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Author Topic:   Outrage 22 Yamaha 200 HPDI
MattInSanDiego posted 07-14-2007 02:30 AM ET (US)   Profile for MattInSanDiego   Send Email to MattInSanDiego  
[On a 1980 OUTRAGE 22 the author is] running a 2002 Yamaha 200-HPDI. The stainless steel prop that came with the boat was 22-inch pitch, and I could only get a maximum of 4,400-RPM. I know this is way too low. The motor is in the shop now getting a 100-hour service. [Seeks] suggestions on what prop to try when I get the boat back next week. Thanks, Matt
DeeVee posted 07-14-2007 10:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for DeeVee  Send Email to DeeVee     
Matt,

I have an Outrage 22 with a standard console and a t-top. A Suzuki 15 HP kicker rides on the transom next to a 200 HP Suzuki. Both are older carb 2 stroke engines.

The 200 turns a 19 pitch propellor. It has been a while since I have been at WOT, so my memory is not perfectly clear. I was able to get into the WOT operating range comfortably, in the low forty MPH range.

The propellor is a polished stainless steel with a brand name on it I am not familiar with- Sterndriver. Tacoma Propellor did some work on it for me not too long ago. The person at the counter said that he is familiar with that prop and indicated that it is a good wheel.

It seems to work OK, but I always wonder if I could be doing better, performance and economy wise. It will have to do the the forseeable future.

Doug
1989 Outrage 22

Sal DiMercurio posted 07-14-2007 10:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Both of the above rigs need 17p props with the engines up in the 2nd or 3rd set of holes.
That 22p prop will blow that engine up real quick like, so get rid of it asap.
A 17p should allow your engine to twist 5400 - 5500 rpms as long as you mount the engine up on the higher holes.
DeeVee, that 19p is to much for that rig.
Sal
DeeVee posted 07-14-2007 03:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for DeeVee  Send Email to DeeVee     
Sal,

If the engine reaches the specified operating range, which is 5000 to 5600 RPM (per the Suzuki shop manual), with this propeller, would the 19 pitch not be the correct propeller for the boat?

The prop is 14 x 19. The reduction ratio of the gear case is 1.857:1.

As I said earlier, I have not checked the WOT RPM lately, but have checked it since I bought the boat. As I remember, it was within the acceptable range.

I guess the prop could have been repitched at some point and not re-designated with the new pitch.

I am going salmon fishing in the morning, I will verify my previous results.

Doug

MattInSanDiego posted 07-14-2007 09:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for MattInSanDiego  Send Email to MattInSanDiego     
Thanks Guys. I'll try the 17p.
Sal DiMercurio posted 07-14-2007 11:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Doug, all you mention is the speed & if your engine is twisting 5600 rpms & the boat is only going 42 mph, something isn't jiving.
My guess is, your engine is only twisting 48 - 4900 rpms.
The gear ratio is just about the same as an OMC 200 hp.
If your engine was turning 5600 rpms with a 19p prop, through a 1.87 gear ratio, you should be very near, or into the 50 mph range, not the low 40s.
Personally I don't think that 200 hp suzuki is capeable of twisting a 19p to 5600 rpms on your rig.
If it is, it's slipping big time.
Sal
andygere posted 07-15-2007 03:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for andygere  Send Email to andygere     
I am very pleased with the performance of a 17p Mercury Offshore on my Outage 22 Cuddy. The motor is a 2007 E-TEC 200, 2.6 liter block, which is pretty similar to your HPDI. If you can get your hands on one of these, I'd give it a try. Very good holeshot, never ventilates and enough top end to keep me happy.
Tom W Clark posted 07-16-2007 10:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
I recommend trying a four blade Mercury Offshore/VenSura in the 19" pitch.

A 17" Mercury Mirage Plus would be worth a try as well as an 18" Yamaha Performance Series.

DeeVee posted 07-16-2007 01:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for DeeVee  Send Email to DeeVee     
Matt,

Sorry to interject some information that is not directly related to your situation.

My 200 Suzuki turned 5500 RPM at wide opent throttle yesterday. It was not a good day to record speed however, as a large tidal exchange was in progress and there was a pretty stiff varible 10-20 knot wind blowing all day.

With the large t-top, speed is affected quite a bit by wind.

Sal, how does one check for prop slip? It seems to bite OK to me, but I am not that experienced at prop selection and performance trouble shooting. The boat seems to perform OK to me as well.

Doug

MattInSanDiego posted 07-16-2007 02:57 PM ET (US)     Profile for MattInSanDiego  Send Email to MattInSanDiego     
Thanks Tom. I'm curious why you would recommend a four blade on this rig? My mechanic said that a four blade would lift the bow too much. He recommended a 17", stainless steel, three blade. Thanks, Matt
Tom W Clark posted 07-16-2007 03:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Doug,

You can use the Propeller Calculator to calculate propeller slip:
http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/propcalc.pl

If you are hitting 5500 RPM at only 42 MPH with your Suzuki 200 that suggests your 19" pitch propeller is suffering 20 percent propeller slip which is a lot.

5 to 15 percent is more normal but the reality is that if your boat is faster with more slip, then who cares?

I actually tend to agree with Sal that you do not have the right prop for your boat. I suspect you could do better. Next time you get a chance, pull your prop and find the part number or marking son it. If you have a photo I can probably tell you what it is.

Tom W Clark posted 07-16-2007 03:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Matt,

I did not recommend "a four blade prop." I recommended a very specific propeller that I have personal experience with that I think will work well in your situation. This particular propeller happens to be a four blade propeller.

Exactly what "17 inch, stainless steel, three blade." did your mechanic recommend? I am curious about that because there are a great many "17 inch, stainless steel, three blade" props out there and they are not all the same.

DeeVee posted 07-16-2007 04:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for DeeVee  Send Email to DeeVee     
Tom,

On the inside of the propeller is cast the following:

Sterndriver Mach

I will try to check into the part number soon.

Doug

MattInSanDiego posted 07-16-2007 04:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for MattInSanDiego  Send Email to MattInSanDiego     
Fair enough Tom. My mechanic was not more specific than that. I'm afraid he might recommend the 17" stainless steel prop he happens to have in stock, which might not be the best fit for my boat.

He did make a blanket statement that four blade props cause bow lift. I'm sure it is entirely possible that the prop you recommended does not cause bow lift. Shoot, I can't figure out why a four blade prop would cause bow lift in the first place! However, I do know that I want the best possible prop for my setup.

Thanks for your response,

Matt

Tom W Clark posted 07-16-2007 04:33 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Matt,

As a blanket statement, let me assure you that four blade props do not necessarily cause bow lift.

Plotman posted 07-16-2007 05:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Plotman  Send Email to Plotman     
It is the type of blade and amount of rake that determine whether a prop lifts bow, stern, etc., not how many blades you have.
MattInSanDiego posted 07-16-2007 06:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for MattInSanDiego  Send Email to MattInSanDiego     
That's interesting. I think I'm going to spend some time to figure out how the rake of a prop can cause bow lift.

I just spoke with my mechanic. He said that he would loan a 17" stainless steel prop to me to see how she runs. No pressure from him at all. Also, the motor has 337 hours and each cylendar has about 125 pounds compression. He changed all of the filters, spark plugs, and lower unit oil (no water). It ran sweet before I took it to the shop and I can't wait to get her out on the water again.

I'll let you know what the loaner prop is.

Matt

Tom W Clark posted 07-16-2007 07:21 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Bow lift is influenced by many things, blade rake and diameter among them. In theory the more blade rake the more the bow lift but even then it is not that simple. For example, the relatively small diameter Revolution 4 which has a lot of rake is a good stern lifting, four blade propeller. Go figure.


Tom W Clark posted 07-16-2007 07:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Matt,

The more props you can try the better. We can make some predictions based on similar boats that have tied out specific propellers, but general statements don't get you much in propping a boat. Testing does.

I look forward to hearing how the mechanic's propeller works out.

Tom W Clark posted 07-16-2007 07:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Doug,

The Mach Sterndriver is an older design by a manufacturer that is no longer in business. This model of propeller has a good reputation, though it looks sort of old fashioned with its non-swept round tipped blades.

So others know, the Mach Sterndriver is a four blade prop.

DeeVee posted 07-16-2007 11:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for DeeVee  Send Email to DeeVee     
Tom,

This Mach Sterndriver prop is a three blade prop. I guess it is even more old fashioned than you thought?

Doug

Tom W Clark posted 07-17-2007 12:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Doug,

I never even knew there was a three blae Mach Sterndriver!

DeeVee posted 07-17-2007 02:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for DeeVee  Send Email to DeeVee     
Tom,

I had never heard of Mach Sterndriver propellers, much less 4 blade or 3 blade Mach Sterndriver prppellers.

Doug

MattInSanDiego posted 08-03-2007 04:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for MattInSanDiego  Send Email to MattInSanDiego     
Update: I'm getting 5200 RPM and 43 MPH with a 17" Stiletto. There was 1' chop and probably a 5 MPH headwind. Two 200 pound guys in the boat and 1/3 tank of gas. I'm on the second set of holes (there is one set of empty holes above the current location). Think I should raise the motor one set of holes or two? Thanks!
Sal DiMercurio posted 08-03-2007 10:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Matt, a 17p Stiletto is really very close to a 19p prop.
Stiletto rates their pitch very conservative compared to other prop makers.
They usually mark their props about 2" less than what they really are, so remember that when dealing with Stiletto props.
I really don't think that is the right prop for your rig.
I suggested a 17p prop, but not a 17p Stiletto.
My suggestion is a 3 blade 15 pitch Stiletto, which is equal to most all other 17p s/s props
The 15p Stletto will also allow your engine to twist up 5600 rpms. [ where it needs to be ] & I have the feeling your going to gain about 5 - 6 mph for a 2" decline in pitch & an increase of 400 more rpms.
Thats just my thoughts, test the 15 first before buying.
By the way, are you trimming that engine out when your testing props?
If not, you gotta do it.
Sal
Sal DiMercurio posted 08-03-2007 10:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Sal DiMercurio  Send Email to Sal DiMercurio     
Matt, do you happen to know my buddy Jim Brown from SD.
He's retired now, but was in charge of all the lakes & reserviors in & around SD.
He also had his own radio program.
He is partners in a 22' grady white with Bruce Bocchi, ex manager for SD Padres & now nmanager for SF Giants.
Jim is a very good buddy of mine.
Sal
Tom W Clark posted 08-04-2007 10:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Matt,

If you getting 5200 RPM on a motor with a 5500 RPM redline, that is not bad at all. With the tenacious grip of the Stiletto, you could easily raise the motor a bolt hole or two which will gain you both RPM and speed.

I think the 17" pitch Stiletto will be a good prop for you. At 43 MPH that is about 5 percent slip which great. If you pretend the prop is a 19" pith, the slip calculates to about 14-15 percent which is not reasonable on this size boat/motor combination. I would argue that the 17" Stiletto (in this case) is performing like an 18" prop.

I want to point out that Stiletto does NOT simply under rate their propeller pitches. Indeed, shop measurement has confirmed that the pitch is correct. Something about the blade shape just seems to allow the blades to achieve greater grip than one would expect.

MattInSanDiego posted 08-04-2007 01:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for MattInSanDiego  Send Email to MattInSanDiego     
Hi Sal and Tom,

Thanks for your advice. I think I am going to raise the motor one or two sets of holes and see how she runs. I hope that will get me a few 100 RPM. The motor is trimmed up pretty far for my speed runs.

I think I'm also going to get the 15" Stiletto. I carry about 1000 pounds of gear when I go to Catalina, so I'll use the 15" for these trips. I can't tell you how happy I am with this motor and I really want it to last.

Sal, I have not had the pleasure of meeting Jim Brown.

Thanks,
Matt

MattInSanDiego posted 07-22-2015 12:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for MattInSanDiego  Send Email to MattInSanDiego     
Greetings. After almost eight years my Outrage 22 and 200 HP HPDI are still running strong. I loaned my boat to a friend and my 15" Stiletto came back with a ding. Another friend has 17" Mercury Mirage Plus, P/N 48-18278A46, that I can pick up for $200. I am still running one hole up and turn 5600 RPM with one person on the boat and half a tank of gas on the Stiletto. Is P/N 48-18278A46 a good fit for my Outrage 22? Thanks, Matt
Tom W Clark posted 07-24-2015 10:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
When going from a Stiletto Advantage to a MIRAGEplus you use the same pitch to maintain the same RPM. Using a 17" M+ will drop your engine speed at WOT by about 600 RPM

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