OUTRAGE V-20: Improving Planing - Moderated Discussion Areas

  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
  OUTRAGE V-20: Improving Planing

search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   OUTRAGE V-20: Improving Planing

Hoosier posted 07-24-2005 09:33 AM ET (US)
I've just gotten my OUTRAGE V-20 boat wet and have found some very undesirable behavior. At trolling speeds (500-1000 rpm) the boat/motor combination is a dream. But when accellerating (hole shot) the bow comes way up to where it blocks the horizon. It'll gradually come down as the boat picks up speed but is very sensitive to chop and will porpoise easily. The motor is an 2002 Suzuki DF115. The hull is a 1978, an early one at that. In wandering CW over the past coulpe of years I recall other threads about the sensitive handling of the early Outrage V-20s. Has any one come up with a fix? So far the two things I've leaned are to trim the motor in and get trim tabs. When running at speed, about 25 mph, the motor throws rooster tails both port and starboard, so I'm wondering if the motor is installed incorrectly. Any thoughts?
jimh posted 07-24-2005 10:34 AM ET (US)
I don't have first hand experience with the older V-20 hull, but I did have a 1987 20-foot hull, a REVENGE model.
The two problems you mention, bow rise during transition to plane, and porpoising (an oscillation of the bow up and down when on plane) occur with all boats, although the degree to which they happen varies.
Adding trim tabs will help reduce the bow rise during transition to plane.
Porpoising can be induced in every boat, although I do think that some designs are much more prone to the onset of porpoising.
I offer these suggestions:
Mounting Height
As you suspect, the motor mounting height may not be optimum. In general, most Boston Whaler boats benefit from mounting the engine at one-hole up, that is, using the mounting hole second from the top. If your engine is mounted lower (in the topmost hole), I suggest raising it.
If your engine is already mounted one-hole up, try to observe the anti-ventilation plate on the motor when the boat is on plane. It should be visible above the water. If the plate is running below the water, try raising the engine another hole (to the third hole or "two-holes up" position).
When a motor is mounted at a good height, the anti-ventilation plate will also act as a spray deflector. The spray coming off the leading edge of the lower unit will be deflected downward by the anti-ventilation plate and will be thrown out and astearn.
Setback Bracket
I think you would experience some improvement in performance from using a setback bracket on the 20-foot hull. I added 10-inch setback brackets to my boat and I believe they reduced the tendency to porpoise and also help the overall performance.
Engine Trim
Careful adjustment of engine trim will help minimize porpoising. The more experience I have with outboard boats, the more I see that engine trim is often best over a very narrow range, and changes to trim have to be quite small. It is not unusual to get the engine grossly trimmed too far in or out.
Hoosier posted 07-25-2005 08:04 AM ET (US)
Thanks Jim.
The motor is mounted one hole up. I'll observe the location of the cavitation plate the next time I have her out (about 3 weeks). I always thought that the cavitation plate was supposed to just skim under the surface? From what you said and the spray pattern I've seen, it sounds like the motor is mounted too low. Any thoughts about how to raise the motor without heavy equipment?
newt posted 07-25-2005 08:15 AM ET (US)
Hoosier, My V-20 Revenge shares the same hull as your Outrage, but the cabin adds weight and shifts the balance forward, so the ride -while similar- is not identical.
My observation is that bow rise is no worse than it was on my prior Montauk, but I always trim the engine in all the way before jumping out of the hole, and it makes a huge difference. If the motor is trimmed out at all, time to plane is greater and bow rise is worse.
Also bear in mind that the V-20 hull is rated for 180 horsepower so your Suzuki DF115 probably requires quite a bit more time to get the hull out of the hole. Bow rise would be more noticable since the amount of time that the bow is way up is much greater.
I can't help with the porpoising, because my boat suffers from it also and I have not spent the time to figure it out yet. I can tell you that one of the following factors (or a combination of them) has caused an increase in the tendancy to porpoise from last season to this season:
1. More gear (weight) in the boat.
2. Change of propeller.
3. Raised engine up another hole.
4. More weight in the stern. (I had a single battery under the stern seat, and now have two batteries in the splash well.
I'm hoping Sal weighs in on this thread, since he also has a V-20 Outrage.
Hoosier posted 06-19-2006 12:46 PM ET (US)
I thought I'd add a footnote to this almost one year old thread. I checked on the location of my ventilation plate and it's definitly too low. I haven't figured out how I'm going to raise the engine (none of my tree limbs look strong enough). I did add a hydrofoil and that stopped the bow rise and the porpoising, the boat even is more stable in a chop. I used "The Edge" from CoBRA Marine, it's an all metal, one piece, design that mounts under the cavitation plate. I had it's smaller version, "the Angler" on my Montauk and it worked just as well. Both foils are designed with a slight downward bend on the rear edge, so it acts like a flap and lifts the stern, keeping the bow down.
DeeVee posted 06-19-2006 11:40 PM ET (US)
Hoosier
This weekend I raised the 200 HP Suzuki on my Outrage 22 to the third hole. First I adjusted the trailer tongue so that the end of the lower unit skeg was about 2" off the floor. I
then fabricated a support from 2x blocks, plywood and tapered shims. I cut 2x6's to fit under the anti-ventilation plate, on about a 10 degree angle. I then gusseted the 2x's with strips of plywood. I then cut a 2x4 to fit under the lower unit, directly behind the propeller. I had to drill holes in the top of the blocks to clear lower unit mounting bolt heads and had to bevel the edges slightly, as well as relieve the inside face of the 2x6's to clear the curve of the lower unit. I then shimmed the supports tight.
The weight of the engine was supported by the exhaust housing, above the AV plate, not on the thin flanges of the AV plate. I then removed the top two engine bracket bolts and loosened the bottom two bolts. Since the bottom engine bracket holes are slotted, I left the bottom bolts in.
Next I raised the trailer tongue, which lowered the transom of the boat, relative to the supported engine. After snugging up a couple of bolts, I sealed the other tow bolts, then snugged those up and sealed the other bolts. The project went very smooth. The fabrication of the support and the sealing of the bolts took more time than the actual relocation of the engine.
Doug Vazquez
1989 Outrage 22
Hoosier posted 06-20-2006 08:41 AM ET (US)
Thanks for the input. That actually sounds like a lot of work. I'm thinking about finding a sturdy limb and hanging the engine from it and then using a hydraulic car jack to lift the engine the couple of inches needed. We'll see.......
Sal DiMercurio posted 06-20-2006 11:49 AM ET (US)
You biggest problem is, your way under powered & that boat is struggling to get on plane just as any other boat thats at least 40 hp shy of what it really needs.
I would say your engine is "less" than the minimum hp suggested by Whaler.
Why anyone would put such a small engine on that hull is besides me.
Next is, you most likely have the wrong size prop on her & your trying to get on plane while trimmed out, instead of in.
Of coarse my boat is well over powered & gets on plane at only 1/2 throttle in less than 3 seconds.
There is a point on rpms where the boat likes to leap like a frog while between 3500 rpms & 4500 rpms if trimmed out even just a little.
You have to trim in or give her more throttle.
If my boat starts to porpoise at 4000 rpms & if I give her full throttle she lays right down & allows me to trim out until it darn near hits the tilt portion of the tilt & trim without porpoising at all.
If your engine is mounted all the way down on the lowest set of holes, your gonna leap like a frog & the higher you raise that engine, the less she porpoises.
I run twin group 29 batteries at 60 lbs each [ 120 lbs total ] & had to mount them in the ice chest in front of the CC.
This really helped because 120 lbs worth of batteries sitting in the stern, along with an 80 lb 15 hp 2 stroke kicker, a 505 lb DFI engine made for a stern heavy boat.
Get as much weight as possible forward.
That poor 115 hp engine wont last long being run as hard as you have to run her.
If your prop is anything over a 13pitch or 15pitch, you have the wrong prop on her with a 115 hp engine.
Sal
Tom W Clark posted 06-20-2006 11:52 AM ET (US)
The minimum recommended horsepower for the 1978 Outrage V-20 is 85 HP. It would seem Hoosier's 115 HP Suzuki is well within that recommended horsepower range, not less than it.
SIM posted 06-20-2006 01:30 PM ET (US)
Hoosier........an easier way to raise the engine without a mechanical hoist of some type is to lower the tongue of the trailer all the way down. Tilt the engine all the way down. Put what ever wood blocks under the skeg you need to take up that space. Raise the tongue up on the trailer until pressure is put on the engine skeg. Remove the top engine bolts and loosen the lowers up a little. Once the bolt sealant has released you should be able to raise the engine by jacking up the front of the trailer.
Andy
Hoosier posted 06-20-2006 02:22 PM ET (US)
Sal, you're 11 months late commenting in this thread, we expected you last year...;-)
Anyway, I picked the DF-115 because I can use it as a trolling motor as well as my main engine. I don't have a need to go FAST, mid-twenties is fine with me. The Detour Light is only 2.5 miles from the ramp so I don't run on plane very long. When I fish at the Soo I put the downriggers down about 200 yds from the ramp. Since I put the stabilizer on she'll plane at around 3000 rpm. The prop pitch is 18". I have a Pirahna 14X18 four blade prop on it. That's a composite prop that has replacable blades. I've already had to replace one due to hitting something in the marked channel to the ramp........
Tom W Clark posted 06-20-2006 02:48 PM ET (US)
Ah, a composite prop. I think we found your problem.
VI Jamie 22 posted 06-20-2006 02:49 PM ET (US)
I had a 150 Evinrude Ficht on my v-20 and was only turning a 13 inch SS BRP prop. She was a rocket, even with 12 people, came right on plane as if empty. Sounds like you have too much prop. I sound like a broken record, but be kind to your motor and put a small prop on it.
Hoosier posted 06-20-2006 05:46 PM ET (US)
Tom, what's wrong with a composite prop? My boat spends over 80% of its time on the water trolling, I sure don't need a performance prop for that.
As for raising the motor, I'm starting to think that a jackplate may be a good solution. After looking over Cetacea Page 81, that solution would give me the option to tune the motor height for what I'll be doing. Right now I have a clearance problem with a downrigger bar across the stern when tilted all the way up. But if I moved the motor back, it might avoid that problem.
Tom W Clark posted 06-20-2006 08:14 PM ET (US)
David,
Running a plastic prop on your Whaler is like buying a new car and then putting retreads on it. No wait, that is not a strong enough analogy. It would be like buying a new Cadillac and then installing those little spacer saver spare tires and wheels on it. Just not a great choice.
The only conditions I would ever recommend a plastic prop is if you are running your boat around solid rock and know you are going to chew up the propeller. If that's the case, I'm not sure a Whaler is really the boat for you. You need a nice aluminum hulled jet boat.
You say you 80 percent of your time trolling. That' fine. A plastic prop will be fine for that. But what about the other 20 percent of the time? Why not have a prop that works well? A good prop will be just as good at trolling, so why not?
No, you don't need a "performance prop" and I am not recommending a cleaver, a hand built custom or a "lab finished" or blueprinted prop. I'm simply recommending a stock, off-the-shelf propeller that can allow your boat and motor to perform the way it is supposed to.
The very fact that you started this thread suggest to me that you want to improve the performance of your boat. The fact you would even *consider* a jack plate suggests to me you are far more interested in performance than you claim to be. And you are right to want more performance from your boat. What the hell? Why not?
My honest advice would to try out a good prop and raise your motor one bolt hole. Raising the motor is very simple using the trailer tongue technique described by Sal and Andy. It is a lot less work than hoisting it from a tree limp and way less work and expense than installing a jack plate.
For the price of an installed jackplate you can have any stainless steel propeller you want.
Sal DiMercurio posted 06-20-2006 09:56 PM ET (US)
Hmmmmm, your running a prop thats only 1" less pitch than mine when it's set up for the ocean, & I have at least 100 more horse power than you [ 222 hp at the prop ].
With a 19p Stiletto & the engine dropped down to the 2nd set of holes I run real close to the over rev stop with 222 hp.
How is it you run a 115 - 4 stroke with 18" of pitch on the same hull as mine?
You need to get yourself a decent prop with "NOT" more than 13 or 15p, not 18p.
Unless that composite prop is slipping about 20%, your engine couldn't twist 18" of pitch to 4200 rpms.
Dosen't that 4 stroke engine max at 6000 or 6200 rpms?
I'm sorry but something just isn't adding up here.
Sal
Perry posted 06-21-2006 02:29 AM ET (US)
Let's not forget that the DF115 has a 2.6 gear ratio and a 6000 RPM redline. If the boat can reach 34 MPH and 6000 RPM at WOT with a 8% slip, that would equate to a 17 pitch prop. That is asuming a good prop is used. Suzuki makes a 14 X 16 pitch stainless prop that would probably work good on that boat.
Nick (The Judge) has the same motor on his 19 foot Revenge. I wonder what prop he is using on his rig?
Tom W Clark posted 06-21-2006 02:33 AM ET (US)
Sal,
David's Suzuki 115 turns its propeller through a 2.59:1 gear ratio. Your Ficht 200 turns its propeller through a 1.86:1 ratio. *BIG* difference.
Tom W Clark posted 06-21-2006 02:33 AM ET (US)
Sal,
David's Suzuki 115 turns its propeller through a 2.59:1 gear ratio. Your Ficht 200 turns its propeller through a 1.86:1 ratio. *BIG* difference.
Hoosier posted 06-21-2006 08:46 AM ET (US)
OK, let's get scientific. I'll be back on the water the week of the 4th. I know the engine revs to over 5K, I didn't have my GPS with me so I don't know how fast that was. What quantitative tests do you guys think I should run? Run at WOT and record my GPS speed, or start at 2500 and measure speed every 500 rpm till it tops out? I selected the prop using Piranha's "prop selector", at the time there was only one size available. Now they have more.
prj posted 06-21-2006 09:53 AM ET (US)
With GPS, light load, light fuel and a light assistant,
have the assistant fill out Tom's PDF chart, attached,
while you pay attention to the boat, trim and throttle.
http://home.comcast.net/~tomwclark/Prop_Test_Sheet.pdf
Tom W Clark posted 06-21-2006 11:32 AM ET (US)
Perry,
Nick runs a 14" x 20" Stiletto Advantage I on his DF115:
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004420.html
Hoosier posted 06-21-2006 12:59 PM ET (US)
I went over and read Nick's thread. I get about the same performance up to 4500 rpm, that's where I stopped. It's going to be interesting to actually run some quantitative tests.
Perry posted 06-21-2006 05:57 PM ET (US)
That's where the performance of the composite props falls short. A good prop will maintain the level of performance throughout the RPM range.
Hoosier posted 06-21-2006 07:01 PM ET (US)
As I recall I was doing the high 30's, on a Garmin paddel wheel, when I decided that was fast enough. Been looking at "real" props, Boat Owners World has a special on some SS props for $209, aluminum for $98. (That''s half of what my Pirahna cost last year)
This thread seems to have morphed from boat stability to Suzuki DF-115 performance......
Tom W Clark posted 06-22-2006 01:38 AM ET (US)
David,
I look forward to hearing the results of your testing.
There are lots of deals out there on props. You can buy any good aluminum prop or $100 or less. There is no reason on earth why you should pay $196 for a plastic propeller. That is ridiculous.
I can get you any Stiletto Advantage prop you want for $225, delivered, which is probably less than your B.O. World bargain-basement $209 prop would be.
Hoosier posted 06-22-2006 01:02 PM ET (US)
Thanks Tom.
As for the price of the prop, we all do dumb things, and the older I get the more frequently . (Bad trend.....)
In defense of the Pirahnas that I've been using for about 10 years; where I boat there are lots of rocks and sometimes not much water over them. We also get a fair amout of dead trees/logs the drift into channels. There is a pretty decent flow down the St. Mary's River and a channel can get fouled quickly. I found that out (again) last summer at the old Detour ramp. I went out for a test run and to look at the old train ferry, Arthur Atkinson, that's moored at Detour. Anyway, we were out about an hour and a half and when we came back in the same channel we'd just been through, Wam. Broke two blades. I literally had a white buoy on each side of me when it happened.
The Judge posted 06-22-2006 02:17 PM ET (US)
Yes I run a 14x20 Stilletto SS prop and performance is wonderfull EXCEPT when I have 3 or more people aboard my cruise starts to fall off. This is due to the vent holes I believe. Once over 4200 performance comes back to normal. Tom...do you have plugs for those holes? If so send me 3 sets and a bill. Brian noticed the same thing with his twins, top end is great but cruise is about 2mph slower depending on load. My boat leaps on plane so i don't think the vents are needed although they do help with holeshot.
I actually will break redline by about 100rpm lightly loaded and will do 5900 with 2-3 people on board so I am going to stick with the size. I think plugging the holes will solve my issues.
As far as composite props go...JUNK! I bought a 4 blade 17" for my suzuki 70 which ran 5800 with a 17" SS. I could hit the rev limiter at 6200 with the composite, she flexed like crazy above 25mph or so. Makes a great spare though being it weighs about a pound or less and won't scar the inside of the cooler I kept it in.

Hop to:

Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.

Author	Topic: OUTRAGE V-20: Improving Planing
Hoosier	posted 07-24-2005 09:33 AM ET (US) I've just gotten my OUTRAGE V-20 boat wet and have found some very undesirable behavior. At trolling speeds (500-1000 rpm) the boat/motor combination is a dream. But when accellerating (hole shot) the bow comes way up to where it blocks the horizon. It'll gradually come down as the boat picks up speed but is very sensitive to chop and will porpoise easily. The motor is an 2002 Suzuki DF115. The hull is a 1978, an early one at that. In wandering CW over the past coulpe of years I recall other threads about the sensitive handling of the early Outrage V-20s. Has any one come up with a fix? So far the two things I've leaned are to trim the motor in and get trim tabs. When running at speed, about 25 mph, the motor throws rooster tails both port and starboard, so I'm wondering if the motor is installed incorrectly. Any thoughts?
jimh	posted 07-24-2005 10:34 AM ET (US) I don't have first hand experience with the older V-20 hull, but I did have a 1987 20-foot hull, a REVENGE model. The two problems you mention, bow rise during transition to plane, and porpoising (an oscillation of the bow up and down when on plane) occur with all boats, although the degree to which they happen varies. Adding trim tabs will help reduce the bow rise during transition to plane. Porpoising can be induced in every boat, although I do think that some designs are much more prone to the onset of porpoising. I offer these suggestions: Mounting Height As you suspect, the motor mounting height may not be optimum. In general, most Boston Whaler boats benefit from mounting the engine at one-hole up, that is, using the mounting hole second from the top. If your engine is mounted lower (in the topmost hole), I suggest raising it. If your engine is already mounted one-hole up, try to observe the anti-ventilation plate on the motor when the boat is on plane. It should be visible above the water. If the plate is running below the water, try raising the engine another hole (to the third hole or "two-holes up" position). When a motor is mounted at a good height, the anti-ventilation plate will also act as a spray deflector. The spray coming off the leading edge of the lower unit will be deflected downward by the anti-ventilation plate and will be thrown out and astearn. Setback Bracket I think you would experience some improvement in performance from using a setback bracket on the 20-foot hull. I added 10-inch setback brackets to my boat and I believe they reduced the tendency to porpoise and also help the overall performance. Engine Trim Careful adjustment of engine trim will help minimize porpoising. The more experience I have with outboard boats, the more I see that engine trim is often best over a very narrow range, and changes to trim have to be quite small. It is not unusual to get the engine grossly trimmed too far in or out.
Hoosier	posted 07-25-2005 08:04 AM ET (US) Thanks Jim. The motor is mounted one hole up. I'll observe the location of the cavitation plate the next time I have her out (about 3 weeks). I always thought that the cavitation plate was supposed to just skim under the surface? From what you said and the spray pattern I've seen, it sounds like the motor is mounted too low. Any thoughts about how to raise the motor without heavy equipment?
newt	posted 07-25-2005 08:15 AM ET (US) Hoosier, My V-20 Revenge shares the same hull as your Outrage, but the cabin adds weight and shifts the balance forward, so the ride -while similar- is not identical. My observation is that bow rise is no worse than it was on my prior Montauk, but I always trim the engine in all the way before jumping out of the hole, and it makes a huge difference. If the motor is trimmed out at all, time to plane is greater and bow rise is worse. Also bear in mind that the V-20 hull is rated for 180 horsepower so your Suzuki DF115 probably requires quite a bit more time to get the hull out of the hole. Bow rise would be more noticable since the amount of time that the bow is way up is much greater. I can't help with the porpoising, because my boat suffers from it also and I have not spent the time to figure it out yet. I can tell you that one of the following factors (or a combination of them) has caused an increase in the tendancy to porpoise from last season to this season: 1. More gear (weight) in the boat. 2. Change of propeller. 3. Raised engine up another hole. 4. More weight in the stern. (I had a single battery under the stern seat, and now have two batteries in the splash well. I'm hoping Sal weighs in on this thread, since he also has a V-20 Outrage.
Hoosier	posted 06-19-2006 12:46 PM ET (US) I thought I'd add a footnote to this almost one year old thread. I checked on the location of my ventilation plate and it's definitly too low. I haven't figured out how I'm going to raise the engine (none of my tree limbs look strong enough). I did add a hydrofoil and that stopped the bow rise and the porpoising, the boat even is more stable in a chop. I used "The Edge" from CoBRA Marine, it's an all metal, one piece, design that mounts under the cavitation plate. I had it's smaller version, "the Angler" on my Montauk and it worked just as well. Both foils are designed with a slight downward bend on the rear edge, so it acts like a flap and lifts the stern, keeping the bow down.
DeeVee	posted 06-19-2006 11:40 PM ET (US) Hoosier This weekend I raised the 200 HP Suzuki on my Outrage 22 to the third hole. First I adjusted the trailer tongue so that the end of the lower unit skeg was about 2" off the floor. I then fabricated a support from 2x blocks, plywood and tapered shims. I cut 2x6's to fit under the anti-ventilation plate, on about a 10 degree angle. I then gusseted the 2x's with strips of plywood. I then cut a 2x4 to fit under the lower unit, directly behind the propeller. I had to drill holes in the top of the blocks to clear lower unit mounting bolt heads and had to bevel the edges slightly, as well as relieve the inside face of the 2x6's to clear the curve of the lower unit. I then shimmed the supports tight. The weight of the engine was supported by the exhaust housing, above the AV plate, not on the thin flanges of the AV plate. I then removed the top two engine bracket bolts and loosened the bottom two bolts. Since the bottom engine bracket holes are slotted, I left the bottom bolts in. Next I raised the trailer tongue, which lowered the transom of the boat, relative to the supported engine. After snugging up a couple of bolts, I sealed the other tow bolts, then snugged those up and sealed the other bolts. The project went very smooth. The fabrication of the support and the sealing of the bolts took more time than the actual relocation of the engine. Doug Vazquez 1989 Outrage 22
Hoosier	posted 06-20-2006 08:41 AM ET (US) Thanks for the input. That actually sounds like a lot of work. I'm thinking about finding a sturdy limb and hanging the engine from it and then using a hydraulic car jack to lift the engine the couple of inches needed. We'll see.......
Sal DiMercurio	posted 06-20-2006 11:49 AM ET (US) You biggest problem is, your way under powered & that boat is struggling to get on plane just as any other boat thats at least 40 hp shy of what it really needs. I would say your engine is "less" than the minimum hp suggested by Whaler. Why anyone would put such a small engine on that hull is besides me. Next is, you most likely have the wrong size prop on her & your trying to get on plane while trimmed out, instead of in. Of coarse my boat is well over powered & gets on plane at only 1/2 throttle in less than 3 seconds. There is a point on rpms where the boat likes to leap like a frog while between 3500 rpms & 4500 rpms if trimmed out even just a little. You have to trim in or give her more throttle. If my boat starts to porpoise at 4000 rpms & if I give her full throttle she lays right down & allows me to trim out until it darn near hits the tilt portion of the tilt & trim without porpoising at all. If your engine is mounted all the way down on the lowest set of holes, your gonna leap like a frog & the higher you raise that engine, the less she porpoises. I run twin group 29 batteries at 60 lbs each [ 120 lbs total ] & had to mount them in the ice chest in front of the CC. This really helped because 120 lbs worth of batteries sitting in the stern, along with an 80 lb 15 hp 2 stroke kicker, a 505 lb DFI engine made for a stern heavy boat. Get as much weight as possible forward. That poor 115 hp engine wont last long being run as hard as you have to run her. If your prop is anything over a 13pitch or 15pitch, you have the wrong prop on her with a 115 hp engine. Sal
Tom W Clark	posted 06-20-2006 11:52 AM ET (US) The minimum recommended horsepower for the 1978 Outrage V-20 is 85 HP. It would seem Hoosier's 115 HP Suzuki is well within that recommended horsepower range, not less than it.
SIM	posted 06-20-2006 01:30 PM ET (US) Hoosier........an easier way to raise the engine without a mechanical hoist of some type is to lower the tongue of the trailer all the way down. Tilt the engine all the way down. Put what ever wood blocks under the skeg you need to take up that space. Raise the tongue up on the trailer until pressure is put on the engine skeg. Remove the top engine bolts and loosen the lowers up a little. Once the bolt sealant has released you should be able to raise the engine by jacking up the front of the trailer. Andy
Hoosier	posted 06-20-2006 02:22 PM ET (US) Sal, you're 11 months late commenting in this thread, we expected you last year...;-) Anyway, I picked the DF-115 because I can use it as a trolling motor as well as my main engine. I don't have a need to go FAST, mid-twenties is fine with me. The Detour Light is only 2.5 miles from the ramp so I don't run on plane very long. When I fish at the Soo I put the downriggers down about 200 yds from the ramp. Since I put the stabilizer on she'll plane at around 3000 rpm. The prop pitch is 18". I have a Pirahna 14X18 four blade prop on it. That's a composite prop that has replacable blades. I've already had to replace one due to hitting something in the marked channel to the ramp........
Tom W Clark	posted 06-20-2006 02:48 PM ET (US) Ah, a composite prop. I think we found your problem.
VI Jamie 22	posted 06-20-2006 02:49 PM ET (US) I had a 150 Evinrude Ficht on my v-20 and was only turning a 13 inch SS BRP prop. She was a rocket, even with 12 people, came right on plane as if empty. Sounds like you have too much prop. I sound like a broken record, but be kind to your motor and put a small prop on it.
Hoosier	posted 06-20-2006 05:46 PM ET (US) Tom, what's wrong with a composite prop? My boat spends over 80% of its time on the water trolling, I sure don't need a performance prop for that. As for raising the motor, I'm starting to think that a jackplate may be a good solution. After looking over Cetacea Page 81, that solution would give me the option to tune the motor height for what I'll be doing. Right now I have a clearance problem with a downrigger bar across the stern when tilted all the way up. But if I moved the motor back, it might avoid that problem.
Tom W Clark	posted 06-20-2006 08:14 PM ET (US) David, Running a plastic prop on your Whaler is like buying a new car and then putting retreads on it. No wait, that is not a strong enough analogy. It would be like buying a new Cadillac and then installing those little spacer saver spare tires and wheels on it. Just not a great choice. The only conditions I would ever recommend a plastic prop is if you are running your boat around solid rock and know you are going to chew up the propeller. If that's the case, I'm not sure a Whaler is really the boat for you. You need a nice aluminum hulled jet boat. You say you 80 percent of your time trolling. That' fine. A plastic prop will be fine for that. But what about the other 20 percent of the time? Why not have a prop that works well? A good prop will be just as good at trolling, so why not? No, you don't need a "performance prop" and I am not recommending a cleaver, a hand built custom or a "lab finished" or blueprinted prop. I'm simply recommending a stock, off-the-shelf propeller that can allow your boat and motor to perform the way it is supposed to. The very fact that you started this thread suggest to me that you want to improve the performance of your boat. The fact you would even consider a jack plate suggests to me you are far more interested in performance than you claim to be. And you are right to want more performance from your boat. What the hell? Why not? My honest advice would to try out a good prop and raise your motor one bolt hole. Raising the motor is very simple using the trailer tongue technique described by Sal and Andy. It is a lot less work than hoisting it from a tree limp and way less work and expense than installing a jack plate. For the price of an installed jackplate you can have any stainless steel propeller you want.
Sal DiMercurio	posted 06-20-2006 09:56 PM ET (US) Hmmmmm, your running a prop thats only 1" less pitch than mine when it's set up for the ocean, & I have at least 100 more horse power than you [ 222 hp at the prop ]. With a 19p Stiletto & the engine dropped down to the 2nd set of holes I run real close to the over rev stop with 222 hp. How is it you run a 115 - 4 stroke with 18" of pitch on the same hull as mine? You need to get yourself a decent prop with "NOT" more than 13 or 15p, not 18p. Unless that composite prop is slipping about 20%, your engine couldn't twist 18" of pitch to 4200 rpms. Dosen't that 4 stroke engine max at 6000 or 6200 rpms? I'm sorry but something just isn't adding up here. Sal
Perry	posted 06-21-2006 02:29 AM ET (US) Let's not forget that the DF115 has a 2.6 gear ratio and a 6000 RPM redline. If the boat can reach 34 MPH and 6000 RPM at WOT with a 8% slip, that would equate to a 17 pitch prop. That is asuming a good prop is used. Suzuki makes a 14 X 16 pitch stainless prop that would probably work good on that boat. Nick (The Judge) has the same motor on his 19 foot Revenge. I wonder what prop he is using on his rig?
Tom W Clark	posted 06-21-2006 02:33 AM ET (US) Sal, David's Suzuki 115 turns its propeller through a 2.59:1 gear ratio. Your Ficht 200 turns its propeller through a 1.86:1 ratio. BIG difference.
Tom W Clark	posted 06-21-2006 02:33 AM ET (US) Sal, David's Suzuki 115 turns its propeller through a 2.59:1 gear ratio. Your Ficht 200 turns its propeller through a 1.86:1 ratio. BIG difference.
Hoosier	posted 06-21-2006 08:46 AM ET (US) OK, let's get scientific. I'll be back on the water the week of the 4th. I know the engine revs to over 5K, I didn't have my GPS with me so I don't know how fast that was. What quantitative tests do you guys think I should run? Run at WOT and record my GPS speed, or start at 2500 and measure speed every 500 rpm till it tops out? I selected the prop using Piranha's "prop selector", at the time there was only one size available. Now they have more.
prj	posted 06-21-2006 09:53 AM ET (US) With GPS, light load, light fuel and a light assistant, have the assistant fill out Tom's PDF chart, attached, while you pay attention to the boat, trim and throttle. http://home.comcast.net/~tomwclark/Prop_Test_Sheet.pdf
Tom W Clark	posted 06-21-2006 11:32 AM ET (US) Perry, Nick runs a 14" x 20" Stiletto Advantage I on his DF115: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/004420.html
Hoosier	posted 06-21-2006 12:59 PM ET (US) I went over and read Nick's thread. I get about the same performance up to 4500 rpm, that's where I stopped. It's going to be interesting to actually run some quantitative tests.
Perry	posted 06-21-2006 05:57 PM ET (US) That's where the performance of the composite props falls short. A good prop will maintain the level of performance throughout the RPM range.
Hoosier	posted 06-21-2006 07:01 PM ET (US) As I recall I was doing the high 30's, on a Garmin paddel wheel, when I decided that was fast enough. Been looking at "real" props, Boat Owners World has a special on some SS props for $209, aluminum for $98. (That''s half of what my Pirahna cost last year) This thread seems to have morphed from boat stability to Suzuki DF-115 performance......
Tom W Clark	posted 06-22-2006 01:38 AM ET (US) David, I look forward to hearing the results of your testing. There are lots of deals out there on props. You can buy any good aluminum prop or $100 or less. There is no reason on earth why you should pay $196 for a plastic propeller. That is ridiculous. I can get you any Stiletto Advantage prop you want for $225, delivered, which is probably less than your B.O. World bargain-basement $209 prop would be.
Hoosier	posted 06-22-2006 01:02 PM ET (US) Thanks Tom. As for the price of the prop, we all do dumb things, and the older I get the more frequently . (Bad trend.....) In defense of the Pirahnas that I've been using for about 10 years; where I boat there are lots of rocks and sometimes not much water over them. We also get a fair amout of dead trees/logs the drift into channels. There is a pretty decent flow down the St. Mary's River and a channel can get fouled quickly. I found that out (again) last summer at the old Detour ramp. I went out for a test run and to look at the old train ferry, Arthur Atkinson, that's moored at Detour. Anyway, we were out about an hour and a half and when we came back in the same channel we'd just been through, Wam. Broke two blades. I literally had a white buoy on each side of me when it happened.
The Judge	posted 06-22-2006 02:17 PM ET (US) Yes I run a 14x20 Stilletto SS prop and performance is wonderfull EXCEPT when I have 3 or more people aboard my cruise starts to fall off. This is due to the vent holes I believe. Once over 4200 performance comes back to normal. Tom...do you have plugs for those holes? If so send me 3 sets and a bill. Brian noticed the same thing with his twins, top end is great but cruise is about 2mph slower depending on load. My boat leaps on plane so i don't think the vents are needed although they do help with holeshot. I actually will break redline by about 100rpm lightly loaded and will do 5900 with 2-3 people on board so I am going to stick with the size. I think plugging the holes will solve my issues. As far as composite props go...JUNK! I bought a 4 blade 17" for my suzuki 70 which ran 5800 with a 17" SS. I could hit the rev limiter at 6200 with the composite, she flexed like crazy above 25mph or so. Makes a great spare though being it weighs about a pound or less and won't scar the inside of the cooler I kept it in.