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Diesel E-TECs
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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
Diesel E-TECs
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| Author | Topic: Diesel E-TECs |
| Peter James Morgan |
posted 07-29-2005 07:06 PM ET (US)  
I've just noticed that on the Evinrude website there is a section "Govt & Military" and in it there is a section on Evinrude multifuel outboards, including a 200hp E-TEC. Here's the URL: http://gov.evinrude.com/communications/pdf/EVINRUDE_MFE_Final.pdf They'll run on JP-4, JP-5, JP-8, diesel, F-76, DF-1, DF-2, kerosene, or gasoline, and can change fuel capability "at the flick of a switch." In New Zealand (where I live) and in most of Europe I believe, gasoline is much more heavily taxed at source than diesel. Diesel road vehicles pay a road user charge based on distance travelled and the unladen weight of the vehicle, whereas the tax on gasoline is included in the pump price, with no rebate for boaters. Consequently, for powerboats gasoline costs around 40% more than diesel. This, coupled with the fact that diesel contains around 17% more energy per gallon than gasoline, means that even at the same thermal efficiency, it costs around 60% more per mile for fuel to run a boat on gasoline rather than on diesel, and we all know that diesel engines are generally more thermodynamically efficient than gasoline engines. Therefore, a 200hp E-TEC that runs on diesel would be a winner in New Zealand and most of Europe as long as it cost about the same as the gasoline version and required no more maintenance. This should be the case for a dedicated diesel E-TEC, as the only difference is in the software loaded onto the EMM. A diesel that is the same physically in dimensions and weight as an all-aluminum 2-stroke gasoline engine, that gets 200 shaft hp from only 3.3 litres without the complexity of turbocharging and intercooling and without a high-pressure fuel pump and common rail fuel delivery system, and with no valves, no cam belts or chains, and the alternator integral with the flywheel, is not just new, it's potentially a revolutionary world-beater, and not just on boats, but road vehicles as well. I can't help wondering if it has occurred to BRP just how clever and versatile the E-TEC fuel injector really is. Do any of you have any knowledge of these motors that you could share with us? Thanks in anticipation. Peter J. Morgan |
| seahorse |
posted 07-29-2005 07:26 PM ET (US)
These are not diesel outboards but outboards that can operate on JP7 fuel and some others. The Navy is outlawing the storage of gasoline aboard ships and that is why the multi-fuel capability of the military version of the E-TEC. So far there are no plans to offer the motors to the public. There have been multi-fuel FICHTS for quite a few years already. From what I heard from a vendor not involved with military outboards but who exibited at the Norfolk Naval Show last year was that the E=TEC's ran OK, but they do lose a lot of power burning the jet fuel and the Merc Optimax version smoked heavily and had drivability problems. Now if they can make their engines submersible like the specialty SEAL outboards (gas powered), then they will have something. |
| Peter James Morgan |
posted 07-29-2005 10:54 PM ET (US)
Seahorse: I'm guessing that you didn't follow the link I posted, that would have taken you to Evinrude's website. Below, I've copied and pasted some of the text. If an engine runs on diesel with no loss in performance (I quote from the copied and pasted text below: "Simply flip a switch and change fuels without compromising performance."), then by definition it's a diesel, regardless of which thermodynamic cycle it operates on. Saying it's not because it also runs on gasoline reminds me of one of my high school science teachers telling us that elephants are called elephants because they look so very like elephants! If the claim, "without compromising performance" is actually true, and I have no reason to assume that BRP would try to BS the United States military, BRP could offer a dedicated diesel E-TEC for recreational and commercial use simply by installing the appropriate software on the EMM and putting "Diesel" decals on the cowl. I think it would be a world-beating winner! Many boaters in New Zealand would find it hard to resist an outboard that saved them nearly 40% in fuel costs and cost the same to buy as the gasoline version "without compromising performance". Here's the text I copied and pasted from Evinrude's website: ANY PLACE, ANY FUEL. |
| Peter |
posted 07-30-2005 07:29 AM ET (US)
Diesel engines typically have high compression ratios (20:1) and the heat generated by the compression of the air ignites the diesel fuel that is injected into the compressed air mixture. See auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel1.htm . These MFE appear to be the same low compression, spark ignition engines offered on the recreational side but with their engine management module capable of being programmed to compensate for burning a variety of fuels. Without the high compression ratio, these MFE engines would not have the superior efficiency attributed to diesel engines. Still interesting technology, but I agree with Seahorse, I wouldn't call these diesel engines. |
| 15ftlover |
posted 07-31-2005 01:06 AM ET (US)
Without the higher compression ratio are the engines really going to get a full burn out of the diesel fuel and release the extra energy potentially available? Would it still rate the same shaft horsepower? Hmmm Hen |
| Peter James Morgan |
posted 07-31-2005 04:33 AM ET (US)
That's a really interesting question that 15ft leftover has asked. BRP claims that there is no loss in performance, so undoubtedly the 3.3-litre E-TEC will produce 200hp at the prop as claimed. The extra mileage that diesels generally get over gasoline engines is for basically two reasons: 1. Diesel fuel itself contains around 17% more energy per gallon than gasoline, and 2. A typical diesel has a compression ratio around 18:1 whereas a typical gasoline 4-stroke has a compression ratio around 10:1 and this gives diesel engines a significantly higher thermodynamic efficiency than gasoline engines. The main reason why diesels can have a higher compression ratio is that being direct injection engines, they do not suffer from detonation as do gasoline engines. For example, on Mitsubishi's website on its gasoline direct injection (GDI) engines, it quotes a typical compression ratio for a multiport EFI gasoline engine as being 10:1 and a typical compression ratio for a GDI engine as being 12:1, which improves fuel efficiency by around 10%. A diesel with a compression ratio of 18:1 would show an even greater gain. Presumably, being a 2-stroke primarily designed to run on gasoline, the 200hp E-TEC has a compression ratio of around 7:1 and this would presumably preclude it from the gain in fuel efficiency to be had from having a compression ratio of say 18:1. It may be that to ensure a complete burn, BRP's engineers have programmed the EMM to fire each spark plug several times in quick succession -- the magneto ought to be able to cope with that -- it would be great to know just what they've done. Nevertheless, because of the peculiar way that gasoline is presently taxed in New Zealand and most of Europe, a dedicated diesel E-TEC would enjoy a very significant advantage in terms of dollars of fuel burned per mile, which would, I believe, make it a winner, provided BRP did the decent thing and sold it at the same price as the dedicated gasoline version, given that the only difference is in the software and the decals on the cowl. Given the inventiveness and enterprise that abounds in all sorts of places, I should not be surprised if aftermarket software programs become available to indeed turn any out-of-warranty E-TEC into a dedicated diesel. They would run pretty well too on (virtually untaxable) homemade biodiesel made from waste cooking oil – a fuel that, being biodegradable, is very environmentally friendly and very inexpensive -- and the exhaust smells pretty good, too. We do indeed live in interesting times! |
| erik selis |
posted 07-31-2005 05:17 AM ET (US)
I believe we've discussed the idea of fishing to the pleasant smell of fish'n chips before on the forum. All we really need is a volunteer with an E-TEC engine that's able to re-write the software. Anyone? Great thoughts though. An engine like this would sell like hotcakes here in Europe. Erik |
| Peter James Morgan |
posted 07-31-2005 08:59 AM ET (US)
Erik, would you mind letting us know what the prices of diesel and regular gasoline are where you live, in euro/litre, and telling us where that is, and give us an idea if they are more or less across the board prices across Europe? Or does each country have different tax rates on motor fuels? One thing -- in New Zealand, there are more on-the-water diesel pumps than there are gasoline pumps. Thanks in anticipation. PJM |
| fourdfish |
posted 07-31-2005 09:14 PM ET (US)
I have a 200hp E-TEC and the milage I'm getting is really great. Right now in the midwest, USA diesel is selling for a signifacantly higher price than reg gasoline. I would see no point at this time to see the E-TEC burn diesel. I do not see any real savings even if it was somewhat more effecient. By the way Peter James, Seahorse knows much more about the E-TEC than anyone around. |
| bsmotril |
posted 07-31-2005 09:31 PM ET (US)
You don't have to have high compression in a diesel if you have an ariticial ignition source like a spark plug. Then you no longer have to rely on heat of compression for ignition. The vaporized oil spray from the high pressure injector will ignite fine with a spark. Every look inside an oil burning furnace? The philisophical question then becomes "is it still really a diesel?" Nope, it's a multifuel motor that happens to burn diesel fuel. BillS |
| bsmotril |
posted 07-31-2005 09:35 PM ET (US)
Fourfish, When you buy diesel fuel for marine or commercial use without highway or state taxes added, it is now selling for about $1.50 a gallon on the TX Gulf Coast. That is much better than gas, even if I saved all my receipts and submitted a yearly request for hwy tax refund on my gas purchases which are non road and for marine use. Check your local state laws, you may be entitled to such rebates to for gas you buy for your boat. Bills |
| where2 |
posted 07-31-2005 10:36 PM ET (US)
Upon my last outing which was saddly some weeks ago, Diesel at the Marina was $2.35/gallon, while Gasoline was $3.20/gallon. If I had a 320 Outrage with twin 200's I could save over $100 per fillup if it ran off Diesel... Yes, if we're talking a Montauk with a little ETEC on it being filled at the local automotive fuel station, there is no great incentive. However, there are larger thirstier whales in the sea who don't necessarily stop at the corner filling station for a refueling... |
| Peter James Morgan |
posted 07-31-2005 11:14 PM ET (US)
Let's not get too pedantic about whether they're diesels or not. I believe that BRP's E-TEC fuel injector has wrought such a revolution in internal combustion engines that it is causing us to re-think our definitions as to what constitutes an internal combustion reciprocating diesel engine and what constitutes an internal combustion reciprocating gasoline engine. I believe that ultimately the only valid definition is that an internal combustion reciprocating diesel engine is one that runs on diesel. All I'm trying to point out, and I hope Seahorse will talk seriously to the senior marketing people at BRP about this, is that E-TECs with "DIESEL" decals on their cowls, with their EMMs programmed to run only on diesel (in which case they would not be multifuel engines), would, provided they were the same price as the gasoline version, sell really well to recreational and commercial boaters in Europe and "Down Under", where each one would run for less than half the dollars per mile of the same size gasoline E-TEC. This would be a market many times greater than the govt/military market, and one which I believe BRP should get into post haste. Just because diesel E-TECs "wouldn't play in Peoria" is no reason to suppose that they wouldn't play very well indeed in the rest of the world. Given that BRP's dealers already have been delegated the responsibility of re-programming E-TEC EMMs for running exclusively on BRP's XD 100T synthetic oil, I see no great difficulty in delegating them the further responsibility of reprogramming E-TEC EMMs for running exclusively on diesel, while at the same time applying a pair of "DIESEL" decals to the cowling. This would obviate the need for BRP to have any distinction between gasoline and diesel E-TECs either during manufacturing or shipping. "The greatest thing since sliced bread?" "You bet. How thinly sliced would you like your bread, sir? We can slice it right here in the shop, while it's still in the bag!" Diesel E-TECs may even sell to those boaters in North America for whom either fossil diesel or biodiesel is a more economical proposition than gasoline. Imagine catching fish with your biodiesel-burning E-TEC and being able to get a faint whiff of the smell of fries while you're out there! PJM |
| Peter James Morgan |
posted 07-31-2005 11:56 PM ET (US)
Where2, When the superior energy density of diesel is factored in, the diesel price effectively drops from $2.35 per gallon to $2.00 per gallon of gasoline equivalent, making the saving 40% -- that's $117 saved per fill-up -- buys quite a lot of beer and even makes up for the odd lost lure -- might even allow you to have the occasional bottle of Kentucky Straight of JD as well! Provided in every other respect your motors performed the same, I'm sure you'll agree that that would be a darn good trade-off. Running on biodiesel would be even better, not even counting the smell of the fries! PJM |
| erik selis |
posted 08-01-2005 06:56 AM ET (US)
PJM, To answer your question, we pay $6.48 for Super 98 and $6.00 for Regular 95. ($5.21 for diesel). These are prices for US gallons. Prices differ from day to day but this would be the average price with the current exchange rate. In most countries of the EU you will find the fuel prices to be approx. the same. The UK and Luxembourg are exceptions. Fuel prices in the UK are more expensive than average and in Luxembourg are less expensive. You could probably say that 60% of the price we pay for fuel is filling the government's pockets and paying for the so-called social benefits...(more like some people's own pockets if you ask me). But let's face it, we get taxed for everything and anything over here....enough whining. If I had a boat with a large engine, like i.e. a 200-hp, I would prefer a diesel because of the fuel efficiency and the fuel price. If something like the E-TEC could run efficiently on diesel I could guaranty that this would sell like crazy in Europe. There are more benefits to having an outboard diesel engine than a inboard diesel if you ask me. Erik |
| Peter James Morgan |
posted 08-01-2005 08:20 AM ET (US)
Erik, I'm sure you're right! Diesel here in Auckland, New Zealand, is currently US$5.23/US gallon, and regular 91 octane gasoline is US$7.79/US gallon. As in Europe, the government taxes the hell out of fuel. Fortunately, they haven't yet succeeded in taxing the fun out of it, and there are more outboard boats per capita in New Zealand than any other country on planet earth, and some wonderful fishing, too! It is said that no New Zealander lives more than 150 km from a boat ramp into the sea -- and even less for a lake or river. Factoring in diesel's 17.4% advantage in energy density means that the fuel cost in dollars per nautical mile for a gasoline E-TEC in New Zealand would be 75% more than it would be for a diesel E-TEC. I've heard that biodesel can be bought for 40% less than petroleum diesel, and if that's true then the extra cost for gasoline over biodiesel would jump to 190% -- even more if boaters made the biodiesl for themselves -- there's lots of info on the Net about doing it. If all other things are equal, making the choice between a diesel E-TEC and a gasoline E-TEC becomes a no-brainer! If I was a marketing man at BRP, I'd be giving this some serious thought, given no extra manufacturing and distribution costs and the dealers applying the diesel decals on the cowls and reprogramming the EMMs for diesel, at the time of purchase. What do you say, Seahorse? PJM |
| RocketMan |
posted 08-01-2005 09:12 PM ET (US)
Interesting subject, the more user reports, the better. A real diesel engine classically has a narrow rpm band so it would be nice to know how an ETEC would accelerate with diesel over its normal operating range as well as steady-state fuel consumption at different engine speeds. If those performance characteritics were even close, then running diesel fuel could be a real plus for volatility/safety reasons, especially if the cost/gallon was comparable. |
| JayR |
posted 08-02-2005 12:58 PM ET (US)
Hmmmmmm.... I could really save some cash running #2 Home heating fuel in an outboard. It works just great in my ford pick up. |
| Vek |
posted 08-02-2005 06:49 PM ET (US)
To preface, I know little of the specifics of multi-fuel motors and the capability of spark-ignition of diesel at lower-than-compression-ignition compression ratios (say, 10-12:1). Bear with me - for this, I have to hearken back eight years to my junior-level thermogoddamics class. Many of my cohorts repeated that class - one unfortunate fellow, twice... As a helpful background, the combustion processes used by familar, reciprocating-piston internal combustion engines are not classified as "gasoline" or "diesel", but rather Otto-cycle or Diesel cycle, named after Rudolf Diesel and some Otto guy. The Otto cycle is familar to us as spark-ignition, whereas the diesel cycle (duh) is autoignition of the fuel due to heat of compression (use the ideal gas law PV = mRT to calculate pre-injection cylinder temperature, where m and R are constant). To summarize, if you track the simplified combustion events on a pressure vs. volume chart, you notice a difference. There is a spike in pressure corresponding with the spark ignition in the Otto cycle. This makes sense: you have a fuel-air mixture compressed to not-quite the autoignition temperature of the fuel in air, which basically explodes when the ignition source (spark) is introduced. There is a steady maintenance of high cylinder pressure as cylinder volume increases in a Diesel cycle motor (no spike). This makes sense: diesel is sprayed in the cylinder when the air in the cylinder reaches the auto-ignition temperature of diesel. The cylinder does not receive an instantaneous burst of fuel, rather, the injection takes place over many degrees of crank rotation, spreading the combustion event over time. Do not confuse the direct fuel injection of the ficht/etec/hpdi/opti/orbital motors with the diesel combustion cycle. In these modern outboard engines, fuel is injected when the piston passes the intake and exhaust ports, and injection is complete before the spark (or is it? this may be worth investigating further). Regardless, these are characteristically Otto engines, given the spark ignition. Thus distinguished are your typical "gas" and "diesel" engines. The newer generation of ficht/etec/hpdi/opti/orbital motors may be capable of so thoroughly atomizing and mixing the fuel (JP8, jet, kero, #1, #2, whatever) with the combustion air, that it may be possible to ignite the mixture with a spark at less-than-autoignition temperature (Otto), rather than using the heat of compression (Diesel). Remember that in your typical "gas" engine, the gasoline is basically evaporated into the combustion air, or at the very least, atomized finely and mixed thoroughly. I don't see this happening using jp8/jet/kero/#2/#1 in a typical low-pressure non-direct injection (in the inlet port or throttle body) or carburation. Maybe the etec injectors atomize the fuel so thoroughly, that spark ignition is possible. This is what I'm ultimately getting at... |
| Peter James Morgan |
posted 08-03-2005 08:40 AM ET (US)
Thanks, Vek, for your post. I've just learned from an ex Mercury mechanic that at the Merc training school here in Aucklamd they've had a pre-production direct injected Mercury outboard since 1996 and they run it during training courses. At some stage during a course its gasoline supply is disconnected and it's then plugged in to a small portable tank of diesel fuel, whereupon it amazes the trainees when it just keeps running as though nothing had happened. I'm told that Mercury, too, has multifuel OptiMaxes for govt and military customers. Maybe Yamaha does, too., with its HPDIs. Perhaps if gasoline in the USA was twice the price it is now, and also 40% more expensive than diesel fuel, Mercury and BRP would market dedicated diesel versions of their direct injection 2-strokes. PJM |
| bsmotril |
posted 08-03-2005 09:24 AM ET (US)
Most likley what will determine whether or not these multifuel, or diesel outboards get offered to the public is their ability to meet the current clean air standards. If they don't, the cost of R&D to make them compliant may outweigh any potential profit. BillS |
| erik selis |
posted 08-03-2005 10:36 AM ET (US)
That's pretty interesting information there PJM. I also think that BillS makes a very good point. Erik |
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