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Author Topic:   1986 Evinrude 225 no mid range power?

Contender25 posted 06-03-2009 07:00 PM ET (US)
I recently acquired a low hour 1986 Evinrude 225 Model # E225TXCDA that has me scratching my head and I am hoping someone may have some ideas for me to look at.
The engine will bog down and die while increasing the throttle to get the boat, 1986 22 Outrage, onto plane the max RPM before stalling is 2500-3000. I have tried squeezing the fuel bulb to no avail BUT when I hit the choke during the "bogging" the engine pulls through and gets the boat onto plane and through the entire throttle range. This has me convinced it is a fuel problem (I could be convinced otherwise of course) At planing speeds the engine "purrs"
I have done the following to try to fix this
New Fuel pump (VRO 4 wire)
New Fuel lines
New Fuel
Tried a different Fuel tank
removed inspected and cleaned all Carburetors
Two other fun facts about this motor: it does have a what seems to be a lean sneeze at idle (before aforementioned work was performed and now) and for the first run, IE: back boat off of trailer and head out the inlet, there are no issues with mid range power this only happens after reaching high rpms, backing down to idle and then trying to get back onto plane its like a tease you think you have it whipped then it bites you in the arse.
thanks in advance for your thoughts and if I missed anything I will add it or answer any questions you think relevant

tx
J

JMARTIN posted 06-03-2009 07:57 PM ET (US)
Does the motor have the doo-hickey choke thing as described at the end of this post?
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/006713.html
John
PATXBill posted 06-03-2009 09:30 PM ET (US)
Could be a heat soak / jetting problem. I had a similar experience with my 1987 225 Evinrude. Would run fine cold, but warmed up it would bog down around 2500-3000 rpm.
3rd Mechanic (long-term problem the first two couldn't fix) told me that I had a "heat soak" problem that reared its head on the transition from the low-speed to high speed jets (they're fixed jets on my'87, I believe on your '86, also). He re-jetted my carbs to run richer and the problem went away like magic.
Your "lean sneeze" may indicate a need for richer jets.
More detail in the reply to this post: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/015396.html
jimh posted 06-04-2009 09:20 AM ET (US)
I have an Evinrude 225-HP motor. On occasion I have noticed a slight hesitation to accelerate. I interpret this as a sign that the spark plug gap has widened from the recommended 0.030-inch spark gap. Re-setting the spark plug gap eliminates this hesitation. I do not know if this is applicable to your situation, but I do suggest you eliminate it as a possible cause. Check your spark plug gap and re-set to 0.030-inch if there has been erosion of the electrode to a wider gap.
Contender25 posted 06-05-2009 04:44 PM ET (US)
Thank you for your insight.
Jim I neglected to note I did swap out plugs and confirmed the proper gap.
PATXbill- you seem to be onto the issue, I did some more research and come to find out 1986 225's had a reputation for jetting issues as the fixed jet carbs were problematic. One way to determine if this was the issue was to place toothpicks into the idle speed jets. Sure enough with the idle speed jets plugged the power came back through the entire RPM range. I plan to buy smaller diameter idle speed jets, currently they are #20's and I plan to buy #16's.
Unfortunately, I think the engine now has a new, possible much more serious issue, it has an odd rattle at various RPM speeds. the rattle intensifies with RPM and sounds awful. It sounds like it is coming for somewhere under the flywheel but all is well under there, magnets are clean nothing is hitting anything etc etc.
I need to step away from the engine for a few days before I through my wrenches at it.....it seems like once I fix one thing another creeps up Ahhhh the love for older machinery and I am serious about that there is not much as rewarding as trouble shooting and fixing (well not there yet) these things.
My plan is to run another compression test, inspect the pistons, and cylinder walls and go from there. My other OMC engines have made a similar noise from time to time but this "rattle" un-nerves me a tad.
thanks for helping
J
Peter posted 06-05-2009 05:30 PM ET (US)
The rattle could be coming from the gearcase. The noise from a gearcase problem will sound like its coming from the powerhead.
Contender25 posted 06-06-2009 07:12 AM ET (US)
tx peter- looks like i will add a fluid check into the mix as well.
Contender25 posted 06-08-2009 06:58 AM ET (US)
All checks went well with even compression, clean looking cylinder walls and pistons, and clean gear oil.
While poking under the flywheel I noted the sound of pushing the timer base and assembly up and down resembled the sound I hear. Perhaps the vibration of the engine a certain RPM levels reaches the natural frequency of the timer base? who knows I have heard of stranger things (like sticking toothpicks into the idle speed jets)
I am going to order the #16 jets today and go for hopefully a final test run later this week.
jimh posted 06-08-2009 09:01 AM ET (US)
Please explain why you are changing the idle speed jets on the six carburetors of your 1986 Evinrude 225-HP motor to size 16 from the larger size 20 jets which are in place now. I am curious to know your motivation for this. What effect will changing the jet size produce?
I recall reading that there has been some discussion about the size of the carburetor jets used on certain OMC motors. Was your decision to change the size of the carburetor jets based on a recommendation from OMC? Or from a mechanic?
Contender25 posted 06-08-2009 10:53 AM ET (US)
Jim- Going down in size from 20 to 16 will increase the qty of fuel that is dispensed through the jet. Smaller the jet size larger qty of fuel. With the 20's as in now the engine is starved of fuel in the mid range hence the lack of power.
The recommendation to stick toothpicks in the idle speed jets and move to #16's came from a past OMC / current Bombardier authorized mechanic.
Do you have a link to the previous discussion on jet size?
seahorse posted 06-08-2009 10:52 PM ET (US)
When the 1986 Looper 225hp came out, it had large bore carburetors that caused all kinds of problems on certain boats. There were bulletins, service letters, and factory field fixes that ranged from drilling extra exhaust relief holes to rejetting to replacing carburetors.
Most running 1986's do not have the original carbs and jetting, but may have 1987 and later carburetors, V-8 carbs, or possibly just different jets to make it run better.
That was over 20 years ago, so who knows what setup your engine has on it now.
Perhaps you can find an old-timer dealer who has the service literature from back then, but first would have to determine what model and year carbs you have.
jimh posted 06-09-2009 12:42 AM ET (US)
I don't think I understand the numbering system of the jets. Does the size of the opening or orifice of the jet correspond in proportion to the model number? Or is the correspondence an inverse relationship, that is, the larger the number the smaller the orifice?
jimh posted 06-09-2009 12:54 AM ET (US)
I did some research in my 1992 V6 Service manual. It appears the number of the jet refers to the dimension in 1/1000th-inch, thus a number 16 orifice has an opening of 0.016-inch.
I believe that the "jets" or orifices for mid-range are air bleed orifices, not fuel orifices. From this I assume that means the smaller the number, the smaller the orifice, and the less air allowed through. That would tend to make the fuel-air mixture richer, I think. I'll let experts comment and straighten this out.
Contender25 posted 06-09-2009 07:00 AM ET (US)

Jim, do you have the part # for your # 16 orifice?
seahorse posted 06-09-2009 07:02 AM ET (US)
Yep, those are air bleed jets in question and are on both the idle and mid-range circuits.
It takes about 4-6 air jet sizes to equal a single fuel jet change the low or mid-range.
Most of the later service manuals up to about 1998 had a chart of all the jet sizes, types, and part numbers.
Contender25 posted 06-09-2009 04:27 PM ET (US)
Found the Part # 333243 in case anyone else ever needs it

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Author	Topic: 1986 Evinrude 225 no mid range power?
Contender25	posted 06-03-2009 07:00 PM ET (US) I recently acquired a low hour 1986 Evinrude 225 Model # E225TXCDA that has me scratching my head and I am hoping someone may have some ideas for me to look at. The engine will bog down and die while increasing the throttle to get the boat, 1986 22 Outrage, onto plane the max RPM before stalling is 2500-3000. I have tried squeezing the fuel bulb to no avail BUT when I hit the choke during the "bogging" the engine pulls through and gets the boat onto plane and through the entire throttle range. This has me convinced it is a fuel problem (I could be convinced otherwise of course) At planing speeds the engine "purrs" I have done the following to try to fix this New Fuel pump (VRO 4 wire) New Fuel lines New Fuel Tried a different Fuel tank removed inspected and cleaned all Carburetors Two other fun facts about this motor: it does have a what seems to be a lean sneeze at idle (before aforementioned work was performed and now) and for the first run, IE: back boat off of trailer and head out the inlet, there are no issues with mid range power this only happens after reaching high rpms, backing down to idle and then trying to get back onto plane its like a tease you think you have it whipped then it bites you in the arse. thanks in advance for your thoughts and if I missed anything I will add it or answer any questions you think relevant tx J
JMARTIN	posted 06-03-2009 07:57 PM ET (US) Does the motor have the doo-hickey choke thing as described at the end of this post? http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/006713.html John
PATXBill	posted 06-03-2009 09:30 PM ET (US) Could be a heat soak / jetting problem. I had a similar experience with my 1987 225 Evinrude. Would run fine cold, but warmed up it would bog down around 2500-3000 rpm. 3rd Mechanic (long-term problem the first two couldn't fix) told me that I had a "heat soak" problem that reared its head on the transition from the low-speed to high speed jets (they're fixed jets on my'87, I believe on your '86, also). He re-jetted my carbs to run richer and the problem went away like magic. Your "lean sneeze" may indicate a need for richer jets. More detail in the reply to this post: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/015396.html
jimh	posted 06-04-2009 09:20 AM ET (US) I have an Evinrude 225-HP motor. On occasion I have noticed a slight hesitation to accelerate. I interpret this as a sign that the spark plug gap has widened from the recommended 0.030-inch spark gap. Re-setting the spark plug gap eliminates this hesitation. I do not know if this is applicable to your situation, but I do suggest you eliminate it as a possible cause. Check your spark plug gap and re-set to 0.030-inch if there has been erosion of the electrode to a wider gap.
Contender25	posted 06-05-2009 04:44 PM ET (US) Thank you for your insight. Jim I neglected to note I did swap out plugs and confirmed the proper gap. PATXbill- you seem to be onto the issue, I did some more research and come to find out 1986 225's had a reputation for jetting issues as the fixed jet carbs were problematic. One way to determine if this was the issue was to place toothpicks into the idle speed jets. Sure enough with the idle speed jets plugged the power came back through the entire RPM range. I plan to buy smaller diameter idle speed jets, currently they are #20's and I plan to buy #16's. Unfortunately, I think the engine now has a new, possible much more serious issue, it has an odd rattle at various RPM speeds. the rattle intensifies with RPM and sounds awful. It sounds like it is coming for somewhere under the flywheel but all is well under there, magnets are clean nothing is hitting anything etc etc. I need to step away from the engine for a few days before I through my wrenches at it.....it seems like once I fix one thing another creeps up Ahhhh the love for older machinery and I am serious about that there is not much as rewarding as trouble shooting and fixing (well not there yet) these things. My plan is to run another compression test, inspect the pistons, and cylinder walls and go from there. My other OMC engines have made a similar noise from time to time but this "rattle" un-nerves me a tad. thanks for helping J
Peter	posted 06-05-2009 05:30 PM ET (US) The rattle could be coming from the gearcase. The noise from a gearcase problem will sound like its coming from the powerhead.
Contender25	posted 06-06-2009 07:12 AM ET (US) tx peter- looks like i will add a fluid check into the mix as well.
Contender25	posted 06-08-2009 06:58 AM ET (US) All checks went well with even compression, clean looking cylinder walls and pistons, and clean gear oil. While poking under the flywheel I noted the sound of pushing the timer base and assembly up and down resembled the sound I hear. Perhaps the vibration of the engine a certain RPM levels reaches the natural frequency of the timer base? who knows I have heard of stranger things (like sticking toothpicks into the idle speed jets) I am going to order the #16 jets today and go for hopefully a final test run later this week.
jimh	posted 06-08-2009 09:01 AM ET (US) Please explain why you are changing the idle speed jets on the six carburetors of your 1986 Evinrude 225-HP motor to size 16 from the larger size 20 jets which are in place now. I am curious to know your motivation for this. What effect will changing the jet size produce? I recall reading that there has been some discussion about the size of the carburetor jets used on certain OMC motors. Was your decision to change the size of the carburetor jets based on a recommendation from OMC? Or from a mechanic?
Contender25	posted 06-08-2009 10:53 AM ET (US) Jim- Going down in size from 20 to 16 will increase the qty of fuel that is dispensed through the jet. Smaller the jet size larger qty of fuel. With the 20's as in now the engine is starved of fuel in the mid range hence the lack of power. The recommendation to stick toothpicks in the idle speed jets and move to #16's came from a past OMC / current Bombardier authorized mechanic. Do you have a link to the previous discussion on jet size?
seahorse	posted 06-08-2009 10:52 PM ET (US) When the 1986 Looper 225hp came out, it had large bore carburetors that caused all kinds of problems on certain boats. There were bulletins, service letters, and factory field fixes that ranged from drilling extra exhaust relief holes to rejetting to replacing carburetors. Most running 1986's do not have the original carbs and jetting, but may have 1987 and later carburetors, V-8 carbs, or possibly just different jets to make it run better. That was over 20 years ago, so who knows what setup your engine has on it now. Perhaps you can find an old-timer dealer who has the service literature from back then, but first would have to determine what model and year carbs you have.
jimh	posted 06-09-2009 12:42 AM ET (US) I don't think I understand the numbering system of the jets. Does the size of the opening or orifice of the jet correspond in proportion to the model number? Or is the correspondence an inverse relationship, that is, the larger the number the smaller the orifice?
jimh	posted 06-09-2009 12:54 AM ET (US) I did some research in my 1992 V6 Service manual. It appears the number of the jet refers to the dimension in 1/1000th-inch, thus a number 16 orifice has an opening of 0.016-inch. I believe that the "jets" or orifices for mid-range are air bleed orifices, not fuel orifices. From this I assume that means the smaller the number, the smaller the orifice, and the less air allowed through. That would tend to make the fuel-air mixture richer, I think. I'll let experts comment and straighten this out.
Contender25	posted 06-09-2009 07:00 AM ET (US) Jim, do you have the part # for your # 16 orifice?
seahorse	posted 06-09-2009 07:02 AM ET (US) Yep, those are air bleed jets in question and are on both the idle and mid-range circuits. It takes about 4-6 air jet sizes to equal a single fuel jet change the low or mid-range. Most of the later service manuals up to about 1998 had a chart of all the jet sizes, types, and part numbers.
Contender25	posted 06-09-2009 04:27 PM ET (US) Found the Part # 333243 in case anyone else ever needs it