Guardian 22 Re-Power with Twin Engines - Moderated Discussion Areas

  ContinuousWave
  Whaler
  Moderated Discussion Areas
  ContinuousWave: Whaler Performance
  Guardian 22 Re-Power with Twin Engines

search | FAQ | profile | register | author help

Author Topic:   Guardian 22 Re-Power with Twin Engines

BTwolverine posted 07-17-2009 06:26 PM ET (US)
Hello to all. I [seek] suggestions on repowering my Guardian 22. This is the first boat I have owned. I plan on putting two engines on so any advice on controls and propellers would be appreciated. Also, the max horsepower for this boat is 240. Would I be safe in getting twin 125-HP motors or should I go the conservative route and opt for the twin 115-HP motors?
I know, I know this is a touchy subject but since I have been going with Yamaha motors for my last two boats, any suggestions on American built two-cycle twins?
Again, any help would be appreciated!
Regards,

Brian

Tohsgib posted 07-20-2009 01:53 PM ET (US)
Any modern 115 is going to be kinda heavy compared to 1980's stuff. I do not think you will have a problem with any of them though to be honest, especially on a guardian. I also would not touch a Merc 125 due to it's funky cylinder deactivation and thirst for fuel. Any modern 115's should perform fine. The lightest would be the E-tec or Optimax at 375, the Suzuki being the heaviest at 416. Not much of range to worry about.
Buckda posted 07-20-2009 01:56 PM ET (US)
Twin 130 HP E-TEC's or step up and just put twin 150's on it.
I would not hesitate to put either a Mercury or Evinrude on the boat, depending on my intended useage needs. I put twin E-TEC 90's on my 18' Outrage because I regularly find myself in remote locations where sea tow and other on-the-water assistance is either not available or not at all convenient. The E-TEC motors can be pull-started and will start and continue to run with no battery power.
L H G posted 07-20-2009 03:47 PM ET (US)
If you truly want to buy all American, your only choice is Mercury. The brand new 3 cylinder 125 Optimax might be worth looking at. You can beat the rating game buy using the 115XS Optimax, which are 123 HP. 375# each.
Good representative pricing indications on Mercury here:
http://jacosmarine.com/
jimh posted 07-20-2009 08:43 PM ET (US)
The Mercury OptiMax motors are not truly American. They use the Orbital Combustion Process, under license from Australian ORBITAL. If you want a truly All-American motor, get the E-TEC.
:-)
L H G posted 07-20-2009 09:56 PM ET (US)
I wasn't aware Quebec had joined the Union!
jimh posted 07-20-2009 10:17 PM ET (US)
I don't think Quebec is in the Confederation or the Commonwealth, either.
Tom W Clark posted 07-20-2009 10:39 PM ET (US)
If you want American, it's down to Mercury or Evinrude and even the more powerful V-4 E-TEC 115 weighs 375 pounds which is way too much for twins on a Guardian 22.
SpongeBob posted 07-20-2009 11:39 PM ET (US)
Everything I've read tells me that my 1985 120hp Evinrudes on my 1982 22' Outrage weigh around 370 lbs. each. If that is true then 115 E-Tecs should work, only adding 10 lbs. total weight. I may be wrong on the weght of my 120's so if someone could point me to a definative sourse let me know.
Jeff
Jeff posted 07-21-2009 12:25 AM ET (US)
Brian,
Some 22' Guardians where built with an upgraded transom which raised the rating to 300hp. Did you find any type of capacity plate that read 240hp or were you just going off of the 22 Outrage rating?
We have had a 22 Guardian in our family now for 4 years. The boat was build with the upgraded transom and is rigged with twin Mercury XR6 2.5 liter V6 150's. Those motors weigh in at about 430 lbs a piece. The boat is a bit stern heavy but not to bad. That said though it does also have the optional full width splash gate which really does help keep the rollers out of the cockpit when fishing Lake Michigan off Frankfort. Without that gate it would be wet in there.
As for performance, we finally got the boat dialing in this past weekend. The motors are mounted one hole up and turning 4 Blade 14 1/4" x 17" stainless TURBO props. The boat runs up to 48mph (5300 RPM) in a hurry and begins to get squirrelly above at that point. I have not been able to get flat calm water to see if I can get more but we are happy with that. The best on the old 14 1/4" x 19 aluminum SOLAS 3 blade props was just over 50 on a super flat calm Torch Lake though at the rest of the operating speeds they did not perform very well. In fact the boat would not stay on plane below 23 - 24 mph with the aluminum props. The hole shot is nonexistent with twin of this power. Put the throttles down and the boat pops up on plane and is off. Slam the throttles and you will put everyone one on the floor. Now the boat will run on plane as low as 18 mph and run comfortably at cruise any where from 24 to over 35mph. The acceleration with these new props is strong as well. Just nudge the throttles down and it will pull off like a freight train.
After running the props as twins we tried to get the boat up on a single motor. The boat lumbered and lumbered up on plane even with one motor completely tilted out of the water, the other motor trimmed all the way in and the tabs in the full bow down position. After just over 45 seconds of WOT pushing the boat began to slowly come on plane. Once up and running it took 4400 RPM to keep the hull at a cruise and WOT was at 5000 for just about 30 mph.
I have no numbers for fuel consumption. Here is non=scientific numbers. The boat has a 129 gallon fuel tank and all I can note is we get more or less 10 to 11 hours of light idle and mostly cruising around 30 mph.
All of that said, if I was going to rerig the boat I would look at the E-Tec 115 H.O. or the 130. Which you drop some 80lbs off the transom. If you wanted to go Mercury your are looking at the Opti Max. You go the route of 115's like LHG mentioned or, look at the 135, 150 and 175 all weigh the same at 431-lbs. If money is not a factor I say rig the motor with the most horsepower to weight in it's category...Hence the 175.
If you do not have the splash gate and are worried about water rolling into the cockpit look into rigging an E-Tec 250 H.O. at 515-lbs or Mercury Mercury 250 Opti Max at 505-lbs.
If you want to go Yamaha you could rig an HPDI 200 at 471-lbs, twin 115s at 358-lbs or twin VMax carb'd 150's at 418-lbs.
All in all it will be up to you and how you want to use the boat. If you like you are welcome to come along for a ride on ours when we are heading out. Right now the boat is back home in the Detroit area to use locally and will be heading back to Frankfort in Mid August - the end of September.
Here are images of the boat to see if yours is like ours.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ Frankfort%207-09/
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ First%20run/
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ Fall%20Fishing/?start=all
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ fall%20fishing%2007/WALLPAPER2.jpg?t=1248148619
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/Home/
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ Transom%20Detail/
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ running%20on%20single/

Feel free to email me if I can help at all.
Cheers,
Jeff
Jeff posted 07-21-2009 12:39 AM ET (US)
Sorry I forgot the other twin E-Tec options inset after at the end of the 6th paragraph: Now, the E-Tec 150, 175, and 200 all weight in at 418 lbs. So, you "could" have twin 200hp E-Tecs and have less weight on the transom than twin 175 Mercury Opti maxs. Though, at twin 150 motor you will be going as fast as you really ever need to.
jimh posted 07-21-2009 07:56 AM ET (US)
Jeff--Thanks for all that great information.
Peter posted 07-21-2009 09:11 AM ET (US)
While the E-TEC 130 and the Optimax 125 weigh about the same, with the E-TEC 130 you get:
- more displacement (1.7L vs. 1.5L)
- more cylinders (V4 instead of an I3)
- auto-storage mode (convenient for Michigan climate) vs. none
- battery independent fuel injection system vs. battery dependent system
- NMEA 2000 compatibility vs. proprietary SmartCraft not NMEA 2000 compatible
- a company that is completely committed to advanced 2-stroke technology for outboard motors.

L H G posted 07-22-2009 01:22 AM ET (US)
I just don't get it, Peter. You are so lucky. E-tec owner and CW patrolman Fourdfish calls me a Mercury salesman all the time, but when you make your pitch, he never calls you an Evinrude salesman. Not a very Fair and Balanced approach, I guess.
Peter posted 07-22-2009 07:33 AM ET (US)
Larry -- The difference is I'm not selling, I'm just pointing out some comparative facts for consideration because, if you read Brian's initial post, Brian was looking for suggestions on American built two-cycle twins. Other people had already suggested E-TECs without even pointing out advantages. For some reason you haven't complained about them doing so. Why not?
Perhaps the difference is that unlike you with respect to each and every Evinrude E-TEC discussion thread, I don't jump into each and every Mercury discussion thread to try to derail such by pitching Evinrudes (or Yamahas or Hondas or Suzukis or Tohatsus). When someone is asking for open ended suggestions like Brian is, I'm providing some information for consideration as you rightfully did here.
Unlike you, it does not matter to me whether Brian chooses a Mercury or an Evinrude. I get no financial gain from that either way.
itl posted 07-22-2009 08:43 AM ET (US)
"If you want a truly All-American motor, get the E-TEC."
Really, E-TEC is a developed from Evirude Ficht direct injection technology. The Ficht direct injection technology was originally developed by German engineer Wolfgang Heimberg. In mid 1990s OMC buy a license to use the technology and later on buy 51% interest in the technology :-)
So E-Tec fans should thanks Germans and Opti fans should thanks Australians about the marvelous direct injection technology :-)
jimh posted 07-22-2009 03:13 PM ET (US)
BRP or OMC bought the intellectual property behind the FICHT injection, and the E-TEC is not the same as FICHT, it is a further invention. But BRP owns the technology and developed it in-house in Wisconsin. They even made their own injectors and developed their extraordinary system of coefficients to give precision to their control. Later BRP sold the manufacturing facility to an Orbital-VDO joint venture, who actually make the E-TEC injectors under contract for the exclusive use of BRP in the E-TEC.
As for importing technical expertise from Germany, Mercury hired German auto engineer Claus Bruestle from Porsche to take charge of their four-cycle outboard motor development program which resulted in the VERADO.
My comments were really in jest, as my [smiley face icon] indicated. There's no such things as an All-American motor these days. For example, most of them use a Japanese-made SHOWA trim tilt assembly.
Tohsgib posted 07-22-2009 03:39 PM ET (US)
I bet the starters say Hitachi on them as well...somewhere.
L H G posted 07-22-2009 08:30 PM ET (US)
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...................

Hop to:

Contact Us | RETURN to ContinuousWave Top Page

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Freeware Version 2000
Purchase our Licensed Version- which adds many more features!
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.

Author	Topic: Guardian 22 Re-Power with Twin Engines
BTwolverine	posted 07-17-2009 06:26 PM ET (US) Hello to all. I [seek] suggestions on repowering my Guardian 22. This is the first boat I have owned. I plan on putting two engines on so any advice on controls and propellers would be appreciated. Also, the max horsepower for this boat is 240. Would I be safe in getting twin 125-HP motors or should I go the conservative route and opt for the twin 115-HP motors? I know, I know this is a touchy subject but since I have been going with Yamaha motors for my last two boats, any suggestions on American built two-cycle twins? Again, any help would be appreciated! Regards, Brian
Tohsgib	posted 07-20-2009 01:53 PM ET (US) Any modern 115 is going to be kinda heavy compared to 1980's stuff. I do not think you will have a problem with any of them though to be honest, especially on a guardian. I also would not touch a Merc 125 due to it's funky cylinder deactivation and thirst for fuel. Any modern 115's should perform fine. The lightest would be the E-tec or Optimax at 375, the Suzuki being the heaviest at 416. Not much of range to worry about.
Buckda	posted 07-20-2009 01:56 PM ET (US) Twin 130 HP E-TEC's or step up and just put twin 150's on it. I would not hesitate to put either a Mercury or Evinrude on the boat, depending on my intended useage needs. I put twin E-TEC 90's on my 18' Outrage because I regularly find myself in remote locations where sea tow and other on-the-water assistance is either not available or not at all convenient. The E-TEC motors can be pull-started and will start and continue to run with no battery power.
L H G	posted 07-20-2009 03:47 PM ET (US) If you truly want to buy all American, your only choice is Mercury. The brand new 3 cylinder 125 Optimax might be worth looking at. You can beat the rating game buy using the 115XS Optimax, which are 123 HP. 375# each. Good representative pricing indications on Mercury here: http://jacosmarine.com/
jimh	posted 07-20-2009 08:43 PM ET (US) The Mercury OptiMax motors are not truly American. They use the Orbital Combustion Process, under license from Australian ORBITAL. If you want a truly All-American motor, get the E-TEC. :-)
L H G	posted 07-20-2009 09:56 PM ET (US) I wasn't aware Quebec had joined the Union!
jimh	posted 07-20-2009 10:17 PM ET (US) I don't think Quebec is in the Confederation or the Commonwealth, either.
Tom W Clark	posted 07-20-2009 10:39 PM ET (US) If you want American, it's down to Mercury or Evinrude and even the more powerful V-4 E-TEC 115 weighs 375 pounds which is way too much for twins on a Guardian 22.
SpongeBob	posted 07-20-2009 11:39 PM ET (US) Everything I've read tells me that my 1985 120hp Evinrudes on my 1982 22' Outrage weigh around 370 lbs. each. If that is true then 115 E-Tecs should work, only adding 10 lbs. total weight. I may be wrong on the weght of my 120's so if someone could point me to a definative sourse let me know. Jeff
Jeff	posted 07-21-2009 12:25 AM ET (US) Brian, Some 22' Guardians where built with an upgraded transom which raised the rating to 300hp. Did you find any type of capacity plate that read 240hp or were you just going off of the 22 Outrage rating? We have had a 22 Guardian in our family now for 4 years. The boat was build with the upgraded transom and is rigged with twin Mercury XR6 2.5 liter V6 150's. Those motors weigh in at about 430 lbs a piece. The boat is a bit stern heavy but not to bad. That said though it does also have the optional full width splash gate which really does help keep the rollers out of the cockpit when fishing Lake Michigan off Frankfort. Without that gate it would be wet in there. As for performance, we finally got the boat dialing in this past weekend. The motors are mounted one hole up and turning 4 Blade 14 1/4" x 17" stainless TURBO props. The boat runs up to 48mph (5300 RPM) in a hurry and begins to get squirrelly above at that point. I have not been able to get flat calm water to see if I can get more but we are happy with that. The best on the old 14 1/4" x 19 aluminum SOLAS 3 blade props was just over 50 on a super flat calm Torch Lake though at the rest of the operating speeds they did not perform very well. In fact the boat would not stay on plane below 23 - 24 mph with the aluminum props. The hole shot is nonexistent with twin of this power. Put the throttles down and the boat pops up on plane and is off. Slam the throttles and you will put everyone one on the floor. Now the boat will run on plane as low as 18 mph and run comfortably at cruise any where from 24 to over 35mph. The acceleration with these new props is strong as well. Just nudge the throttles down and it will pull off like a freight train. After running the props as twins we tried to get the boat up on a single motor. The boat lumbered and lumbered up on plane even with one motor completely tilted out of the water, the other motor trimmed all the way in and the tabs in the full bow down position. After just over 45 seconds of WOT pushing the boat began to slowly come on plane. Once up and running it took 4400 RPM to keep the hull at a cruise and WOT was at 5000 for just about 30 mph. I have no numbers for fuel consumption. Here is non=scientific numbers. The boat has a 129 gallon fuel tank and all I can note is we get more or less 10 to 11 hours of light idle and mostly cruising around 30 mph. All of that said, if I was going to rerig the boat I would look at the E-Tec 115 H.O. or the 130. Which you drop some 80lbs off the transom. If you wanted to go Mercury your are looking at the Opti Max. You go the route of 115's like LHG mentioned or, look at the 135, 150 and 175 all weigh the same at 431-lbs. If money is not a factor I say rig the motor with the most horsepower to weight in it's category...Hence the 175. If you do not have the splash gate and are worried about water rolling into the cockpit look into rigging an E-Tec 250 H.O. at 515-lbs or Mercury Mercury 250 Opti Max at 505-lbs. If you want to go Yamaha you could rig an HPDI 200 at 471-lbs, twin 115s at 358-lbs or twin VMax carb'd 150's at 418-lbs. All in all it will be up to you and how you want to use the boat. If you like you are welcome to come along for a ride on ours when we are heading out. Right now the boat is back home in the Detroit area to use locally and will be heading back to Frankfort in Mid August - the end of September. Here are images of the boat to see if yours is like ours. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ Frankfort%207-09/ http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ First%20run/ http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ Fall%20Fishing/?start=all http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ fall%20fishing%2007/WALLPAPER2.jpg?t=1248148619 http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/Home/ http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ Transom%20Detail/ http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Dads%2022/ running%20on%20single/ Feel free to email me if I can help at all. Cheers, Jeff
Jeff	posted 07-21-2009 12:39 AM ET (US) Sorry I forgot the other twin E-Tec options inset after at the end of the 6th paragraph: Now, the E-Tec 150, 175, and 200 all weight in at 418 lbs. So, you "could" have twin 200hp E-Tecs and have less weight on the transom than twin 175 Mercury Opti maxs. Though, at twin 150 motor you will be going as fast as you really ever need to.
jimh	posted 07-21-2009 07:56 AM ET (US) Jeff--Thanks for all that great information.
Peter	posted 07-21-2009 09:11 AM ET (US) While the E-TEC 130 and the Optimax 125 weigh about the same, with the E-TEC 130 you get: - more displacement (1.7L vs. 1.5L) - more cylinders (V4 instead of an I3) - auto-storage mode (convenient for Michigan climate) vs. none - battery independent fuel injection system vs. battery dependent system - NMEA 2000 compatibility vs. proprietary SmartCraft not NMEA 2000 compatible - a company that is completely committed to advanced 2-stroke technology for outboard motors.
L H G	posted 07-22-2009 01:22 AM ET (US) I just don't get it, Peter. You are so lucky. E-tec owner and CW patrolman Fourdfish calls me a Mercury salesman all the time, but when you make your pitch, he never calls you an Evinrude salesman. Not a very Fair and Balanced approach, I guess.
Peter	posted 07-22-2009 07:33 AM ET (US) Larry -- The difference is I'm not selling, I'm just pointing out some comparative facts for consideration because, if you read Brian's initial post, Brian was looking for suggestions on American built two-cycle twins. Other people had already suggested E-TECs without even pointing out advantages. For some reason you haven't complained about them doing so. Why not? Perhaps the difference is that unlike you with respect to each and every Evinrude E-TEC discussion thread, I don't jump into each and every Mercury discussion thread to try to derail such by pitching Evinrudes (or Yamahas or Hondas or Suzukis or Tohatsus). When someone is asking for open ended suggestions like Brian is, I'm providing some information for consideration as you rightfully did here. Unlike you, it does not matter to me whether Brian chooses a Mercury or an Evinrude. I get no financial gain from that either way.
itl	posted 07-22-2009 08:43 AM ET (US) "If you want a truly All-American motor, get the E-TEC." Really, E-TEC is a developed from Evirude Ficht direct injection technology. The Ficht direct injection technology was originally developed by German engineer Wolfgang Heimberg. In mid 1990s OMC buy a license to use the technology and later on buy 51% interest in the technology :-) So E-Tec fans should thanks Germans and Opti fans should thanks Australians about the marvelous direct injection technology :-)
jimh	posted 07-22-2009 03:13 PM ET (US) BRP or OMC bought the intellectual property behind the FICHT injection, and the E-TEC is not the same as FICHT, it is a further invention. But BRP owns the technology and developed it in-house in Wisconsin. They even made their own injectors and developed their extraordinary system of coefficients to give precision to their control. Later BRP sold the manufacturing facility to an Orbital-VDO joint venture, who actually make the E-TEC injectors under contract for the exclusive use of BRP in the E-TEC. As for importing technical expertise from Germany, Mercury hired German auto engineer Claus Bruestle from Porsche to take charge of their four-cycle outboard motor development program which resulted in the VERADO. My comments were really in jest, as my [smiley face icon] indicated. There's no such things as an All-American motor these days. For example, most of them use a Japanese-made SHOWA trim tilt assembly.
Tohsgib	posted 07-22-2009 03:39 PM ET (US) I bet the starters say Hitachi on them as well...somewhere.
L H G	posted 07-22-2009 08:30 PM ET (US) ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...................