1995 Whaler 21 Outrage II Yamaha F250 - Moderated Discussion Areas

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Author Topic:   1995 Whaler 21 Outrage II Yamaha F250

dnh posted 08-20-2007 10:14 PM ET (US)
[Seeks] ideas for a the best propeller to use [on a Yamaha F250 on a 1995 Boston Whaler OUTRAGE 21].
rtk posted 08-21-2007 02:30 PM ET (US)
I have a 1997 21 Outrage with a 250 EFI Mercury. A 19-inch pitch Mirage Plus or a 17-inch pitch REVOLUTION4 both work well with my set up.
Max engine speed with the Mirage Plus is around 5,400-RPM, the REV4 around 5,600-RPM. Top speed is usually around 48-MPH. Both props run around the same top speed.
I get better fuel economy with the Mirage Plus, but the boat rides better and will plane at a lower speed with the REVOLUTION4.
What is the gear ratio and recommended RPM range for the F250? If you add that info it may be easier to make a comparison.
That is a sweet engine. I've been on two boats with Yamaha F250 motors and I was impressed by it.
Rich
dnh posted 08-21-2007 10:54 PM ET (US)
I just ran it for the first time tonight. Used the prop from the old Yamaha two-stroke 250, and the boat ran 49-MPH into a 15-knot wind with two adults and 30 gallons of fuel. It is 19 pitch. I don't know much about propellers and need to figure it all out. I was hoping for 55-MPH or so out of the engine but who knows.
rtk posted 08-21-2007 11:42 PM ET (US)
Check out the prop calculator in the reference section.
http://www.continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/propcalc.pl
If you plug your engines max rpms (6,000), the gear ratio (2:1), speed 55-MPH and 6-10% slip, the calculator estimates prop pitch at around 21.
Basically you would have to be able to turn a 21 pitch prop 6,000-RPM to get to 55-MPH according to the calculator.
The gear ratio on my engine is 1.75:1 so it is tough to compare the performance and propeller size between our two set ups.
My boat is loaded pretty heavily, too, with a big T-top hard top, enclosure, three batteries, kicker. Like pushing a brick, not very aerodynamic.
I have hit 50-MPH once. Light load of fuel and by myself. Nice cool day too.
How many RPM were you turning at 49-MPH and the 19 pitch prop? New engine?
Rich
jimh posted 08-22-2007 08:06 AM ET (US)
To assess the performance of the propeller you can calculate its SLIP factor at maximum boat speed. If the propeller is well matched to the boat and load, the SLIP at maximum boat speed will be 10-percent or less on a single engine outboard boat.
Tom W Clark posted 08-22-2007 09:25 AM ET (US)
Factory testing data I have indicates the mid 1990s Outrage 21 is capable of 51 MPH with a two stroke Yamaha 225 and a 19" aluminum prop. I would think an F250 would be able to do slightly better than that.
I recommend a 19" or 21" Mercury Mirage Plus or 21" or 23" Mercury VenSura/Offshore depending on what RPM you saw at WOT on your recent test run.
dnh posted 08-22-2007 10:29 AM ET (US)
I am trying to comprehend all of the information that you guys have put down below, but I am really bad at math / science (that's why I am a lawyer - just have to argue).
The engine is brand new F250 with now 4 hours on it. I have no Ttop or any of that and had two adults in the boat and no gear aside from life jackets, batteries, full cushions and the removable stern seat. The boat has trim tabs and the engine is mounted in the top hole (has low water pick up).
I only ran it last night and of course only ran it wide open VERY briefly due to the fact that I am under the 10 hour full break in period.
I will run it again with the 19' prop that came from the old 2 stroke and report the speed and RPMs back to you guys and see what you recommend.
Tom I appreciate your recommendations. Are the Mercury props going to be better performance wise than a Yamaha SSII prop? Or any less expensive?
I have noticed this engine has a TON of torque and really pushes the boat very easily.
I will usually operate the boat with realistically only 2 adults and 2 small children in it and the 15 bags of gear that my wife brings everywhere we go. So I dont need a prop designed to push 11 adults around for the most part.
Thanks for all your help. Will have it back in the water tomorrow or Friday and report numbers to get you guys' advice on how to make this work best.
Peter posted 08-22-2007 11:27 AM ET (US)
Using the propeller calculator and 8 percent slip, I calculate that the F250 is turning 5900 RPM at 49 MPH. 19 inch pitch is the correct pitch for that motor. The Yamaha 2-stroke 250s and the 4-stroke 250s usually turn the same pitch propeller on the same boat. That is because the 2-stroke powerhead only turned 5500 RPM at WOT and its output ran through a 1.81:1 ratio lower unit instead of a 2.0:1 ratio that is needed by the 4-stroke to make up for lower low end torque.
I'm guessing that the old propeller is either a Yamaha Saltwater Series (SWS) (would be polished stainless steel with a 19M stamped on the outside of the hub near the exhaust end) or a black painted stainless steel (paint would probably be worn off at least near the tips of the blades and would also be stamped with a 19M on the outside of the hub). Either propeller is a good match for the F250 on that Whaler and you won't do much better with any others.
What you really want in propeller for your boat is not one that will necessarily produce the highest top speed, but rather, one that will provide an efficient cruise because that is where you will spend the majority of your time when on-plane. The SWS an excellent cruising propeller and the black painted steel propellers are pretty good too.
I'd save your money and stick with what you have. When the weather cools off a bit and the humidity drops and you have fresh 89 octane in the tank you might see 50 MPH.
dnh posted 08-25-2007 07:56 AM ET (US)
I am going to report the RPMS today. However, regardless, I have been looking at the Yamaha performance bulletins and have some questions.
My boat weighs 2500lbs (hull only).
The F250 was tested with an Angler 230 which weighs 500 lbs more hull only. They added a Ttop, 2 people, fuel etc. and it ended up with 4,700lbs with the engine. I assume that is at least 1,000 lbs more than my 21 Outrage with no ttop, etc. and 2 people and no gear.
They ran a 15x21 Saltwater Series 2 and it was running 52mph at 5850 rpm. They have 5 seconds to plane. I am hitting 49mph. Will have to look at the RPM and time to plane for my boat.
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/products/otb/bulletins/ bulletin_4stroke_hpv6_sws2_ang-230vbx-f250txr.pdf
I would assume they F250 would turn the same RPM at least on my boat with the 15x21 and that perhaps I should consider trying it.
They tested Rhino with the same prop which is about the same weight as the Outrage and it hit pretty high numbers as well with much quicker plane.
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/products/otb/bulletins/ bulletin_4stroke_hpv6_sws2_rhn-2200sportsman-f250txr.pdf
They also tested a Polar 21 which is only a few hundred lbs. heavier with a 147/8x21 and it hit 53.3 with 3 seconds to plane.
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/products/otb/bulletins/ bulletin_4stroke_hpv6_sws_dys-polar2100cc-f250txrd.pdf
They also tested a Triton 232 with a Michigan Wheel 14 1/4x21 prop which hit 53.2 and 3 seconds to plane.
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/products/otb/bulletins/ bulletin_4stroke_hpv6_n-a_sht-triton232-f250txr.pdf
Back to my boat. The prop that is on there now has no paint or markings on it anymore. I don't know if it was once black or not but am fairly familiar with Yamaha props. I don't know it if is one or not.
Bottom line, based on the performance data above, I would assume I should consider trying the 15 by 21 or a similar size and pitch. The boat has more than enough get up and go at lower RPMs now and so I don't think the extra pitch would hurt me too much in terms of that any may provide more efficient cruising on plane, and higher top end, right?
What do you guys think?
rtk posted 08-25-2007 08:13 AM ET (US)
The best way to figure out which prop is best is just to try a couple sizes and designs. It's the only way to know how a particular prop will perform on your particular set up.
Also, I would let the engine break in for a while before using some of the data you collect. Temperature will definitely effect how your engine runs also. I have found in the middle of the summer when it is hot out I will lose a couple hundred rpms and fuel economy goes down.
The main things I look for when evaluating a prop is: it will turn in the proper rpm range wide open throttle, fuel economy at crusing speed, ride quality of the boat and traction- does the prop grip when I need it too.
I have a 19 pitch Mirage Plus you can test out if you like. You will need to buy the hub kit for the Yamaha, mine is a Merc set up. PM me if you want to try it.
Rich
Peter posted 08-25-2007 12:04 PM ET (US)
Snap a couple of pictures of the propeller and post a link. From the shape and appearance, we should be able to tell you what we think it is.
Peter posted 08-25-2007 12:06 PM ET (US)
I should have added to my last post that going to a higher pitch propeller will not necessarily add any more speed or efficiency but will work your motor harder than it is working now. Your motor is much better off running with less pitch at the high end of the operating range, like 5900 RPM than it is with greater pitch and a lower part of the operating range, like 5500 RPM.
dnh posted 08-25-2007 06:34 PM ET (US)
The motor is turning 6100rpm at 50mph today which is too high. Clearly it needs either a bigger prop or more pitch. What says?
Tom W Clark posted 08-25-2007 06:47 PM ET (US)
Nathan,
Did you determine what model of propeller you have?
6100 is only a little over the redline for an F250. There are lots of good props to try and really, unless you try them, you wonlt really know what works best for you.
19" and 21" Mercury Mirage Plus's would be worth a try as well as a 21" Laser II, 19" or 21" Stiletto Advantage II or Mercury's new Enertia. I have an older 14-1/4" x 20" Turbo that would probably be very fast on your boat.
Peter posted 08-25-2007 09:38 PM ET (US)
What kind of load (fuel, people, etc)? Into the wind or with?
dnh posted 08-25-2007 09:48 PM ET (US)
I don't know what kind of prop I have. Its a 19 something. I will have to take a pic and look closely tomorrow.
I don't think the wind makes much difference. It ran 49 into a 15knot wind the other day and 50 with a 5knot wind today.
I had two adults and a lot of gear and about 40 gallons of fuel each time.
Sounds like I need to try different props. Will have to get that dialed in.
Taking it back for the 10 hour tune up tomorrow and will kick around trying a different prop when I pick it back up in a few days...
Tom your suggestions are appreciated. Will talk to you about this further.
dnh posted 04-11-2008 07:09 AM ET (US)
I finally got a Mercury Enertia 13 5/8 x 21 on the Outrage 21. The boat ran 53.5mph yesterday on the GPS and showed 54 on the speedometer in a fairly substantial chop on ICW and with the stern seat and bimini top in the boat, one adult, approx. 35 gallons of gas and full gear. Acceleration seemed about the same as the old prop (which it turned out was a 14 1/4x19), but top end was much better. I would be scared to go much faster in the boat. Very happy with the prop. Boat turns 6000RPM WOT.

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Author	Topic: 1995 Whaler 21 Outrage II Yamaha F250
dnh	posted 08-20-2007 10:14 PM ET (US) [Seeks] ideas for a the best propeller to use [on a Yamaha F250 on a 1995 Boston Whaler OUTRAGE 21].
rtk	posted 08-21-2007 02:30 PM ET (US) I have a 1997 21 Outrage with a 250 EFI Mercury. A 19-inch pitch Mirage Plus or a 17-inch pitch REVOLUTION4 both work well with my set up. Max engine speed with the Mirage Plus is around 5,400-RPM, the REV4 around 5,600-RPM. Top speed is usually around 48-MPH. Both props run around the same top speed. I get better fuel economy with the Mirage Plus, but the boat rides better and will plane at a lower speed with the REVOLUTION4. What is the gear ratio and recommended RPM range for the F250? If you add that info it may be easier to make a comparison. That is a sweet engine. I've been on two boats with Yamaha F250 motors and I was impressed by it. Rich
dnh	posted 08-21-2007 10:54 PM ET (US) I just ran it for the first time tonight. Used the prop from the old Yamaha two-stroke 250, and the boat ran 49-MPH into a 15-knot wind with two adults and 30 gallons of fuel. It is 19 pitch. I don't know much about propellers and need to figure it all out. I was hoping for 55-MPH or so out of the engine but who knows.
rtk	posted 08-21-2007 11:42 PM ET (US) Check out the prop calculator in the reference section. http://www.continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/propcalc.pl If you plug your engines max rpms (6,000), the gear ratio (2:1), speed 55-MPH and 6-10% slip, the calculator estimates prop pitch at around 21. Basically you would have to be able to turn a 21 pitch prop 6,000-RPM to get to 55-MPH according to the calculator. The gear ratio on my engine is 1.75:1 so it is tough to compare the performance and propeller size between our two set ups. My boat is loaded pretty heavily, too, with a big T-top hard top, enclosure, three batteries, kicker. Like pushing a brick, not very aerodynamic. I have hit 50-MPH once. Light load of fuel and by myself. Nice cool day too. How many RPM were you turning at 49-MPH and the 19 pitch prop? New engine? Rich
jimh	posted 08-22-2007 08:06 AM ET (US) To assess the performance of the propeller you can calculate its SLIP factor at maximum boat speed. If the propeller is well matched to the boat and load, the SLIP at maximum boat speed will be 10-percent or less on a single engine outboard boat.
Tom W Clark	posted 08-22-2007 09:25 AM ET (US) Factory testing data I have indicates the mid 1990s Outrage 21 is capable of 51 MPH with a two stroke Yamaha 225 and a 19" aluminum prop. I would think an F250 would be able to do slightly better than that. I recommend a 19" or 21" Mercury Mirage Plus or 21" or 23" Mercury VenSura/Offshore depending on what RPM you saw at WOT on your recent test run.
dnh	posted 08-22-2007 10:29 AM ET (US) I am trying to comprehend all of the information that you guys have put down below, but I am really bad at math / science (that's why I am a lawyer - just have to argue). The engine is brand new F250 with now 4 hours on it. I have no Ttop or any of that and had two adults in the boat and no gear aside from life jackets, batteries, full cushions and the removable stern seat. The boat has trim tabs and the engine is mounted in the top hole (has low water pick up). I only ran it last night and of course only ran it wide open VERY briefly due to the fact that I am under the 10 hour full break in period. I will run it again with the 19' prop that came from the old 2 stroke and report the speed and RPMs back to you guys and see what you recommend. Tom I appreciate your recommendations. Are the Mercury props going to be better performance wise than a Yamaha SSII prop? Or any less expensive? I have noticed this engine has a TON of torque and really pushes the boat very easily. I will usually operate the boat with realistically only 2 adults and 2 small children in it and the 15 bags of gear that my wife brings everywhere we go. So I dont need a prop designed to push 11 adults around for the most part. Thanks for all your help. Will have it back in the water tomorrow or Friday and report numbers to get you guys' advice on how to make this work best.
Peter	posted 08-22-2007 11:27 AM ET (US) Using the propeller calculator and 8 percent slip, I calculate that the F250 is turning 5900 RPM at 49 MPH. 19 inch pitch is the correct pitch for that motor. The Yamaha 2-stroke 250s and the 4-stroke 250s usually turn the same pitch propeller on the same boat. That is because the 2-stroke powerhead only turned 5500 RPM at WOT and its output ran through a 1.81:1 ratio lower unit instead of a 2.0:1 ratio that is needed by the 4-stroke to make up for lower low end torque. I'm guessing that the old propeller is either a Yamaha Saltwater Series (SWS) (would be polished stainless steel with a 19M stamped on the outside of the hub near the exhaust end) or a black painted stainless steel (paint would probably be worn off at least near the tips of the blades and would also be stamped with a 19M on the outside of the hub). Either propeller is a good match for the F250 on that Whaler and you won't do much better with any others. What you really want in propeller for your boat is not one that will necessarily produce the highest top speed, but rather, one that will provide an efficient cruise because that is where you will spend the majority of your time when on-plane. The SWS an excellent cruising propeller and the black painted steel propellers are pretty good too. I'd save your money and stick with what you have. When the weather cools off a bit and the humidity drops and you have fresh 89 octane in the tank you might see 50 MPH.
dnh	posted 08-25-2007 07:56 AM ET (US) I am going to report the RPMS today. However, regardless, I have been looking at the Yamaha performance bulletins and have some questions. My boat weighs 2500lbs (hull only). The F250 was tested with an Angler 230 which weighs 500 lbs more hull only. They added a Ttop, 2 people, fuel etc. and it ended up with 4,700lbs with the engine. I assume that is at least 1,000 lbs more than my 21 Outrage with no ttop, etc. and 2 people and no gear. They ran a 15x21 Saltwater Series 2 and it was running 52mph at 5850 rpm. They have 5 seconds to plane. I am hitting 49mph. Will have to look at the RPM and time to plane for my boat. http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/products/otb/bulletins/ bulletin_4stroke_hpv6_sws2_ang-230vbx-f250txr.pdf I would assume they F250 would turn the same RPM at least on my boat with the 15x21 and that perhaps I should consider trying it. They tested Rhino with the same prop which is about the same weight as the Outrage and it hit pretty high numbers as well with much quicker plane. http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/products/otb/bulletins/ bulletin_4stroke_hpv6_sws2_rhn-2200sportsman-f250txr.pdf They also tested a Polar 21 which is only a few hundred lbs. heavier with a 147/8x21 and it hit 53.3 with 3 seconds to plane. http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/products/otb/bulletins/ bulletin_4stroke_hpv6_sws_dys-polar2100cc-f250txrd.pdf They also tested a Triton 232 with a Michigan Wheel 14 1/4x21 prop which hit 53.2 and 3 seconds to plane. http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/products/otb/bulletins/ bulletin_4stroke_hpv6_n-a_sht-triton232-f250txr.pdf Back to my boat. The prop that is on there now has no paint or markings on it anymore. I don't know if it was once black or not but am fairly familiar with Yamaha props. I don't know it if is one or not. Bottom line, based on the performance data above, I would assume I should consider trying the 15 by 21 or a similar size and pitch. The boat has more than enough get up and go at lower RPMs now and so I don't think the extra pitch would hurt me too much in terms of that any may provide more efficient cruising on plane, and higher top end, right? What do you guys think?
rtk	posted 08-25-2007 08:13 AM ET (US) The best way to figure out which prop is best is just to try a couple sizes and designs. It's the only way to know how a particular prop will perform on your particular set up. Also, I would let the engine break in for a while before using some of the data you collect. Temperature will definitely effect how your engine runs also. I have found in the middle of the summer when it is hot out I will lose a couple hundred rpms and fuel economy goes down. The main things I look for when evaluating a prop is: it will turn in the proper rpm range wide open throttle, fuel economy at crusing speed, ride quality of the boat and traction- does the prop grip when I need it too. I have a 19 pitch Mirage Plus you can test out if you like. You will need to buy the hub kit for the Yamaha, mine is a Merc set up. PM me if you want to try it. Rich
Peter	posted 08-25-2007 12:04 PM ET (US) Snap a couple of pictures of the propeller and post a link. From the shape and appearance, we should be able to tell you what we think it is.
Peter	posted 08-25-2007 12:06 PM ET (US) I should have added to my last post that going to a higher pitch propeller will not necessarily add any more speed or efficiency but will work your motor harder than it is working now. Your motor is much better off running with less pitch at the high end of the operating range, like 5900 RPM than it is with greater pitch and a lower part of the operating range, like 5500 RPM.
dnh	posted 08-25-2007 06:34 PM ET (US) The motor is turning 6100rpm at 50mph today which is too high. Clearly it needs either a bigger prop or more pitch. What says?
Tom W Clark	posted 08-25-2007 06:47 PM ET (US) Nathan, Did you determine what model of propeller you have? 6100 is only a little over the redline for an F250. There are lots of good props to try and really, unless you try them, you wonlt really know what works best for you. 19" and 21" Mercury Mirage Plus's would be worth a try as well as a 21" Laser II, 19" or 21" Stiletto Advantage II or Mercury's new Enertia. I have an older 14-1/4" x 20" Turbo that would probably be very fast on your boat.
Peter	posted 08-25-2007 09:38 PM ET (US) What kind of load (fuel, people, etc)? Into the wind or with?
dnh	posted 08-25-2007 09:48 PM ET (US) I don't know what kind of prop I have. Its a 19 something. I will have to take a pic and look closely tomorrow. I don't think the wind makes much difference. It ran 49 into a 15knot wind the other day and 50 with a 5knot wind today. I had two adults and a lot of gear and about 40 gallons of fuel each time. Sounds like I need to try different props. Will have to get that dialed in. Taking it back for the 10 hour tune up tomorrow and will kick around trying a different prop when I pick it back up in a few days... Tom your suggestions are appreciated. Will talk to you about this further.
dnh	posted 04-11-2008 07:09 AM ET (US) I finally got a Mercury Enertia 13 5/8 x 21 on the Outrage 21. The boat ran 53.5mph yesterday on the GPS and showed 54 on the speedometer in a fairly substantial chop on ICW and with the stern seat and bimini top in the boat, one adult, approx. 35 gallons of gas and full gear. Acceleration seemed about the same as the old prop (which it turned out was a 14 1/4x19), but top end was much better. I would be scared to go much faster in the boat. Very happy with the prop. Boat turns 6000RPM WOT.