posted 06-15-2005 05:54 PM ET (US)        

Sunday, I hoped in the boat, and before turning the key, commented to my buddy on the dock "I'll bet it fires right up and runs like a champ." Guess what? Yep! it fired right up and ran like a champ (though the alarm did sound twice while idling at the dock for 10 minutes). I ran the boat to the haul out and loaded her up.

I brought it to the dealer yesterday, and he just called me back this afternoon. He said that the engine was all fixed and ready to be picked up. Apparently, there was some bug in the programming that showed up only in cold conditions. It had to do with the oil temperature and water temperature sensors. I didn't get too many of the details, but it sounded like BRP was aware of it and had a fix ready to upload. I was hoping that they would be able to find a definite root cause and repair it. In that respect I am happy and will be able to have confidence in the engine once again. However, a few questions came to my mind that I will get answered tomorrow:

1) Assuming BRP was aware of this, why didn't they contact me before I was left stranded?

2) What engines have this problem?

3) Does BRP intend to issue a recall or service bulletin?

In retrospect, the problem I had was not at all threatening, as I had a kicker, and was close to home in a protected harbor. However, if I had brand new twins (for redundancy), and was a ways offshore, this could have been an entirely different scenario.

Once I find out the answers to the above questions, I'll post them.

posted 06-15-2005 05:59 PM ET (US)            

Will do.

I kinda had you in mind when I was thinking about having brand new twins back there for redundancy...

posted 06-15-2005 09:21 PM ET (US)            

The beautiful aspect of modern engines is that their performance is determined, to a great extent, by the software code contained within their engine control modules. If there is a problem in that code, it can be corrected.

By the same hand, the downfall of modern engines is that their performance is determined, to a great extent, by the software code contained within their engine control modules. If there are bugs in the code, it can cause problems in the engine operation.

posted 06-16-2005 07:42 AM ET (US)            

IF it was the LOW OIL lite coming on, then it was probably a glitch in the oil tank float switch or in the gauge, nothing to do with the motor, whether it was and E-TEC or a carbureted engine.

And yes, there was a service bulletin about the software update that came out a while back, but as with most bulletins, it only applies to a certain serial number range.

posted 06-16-2005 09:27 AM ET (US)            

So when an aural alarm is signaled, there should be some additional alarm indicators to help communicate the problem.

posted 06-16-2005 09:29 AM ET (US)            

I couldn't agree more with your observations about the strengths and weeknesses of the new "fly by wire" engine technology. This became exceedingly evident as we were attempting to troubleshoot the problem!

Seahorse - Sorry I wasn't clear about the light that came on - it was the top light on my System Check gauge - "NO OIL" (the "LOW OIL" light is the bottom one). That's what got me concerned, plus the alarm stayed on for awhile each time it went off. I looked it up in my manual (even though I read the manual through cover to cover before I installed the engine) because I didn't recall that there was an alarm that should be sounding with the "NO OIL" light and yet still allow the engine to operate through it's entire RPM range. If it was a "glitch" in the float or the gauge, then why did BRP have a software fix for it? Or did you mean a software glitch? If there was a service bulletin that affected my serial number, whose responsibility was it to contact me (the dealer, or BRP)?

Peter - I had my dealer reprogram for XD-100 before the engine was ever started.

My intent here is NOT to bash my new E-Tec. I am still very excited about this engine and happy I purchased it. However, I know that there are several people who have either purchased these engines or are in the process of purchasing them, and I honestly felt that my experience here could be of some value to them.

I'm picking the boat up in a few hours. I'll post the answers I receive from the dealer later.

posted 06-16-2005 09:34 AM ET (US)         

Ain't that a kick (or two) in the groin!

Sorry, I couldn't resist given the ads BRP was running.

posted 06-16-2005 09:41 AM ET (US)            

1. - " (I AM on my third power head since I bought the motor last Labor Day weekend)".

posted 06-16-2005 10:11 AM ET (US)            

As to the cracked shroud: these shrouds are the plastic cowls that go around the shaft housing. If he is using the engine to break up the ice, I would fully expect some damage could occur to that cowl.

posted 06-16-2005 11:26 AM ET (US)            

He (the tech support person) felt that the alarm and the engine dying were unrelated. He also said that the engine should have kicked into S.A.F.E. mode and limited the RPM's to 1,500 when the "NO OIL" alarm and light were on. However, the RPM's were not limited when the engine was in this condition.

When I pick up the boat, I'm going to get the engine history printout from the mechanic and call BRP back with the information (per BRP's suggestion).

BRP did say that if there is a known problem that could cause an engine to quit running, the owners would be notified directly by BRP (not the dealers).

posted 06-16-2005 11:41 AM ET (US)            

If the EMM sees a command to pump oil and no corresponding response from the oil sensor, its program execution branches into a subroutine where it pumps a few extra pulses of oil and looks for a flow sensor response. If this results in the oil system now signaling oil flow in the proper ratio to oil pump pulses, it figures it has cleared the problem and branches back to normal execution of the monitor program.

If the extra pump pulses do not clear the problem, they may repeat a few times (I don't recall precisely), until the management module concludes that there is a problem with oil delivery and sounds an alarm. I believe that if there is a NO OIL alarm the engine management software should branch into a new mode to limit engine speed to a low speed where it thinks the engine could run for a while without oil and without damage.

It sounds like in cold weather conditions the viscosity of the oil may affect the operation of either the oil pump or the oil flow sensor. Perhaps the algorithm used to monitor this system has been changed to accommodate this.

This is another great advantage of an engine with a sophisticated engine management module; it can be re-programmed to work around problems like this and correct them by software solutions, not hardware.

posted 06-16-2005 11:53 AM ET (US)            

That scenario is entirely plausible. I didn't notice any excess smoke from the engine, but given the fog, temperature (we could see our breath), and the fact that the oil is XD-100, I'm not sure I would have been able to tell if it was running too much oil anyway. The way the engine died WAS similar to having fouled plugs, so you may be on to something here.

Thanks!

posted 06-16-2005 02:19 PM ET (US)            

When the alarm went off I was about 20 miles offshore. I was kinda worried to say the least. I shut it down and checked the tank (3/4) full, checked the primer bulb (very hard). So then I marked the oil level in the tank with a pen and continued to run the motor for the rest of the day with no problems (except the low oil read out on my tach. The RPM limiter never kicked in so I figured I was ok since it was still using oil.

My mechanic told me that he found no record of low oil anything when he downloaded the history from the engine. He checked the sending unit in the tank and everything checked out.

My engine was one that needed a software upgrade and got it while there. I only have 26 hours on my motor but love it so far. I took it out yesterday and all was well so I hope this was just a software problem.....

posted 06-16-2005 03:13 PM ET (US)            

At this point, I am comfortable with the root cause analysis and the corrective action taken. I consider this matter closed for my engine.

I should also add that the level of service and response from both my dealer and BRP has been very good! Hopefully I won't have to test this again.

Looks like we're finally going to have summer up here this weekend, so I'll be on Lake Superior (hopefully) catching fish on Saturday and cruising on the St. Croix river with the family on Father's day.

Thanks to everyone for the input!

posted 06-16-2005 09:16 PM ET (US)            

Evinrude E-TEC™ Outboard Motor: 2004 vs 2005?
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/002974.html

E-TEC 90-HP: More Problems!
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/003011.html

posted 06-17-2005 08:19 AM ET (US)            

The LOW OIL sender in your tank is just a float with a metal disc on it that completes the circuit between 2 contacts when the oil level gets to a certain point. Sometimes the float can "stick" on the shaft and give a false signal to the SystemCheck gauge on the dash.

Because the LOW OIL alarm is not a monitored part of the motor, the computer does not record an error code in the memory.

posted 06-17-2005 09:10 AM ET (US)            

My 90hp e-tec has exhibited similar no-oil warning problems in cold weather conditions as mentioned by the originator of this thread. My 90hp e-tec has also had other problems, some of which supposedly have been addressed by BRP, including total powerhead failure, corrosion on mounting bolts between the lower unit and main housing, and cracked plastic on the lower cowling.

Overall, I am pleased with this motor. However, I have high expectations for any motor I purchase and am not tolerant of poor workmanship or inferior materials used in the manufacturing process. I have kept motors running for far longer than many folks would reasonably expect but need a good base product to start with.

posted 06-17-2005 09:46 AM ET (US)            

Just re-read your question. No, we did not actually check things out but just replaced everything. I would have liked to have run the checks but the dealer made the call.

AS I do have a bit of a background in stats (I've taught stats to bio students) I agree that my troubles would seem outside the norm given the number of great reports on this motor; but if a part from the original assembly were out of spec and it was attached to the replacement powerhead I wouldn't be surprised to see a second failure. That is why I was annoyed that BRP did not provide a full dress powerhead replacement after the initial failure.

posted 06-17-2005 09:52 AM ET (US)            

LOW OIL ALARM SUMMARY

stevedallas28 reports an apparently false LOW OIL alarm and no record of it in the EMM history file. The lack of a record in the EMM history file is normal because the LOW OIL sensor only signals the operator, not the EMM. The most likely cause of this is a faulty float sensor. This cannot be fixed by changes in the EMM software.

ratherwhalering reports that the LOW OIL alarm on his 90-HP E-TEChas only triggered when:

--the level was low, thus a proper alarm condition
--the level was near the threshold and motion on the boat caused sloshing which created a temporary LOW OIL condition which was properly signaled.

Ergo, ratherwhalering has not reported any false LOW OIL alarms.

whalersailer has not reported any false LOW OIL alarms.

NO OIL ALARM SUMMARY

whalersailer reports a NO OIL alarm which occurred during cold weather operation, described in the initial article in this thread.

crabby concurs and notes he has had NO OIL alarms occur in cold weather operation, too.

If I understand correctly, following the incident with whalersailer's E-TEC, the motor was taken to a dealer and a software patch was applied to the EMM.

Did the dealer say that the software patch being applied was specifically to deal with the occurrence of false NO OIL alarms in cold weather operation?

posted 06-17-2005 10:54 AM ET (US)            

Yes, the dealer did say that the software patch that was applied was specifically to deal with the occurrence of false NO OIL alarms in cold weather operation. BRP concurred with the dealer's assertion.

Additionally, as I chronicled above, BRP agreed with your assessment concerning the algorithm and how it put allot more oil into the engine during this condition - thus causing the engine to cease running as I experienced.

posted 06-17-2005 01:07 PM ET (US)            

I believe the flow sensor is located within the reservoir, so it should also warm as the engine emits waste heat under the cowling.

This situation may make the effect of the ambient temperature less influential on the 90-HP E-TEC and its oil system.

posted 06-17-2005 08:16 PM ET (US)            

The cooling systems of practically all water-cooled outboard motors ever made are open-loop systems where a continuous supply of raw water is introduced into the engine. When this continuous supply of cooling water is at temperatures in the low 40-degree range (and possible only in the high 30's as is the case in Lake Superior), it may be impossible for the engine to ever warm up to the designed operating temperature.

posted 06-18-2005 11:25 AM ET (US)            

Getting back to the original problem, the engine was still in the break-in period and running on extra oil. This is also a factor in the stalling problem.

More important than conjecture: has the software patch eliminated the problem with the NO OIL condition in cold temperature?

I look forward to hearing the results, but for whalersailer's sake, I hope it warms up in Duluth. Ambient temperatures in the 40°F range in June are not encouraging. We are heading for Lake Superior in a couple of months, so, please, let's turn the heat on up there!

posted 06-20-2005 08:00 AM ET (US)            

the setup instructions illustrate how to bleed the oil system, then use the laptop to run a priming program.

posted 06-20-2005 01:15 PM ET (US)            

I had the boat hooked up on Friday afternoon, and before I took off, I hooked it up to the hose to fire it up (I usually do this before leaving home to make sure everything is operating as it should). I couldn't get it started. I primed the fuel bulb a couple of pumps, then it finally started. It idled fine for about 45 seconds, then it idled poorly and died in exactly the same manner as the previous weekend. At this time, it was just before 5:00p.m., but I was still able to get the mechanic on the phone. I asked him if he had started the engine after the new software was installed. He stated that he had "fired her up for a couple seconds." I related the problems I was having, and he was at a loss for how to get it running. I spent another couple of hours going through the fuel system (again) to no avail. I went to a dealer close to my house and bought a new set of plugs thinking that maybe the originals were fouled. After installing the new plugs, there was no change - the engine just wouldn't run! At that point, I changed my plans for the weekend, and the Whaler was no longer included in them :-(

One other peculiar thing that I noticed was that when the hose is hooked up to the engine and turned on, water accumulates in the bottom of the housing around the bottom of the block. The dealer confirmed my suspicians that this should not happen.

The boat is going back to the shop tomorrow.

I'll post more when I get some answers.

posted 06-21-2005 01:38 PM ET (US)            

I am as certain as I can be that there is no water in the fuel. I say this because:

1) I completely went through the fuel system when I installed the engine. This included replacing the fuel lines, adding a primary filter/water separator. and replacing the 6 gallons of "old" fuel in the system with fresh fuel.

2) The boat has lived in my garage except for the 3 times I have had it out since the work above was done.

3) There is no sign of water in either the primary separator, or in the filter in the engine.

posted 06-21-2005 03:27 PM ET (US)            

Rather, I have already done what you mentioned twice! I cannot detect any leaks in the system. In fact, when I cut the hose, fuel under pressure came spurting out. What were the symptoms of your air in the line problem?

Guys, don't forget that I had almost 10 hours of trouble free operation with about 15 gallons of fuel run through the system.

posted 06-23-2005 12:36 PM ET (US)            

Hopefully this fixes it...

posted 06-28-2005 10:16 AM ET (US)            

I called the dealer late Friday to verify that the part had arrived and my boat was ready for me to pick up. Unfortunately, I was told that the part was backordered from BRP, and they had no idea of when it would be available! I elevated the situation to the dealership management who wholeheartedly agreed with my contention that this has become an unaccepable situation (3 weekends now without my brand new engine functioning). They contacted BRP, and BRP shipped one out yesterday. The boat should be ready to pick up today.

As has been stated in another thread, the manufacturing processes in place at world class organizations mean that there just aren't a bunch of spare parts sitting on a shelf waiting to be assembled or shipped for warranty replacements. Based on what the dealer told me, it sounds like they literally had to pull one off of the assembly line to ship to me.

posted 06-29-2005 01:01 AM ET (US)            

A friend with a a five year old Mercury outboard will be installing his third stator. When I sold my Yamaha twins, they were both on their second stator. It seems to be an electrical part that is a common repair.

For the stator to be bad on an engine as new as yours would be unusual. Normally it is prolonged exposure to heat that kills them. Perhaps your problem could have been as simple as a bad connector. One lousy crimp and you could have a problem.

My master Evinrude mechanic told me the real problem with replacing stators is getting the flywheel off and back on. The magnets in these new E-TEC engines are very powerful. You have to be extremely careful when lowering the flywheel back in place that you don't let it jump off center due to the extremely strong magnetic force. There is a special fixture to prevent this.

posted 06-29-2005 08:46 AM ET (US)            

See this Mercury owner's comment:

posted 06-29-2005 10:31 AM ET (US)            

Does this sound plausible?

I hope not, because I would really hate to think that there are parts on an outboard engine that are susceptible to failure if exposed to water!

Thanks,

posted 06-29-2005 07:35 PM ET (US)         

A friend with a pair of 1990 3.0 liter 200 Evinrudes had THREE stator replacements done on one, and TWO on the other, in a 4 year period!

posted 07-07-2005 01:26 PM ET (US)            

The boat started and idled fine, but stumbled and ultimately died in the middle of the lake on which I had taken my family out Saturday afternoon. Luckily, the weather was very pleasant, and a nice gentleman with a Mercury 115 on his Alumacraft towed us back to the lauch ramp. I didn't see any Mercury fans with cameras on shore, but it sure was a great photo op!

Four weekends shot.

I just spoke with the mechanic, and this time he troubleshot it back to the [EMM]. The [EMM] has to be shipped back to BRP, and they will fix it (or download the data to a new one). Given the engine data stored in the [EMM], they can't just send a new one to install. The repaired [EMM] won't be back here until early next week.

Five weekends shot.

I'm going to call the local BRP representative, but I don't really expect much from it - I just need to vent!

posted 07-07-2005 01:50 PM ET (US)            

Your motor still seems to have all the symptoms of a fuel delivery problem possibly caused by a faulty fuel pump, faulty injectors, a fuel line obstruction or water in fuel (could also be a faulty EMM). Did you or your mechanic ever hook the motor directly up to a 6 gallon portable tank with known clean fresh fuel and a different fuel line and see if it would run?

posted 07-07-2005 02:44 PM ET (US)            

Additionally, the mechanic spent a couple of hours on the phone with BRP going through the entire diagnostic scenario, and [EMM replacement] is what they all came up with.

Also, whenever the engine quits, the clear fuel filter housing in the engine is always full of clean, clear gasoline, and there is absolutely no evidence of any contamination or desbris in there.

posted 07-07-2005 11:23 PM ET (US)            

It is interesting that the Engine Management Module (EMM) --above I think you refer to this with the acronym ECU but I believe that is not correct--has to be sent back. My guess is there are two reasons for this:

--the factory wants to see this EMM for more analysis of the problem
--they will transfer engine history and setup to the new EMM

In the E-TEC engine the EMM has to be programmed with the serial numbers of the fuel injectors. Each E-TEC fuel injector is tested and calibrated; its serial number contains information about its characteristics. This data is used by the EMM in setting up the fuel mapping for the engine.

I think it is human nature to have some distrust for a mechanical device if it has failed on you once or twice before. I think a lot of husbands have had to buy a lot of wives new cars because of this. I hope that E-TEC gets fixed and your faith in it is quickly restored.

posted 07-08-2005 06:56 AM ET (US)            

Can you send me the serial number on your motor?

seahorse5@hotmail.com

posted 07-08-2005 10:13 AM ET (US)            

Your reasons for the sending the EMM back are exactly what I was thinking too. Once this problem is fixed, there is no doubt in my mind that I will have complete confidence restored in and be very happy with the engine - I just wish I was at that point 4 weeks ago. I'm still very excited about the technology, and I think that BRP has a bright future.

On a sidenote, my dealer called around to the other half dozen or so dealers in the Twin Cities area, and out of about 150 E-Tec's sold over the last couple of years, mine is the only one with any reported problems. I take that as a good sign. Luckilly for me, the problem hasn't kept me off the water - I've just put alot more miles under the keel of my sailboat than I had planned!

Seahorse - you have mail!

Thanks,

posted 07-09-2005 10:36 AM ET (US)            

Please resend your serial number. An email from you has not shown up.

send to:
seahorse5@hotmail.com

posted 07-12-2005 09:38 AM ET (US)            

I re-sent it to seahorse5@hotmail.com.

Nothing was bounced back, so I'm not sure what's going on...

posted 07-12-2005 11:44 AM ET (US)            

BRP tested the EMM, and they found the problem to be exactly as I experienced. They are replacing the EMM with a new one that is shipping to my dealer today. I should be able to pick up the boat tomorrow.

posted 07-12-2005 12:52 PM ET (US)            

Don't worry - when I pick it up this time, I'm going to insist that we fire it up on the hose and check for leaks.

I think the EMM was bad from day 1. The first time I had the boat out (after dealer prep), it died after about 15 minutes, and I had to paddle back to the ramp. I thought that it might have been a fuel problem (though unlikely as I had checked it all out during the instal), so I re-did the entire system. In retrospect, the failure was exactly the same thing I've been battling all along.

posted 07-12-2005 06:27 PM ET (US)            

The factory received the EMM and has not run a complete analysis on it yet, but they were able to duplicate anomalies with it. A new one is on the way to your dealer and it may even show up as early as tomorrow.

posted 07-19-2005 10:17 AM ET (US)            

I ran the engine for about 12 hours this weekend, and it ran flawlessly!