Thanks for taking the time to put this together.
I find it interesting that Johnson is selling the Suzuki 225 for prices well below the Suzuki prices. Whatever the reason for the pricing, it looks like a heck of a deal.
Our local Suzuki dealer quoted $29,000 for a rigged pair of counter-rotating Suzuki 250s with their smart gauges and stainless props. (That's about $12,500 for each of the loose motors wihtout goodies or rigging.)
jeffnva posted 08-05-2005 09:24 PM ET (US)
Everything went well with my purchase of a 225 4 stroke Yamaha from Ed's Marine Superstore in Virginia with the exception of Mark in the service department.
He not only ripped me off of my old boat motor he lost a potential customer with a huge list of friends who fish the Chesapeake Bay.
I will certainly leave lots of good (?) feed back for the service department (Mark - Fat ass) on the WEB.
Mark, those two cops that arrived late in the day were for you. Beware guys he is an A-Hole and will rip you off. Ed's get rid of that guy. I will never go back.

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Author	Topic: Low Emission 225-HP Outboard Price Comparison
jimh	posted 12-31-2004 10:03 AM ET (US) There are eight (or more) different models of 225-HP outboard motors available currently which meet emission standards. This makes this horsepower level a good point to compare pricing, weight, and displacement Please refer to my article in the REFERENCE section: Low-Emission 225-HP Outboard Price Comparison http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/loEmission225.html Use this thread for further discussion or comments on the various engines presented in this article.
seahorse	posted 12-31-2004 11:58 AM ET (US) It might be more beneficial to publish the "street prices" on the outboards, as no one buys at the manuafacturers' inflated list prices. For Yamaha and Evinrude references go to: http://www.edsmarinesuperstore.com/evinrude.htm http://www.edsmarinesuperstore.com/yamaha.htm http://www.edsmarinesuperstore.com/mercury.htm Verado's are not listed
jimh	posted 12-31-2004 12:34 PM ET (US) That is a good suggestion. I just need someone to gather the prices and email them to me. I will append them to the table. Please cite where they came from, too. There was just a pointer for a website that had Verado pricing listed, but I'll be darned if I remember where. Anyone recall?
kglinz	posted 12-31-2004 12:50 PM ET (US) Here's Verado prices from Stevens Marine in Portland. http://www.stevensmarine.com/mercury.php
jimh	posted 12-31-2004 02:22 PM ET (US) Added "deal" pricing. Still need Honda and Suzuki "deal" prices. Any suggestions?
Peter	posted 12-31-2004 03:57 PM ET (US) How about implementation prices (motor, controls, cables, gauges, rigging labor)? If something like that was used for comparison an even greater gap between the Verado and just about everything else shows its ugly head. While not street prices, you can get a general idea of what the gap is by comparing the Verado option against the base engine on any of the boats at Whaler.com or at some of the Genmar sites like Wellcraft.com. For example, from Whaler.com list price for 220 Dauntless with: Price Diff. from lowest cost 225 Single Optimax 225 $ 54,508 - Single Yamamerc F225 $ 55,512 $ 949 Single Verado 225 $ 58,510 $4,002 From Wellcraft.com, list price of the Coastal 252 model, with: Price Diff. from lowest cost 225 Single Yamaha F225 $ 61,500 - Single Optimax 225 $ 62,035 $ 535 Single E-Tec 225 $ 62,500 $ 1,000 Single Verado 225 $ 66,165 $ 4,665 Haven't found any boat manufacturers having an OEM deals with Honda or Suzuki with published list prices.
jimh	posted 12-31-2004 10:25 PM ET (US) I think Peter's comparison above makes the point about price that Mercury was making in its case: the F225 Yamaha four-stroke is the cheapest option on the Genmar boat! That $4,600 differential relative to the Verado is a very steep price to pay. Apparently Genmar has made a much better deal with Yamaha for its engines than it was able to make for the Mercury Verado. I know that no one really pays MSRP for an engine, but you have to start the price comparison somewhere. I do notice that with the "deal" prices coming in, it looks like the other motors are being discounted much more than the Verado.
whalerfran	posted 01-01-2005 07:39 AM ET (US) What may also contribute to the lower price on the Yamaha F225 is the surplus of such engines as a result of the relative lack of demand with the imminent introduction of the F250. As further evidence, the F225 is the only six cylinder Yamaha four-stroke that the manufacturer is providing with a free extended warranty from January through April. The extended warranty is also provided on the six cylinder HPDI's.
Peter	posted 01-01-2005 08:19 AM ET (US) I made a mistake, the Wellcraft prices are for the 252 Fisherman model, not the Coastal model. For another data point, on the 252 Coastal model, the Yamaha F225 is not the cheapest option. The list prices for the 252 Coastal with the following power options are: Mercury Optimax 225...$64,590....$ -- Evinrude E-TEC 225....$64,710....$120 Yamaha 4-stroke F225..$64,910....$320 Mercury Verado 225....$68,720....$4,130 The point I make here is that the implemented price is probably a better indication of the difference in cost unless you are repowering from Verado to Verado which is unlikely at this point. Note: the difference in cost between the F225 and E-TEC 225 options is consistent with the street price differences shown in the table. Interestingly, the 4-stroke motors seem to be priced at $24 per pound and the 2-stroke motors at $26+ per pound. On a per pound basis, the 4-strokes are a bargain. ;)
jimh	posted 01-01-2005 09:52 AM ET (US) I found a listing for Honda pricing online, but it is a bit out of date. (See Hyperlink for details). I am still looking for Suzuki prices and more recent Honda prices. I think it is entirely reasonable to compare the price of outboard motors as part of new boat package deals because the majority of new outboard motors are sold that way. The pricing of outboards on the transom of a new boat is probably the most competitive marketplace. The volume for loose outboard motors from dealers is only a fraction of the new boat volume. I think it is safe to say it's about an 80:20 split.
jimh	posted 01-01-2005 09:56 AM ET (US) Added columns to table for HP/L and LB/HP.
wwknapp	posted 01-01-2005 12:14 PM ET (US) In the case of outboards on a new boat you have to factor in the margin on the boat as well. Particularily with Mercury controlled transoms I'd expect that they would use a little of the boat margin to try and bring the prices more in line. That seems to be the case looking at the Boston Whaler example. In addition during the building of a new boat if the motor is known a lot can be prebuilt that favors that motor. The true cost is more likely to be found in repower costs. Particularily for any mods to the boat that a particular motor requires. This would be particularily true for this group of Boston Whaler owners, a great many of which would be more likely looking at repower. jimh: If you want to get yourself a Verado, that's just fine, go do it. Be sure and take photos of the conversion process. A small number of the folks here might be interested. You have converted these forums to a annex of the Mercury sales/promotions department, so I assume that's what you are up to. These forums are supposed to be about Boston Whalers. Of all sizes. Walt
whalerfran	posted 01-01-2005 05:27 PM ET (US) Walt, Jim certainly does not need me to defend him, but I must disagree with your conclusion about his promoting Mercury here. In my view, this thread is a welcome addition to the reference section on engines. That section has been an invaluable tool for me and members of my Whaler-fanatic family when we have repowered or bought new BW's. I am sure other readers have benefited in the same way. What the section provides is information on every manufacturer's offering in a particular hp range, not just Mercury's. This is the sort of information I am grateful to Jim for presenting on this website. Fran
SuburbanBoy	posted 01-01-2005 06:18 PM ET (US) If you subscribe to the old saying, "there is no substitute for cubic inches", Mercury is in trouble. That said, the thought of all electronic controls is enticing. But it must be reliable. In addition to all of Jim's cataloged specs what the table can't relate (yet) is how all of this new tech will hold up. There will be winners and losers as time moves on. sub
Peter	posted 01-01-2005 06:45 PM ET (US) I think that saying goes "there is no replacement for displacement."
rehenderson	posted 01-01-2005 10:50 PM ET (US) Ed's Marine has the 25" Johnson 225 EFI 4 stroke for $11,000.
wwknapp	posted 01-02-2005 01:31 AM ET (US) whalerfran: The reference section on engines contains two tables with a little info on engines from 2002. That is if you are considering a engine between 70 and 250 hp. No info on engines below that. And it seems to me that my computer is displaying that it's 2005, not 2002. So, I kind of think those prices are probably not right. It says there are no Johnson branded 4 strokes. (I imagined that pretty one I saw on a boat today). The models listed don't match the 2005 lineup. It also contains a section on E-Tec. Plus this latest thread. Which, if anything should have brought out just how little a list using MSRP means. Somehow I don't see that as covering engines very well at all. I've certainly got two engines for my Montauk that are not covered. Many engines used on Boston Whalers are not covered. Sure, by searching the forum I can find more comments and opinion covering a range of engine types. But the reference section is a bit neglected looking and far from complete. And note, jimh is not covering all Mercury, only Verado. This thread was started as a attempt to justify the Verado prices. So, how about a little balance? Two months of continuous threads on another model? Just for a change. Maybe even get out of the rut of only discussing 225 hp engines. It is a group that's interested in Boston Whalers. All of them and presumably all parts of them. Or so the intro fluff claims. Walt
seahorse	posted 01-02-2005 07:57 AM ET (US) Jim, The January issue of Trailer Boats Magazine has the specs for 360 outboards, as is stated on the front cover, as well as MSRP.
Estero	posted 01-02-2005 11:29 AM ET (US) JIm- here's a link to a Suzuki DF225 at Bayracer Marine, priced at $12,900. http://www.bayracermarine.com/table.asp
jimh	posted 01-02-2005 03:02 PM ET (US) Walt--You can feel completely free to collect and organize information about other power ranges of outboard motors. It just happens that at 225-HP there are a large number of different models available. Also, I happen to be more interested myself in engines in this horsepower range. It may be that at other horsepowers you could find this many models and manufacturers, but I don't know that for certain. Again, feel free to collect and organize the information that is of interest to you. You should not depend on me or this website to provide precisely the collection of information that is most interesting to you. If you are strongly interested in outboard motors of smaller horsepower, I would encourage you to investigate them. I will even be glad to help you present your information here, as part of the website, if you wish. In the past I have collaborated with several others to publish their articles, as you will see in the Reference section. At the time I published the information on the 2002 model mid-range engines it was rather timely. I don't really see a particular advantage to removing the information from the website. Because I collected and published that information once, I do not feel that I entered into a commitment or obligation to perpetually collect and publish that information in the future. If you want to collect and organize information on 2005 mid-range engines, again, you are free to do so. Also, at the time I collected and published that information, I was myself rather interested in engines in that power range, which was one of the reasons for collecting the information. I am a little surprised that there is so much rancor about my addition of information to my website. If you really think that adding information (on what I consider to be a related topic) to my website somehow detracts from the value of my website, I would tend to disagree. I think the organization of the price and weight of current 225-HP outboard motors is a reasonably interesting addition to the information on the website. The purpose of the comparison is not to "justify" the price of a Verado engine. It is merely to list the prices of a number of 225-HP outboard motors and compare them, along with a few other parameters like their displacement and weight. I don't see any particular slant to the information. The engines are even listed in alphabetical order by manufacturer's name. I don't think that constitutes a particular brand preference. It is very likely that there will be some articles on the website among the many thousands and thousands available here that discuss topics that are not particularly applicable to every individual Boston Whaler owner. However, there is not a requirement for universal appeal in every article. If a discussion of 225-HP motors is not of interest to you personally, I don't think that means it must not be published or is somehow unsuitable for publication on the website. I also have to observe that unfortunately the topic here has now become cluttered with more discussion about the merits of the topic than the topic itself. It would be greatly appreciated if all of this discussion be moved to the META-forum. The META-Forum is the appropriate place to discuss the forums or the websites themselves. I plan to delete all of this discussion from this actual topic. Feel free to re-introduce this discussion in the Meta forum.
jimh	posted 01-02-2005 03:30 PM ET (US) Added link to Suzuki prices. Thanks for the pointer. Added entries for re-badged motors sold under Mercury and Johnson brand name but practically identical to Yamaha and Suzuki models.
alkar	posted 01-02-2005 10:45 PM ET (US) Jim, this is great. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. I find it interesting that Johnson is selling the Suzuki 225 for prices well below the Suzuki prices. Whatever the reason for the pricing, it looks like a heck of a deal. Our local Suzuki dealer quoted $29,000 for a rigged pair of counter-rotating Suzuki 250s with their smart gauges and stainless props. (That's about $12,500 for each of the loose motors wihtout goodies or rigging.)
jeffnva	posted 08-05-2005 09:24 PM ET (US) Everything went well with my purchase of a 225 4 stroke Yamaha from Ed's Marine Superstore in Virginia with the exception of Mark in the service department. He not only ripped me off of my old boat motor he lost a potential customer with a huge list of friends who fish the Chesapeake Bay. I will certainly leave lots of good (?) feed back for the service department (Mark - Fat ass) on the WEB. Mark, those two cops that arrived late in the day were for you. Beware guys he is an A-Hole and will rip you off. Ed's get rid of that guy. I will never go back.