Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
1985 Outrage 18: 175 or 200 E-TEC?
|Author||Topic: 1985 Outrage 18: 175 or 200 E-TEC?|
posted 09-25-2008 01:07 PM ET (US)
Hello all and thanks for an AMAZING website!! This is my first post.
I am the original owner of a PRISTINE 1985 Outrage 18. Boat was fully restored in 2004 and we have been running an '04 Yamaha 150 HPDI 2-stroke with a top-speed of 47 MPH on GPS.
The Yamaha has been 100% FLAWLESS from day one but.....well; you know how it goes....:)
Top speed is my main priority on this hull.
The 150, 175, and 200 E-Tecs all weigh the same 433 lbs, just a few pounds more than the current Yamaha 150 I have now. So I can't see the 200HP's 433lb weight being an issue.
I saw an Outrage 20 on this site that was turning 60 MPH with an older Evinrude 200hp. My boat weighs about 700lbs LESS.
I am hoping for AT LEAST 60 MPH. If a 2,000 lb hull with an older Evinrude 200 is turning 60 MPH, I am confident my 1250-lb 18-footer will do better than 60+ with an E-TEC 200hp bolted-on the transom ;)
I am about to pull the trigger on a 2009 25-inch 200hp E-TEC weighing 433 lbs.
Do you think the 200 is a bad idea? Over-powered? Should I stick with the 175?
I am very interested in hearing your opinions on weight, speed, jack-plates, trim tabs(?), prop recommendations, etc.
I have 2 other classic whalers (1985 Montauk 17/1979 Sport 13) and 3 classic Donzis (16,18,22) also on the dock, but this boat is my pride and joy!! It needs to be FAST.
Thanking you all in advance!! I look forward to your comments and insight.
posted 09-25-2008 01:08 PM ET (US)
posted 09-25-2008 01:17 PM ET (US)
First, I call B.S. on the 20' Outrage running 60 MPH with a 200 HP.
Second, your hull does NOT weigh 1250 lbs...it probably weighs more like 1500-1600 lbs.
You can probably expect 55 MPH; with the right prop you'll probably see more like 57...but it would be a nice project and I'd love it if you proved me wrong!
My 18' Outrage with twin 90's hasn't seen 55 except on the highway...
posted 09-25-2008 01:17 PM ET (US)
posted 09-25-2008 01:19 PM ET (US)
Where are you in the UP?
We spend a lot of time up there in the summer.
We're having a fall rendezvous October 4th at Mullet Lake - just 1/2 hour across the bridge in the lower peninsula - you are welcome to attend (see the trips and rendezvous section).
posted 09-25-2008 01:20 PM ET (US)
Sal's 20 is a rare bird and he is an ex drag boat racer so he knows how to set it up. His boat is also not the deep V model you are thinking of and is much lighter and efficient than the v20. There are plenty on here who run 175's and 200's on an 18 and they barely break the 50 mark, 60 is a dream in my opinion. Your 18 is also heavier than the stated 1250lbs but that is another conversation/debate/etc. I would try enhancing your boats performance as-is via the right prop and jackplate and you will probably break 50 if you know how to dial it in.
posted 09-25-2008 01:40 PM ET (US)
By swapping out the HPDI for the E-TEc, you'll be taking about 40 lbs off the transom. The 25 inch 2.6L V6 HPDIs weigh about 475 lbs so they are HEAVIER than the 2.6L V6 E-TECS by about 40 lbs, not LIGHTER.
If your boat currently goes 47 MPH with the 150, it will not get anywhere near 60 MPH with a 200. This forecast is based on the following formula:
((New HP/Old HP 150)^ 1/2) x Actual Old Speed = Predicted New Speed
Plugging in we get
((200/150) ^ 1/2) x 47 MPH = 54.2 MPH.
posted 09-25-2008 01:59 PM ET (US)
Dave (Buckda) :
Thanks for fixing my link! and the nice comments.
The figures on Sal's boat I found on this site-- so who knows?...sounded a little fast to me also.
The 1250 weight figure I also got from this site, and I have no idea.
We are in the Les Cheneaux Islands area, but live in California off-season. Thanks for the invite I am sorry to miss it!!
55MPH would be a DREAM, I would be THRILLED!!
thank you, sir!
posted 09-25-2008 02:01 PM ET (US)
yes it was Sal's boat I was referring to. I have zero experience in setting up jack-plates/props, etc.
thats why I am here!!
Thanks.....ANYTHING over 50 would be a gift!
posted 09-25-2008 02:03 PM ET (US)
can anyone help with a jack-plate and prop recommendation?
I have never used a jack-plate...
posted 09-25-2008 02:25 PM ET (US)
Start a new thread asking that question and you will get tons of help. It is a $500 try and I think you will be pleased that you did not spend $14k on a new engine. A fixed single screw jackplate is $250 or less and a new SS prop from Tom Clark is about the same so I would give it whirl and I bet you see over 50, especially if you remove the stern seat.
posted 09-25-2008 03:41 PM ET (US)
I grew up spending my summers on Hill Island - so I know the area very well. We still have friends who own on Snows Channel and I spend a few weekends up there each summer to this day.
We'll be up there next summer over the 4th and the following week with extended family. We no longer own property, but will be renting in Hessel.
Let me know if you plan to be up there around that time and I'll buy you a beer!
I recommend a Rite-Hite manual jackplate - www.rmind.com . It can be adjusted on the water for height and speed testing. I have my E-TEC's mounted to two of these and love them.
For details of the installation, see:
|L H G||
posted 09-25-2008 06:02 PM ET (US)
If you want to go over 60 in an 18 Outrage, you need this:
You might also want to review this article:
Secondly, I know someone with a Yamaha 150 HPDI and he gets a solid 50 on an equally mint 18 Outrage like yours. So you might want to first be sure your engine is mounted up 1 - 1/2" (third set of holes out of five) and running a fast prop like a Merc Laser II or Tempest Plus.
Thirdly, if you really want to go fast, you want to go BLACK. HP for HP, there isn't an E-tec made that will run with an Optimax or Merc EFI, or get better fuel economy. Merc makes a lightweight 2.5 liter 175 ProXS Optimax (close to a 200 HP engine) that will easily run with the small bore Evinrude 200, or better. They cost about $11,700. If you want a really strong 200, get the plain old vanilla 200 Opti, but it's a big 3.0 liter block and FAST, and lighter in weight than the big bore Evinrude HO's.
My choice for what you want to do: The Mercury 175 Optimax Pro XS. Speed and great fuel economy 2nd to none. (or make me an offer I can't refuse on the twin Merc 115 "towers"!)
posted 09-25-2008 06:12 PM ET (US)
Now I know why I recognized that photo. Your boat is exiting or traversing the mouth of Wilderness Bay near Long Island.
I almost bought some property in that bay a few years back....
posted 09-25-2008 06:13 PM ET (US)
posted 09-26-2008 12:54 PM ET (US)
PS...most dealers will NOT overpower a boat which may cause a lot of complications for you. They also require a dealer to "sign off" on your installation(for warranty purposes) if you do it yourself...if you will find a dealer to sell you an engine in the crate.
posted 09-27-2008 11:39 AM ET (US)
Ultra-- First of all, I think the 200hp E-TEC is a good choice
however, it would not get you to 60mph but should get you eaisely over 50mph.
NEXT-- You should know that LHG(Larry) has absolutely no real proof about his speed or fuel predictions with the Mercury engines (only his opinions, NOT FACTS) You also have to ask yourself why he is selling his engines! His story is still the same as he still tries to sell you the Mercs and bash the E-TECs.
posted 09-27-2008 01:14 PM ET (US)
I think 60 is a slight possibility with a 200 on a 18.
Do the 200, you will get the 175 and regret it later on, and I am also believe the simple fact that some people just "WANT" the higher HP motor even when a lower one will do the job.
On a larger 21 I have seen 60 with a 250etec, thats with 2 people and at least 55 gallons of fuel, hits 59-60 like its on cruise control. We are thinking of a pad on the boat this winter, and adding stringers and bulkheads- might get intereting to see if we can be closer to 65-68
|L H G||
posted 09-29-2008 04:07 PM ET (US)
Fourdfish - Sometimes you post like an E-DIOT.
posted 09-30-2008 11:04 AM ET (US)
LHG(Larry)--Look who is talking. The truth hurts doesn't it!
posted 09-30-2008 11:10 AM ET (US)
RM NY...your 21 is actually lighter than his 18 as far as most are concerned and has a flatter V so I still doubt a 200 will fetch 60...closer to 55.
With a pristine 2004 HPDI why would one want to spend that kind of money for say 5mph and have the overpowered "hassles" and liability? If it is really burning a hole in your pocket that bad..go for it but don't forget to tell your insurance company, IF you can find a dealer to sell you an engine and/or rig it.
posted 09-30-2008 11:43 AM ET (US)
UltraMagnetic, if I were to overpower a boat I would make sure my insurance company knows about it and I would make sure my insurance company is insuring me.
It sounds like your primary goal is to make your Outrage 18 go fast. If you "illegally" overpower it and get into a boating accident make sure your insurance company will spend millions to try and defend you.
The party pooper,
posted 09-30-2008 11:44 AM ET (US)
I agree with Nick's recommendation to add a jack plate first and see if you aren't happy with the performance improvements. For $300, it is a good investment, and you can probably see a 3 MPH improvement in speed. I also agree that with a new motor, you're going to take a bath if you buy another new motor right away - that Yamaha will probably last 15-20 years in the short season, freshwater environment of the Les Cheneaux Islands.
Jack that puppy up about 3 inches on a 10 inch setback and let her rip!
posted 09-30-2008 12:13 PM ET (US)
Go 5+ with a 10" setback ;)
|L H G||
posted 09-30-2008 02:40 PM ET (US)
I know of no outboard engine, except a full bore racing rig with special low water pickups and racing props, where an outboard can be run with the anti-ventilation plate five inches above the WATER FLOW past the lower unit. 1-1/2 to 2" inches is about the maximum recommended on recreational boats. Speed will not increase as you go higher than that, and most props will not hold on acceleration and plane-off. Don't even think about 2" unless you are running over 60 mph. Before raising an engine, the top height of the water intakes should be determined so that the top slot does not suck in air and overheat your engine.
posted 09-30-2008 03:35 PM ET (US)
Right over the top! They sucked you in Larry! I guess you could not figure that they were just kidding!
posted 09-30-2008 03:39 PM ET (US)
Better yet, set the maximum height by getting get a water pressure gauge and making sure that the water pressure is 25 PSI at 5500 RPM.
posted 09-30-2008 06:50 PM ET (US)
I would actually agree that to ditch a perfectly good running 150 in a effort to gain a few MPH out of a boat thats only going to go SO fast is a waste of money.
I wish I had that kind of money to waste, more importantly I wish the economy as a whole had that kind of money to waste!
By the way our boat which is clearly "over powered" is fully insured with replacement value of $70k with the insurance company knowing full well that the boat has a 250 on it, and the local police and coast guard often hang out at the house and pull along side the boat to chat it up about the boat and things in general, so far no handcuffs have come out yet.
If they were going to lock people up locally for over powered boats they would sure keep themselves busy as plenty of 21 and 22s have 300hp motors hanging off the back of them doing 90+ mph.
Can someone point out the paragraph in the coast guard regulations that specify "over powering" a boat?
posted 09-30-2008 07:32 PM ET (US)
No such paragraph!
posted 09-30-2008 08:28 PM ET (US)
Thanks ALL for the replies!!
Dave: yes thats wilderness...funny thing they JUST replaced that block-house you see in the pic...i watched them working it all last week.
i heard they got a grant for it from the state...(?)
but GOOD EYE!!
dealer is also a good friend and he said i gotta sign some release---who cares!?!? insurance will be notified.
the motor will be custom-painted (with a 150 decal as well;)....and I am good friends with the sheriff and local coasties......they tend to not hassle me.
like i said the YAMI has been FLAWLESS--i mean NOT A HICCUP--but it has about the worst controls ever put on a boat...(if you have driven one--you know what i mean)
I am flirting with a motorized jack-plate (40 lbs).....from the bass-boat crowd:
click here to see it: http://www.bobsmachine.com/
what a cool place!!
posted 10-01-2008 11:05 AM ET (US)
Go with a jackplate of sme sorts and get a water pressure gauge.
Larry where did you get that info? My 115 is jacked up 4+" on a 6" setback and it runs like normal. My 70 was up 4.5". Len is up like 8" when fully lifted on his 90. Clark Roberts put a 15" shaft on a 20" transom using a 10" setback so it would work. Yes 5" on a 10" setback is NOT extreme. No I was not kidding.
posted 10-01-2008 11:30 AM ET (US)
I think that your boat will be a rocket with the 200 HP E-TEC. You may also want to consider adding trim-tabs to help stabilize the boat at the top speeds. I would imagine you'll get some listing due to the torque.
Congratulations early - we'd love to see and read about the results once you get it installed and begin propeller testing. I won't race you to Mackinac though - as I think you may approach 60 MPH with the motor jacked and when you get it dialed in. I recommend very calm water when opening her up.
posted 10-01-2008 03:27 PM ET (US)
what does a water pressure gauge do?
excuse the ignorance -im here to learn :)
I have them on all the donzis but i dont know exactly what they do.....
I will call bobs machine shop and find out about their jack-plates...i know the off-set is not much maybe 4 inches....what i like is the motorized lift!!
posted 10-01-2008 03:31 PM ET (US)
Shows your water pressure. If you jack it too high you can lose water pressure and overheat the engine. This is a must have gauge if running a hydraulic lift.
posted 10-01-2008 04:20 PM ET (US)
Like Nick says - the water pressure gauge does exactly that: it tells you what the water pressure is in the cooling system for your motor. The manual will have a specified range for your motor at different operating RPM's...but when you jack a motor up too high, it "aspirates" air with the water and the water pressure drops - resulting in reduced capacity to cool the powerhead...and on the E-TEC, the critical electrical components of the motor as well. Everything on a marine engine is cooled by "raw water"...not coolant, like in an auto.
Certain motors have re-designed gearcases for special applications such as very high jackplate installations. Those gearcases are designed with the water intake grates in a lower position on the gearcase so that you can run the engine much higher (inches higher) and still have a "clean" stream of cooling water being inducted into the engine cooling system. In some situations, the gearcase and propeller are literally about half way out of the water, and teh prop (known as a surface-piercing prop) is actually cleaving the water and air boundary (this for super high-speed applications).
On a Whaler, generally, you will find a high performance prop on a fast rig such as yours where the design allows the prop to be effective in "shallower" water - i.e. a higher gearcase installation/application.
In very broad terms and experiences, SS Props have a higher tolerance for running shallow than do aluminum props - but even so, it has more to do with the design than the material.
When you're testing propellers once you get the new E-TEC installed, you will want to experiment with a variety of props at a variety of height settings. In that process, a water pressure gauge will be very helpful in determining just "how high" you can safely go - although I suspect that you will see a reduced overall performance when you approach an "unsafe" height as it applies to cooling capabilities.
Generally speaking, the recommendations here have been to mount the motor so that the flat anti-ventilation plate on the motor, when trimmed normally, is about 2-5 inches ABOVE the bottom of the transom - if you extended a plane from the keel at the transom back the distance to being directly under the motor, you want that plate to be above that plane.
Exactly how high above the plane will be best determined by testing and will vary with what prop you're running.
Your best bet is to sit down with the dealer, and get him to give you a week with several different props...and then you get an Internet connection, talk with Tom W. Clark here and play out on the water. Report back your results and we'll help you dial her in for optimal performance.
posted 10-01-2008 04:44 PM ET (US)
Once the engines starts to suck air, the reading on the water pressure gauge is questionable
posted 10-01-2008 04:46 PM ET (US)
thanks so much guys!!
today i ordered the 200 and a 115 for my 1985 montauk 17......should be peas in a pod!
I have a ton of great shots of my boats.....cant seem to make the photbucket links "work"
leave your email or email me firstname.lastname@example.org
thanks again ALL!!
posted 10-01-2008 04:47 PM ET (US)
what are you guys recommending for trim tabs??
i HATE them on my donzis and formula...probably because I am not using them correctly :(
what would you guys suggest for this hull?
|Tom W Clark||
posted 10-01-2008 05:00 PM ET (US)
An Outrage 18 with an E-TEC 200 will not need trim tabs unless you want to correct for a list while running without shifting weight around.
Link help is here:
posted 10-01-2008 05:06 PM ET (US)
i do not want trim tabs!!.....
thanks TOM i will try to figure out the link situation!!
I have 4 whalers on the dock 3 are classic and I think members would enjoy seeing them.
posted 10-01-2008 05:44 PM ET (US)
I respectfully disagree with Tom on the tabs, but it makes no difference - if you hate 'em, then don't put them on.
...but in that case, I WILL race you to Mackinac Island and back...on a standard day for lake Huron and the Straights.
My e-mail address is visible by clicking on the e-mail icon in the blue field next to my username.
I choose not to post it directly to the page due to the likelihood that it will then be picked up by a program crawling the 'Net and increase the spam load...I have enough offers for herbal Viagra as it is.
I'd love to see the pictures of the new blockhouse...did they also replace the one that is on Cube point on Marquette? It's hidden in the trees a bit...I don't know if the Brown family maintains that or not...it's on their property...and appears in better condition than the one on Long Island.
A friend of mine just repowered his 17' Montauk with a 115 E-TEC this spring and loves it. He and I spent a week on Lake Nipigon in Canada this spring and the 115 performed extremely well on a very loaded boat. He's happy. I've driven it - it's like driving a Lotus - 4 cylinders, very pleasing sound and she rides on rails.
But the sound doesn't compare to the twin howling of my 90's at WOT.
posted 10-01-2008 06:27 PM ET (US)
FUNNY YOU SHOULD ASK!!!
I was at the Brown cottage last week...block house is there but still hidden in trees......really cool!!
it has GUN TURRETS!! yes im serious!
I will PASS on the tabs.....i hate 'em!!
good to hear about the 115...i ordered that today as well.
what kind of speed is he seeing on the 17 montauk w 115 etec?
posted 10-01-2008 06:58 PM ET (US)
He's only seeing mid-upper 40's ...but with a standard aluminum prop and a "less than ideal" mounting scheme that was necessitated by the previous installation and the condition of the transom.
Where the boat really shines is "oomph" that will put the passengers on their arse in a heartbeat throughout the entire powerband - at any speed. It's really pretty incredible.
It might really scare some old guys at the golf course dock if you come screaming by Club Point with that puppy wide open....prepare to use the AED's...
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.
Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000