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Author Topic:   Kicker or repower or both on '86 Montauk???

odfmontauk posted 06-08-2005 01:43 PM ET (US)
Hi all, my first post as a new owner of a 1986 Montauk. Here's my question. It came with the original engine, 1986 Yamaha 90. It seems to run fine, expecially since I replaced the water pump assembly. But my real interest in purchasing this boat is to "get me feet wet" with offshore fishing outside SF Bay area somewhere. Not sure where yet but will figure that out once I feel my setup is seaworthy enough.
So my first thoughts have been purchasing a kicker to go with the '86 Yamaha 90. It's got about 100hrs on it but I would feel a lot better if I had a kicker just in case. But while researching for kickers, I'm now wondering if maybe it would be better to start off repowering, like with a DF70 that's got my eye. If I went that route, would I still need a kicker for just in case situtations? If so, seems like the DF70 is a bit of a porker, which kickers would compliment the weight of the DF70 as still get me home? Or maybe I should just purchase a kicker to compliment my '86 Yamaha 90, any suggestions? Money is a concern btw.
Any other comments or suggestions with regards to this and/or offshore fishing in SF Bay area would be great!!!! Never caught a fish over 5lbs :-).
Thanks!!!!
whalersailer posted 06-08-2005 02:18 PM ET (US)
If that Yamaha only has 100 hours on it, the compression is good, and it's not coroded, then you will have a hard time hanging a more dependable engine on the transom. That being said, having a kicker back there will give an added level of security. Also, you'll probably want one back there for trolling anyway.
My advice: Keep the Yamaha, add a kicker (with separate fuel source), and go fishing!
-WS
elaelap posted 06-08-2005 02:21 PM ET (US)
Welcome, odfmontauk, from another SF Bay area Whaler fisherman. I was faced with a similar decision when I bought my first Whaler, a 16'7" Katama (a Montauk precursor). My decision was much simpler than yours because my boat came with a trashed out '71 Evinrude, so I almost immediately repowered with a new four stroke (Yamaha 50 hp four stroke High Thrust). And since I also fish offshore I added a 6 hp Johnson Seahorse two stroke from one of my old sailboats as a kicker; not for trolling but as an emergency get-home motor. Your decision is complicated IF (and to my mind it's a big 'if') your Yamaha 90 has only about 100 hours of use...if that's so it's like a new motor and I sure wouldn't go to the expense and hassle of repowering, but I would look around for a decent used 6-10 hp kicker. Ideal, if you stay with the two stroke 90, is a four stroke kicker if you intend to troll for salmon--you'll save wear and tear on your main motor and won't have to deal with the problem endemic to two stroke engines being used for long periods of time at trolling speeds: spark plugs loading up and fouling.
I had a much tougher decision with my current boat, an '88 Outrage 18, which came with a nice Yamaha 115 hp two stroke in decent condition with just about 1100 hours. I went ahead and repowered with a 4/s because I had been so pleased with the four stroke on my Katama, but I would have been okay staying with the older motor because my boat also came with an almost-new condition Yamaha 8 hp kicker.
I think in your situation I would have a Yamaha-certified outboard motor mechanic thoroughly go over the motor, 'tune' it (whatever that means), maybe replace the wiring and fuel lines, and if everything checked out I'd happily congratulate myself for getting a great deal on an almost new fifteen-year-old motor. I still find it hard to believe that someone could own a Montauk for fifteen years and only put +/-100 hours on the motor (what is that, about seven or eight hours per year?!), but who knows...
Tony
P.S. I get out on average twice a week when the weather allows it, mostly out of Bodega Bay. Feel free to email me if you want to fish together either out under the Gate or up here.
odfmontauk posted 06-08-2005 02:26 PM ET (US)
Opps, sorry mistype. 1986 Yamaha with 1000hrs. Make any difference???
elaelap posted 06-08-2005 03:06 PM ET (US)
I intend to get well over 1500 hours out of my Yamaha 115 four stroke, and I have read reports here about outboards getting upwards of 3000 hours of use, but I don't know how secure I'd feel heading out into the Pacific Ocean with an older, untried motor with 1000 hours unless I had it very carefully checked out by a certified mechanic and had a good kicker to back it up. One of the great benefits of repowering with a new motor is that you know exactly how the motor has been broken in, how often the oil has been changed, whether the maintenance schedule has been religiously followed, if the motor has been flushed after each use, and how the motor was used in general (gently or wide open throttle all the time). It was worth my peace of mind to repower, even though my last boat came with a decent 1100-hour motor; then again I sometimes regret not having stayed with the old motor until it fell apart and having just relied on the kicker if/when the older motor failed. My choice was made much easier because I worked in exchange for my first four stroke motor and then traded straight across for my second.
Tony
odfmontauk posted 06-08-2005 03:46 PM ET (US)
Thanks for all your comments! Looking back at my post, I'm realizing that my situation is very cost based. So wanting to go offshore, would you go with a new 4s kicker and mount next to '86 yamaha 90 and be happy? Seems like the lowest cost option, depeding on which kicker I go with. Or, got a line on a 2002 DF70 used, asking $4,500 plus mount, controls, etc. Said will take trade-in on my yamaha for $1000 - $1200. If I go that route, would just having the DF70 by itself be good enough? Can I add a kicker with the DF70 on a classic montauk, seems like a lot of weight? Maybe better with a Merc 60hp 4s and a kicker???
Been doing a lot of searching lately. Some helpful, some not, but all great info!!! Anyone using DF70 w/kicker, haven't been able to find many posts? Which kicker?
Joe Kriz posted 06-08-2005 03:58 PM ET (US)
odfmontauk,
I made a couple of charts for Montauk Engine choices and Kicker choices.
Here is the Montauk Engine choice:
http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/drawings/Montauk-QRG.html
Here is the Kicker choice:
http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/drawings/Kicker-QRG.html

Your Yamaha 90 weighs 261 lbs.
I would recommend the Yamaha F8 (8hp) 4 Stroke with the weight of 83 lbs.
This would give you a total weight of 344 pounds approximately.
If your Yamaha has Oil injection and you are already running straight gas, then you could run straight gas from your fuel tanks for the 4 stroke also.
elaelap posted 06-08-2005 04:34 PM ET (US)
Joe and I have had this discussion before...there are certainly benefits to be gained running your kicker and main motor off the same fuel system in terms of simplicity and some weight savings, but notwithstanding those benefits I prefer having a separate fuel system for my kicker since I rely upon it for emergencies when my main motor has failed (which of course will never happen, it being a Yamaha ;-) ). For similar reasons I prefer my kicker to be totally self-contained and not hooked up to console controls or trim/tilt that could in any way be affected by whatever causes the potential main motor failure.
Tony
odfmontauk posted 06-08-2005 04:40 PM ET (US)
Kriz, that's just about what I was going to do until I started searching and thinking more. See my problem is that I have never offshore fished before. Not even sure what's out there to catch except it will be bigger than anything else I've every caught!!! ;-)
Going with that option, especially with a line on a '02 F8 for $800, would be nice for now. But what about down the line when I want to repower the yamaha 90. What would I go with? At this point that DF70 sounds great. Hmmm, DF70 @ 340lbs + F8 @ 85lbs = TOO MUCH WEIGHT?? So when it comes to cost, I'm looking at long running costs and sometimes not thinking your first purchases out enough may end up costing you more down the line.
I guess which is now why I'm leaning more towards getting the DF70 first. Or, better yet, figure out the best kicker to compliment the DF70, then just get that kicker now to go with my yamaha 90.
Oh, another question I keep forgetting. When offshore fishing in a Montauk with let's say a DF70 and a kicker, do people use the kicker to troll with? Or just troll with the DF70 and use kicker as emergency use only? Again, I have no idea what to fish for or how to fish for them in saltwater. Boy, is this going to be an adventure or what!!! :-)
odfmontauk posted 06-08-2005 04:52 PM ET (US)
Tony, that sounds great! Hope you don't mind dealing with a rookie? All my boating/fishing experience have been small fresh waters. As soon as I get my things together I'll be in touch.
Joe Kriz posted 06-08-2005 04:56 PM ET (US)
odf,
I agree with Tony that an extra fuel tank on an Outrage would be a nice feature.
However, if you are using a Montauk, then you already have the extra fuel tanks if you have the standard TWO 12 gallon tanks.
Tony, think about the Montauk.... :-)
or your prior Katama....
odf,
Again, I would recommend the F8 4 stroke kicker for now and then later when your main engine goes, then I would consider just replacing it with the same exact engine. I prefer two strokes just because they are simple and cheaper. 4 stroke in a kicker is ok.
I also would not recommend trolling with your main engine no matter what size your main engine is.
Trolling with your main engine adds extra hours on it that is really more suited for a kicker. Some main engines will not troll slow enough for certain species of fish which is another thing to consider.
I troll with my kicker about 6 to 8 hours a day when I fish. I only use the main engine to get me where I'm going and back again. This saves a lot of fuel for me plus the wear and tear on the main engine.
Good Luck with your decision.
Joe Kriz posted 06-08-2005 05:02 PM ET (US)
odf,
You might also want to check out this article I put together.
http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/Outrage/Kicker/
Also John Flook's article:
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/yamahaT8Kicker.html
I like full control of my kicker but don't have the need for the electric start due to extra weight in the Outrage 18. Like Tony, if I were going offshore in the Outrage 18, I would carry an extra 6 gallon fuel tank with straight fuel in it.
If you already have Two 12 gallon tanks, then you already have a backup.
odfmontauk posted 06-08-2005 05:07 PM ET (US)
2 x 12gal tanks? No, I definately remember one large red tank, think the upper line on the side read 20gal, so may be a bit bigger. Is having 2 seperate better than one big?
Joe Kriz posted 06-08-2005 05:26 PM ET (US)
odf,
Different strokes for different folks on the number of tanks.
I always preferred two tanks rather than one large one.
If something happened to one tank, you still have another one.
Also, if you leave the dock with two full tanks and you run the one tank out of fuel, you usually have enough fuel to get home. With one big tank, you have to pay much more attention to make sure you have enough fuel to get home on.
Two 12 gallon tanks was the standard on the Classic earlier Montauks.
Obviously, that is 24 gallons total.
Many people like the single Pate tank in either the 24 or the 27 gallon.
Matter of preference... again, I always liked having two tanks.
What ever Floats Your Boat...
odfmontauk posted 06-08-2005 06:12 PM ET (US)
After further searching, I'm still unable to find comments regarding which kicker is being used with a DF70 on a Montauk classic. Well ok, I found one with DF70 and Honda 8hp 4s. Anyone else using a DF70 and kicker on a classic Montauk? Would love to hear about it!!!
elaelap posted 06-08-2005 07:08 PM ET (US)
This is getting unnecessarily complicated. If you already have a 20- or 24-gallon tank, perhaps you'll use that one only for the main motor--whether your current Yamaha 90 or whatever motor you repower with--and keep a 6-gallon tank in the stern for your kicker. That's what I did on my old smirkless Katama. My current boat has a 63-gallon internal fuel tank, and if I had a four stroke kicker I would be very tempted to run it off that main fuel supply, but I think I would resist for the reasons stated above...I just like the extra security of a totally separate, self-contained emergency back-up kicker.
On the other hand, many much more experienced motorboat skippers (like Joe) enjoy the convenience and simplicity of a single fuel supply for main motor and kicker, and I wouldn't agonize too much over the choice.
Different strokes for different folks in this game, odf...I troll with my main motor 95% of the time, notwithstanding the good points Joe makes above about avoiding extra hours on the main motor by using a kicker for trolling. In fact I almost never turn off my main motor while at sea (unless I'm anchored), even while drift fishing in neutral for rockfish or 'mooching' in neutral for salmon, even though the motor has never missed starting the very first time I've turned the key. Why (Kriz asks)? Because it makes me feel more secure and mellow about getting home without having to swim or be towed if the motor won't start, because I like the idea that I can almost instantly bring the boat up to speed if I have to, and because I like the idea of the motor continually charging the batteries while I have the VHF, fishfinder, and chart plotter (GPS) on.
If I had an older two stroke main motor I'd try to never troll with it. I do understand that the newer two strokes don't have the problem of spark plug load up like the older ones, so perhaps I'd troll with one of them.
Finally...don't be shy about contacting me if you want to fish together. Several of us Bay Area folks at this website fish together fairly often in the ocean, usually in our separate Whalers but occasionally together in one another's. If you've never chased wild Pacific Chinook (king) salmon, this is the best time of the year to do so, and the ocean rockfishing season opens on July 1st. Every couple of years depending on El Nino currents and water temperature albacore tuna come in close enough for us to reach in smaller Whalers. There are also halibut and striped bass inside the Bay, which I'm not very good about catching, as well as sturgeon which I've never even seen caught in person (though I once spent seven hours aground on a San Pablo Bay mudflat trying ;-) ).
Tony
odfmontauk posted 06-08-2005 07:59 PM ET (US)
Tony,
Thanks for the invite! Like I said, I'll be looking for you guys as soon as I can. Wow, got to look-up some of these fish, but sounds like a great time. I read somewhere in SF area that the halibut this year are better than ever!?
Yeah, I haven't given much thought to fuel supply options yet as I'm still trying to figure out what to do about reliable(redundent?) power. I think the best thing for me to do if I want to get offshore asap with a certain amount of confidence is to purchase a kicker. So I'm currrently searching for specs of smaller kickers as if I already had a DF70. Why? Because I know I'll repower in the next couple years and I really like the comments on the DF70. I'm coming from a Merc 40 4s tiller on an Achilles inflatable so 4s for me all the way if weight allows.
Trying to find a post I saw about using the Mercury 3.3 on some sort of bracket because it's too short. 3.3hp, can that really be enough for a classic Montauk???
David Livingstone posted 06-08-2005 11:07 PM ET (US)
odfmontauk, I have an F100 4s Yamaha and a F4 4S Yamaha kicker, plus a stern seat on my Montauk. This is a picture of her in the water with me (200lb+) in the stern http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/41aa37dczd2587548/269d/__sr_/99db.jpg?phJ86pCBTn995qQN .
I only have the twin 6 gal tanks aboard but will increase to twin 12 gal ones next year.
You may have to put a hydrofoil on your DF70 to keep the bow down. Also relocate your battery to the console.
As a side note, here is the one third rule for fuel; use 1/3 out and 1/3 back to the harbour and have 1/3 left in your tank.
David
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 06-08-2005 11:40 PM ET (US)
1000 hours. You should have at least 500 more hours to go till you start to get concearned , Have you done a compression check? Are the cylinders within 15 PSI? Your motor may be just fine for now. Have you had a mech. look it over? Some thing to do if you want peace of mind. The kicker.. is something lots of people like to put on for trolling. My self no kicker but I do have dual batteries.
fishinchips posted 06-09-2005 10:12 AM ET (US)
odmontauk,
The yamaha is a good engine, but with 1000 hours I would go to a authorized yamaha dealer and get the motor checked out. Make sure they do a compression check and ask them to write it down. Also, make sure that the lower unit is ok.
If your going offshore, I would get a kicker motor. The kicker motors will push your montauk at hull speed. Approx. 5 mph range. Maybe a little more.
you can attach on a kicker motor directly on the stern of the montauk. You do not need a bracket. You must however purchase a long shaft motor.
Be cautious with weight on the kicker motor. If you go too heavy, you might get a lean on that one side of the boat (listing) and you would have to counteract that weight with something like moving your batteries. Many people go with a 6 to 8 hp kickers.
Ken
Tollyfamily posted 06-10-2005 01:35 PM ET (US)
I have a 6 hp Yamaha 2s on a OMC bracket and love it. Keep the fuel supply seperate. Tie the engines together so you can steer from the wheel.
Dan
Joe Kriz posted 06-10-2005 02:36 PM ET (US)
Yamaha no longer lists the 6hp 2 stroke on their website.
Another thing to consider when buying a kicker is get the most hp at the same weight. Example, the 6hp and the 8hp 4 stroke by Yamaha weigh the same. 83lbs. Why not purchase the 8hp ?
odfmontauk posted 06-10-2005 04:29 PM ET (US)
Thanks for all the comments! Great stuff!!!
Here's where I am now. I've pretty much decided that my current Yamaha 90 going to get replaced sooner than later. So I've narrowed it down to either a Mercury 60hp EFI or Suzuki DF70. If I go with a Merc 60, seems kicker weight isn't really an issue and any 6-8hp 4s will do well and not be too heavy. If I go with the Suzuki DF70, it seems to me that kicker weight is an issue like 83lbs + 340lbs = 423lbs.
So I've done plenty of boolean searches on DF70's with kickers. The example above was it, like a DF70 with an F8 4s. Just seems too heavy to me. Anyone else using a different kicker with a DF70???
If I can find a kicker setup that works well with the DF70, then it will certainly work well with the Merc 60 if I decide to go that route instead. But best of all, I would purchase that kicker now, use it with my Yamaha 90 until I've got the funds together to repower. That way I'm going offshore sooner that later :). Also, the kicker will work well with either a DF70 or Merc 60 so I'm able to keep my options open. But I'd really like to go DF70, think that's getting obvious ;).

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Author	Topic: Kicker or repower or both on '86 Montauk???
odfmontauk	posted 06-08-2005 01:43 PM ET (US) Hi all, my first post as a new owner of a 1986 Montauk. Here's my question. It came with the original engine, 1986 Yamaha 90. It seems to run fine, expecially since I replaced the water pump assembly. But my real interest in purchasing this boat is to "get me feet wet" with offshore fishing outside SF Bay area somewhere. Not sure where yet but will figure that out once I feel my setup is seaworthy enough. So my first thoughts have been purchasing a kicker to go with the '86 Yamaha 90. It's got about 100hrs on it but I would feel a lot better if I had a kicker just in case. But while researching for kickers, I'm now wondering if maybe it would be better to start off repowering, like with a DF70 that's got my eye. If I went that route, would I still need a kicker for just in case situtations? If so, seems like the DF70 is a bit of a porker, which kickers would compliment the weight of the DF70 as still get me home? Or maybe I should just purchase a kicker to compliment my '86 Yamaha 90, any suggestions? Money is a concern btw. Any other comments or suggestions with regards to this and/or offshore fishing in SF Bay area would be great!!!! Never caught a fish over 5lbs :-). Thanks!!!!
whalersailer	posted 06-08-2005 02:18 PM ET (US) If that Yamaha only has 100 hours on it, the compression is good, and it's not coroded, then you will have a hard time hanging a more dependable engine on the transom. That being said, having a kicker back there will give an added level of security. Also, you'll probably want one back there for trolling anyway. My advice: Keep the Yamaha, add a kicker (with separate fuel source), and go fishing! -WS
elaelap	posted 06-08-2005 02:21 PM ET (US) Welcome, odfmontauk, from another SF Bay area Whaler fisherman. I was faced with a similar decision when I bought my first Whaler, a 16'7" Katama (a Montauk precursor). My decision was much simpler than yours because my boat came with a trashed out '71 Evinrude, so I almost immediately repowered with a new four stroke (Yamaha 50 hp four stroke High Thrust). And since I also fish offshore I added a 6 hp Johnson Seahorse two stroke from one of my old sailboats as a kicker; not for trolling but as an emergency get-home motor. Your decision is complicated IF (and to my mind it's a big 'if') your Yamaha 90 has only about 100 hours of use...if that's so it's like a new motor and I sure wouldn't go to the expense and hassle of repowering, but I would look around for a decent used 6-10 hp kicker. Ideal, if you stay with the two stroke 90, is a four stroke kicker if you intend to troll for salmon--you'll save wear and tear on your main motor and won't have to deal with the problem endemic to two stroke engines being used for long periods of time at trolling speeds: spark plugs loading up and fouling. I had a much tougher decision with my current boat, an '88 Outrage 18, which came with a nice Yamaha 115 hp two stroke in decent condition with just about 1100 hours. I went ahead and repowered with a 4/s because I had been so pleased with the four stroke on my Katama, but I would have been okay staying with the older motor because my boat also came with an almost-new condition Yamaha 8 hp kicker. I think in your situation I would have a Yamaha-certified outboard motor mechanic thoroughly go over the motor, 'tune' it (whatever that means), maybe replace the wiring and fuel lines, and if everything checked out I'd happily congratulate myself for getting a great deal on an almost new fifteen-year-old motor. I still find it hard to believe that someone could own a Montauk for fifteen years and only put +/-100 hours on the motor (what is that, about seven or eight hours per year?!), but who knows... Tony P.S. I get out on average twice a week when the weather allows it, mostly out of Bodega Bay. Feel free to email me if you want to fish together either out under the Gate or up here.
odfmontauk	posted 06-08-2005 02:26 PM ET (US) Opps, sorry mistype. 1986 Yamaha with 1000hrs. Make any difference???
elaelap	posted 06-08-2005 03:06 PM ET (US) I intend to get well over 1500 hours out of my Yamaha 115 four stroke, and I have read reports here about outboards getting upwards of 3000 hours of use, but I don't know how secure I'd feel heading out into the Pacific Ocean with an older, untried motor with 1000 hours unless I had it very carefully checked out by a certified mechanic and had a good kicker to back it up. One of the great benefits of repowering with a new motor is that you know exactly how the motor has been broken in, how often the oil has been changed, whether the maintenance schedule has been religiously followed, if the motor has been flushed after each use, and how the motor was used in general (gently or wide open throttle all the time). It was worth my peace of mind to repower, even though my last boat came with a decent 1100-hour motor; then again I sometimes regret not having stayed with the old motor until it fell apart and having just relied on the kicker if/when the older motor failed. My choice was made much easier because I worked in exchange for my first four stroke motor and then traded straight across for my second. Tony
odfmontauk	posted 06-08-2005 03:46 PM ET (US) Thanks for all your comments! Looking back at my post, I'm realizing that my situation is very cost based. So wanting to go offshore, would you go with a new 4s kicker and mount next to '86 yamaha 90 and be happy? Seems like the lowest cost option, depeding on which kicker I go with. Or, got a line on a 2002 DF70 used, asking $4,500 plus mount, controls, etc. Said will take trade-in on my yamaha for $1000 - $1200. If I go that route, would just having the DF70 by itself be good enough? Can I add a kicker with the DF70 on a classic montauk, seems like a lot of weight? Maybe better with a Merc 60hp 4s and a kicker??? Been doing a lot of searching lately. Some helpful, some not, but all great info!!! Anyone using DF70 w/kicker, haven't been able to find many posts? Which kicker?
Joe Kriz	posted 06-08-2005 03:58 PM ET (US) odfmontauk, I made a couple of charts for Montauk Engine choices and Kicker choices. Here is the Montauk Engine choice: http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/drawings/Montauk-QRG.html Here is the Kicker choice: http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/drawings/Kicker-QRG.html Your Yamaha 90 weighs 261 lbs. I would recommend the Yamaha F8 (8hp) 4 Stroke with the weight of 83 lbs. This would give you a total weight of 344 pounds approximately. If your Yamaha has Oil injection and you are already running straight gas, then you could run straight gas from your fuel tanks for the 4 stroke also.
elaelap	posted 06-08-2005 04:34 PM ET (US) Joe and I have had this discussion before...there are certainly benefits to be gained running your kicker and main motor off the same fuel system in terms of simplicity and some weight savings, but notwithstanding those benefits I prefer having a separate fuel system for my kicker since I rely upon it for emergencies when my main motor has failed (which of course will never happen, it being a Yamaha ;-) ). For similar reasons I prefer my kicker to be totally self-contained and not hooked up to console controls or trim/tilt that could in any way be affected by whatever causes the potential main motor failure. Tony
odfmontauk	posted 06-08-2005 04:40 PM ET (US) Kriz, that's just about what I was going to do until I started searching and thinking more. See my problem is that I have never offshore fished before. Not even sure what's out there to catch except it will be bigger than anything else I've every caught!!! ;-) Going with that option, especially with a line on a '02 F8 for $800, would be nice for now. But what about down the line when I want to repower the yamaha 90. What would I go with? At this point that DF70 sounds great. Hmmm, DF70 @ 340lbs + F8 @ 85lbs = TOO MUCH WEIGHT?? So when it comes to cost, I'm looking at long running costs and sometimes not thinking your first purchases out enough may end up costing you more down the line. I guess which is now why I'm leaning more towards getting the DF70 first. Or, better yet, figure out the best kicker to compliment the DF70, then just get that kicker now to go with my yamaha 90. Oh, another question I keep forgetting. When offshore fishing in a Montauk with let's say a DF70 and a kicker, do people use the kicker to troll with? Or just troll with the DF70 and use kicker as emergency use only? Again, I have no idea what to fish for or how to fish for them in saltwater. Boy, is this going to be an adventure or what!!! :-)
odfmontauk	posted 06-08-2005 04:52 PM ET (US) Tony, that sounds great! Hope you don't mind dealing with a rookie? All my boating/fishing experience have been small fresh waters. As soon as I get my things together I'll be in touch.
Joe Kriz	posted 06-08-2005 04:56 PM ET (US) odf, I agree with Tony that an extra fuel tank on an Outrage would be a nice feature. However, if you are using a Montauk, then you already have the extra fuel tanks if you have the standard TWO 12 gallon tanks. Tony, think about the Montauk.... :-) or your prior Katama.... odf, Again, I would recommend the F8 4 stroke kicker for now and then later when your main engine goes, then I would consider just replacing it with the same exact engine. I prefer two strokes just because they are simple and cheaper. 4 stroke in a kicker is ok. I also would not recommend trolling with your main engine no matter what size your main engine is. Trolling with your main engine adds extra hours on it that is really more suited for a kicker. Some main engines will not troll slow enough for certain species of fish which is another thing to consider. I troll with my kicker about 6 to 8 hours a day when I fish. I only use the main engine to get me where I'm going and back again. This saves a lot of fuel for me plus the wear and tear on the main engine. Good Luck with your decision.
Joe Kriz	posted 06-08-2005 05:02 PM ET (US) odf, You might also want to check out this article I put together. http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/Outrage/Kicker/ Also John Flook's article: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/yamahaT8Kicker.html I like full control of my kicker but don't have the need for the electric start due to extra weight in the Outrage 18. Like Tony, if I were going offshore in the Outrage 18, I would carry an extra 6 gallon fuel tank with straight fuel in it. If you already have Two 12 gallon tanks, then you already have a backup.
odfmontauk	posted 06-08-2005 05:07 PM ET (US) 2 x 12gal tanks? No, I definately remember one large red tank, think the upper line on the side read 20gal, so may be a bit bigger. Is having 2 seperate better than one big?
Joe Kriz	posted 06-08-2005 05:26 PM ET (US) odf, Different strokes for different folks on the number of tanks. I always preferred two tanks rather than one large one. If something happened to one tank, you still have another one. Also, if you leave the dock with two full tanks and you run the one tank out of fuel, you usually have enough fuel to get home. With one big tank, you have to pay much more attention to make sure you have enough fuel to get home on. Two 12 gallon tanks was the standard on the Classic earlier Montauks. Obviously, that is 24 gallons total. Many people like the single Pate tank in either the 24 or the 27 gallon. Matter of preference... again, I always liked having two tanks. What ever Floats Your Boat...
odfmontauk	posted 06-08-2005 06:12 PM ET (US) After further searching, I'm still unable to find comments regarding which kicker is being used with a DF70 on a Montauk classic. Well ok, I found one with DF70 and Honda 8hp 4s. Anyone else using a DF70 and kicker on a classic Montauk? Would love to hear about it!!!
elaelap	posted 06-08-2005 07:08 PM ET (US) This is getting unnecessarily complicated. If you already have a 20- or 24-gallon tank, perhaps you'll use that one only for the main motor--whether your current Yamaha 90 or whatever motor you repower with--and keep a 6-gallon tank in the stern for your kicker. That's what I did on my old smirkless Katama. My current boat has a 63-gallon internal fuel tank, and if I had a four stroke kicker I would be very tempted to run it off that main fuel supply, but I think I would resist for the reasons stated above...I just like the extra security of a totally separate, self-contained emergency back-up kicker. On the other hand, many much more experienced motorboat skippers (like Joe) enjoy the convenience and simplicity of a single fuel supply for main motor and kicker, and I wouldn't agonize too much over the choice. Different strokes for different folks in this game, odf...I troll with my main motor 95% of the time, notwithstanding the good points Joe makes above about avoiding extra hours on the main motor by using a kicker for trolling. In fact I almost never turn off my main motor while at sea (unless I'm anchored), even while drift fishing in neutral for rockfish or 'mooching' in neutral for salmon, even though the motor has never missed starting the very first time I've turned the key. Why (Kriz asks)? Because it makes me feel more secure and mellow about getting home without having to swim or be towed if the motor won't start, because I like the idea that I can almost instantly bring the boat up to speed if I have to, and because I like the idea of the motor continually charging the batteries while I have the VHF, fishfinder, and chart plotter (GPS) on. If I had an older two stroke main motor I'd try to never troll with it. I do understand that the newer two strokes don't have the problem of spark plug load up like the older ones, so perhaps I'd troll with one of them. Finally...don't be shy about contacting me if you want to fish together. Several of us Bay Area folks at this website fish together fairly often in the ocean, usually in our separate Whalers but occasionally together in one another's. If you've never chased wild Pacific Chinook (king) salmon, this is the best time of the year to do so, and the ocean rockfishing season opens on July 1st. Every couple of years depending on El Nino currents and water temperature albacore tuna come in close enough for us to reach in smaller Whalers. There are also halibut and striped bass inside the Bay, which I'm not very good about catching, as well as sturgeon which I've never even seen caught in person (though I once spent seven hours aground on a San Pablo Bay mudflat trying ;-) ). Tony
odfmontauk	posted 06-08-2005 07:59 PM ET (US) Tony, Thanks for the invite! Like I said, I'll be looking for you guys as soon as I can. Wow, got to look-up some of these fish, but sounds like a great time. I read somewhere in SF area that the halibut this year are better than ever!? Yeah, I haven't given much thought to fuel supply options yet as I'm still trying to figure out what to do about reliable(redundent?) power. I think the best thing for me to do if I want to get offshore asap with a certain amount of confidence is to purchase a kicker. So I'm currrently searching for specs of smaller kickers as if I already had a DF70. Why? Because I know I'll repower in the next couple years and I really like the comments on the DF70. I'm coming from a Merc 40 4s tiller on an Achilles inflatable so 4s for me all the way if weight allows. Trying to find a post I saw about using the Mercury 3.3 on some sort of bracket because it's too short. 3.3hp, can that really be enough for a classic Montauk???
David Livingstone	posted 06-08-2005 11:07 PM ET (US) odfmontauk, I have an F100 4s Yamaha and a F4 4S Yamaha kicker, plus a stern seat on my Montauk. This is a picture of her in the water with me (200lb+) in the stern http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/41aa37dczd2587548/269d/__sr_/99db.jpg?phJ86pCBTn995qQN . I only have the twin 6 gal tanks aboard but will increase to twin 12 gal ones next year. You may have to put a hydrofoil on your DF70 to keep the bow down. Also relocate your battery to the console. As a side note, here is the one third rule for fuel; use 1/3 out and 1/3 back to the harbour and have 1/3 left in your tank. David
The Chesapeake Explorer	posted 06-08-2005 11:40 PM ET (US) 1000 hours. You should have at least 500 more hours to go till you start to get concearned , Have you done a compression check? Are the cylinders within 15 PSI? Your motor may be just fine for now. Have you had a mech. look it over? Some thing to do if you want peace of mind. The kicker.. is something lots of people like to put on for trolling. My self no kicker but I do have dual batteries.
fishinchips	posted 06-09-2005 10:12 AM ET (US) odmontauk, The yamaha is a good engine, but with 1000 hours I would go to a authorized yamaha dealer and get the motor checked out. Make sure they do a compression check and ask them to write it down. Also, make sure that the lower unit is ok. If your going offshore, I would get a kicker motor. The kicker motors will push your montauk at hull speed. Approx. 5 mph range. Maybe a little more. you can attach on a kicker motor directly on the stern of the montauk. You do not need a bracket. You must however purchase a long shaft motor. Be cautious with weight on the kicker motor. If you go too heavy, you might get a lean on that one side of the boat (listing) and you would have to counteract that weight with something like moving your batteries. Many people go with a 6 to 8 hp kickers. Ken
Tollyfamily	posted 06-10-2005 01:35 PM ET (US) I have a 6 hp Yamaha 2s on a OMC bracket and love it. Keep the fuel supply seperate. Tie the engines together so you can steer from the wheel. Dan
Joe Kriz	posted 06-10-2005 02:36 PM ET (US) Yamaha no longer lists the 6hp 2 stroke on their website. Another thing to consider when buying a kicker is get the most hp at the same weight. Example, the 6hp and the 8hp 4 stroke by Yamaha weigh the same. 83lbs. Why not purchase the 8hp ?
odfmontauk	posted 06-10-2005 04:29 PM ET (US) Thanks for all the comments! Great stuff!!! Here's where I am now. I've pretty much decided that my current Yamaha 90 going to get replaced sooner than later. So I've narrowed it down to either a Mercury 60hp EFI or Suzuki DF70. If I go with a Merc 60, seems kicker weight isn't really an issue and any 6-8hp 4s will do well and not be too heavy. If I go with the Suzuki DF70, it seems to me that kicker weight is an issue like 83lbs + 340lbs = 423lbs. So I've done plenty of boolean searches on DF70's with kickers. The example above was it, like a DF70 with an F8 4s. Just seems too heavy to me. Anyone else using a different kicker with a DF70??? If I can find a kicker setup that works well with the DF70, then it will certainly work well with the Merc 60 if I decide to go that route instead. But best of all, I would purchase that kicker now, use it with my Yamaha 90 until I've got the funds together to repower. That way I'm going offshore sooner that later :). Also, the kicker will work well with either a DF70 or Merc 60 so I'm able to keep my options open. But I'd really like to go DF70, think that's getting obvious ;).