posted 05-18-2009 02:00 PM ET (US)        

My evinrude dealer tells me the original FICHT oil is not what they call the XD50 - not the SD100 which is more for the E-Tec outboards. Both outboards are obviously DFI two cycles -but apparently use different oils.

He tells me that when an E-Tec comes in they need to tell the onboard compute which of the two oils the owner will use because it will use 40% less if they tell it to use the XD100.

Apperenly this all matters. What I don't know is if Amsoil HP Injecter Oil is more like the XD50 or is better or worse.

All I want to do is use the best oil available. I have to believe you guys have an opinion.

posted 05-18-2009 02:12 PM ET (US)            

So, let me be sure I have it straight: your Evinrude dealer says that you should NOT use XD-50 in your FICHT engine?

Does he recommend XD-100, or does BRP continue to market the FICHT-RAM injector oil? I would think that XD-100 would be serviceable in a FICHT or any motor.

The XD-100 is expensive - you use very little in the E-TEC, but I'd hate to burn it at 50:1 or even 100:1 ratios, although I've done it in my 6 HP Evinrude and my brother's 50 HP Mercury.

Regarding your core question, I do not know enough about amsoil's product to comment on "equivalencies" in relation to XD-50 or XD-100.

posted 05-18-2009 02:28 PM ET (US)            

I don't know anything about the Amsoil injector oil but why take a chance to save a buck or two?

posted 05-18-2009 03:31 PM ET (US)            

I agree that it is not worth risk here.
The reason I am trying to figure it out is two fold:

1. the pure synthetic Amsoil products beat every other product in every other test I have seen and they have proven their worth in our auto shop with problem situations. they are so smooth they lower operating temps by 20 degrees. we have seen it many times.

2. I happen to have 4 gallons of the product.

but - it is not worth the risk unless I am certain it is good for the engine. and right now I am anything but certain - except that the type of oil matters.

thanks for you insights.

also - what octain do you burn in your FICHT 225 and what year is it ?

posted 05-18-2009 06:00 PM ET (US)            

Regarding oil, the manufacturer's oil has additives that they claim are formulated for their motors. For me, it's not worth saving a buck.

posted 05-19-2009 07:49 AM ET (US)            

using Amsoil is NOT motivated by cost savings.
If I wanted to save money I would use the cheaper Evinrude products.

Amsoils is a premium, full cost product which happens to outperform every other manufacturer's product in other catagories and other applications.

But - we all know the FFI technology is a bit different.

So the question is - can a use a product that exceeds the XD50 oil. My concern is that the XD100 also is more expensive but DIFFERENT.

so this just isn't that simple

my dealer can't even get it straight and consistent between their senior peopple on how to index the spark plugs so they are no help.

posted 05-19-2009 08:00 AM ET (US)            

The XD-50 is slightly different than the original Evinrude FICHT Ram oil from 2001. When Bombardier become the owner of Evinrude, they had different suppliers and specifications. The XD-50 is better than the old Ram oil.

Read your owners manual. It specifies a TC-W3 certified oil. Unless it just happened, Amsoil is not certified by the National Marine Manufacturer's Association, NMMA.

Amsoil "says" their oil meets TC-W3 specs, but that is marketing, it is not on the approved list by NMMA. Go to NMMA.org for the list of TC-W3 oils.

In their defense, Amsoil makes good products and thier synthetic 4-stroke oils is one of the few that made the NMMA's FC-W rating, which is the 4-stroke version of TC-W3 certification.

posted 05-19-2009 09:08 AM ET (US)            

The extra expense of the XD-100 is minimal and if the only benefit is that it is not necessary to periodically decarbonize my engine it is very well worth it.

I recommend you use XD-100 oil in your FICHTs.

posted 05-20-2009 09:03 AM ET (US)            

as of right now the plan is to use XD100 because I believe it to be the best available that is approved.

as a follow-up I plan to call Amsoil and talk to the technical folks and ask them why they are not approved and why they say they are and are not listed at the site below

http://www.nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/registeredoil.asp?y=TCW32008

I do not have this relevant info for outboards - but I do have it for snowmobiles - in the case of snowmobiles the rebuilder and big time snowmobiler I know gets into a ton of two stroke snowmobile engines that are run hard and he claims that amsoil is the best in terms of measurable wear and carbon buildup.

but my 22 is an outboard, not a snowmobile and my FICHT has specific needs that may be different.

posted 05-20-2009 09:36 AM ET (US)            

here is what they told me and showed me what to read.

1. they know they are not listed with NMMA TC-W3 and do not go through the test for one, and only one, reason - once an oil is tested it cannot be modified or tweeked in any way and that includes changing suppliers. this is OK for the large volume guys who lock in and do not typically keep improving the product available to the consumer until they make a major change with associated marketing rollout etc. Amsoil says they constantly improve products and will not lock themselves into the constraints of this system of approval.

2. The HP Injector is a direct replacement for the XD50 evinrude product that is 100% synthetic and will burn cleaner and cooler and works very well in a FICHT.

3. The HP Injector is NOT a replacement and is NOT intended to be used for XD100 applications.

4. Amsoil makes a product known as SABER which is a 100 ratio 100% synthetic product but it also is NOT recomended as a replacement for the XD100 becuase while Saber is an excellent 100:1 ration two stroke oil it is for premix only as the XD100 oil has a significant viscosity change from other 100 oils to match it to the unique injector characteristics of the evinrude motors calling for XD100 (e-tecs?).

product info - www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g1986.pdf

CONCLUSIONS based on a long discussion with the technical department at amsoil.

1. HP Injector is a fine 100% synthetic replacement for XD50 but should NEVER be used to replace XD100. the fact that they are both synthetic is irrelevant. they think the HP Injector is better than the XD50 which is also a quality oil. the point is they are both good and compatible.

2. There is a big difference in viscosity between XD50 and XD100 oil beyond (1) the increased synthetic of the XD100 over the XD50 and (2) design for 100:1 ratio. Amsoil outright says ONLY use the XD100 oil for an evinrude XD100 engine - not their Saber 100 two stroke product.

3. I don't know what this all means for FICHT users who use XD100. I know using an XD50 oil in an XD100 application is bad - but I dont' know about going the other way - and nor did the technical guy at amsoil who otherwise knew alot about the evinrude oils. He did say the viscosity is different for each engine for real reaspons. For what it is worth, I believe both companies are Wisconsin companies so they are probobly very familiar with each other.

I hope this information is helful.

posted 05-20-2009 09:41 AM ET (US)            

can you tell me exactly how you run the engine tuner through your engine?

my local dealer told me to spary it directly into the air intake.

posted 05-20-2009 10:24 AM ET (US)            

quote:

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Has anyone used and/or is there a benefit to using either XD50 or XD100 in old fashioned OMCs with VRO, say from the mid 90s? I've always used the TCW3 oils. Just curious!

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Many people use the two premium oils, both premixing or with "VRO" systems.

The XD-50 smokes much less than regular oils and keeps the carbon buildup to a soft coating, not hard chunks.

posted 05-20-2009 11:35 AM ET (US)            

As a slight expansion on the comments from the technical guy at Amsoil for XD50 vs. XD100 in different outboards:

1. the older carb outboards, and the FICTH outboards were designed for a 50:1 oil and in the case of FICHT it had a specific viscosity for the FFI system. using a 50:1 pure synthetic oil is a great idea in my mind. amsoil makes a good one in HP Injector.

2. I believe XD50 is a partial synthetic - a "blend" not 100% synthetic. many auto oils also are blends to reduce cost. http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Accessories/Product.htm?product=XD50&category=Oil

IMHO not the best idea - a pure synthetic is better (and this has been demonstrated in tests using aircraft oil analysis services to measure very small levels of engine metals in the oil.)

3. XD100 appears to be pure synthetic and absolutely requires evinrude to reprogram the engine to use it appropriately and has a different viscosity than the XD50 (the viscosity would not matter for pre mix but apparently does matter for direct injection)
http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/Accessories/Product.htm?product=XD100&category=Oil

4. From my related 2 cycle experience (not outboard) - pure synthetic will burn cleaner with less smoke - so using the XD100 in an XD50 application would be expected to have less smoke. I believe the smoke is unburnt hydrocarbons in particulate sizes seen by the human eye. synthetic oil has much more uniform structure and so it should produce much fewer large size particulates in the form of smoke - but particulate sizes in exhaust are not the only relevant indicator of an oils performance

5. My intuition tells me that using an oil intended for a different ratio is not optimal and smoke is not necessarily the best way to evaluate this as a pure synthetic will almost surely always smoke less - but simply moving to a pure synthetic of different viscosity is not necessarily the right thing to do - especially if you are not premixing. the evinrude engineers changed viscosity for a reason and if the different viscocity were "discovered" to be better for everyone then I expect they would have changed it accross the board.

posted 06-02-2009 09:21 PM ET (US)            

This is a great thread, very informative. I just bought a Crestliner 2050 with a 1999 Evinrude 150 hp Ficht. I knew about the issues but decided to go ahead because it was a super deal (if I have to re-power, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world). I watched it start and run for a minute or two on two different occasions.

The motor seems to be running all right. I'm not sure if the powerhead was ever serviced or replaced (it has the manila card outlinging the "important upgrade" PN 5001213).

Obviously, I want to do what I can to keep it running for as long as possible. After reading the whole thread, I think I agree with the last post... I will use the HP Injector or Evinrude XD50.

posted 06-04-2009 01:03 AM ET (US)            

quote:

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Can XD-50 oil be mixed with XD-30 or would the remote oil tanks need to be emptied first?

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It will mix fine, but to get the maximum benefit, run the oil tank low before adding the xd-50.

posted 06-04-2009 02:03 AM ET (US)            

quote:

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Are you guys saying I can use XD100 in my conventional Mercury 2-strokes, carb or EFI, and get no idle and start-up smoke at all

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Larry, it's true, however your outboards will slowly begin turning white...

posted 06-04-2009 10:13 AM ET (US)            

I believe your older style outboard will not give the complete combustion that is part of the reason these newer models smoke less

I believe the older outboards don't just dump unburnt fuel out due to valve/reed timing - I believe the older outboard also can't burn all the fuel as well and I believe partially burnt fuel increases smoke and reduces fuel efficiencey

posted 06-04-2009 10:24 AM ET (US)            

quote:

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I have seen black painted Yamahas, but as of yet, no black painted E-tecs.

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There are special edition dark colored E-TECs, graphite colored, for the special edition Ranger bass boats.

posted 06-04-2009 10:30 AM ET (US)            

1. Synthetic oil or paritally synthetic oil should reduce smoke compared to non synthetic due in part to more consistent molecule size (and perhaps improved additive formulation?)- all other things the same (like in the same engine).

seperately

2. Older style outboard do not offer as complete a combustion as DI outboards which is why the newer outboards have higher fuel efficiency and better environmental ratings - so using even pure synthetic may reduce smoke compared to non synthetic oil - but the old style engine will probobly not be as smoke free as a new DI engine.

posted 06-17-2009 09:21 AM ET (US)            

I just got off the phone with Evinrude to confirm this advice.

Evinrude said two important things I want to pass on.

1. XD100 is the best oil for a FICHT

BUT.......

2. He said it is critical to do a full and complete, almost excessive decarb job before switching. He said the XD100 would break up the carbon left by the XD50 but not in small pieces. He said it breaks up the carbon in LARGE pieces that can cause problems.

posted 01-31-2010 11:20 AM ET (US)            

http://www.sea-doo.net/techarticles/oil/oil.htm

The point is that 33% higher combustion temperature is required to get rid of the ash in XD-100, so there could be a problem with older motors at least at low to moderate RPM. I've run XD-100 in our 1983 Johnson 35 @ 6100 RPM @ 37.5/1 mix. With one heat range cooler plug (L2-G) the plug runs slightly wet and dark and the motor spits/misses in a strange way if I come off the throttle suddenly. With the standard heat range plug (L77J4/L3-G) then the plug is dry and chocolate brown. The latter is not necessarily a good sign if you're running full spark advance with pump 93 octane gas!