Forum: WHALER
  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
  Horsepower Rating Standards

Post New Topic  Post Reply
search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   Horsepower Rating Standards
rtk posted 01-07-2007 04:44 PM ET (US)   Profile for rtk   Send Email to rtk  
There has been alot of discussion on the actual vs advertised horsepower of marine engines.

I did a little digging on how horsepower is actually calculated, and the only thing I came up with is there are many different methods used to calculate horsepower.

I started here:

www.answers.com/topic/horsepower

"SAE-certified horsepower
In 2005, the Society of Automotive Engineers introduced a new test procedure (J2723) for engine horsepower and torque. The procedure eliminates some of the areas of flexibility in power measurement, and requires an independent observer present when engines are measured. The test is voluntary, but engines completing it can be advertised as "SAE-certified".

Many manufacturers began switching to the new rating immediately, often with surprising results. The rated output of Cadillac's supercharged Northstar V8 jumped from 440 hp (328 kW) to 469 hp (350 kW) under the new tests, while the rating for Toyota's Camry 3.0 L 1MZ-FE V6 fell from 210 hp (157 kW) to 190 hp (142 kW). The first engine certified under the new program was the 7.0 L LS7 used in the 2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06. Certified power rose slightly from 500 hp (373 kW) to 505 hp (377 kW)."

Based on this section from the website, it appears to me that there are many different ways to rate the horsepower of an engine. The example deals with automobile ratings, but really no difference to me with regard to boat engines.

What's my point? There has been alot of back and forth on the actual horsepower rating of outboard engines. The actual method in which the horsepower is estimated, or rated, seems to skew the numbers more than marketing "tricks".

Do all manufacturers of marine engines use the same method to calculate horsepower? If not, that could explain some differences in performance of similiarly rated and advertised horsepower engines, different manufacturers, on similar hulls. Maybe the 10% difference "rule" is there because there are many ways to measure horsepower, and no standard in the marine industry to rate horsepower?

Rich


Peter posted 01-07-2007 05:52 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I believe that all the major manufacturers follow International Council of Marine Industry Association's (ICOMIA) Standard 28-83 for measuring and designating HP. See continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/ICOMIA28-83.html for further details on the standard.
XStech posted 01-07-2007 05:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for XStech  Send Email to XStech     
They all have to certify to ISO 3046.

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/ICOMIA28-83.html

seahorse posted 01-07-2007 06:35 PM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse  Send Email to seahorse     
As the others have stated, all outboard manufacturers abide by the ICOMIA standards.

In the past there were different ways of stating horsepower and the following article (long) may help with understanding the reason for industry accepted standards.

-------------------------------

What is Corrected Horsepower?

We have all seen and made claims of an engine’s horsepower. However, this stated horsepower is almost never what the engine actually made for power. How can that be? Most of the stated horsepower numbers are “Corrected” values. The correction standards were developed to discount the observed horsepower readings taken at different locations and weather conditions. It is obvious that an engine builder in Colorado could not produce as much horsepower as a shop at sea level. There is just less oxygen for the engine to burn at the higher altitude. What are less obvious are the other weather condition effects on the engine. So in order to compensate for this all advertised horsepower is “corrected” to several different industry standards.
Most of you know about Atmospheric Correction Factors that are used to compare an engines power output for one day or location to another. However, these factors can be rather confusing and even deceptive. Everybody seems to declare there engine’s horsepower as “etched in stone” number, however we also know that the engine will make very different power on different days. Excluding other factors like engine temperature and quality of fuel used, the engine output is very dependant on the amount of oxygen in the air. So the only way to compare an engine’s horsepower is to correct the output on a given day to some standard.
The most common are the SAE standards. The older J607 standard considers that the engine was run on a 60°F day with 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.92 in-Hg or the newer SAE J1349 standard of 77°F (25°C) day with 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.234 in-Hg (99 KPa). Also the ECE standard is the same as the SAE J1349, but does not use mechanical efficiency in the calculations. The DIN standard which corrects to 68°F (20° C) day with 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.92 in-Hg (101.3 KPa) and the JIS standard corrects 77°F (25° C) day with 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.234 in-Hg (99 KPa), but uses different correction curves than the others (as a substitution for using mechanical efficiency factors). Further, we have the J1995 corrects 77°F (25° C) day with 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.53 in-Hg (100 KPa).
Since very few engines are actually run in these conditions we apply these correction factors so that it is possible to compare the results taken on different days. First lets just look at the weather correction, we will see the second section dealing with mechanical efficiency later. Consider if you take a baseline run of a normally aspirated four stroke V-8 engine on a sultry day in late August, say 85°F and 85% humidity and 28.85 in-Hg and the engine produced 400 Hp. Then after you finished making all your modifications you retest the engine in late September when it is 55°F and 35% humidity and 30.10 in-Hg, the engine now makes 442 Hp. That’s almost an 11 percent increase in Hp, however the engine is actually producing the exact same amount of horsepower according to the J607 correction values of 400 Hp * 1.1005 ≈ 440 Hp and 442 * 0.994 ≈ 440 Hp. If you had retested the engine in the same weather conditions it would have made 400 Hp again.
There are many different correction “Standards” out there, but here is the SAE J1349 formula:

cf is the final correction factor multiplier
Pd is the pressure of dry air in hPa
(990 hPA = 99 kPa)
Tc is the air's temperature in degrees Celsius
One more source of confusion about the SAE J1349 is all the different values quoted for the Barometric Pressure in inches of Mercury. If you search around you will find the base values are different. Some will quote 29.234 in-Hg and others 29.318 and others 29.380. How can they all be correct? Well the calculations are done in KPa or millibars. These units are all true pressures, however inches of mercury, although considered a pressure unit, changes with temperature. This is because mercury expands as it gets warmer. Therefore 99 KPa at 32°F is 29.234 in-Hg and 99 KPa at 60°F is 29.318 in-Hg.
Now this may sound confusing, but these formulas were developed to attempt to allow standardize advertised hp ratings and comparisons. The formulas are based on the amount of oxygen that is found in the air that the engine is breathing. The greater oxygen the more fuel can be burned and thus more horsepower. However, these formulas are not perfect. They were developed empirically and are a good approximation for the variables of humidity, temperature, and absolute pressure. However, internal combustion engines develop power on many other variables and although it is possible to have the same correction factor at high temperature and pressure as low temperature and pressure, the engine will make different power. The wetting effect and temperature differences are not perfectly compensated for. This gives rise to the “purist” touting that all engines must be tested at the same atmospheric conditions or else the results are useless. In a prefect world this would be true, but this would be ludicrous. The cost of building an environmentally standardized test cell is well beyond the capabilities and cost of even large OEM companies and would give rise to even more deception in horsepower advertising.
Now lets consider the next effect on the SAE standard that some other industrial standards do not include, the “Mechanical Efficiency” of the engine. Which is basically the amount of energy the engine got from the fuel versus how much energy actually was produced at the flywheel. This is a measure that includes the frictional torque, viscous effect, etc. required to rotate the engine. If we take the SAE standard that a four stroke normally aspirated engine consumes 15% of its’ developed horsepower to rotate the engine. This is another huge point of debate, but it does make sense. If we want to correct the observed horsepower to a standard condition, it make sense that the friction required to rotate the engine does not change with added oxygen in the air. So in the last example the engine produce 400 Hp on that hot August day. This time consider the SAE J1349 correction standard which has a correction factor of 1.0634. According to the SAE 15% standard it took 70.58 Hp (400 / 0.85 – 400 = 70.58) to overcome the friction from ring drag, bearings, valve train, etc. Since this is a constant value no matter where the dyno test was taken, we know that the energy produced by the engine was actually 400 + 70.58 = 470.58 Hp. Now if we want to compensate for the atmospheric condition then we should use the amount of energy that the engine got from the fuel supply. So we take the 470.58 Hp * 1.0634 = 500.42 and then subtract out the constant Hp reading of 70.58. 500.42 – 70.58 ≈ 430 Hp.
Now it does make sense that the frictional torque is almost constant no matter how much oxygen was in the air, but the SAE flat rate 15% does not accurately cover all internal combustion engines. It is a compromise. In the example above we used a normally aspirated 4 stroke V-8 engine, but what if it were a two stroke V-8 outboard engine. It is quite obvious that the two stroke has much less frictional drag. It has no camshaft, timing chain, valves and springs, oil in the crankcase, etc. Comparing these two engines with the same 15% friction losses does not work. That is why some higher end dynoing software calculate the friction losses on many different variables, like the displacement, stroke for piston speed, type of aspiration, number of strokes, type of fuel, and RPM. Using this information will yield much greater accuracy in calculating a mechanical efficiency and therefore a much greater accuracy for in house comparisons between pulls. However, in order to advertise the value as SAE J1349 compliant you must usually use the SAE mechanical efficiency number.
Another way to get accurate mechanical efficiency is to use a dyno that can “motor” the engine, like an AC dyno. Just measure the amount of power it takes to drive the engine and then use those values for your own custom mechanical efficiency. Once again though, you will need a high-end software package that will easily allow you to use the new efficiency or else you will be doing a lot of tedious and time-consuming hand calculations. But once again, this solution is not perfect either. Many will argue correctly that motoring the engine is not the same because there was no heat, bearing loads, metal deformation, etc.
Some companies who are working on a particular engine family will actually test the same engine under many different conditions and develop their own correction table. To these companies it is vital to know how their engines will perform under specific varying conditions. Consider snowmobiles that will operate at many different altitudes and temperatures, but they can pretty much discount the effects of humidity because the engine will almost always operate at temperatures below freezing. However, it is critical that their engines perform well at extremely different barometric pressures. An exhaust designed to run at sea level will not perform well at all in the mountains. Further, the opposite is true for marine engines. These engines are run most often at sea level, warm temperatures, and high humidity. Or a waste gated turbo engine that is pretty much impervious to even large barometric pressure changes. Thus the one size fits all SAE approach does not work well.
The debate over the validity of correction factors still lingers on, but they are the only way to make realistic comparison of your engines on different days. There are, and always will be, unscrupulous competitors who advertise inflated horsepower gains by manipulating the correction factors, however they are eventually exposed at the races where it counts to the customer. In order to perform accurate and credible results you must use some factors and try to conduct your tests under “similar” test conditions. In fact, SAE requires that the corrections be less than ± 7%. So in the example above we would not be allowed to use the STD or standard J607 SAE factor of 1.1005 because it is correcting by more than 10%, however the SAE J1349 factor of 1.0634 could just barely be used.
Now that the importance of these correction factors is known they must be entered accurately for your test be to considered valid. Although the formulas look complicated you don’t really have to know them, because any dynoing software worth using will do it for you based on the three environmental variables of temperature, humidity, and absolute barometric pressure. Note that you must enter the absolute barometric pressure NOT the relative pressure based on altitude, this can also be a source of confusion. Unless you are at sea level the barometric pressure that the weatherman states has been altitude corrected and you must use the actual pressure. Once again, most dynoing software will be able to do the conversion for you. Also be sure to enter these values at the beginning of the test after the dyno cell has come up to a stable temperature. Failure to do this will show lower horsepower than your engine actually made. Once again you should consider finding a dyno that will automatically enter these values for you, because many times you will forget to write them down and that will invalidate the dyno pull that you just made and could even lead you to discounting a modification that did actually increase the power of you engine. Also, for advanced software that use more realistic mechanical efficiency you must enter the required information about the engine, such as bore, stroke, number of piston, type of engine, etc.
It is also important that you use the same correction method for all testing and that your customer is shown the correction method used to calculate the horsepower. The customer may not understand all that went into the horsepower reading, but at least you will know that service was provided correctly and honestly. When considering a dyno you should research how the companies allow you to do your corrections. It may not be important now to be able to enter custom correct factor or even enter any at all, but it most likely will be later on down the road.

rtk posted 01-08-2007 07:47 PM ET (US)     Profile for rtk  Send Email to rtk     
Thanks much, I appreciate the information.

Rich

jimh posted 01-10-2007 12:11 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Assume you are the head of outboard motors for a major outboard manufacturer. Your engineering staff has conducted extensive testing of a new outboard motor. All the dynamometer testing shows the engine has exactly 212 horsepower according to the"standard" test measurement. You have the final say on what horsepower goes on the engine cowling.

What does the decal say?

rtk posted 01-10-2007 10:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for rtk  Send Email to rtk     
Great question Jim.

Using the 10% "rule", you can call it a 233.2 horsepower (max)or a 190.8 horsepower (min).

Since it is 212 "true" horsepower, I would sticker and market it as a 210 horsepower engine.

The 212 horsepower is basically in the middle of the commonly marketed 200 and 225 horsepower models, so you could call it either and still be in the 10% range of rated horsepower.

If I had to stick to either a 200 or 225 horsepower sticker, I would call it a 200.

I'd rather be accused of selling an engine as a strong 200 than a weak 225, especially if the competition all markets a 225 horsepower engine that actual produces 225+ horsepower.

I think the buying public appreciates getting more than less of something that is advertised.

In my opinion, the 10% margin is just to broad.

Rich

XStech posted 01-10-2007 07:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for XStech  Send Email to XStech     
Company A would put it out as a 225.

Company C would work on it a little more, get 10 more HP, and call it a 200.

Company B would make it 2 models, a 200 HO and a 225 fishin motor.

BOB KEMMLER JR posted 01-10-2007 07:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for BOB KEMMLER JR    
I bet i know who company c is ;o)
andygere posted 01-10-2007 07:56 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
Keep in mind the nameplate maximum power ratings on production boats tend to be rounded to nearest 10 horsepower. Rating the motor at 212 h.p. may keep it off the transom of a larege number of boats with a maximum horsepower rating of 200.
contender posted 01-10-2007 09:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for contender  Send Email to contender     
They do the same for measuring cubic inches in/on engines (auto) sizes also. If you measure the stroke, diameter, times the cylinders the cubic inches stated are always different then the actual cubic inches...good luck
jimh posted 01-10-2007 11:31 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
If you follow the ICOMIA standard, the actual peak measured horsepower should not be any more than 6-percent higher than the rated horsepower. This would imply the proper rating is a 200-HP motor.

I don't see anywhere that allows you to pick a rated horsepower that is MORE than the actual.

The most likely rating would be as a 200-HP motor. Motors made in production would have to produce within 10-percent of this, so the motors coming off the line could fall into a range of 180- to 220-HP and still be consistent with a rating of 200-HP.

rtk posted 01-11-2007 03:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for rtk  Send Email to rtk     
So what you are saying Jim, if I may, is an engine marketed/stickered as a 200 horsepower it will need to test out at a minimum of 200 horsepower at the midpoint of it's operating range recommended for propeller selection at some point in time, likely before the engine goes to production to be distributed and marketed to the general public, since the 6% factor is not a +/- factor in the standards. The horsepower of that engine should not exceed 212 horsepower when engine speed is at the very top end of it's operating range recommended for propeller selection.

Then as the engines come off the production line, already named a 200 horsepower engine by the manufacturer, under the standard there is an allowable variation in actual horsepower produced by the engines of +/-10% due to manufacturing differences, or variations in the production process.

Basically, the +/- 10% range is for prospective application to a "stickered" horsepower, and is not to be used to calculate a range above and below a known value for "stickering" purposes (to calculate a broad value range to name an engine).

Did I get that right?

Rich


Peter posted 01-11-2007 03:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Pertinent parts of ICOMIA standard:

3 Terminology and Declarations
3.1
Declared (rated) speed is a crankshaft speed, specified as follows:

3.1.1--In the case of ungoverned engines, the declared speed shall be the mid-point of the full throttle speed range recommended by the manufacturer for propeller selection.

Example: 5500 RPM for a full throttle speed range of 5000 to 6000 RPM.


3.2
Corrected power shall be the full throttle power of an engine or propulsion system measure in an engine dynamometer laboratory as specified in this standard and corrected to the standard reference conditions specified in ISO 3046/1 using the correction methods specified in ISO 3046/2.

3.3
Declared (rated) power of an engine model or propulsion system shall be the full throttle power at the declared (rated) speed at the final output shaft of the engine or propulsion system as offered for sale by the manufacturer, based on corrected power of one or more engines or propulsion systems.

3.3.1--Power shall be declared as Propeller Shaft Power at the propeller shaft of engines sold with complete propulsion units, and at the couple to the propeller shaft of engines sold with reduction or reversing gears.

6 Presentaton
6.1
A single value statement of power shall be accompanied by a statement of the corresponding speed. Alternatively power and speed may be represented as a power curve. Declarations shall indicate that the power is Crankshaft Power or Propeller Shaft Power, whichever is applicable.

Example: 225 HP at 5,500 RPM

6.2
It is recommended to choose the full throttle engine speed range mentioned in 3.1.1 in such a way that the highest power within this range does not exceed the declared power by more than 6%. If the highest power exceeds the declared power by more than 6%, both powers shall be stated for that model.


7 Manufacturing tolerance
The corrected power at rated speed of any individual marine propulsion engine or propulsion system must not deviate more than ±10% or 0.45kW, whichever is greater, from its declared power, except that for governed engines or systems of more than 100kW [134-HP] the tolerance shall be ±5%.

Comment: Note the difference between the use of the word "recommended" and the use of the word "shall". Section 6.2 is is a recommendation, not a requirment unlike other sections of the standard. This recommendation appears to help indicate just how broad banded the HP rating is. It seems to me that adhering to 6.2 would have the effect of forcing manufacturers of "peaky" engines of a stated HP to narrow their WOT throttle range if the peak is more than 6 percent higher than the baseline. It further seems to me that manufacturers are not adhering to this section.

At the end of the day, this actual or advertised HP is only relevant about 1 percent or less of the operating time of the outboard for most users. Consumers should really be focusing more of their attention on the power curve produced throughout the entire operating range by an outboard rather than the actual vs. advertised maximum HP in the narrower WOT band.

For my boating needs, I'd much rather have a 225+/-10% HP outboard that is capable of producing 150 HP at 3500 RPM than a 225+/-10% HP outboard that is only capable of producing 110 HP at 3500 RPM. While they are both 225 HP maximum outboards with the ICOMIA standards, they are very different engines from a driveability perspective.

rtk posted 01-11-2007 08:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for rtk  Send Email to rtk     
I agree with you Peter with regard to the practical analysis of horsepower in an engine. The horsepower(and torque)available at a specific point on an rpm range is much more relevant than the maximum horsepower produced at wide open throttle.

Very few of us (Boston Whaler owners) really are effected by an engine rated at 225 that actually only puts out say 205 at wide open throttle, at least I am not.

If that 225 that only puts out 205 at wide open throttle produces most of that horsepower at the lower, or midrange end of the rpm scale, it will perform very well for our boats.

Engine speed vs horsepower is not linear for all engine models, when comparing engines side by side. This is based on looking at automotive engine horsepower vs rpm graphs that are available.

The way I boat, having the available midrange (rpm)horsepower and torque (grunt, as I call it) is much more important to me. I "need" the grunt 20-35 mph, not 35-50. So 3000-4200 rpms is where it matters most to me, not 4000-5800 rpms with my Mercury 250 EFI.

I'd love to see torque and horsepower vs rpm curves available for outboard engines. That would certainly be more relevant to me when choosing an outboard engine for my applications. If midrange horsepower and torque is weak, and upper range (rpm) is strong, the engine does nothing for me for my use. Good for racing light hulls at high speed, where you will be running at the high/limit end of the rpm range.

But the topic is how a manufacturer determines the "sticker" horsepower of an engine. To me, the sticker says this engine will produce "x" horsepower. There is a price differential between a 200, 225 and 250.

If I can get brand "x" 200 that produces 220 horsepower, why should I pay more for the brand "y" 250 that only may produce 225 horsepower, when I can get a 200 for less money that in reality gives me the same "bang for the buck" as a 250?

In the absence of the actual test results of the individual engine tested under (ICOMIA) Standard 28-83, how do I know what I am getting as a TYPICALLY informed consumer?

I do wish there was a detached entity that would test these engines and publish rpm/horsepower/torque curves so we could choose an engine for our needs.

Rich

Post New Topic  Post Reply
Hop to:


Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.