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BQUICK posted 09-14-2009 04:45 PM ET (US)
Was talking to a guy that says he has been putting a small amout (I think he said 1 oz/gallon) of Seafoam in his Yamaha OIL tank. Says it keep the pump clean, cleans carbon out of the motor and prevents sludge in the oil tank.
Anyone ever hear of this? I'm thinking about it since the last time I cleaned my oil tank out it had thinkened oil sludge on the bottom......
TransAm posted 09-14-2009 05:38 PM ET (US)
Seafoam has many uses, but I have never heard of using it mixed directly with 2-stroke oil. I do know a recommended use is to add it directly to crank case oil. Suppose to clean lifters, rings and other internal parts. I don't see any special advantage to adding it directly to 2-stroke oil if it is used as directed in the gas, other than if it does prevent sludge build-up. I have never had sludge build-up in my 2 stroke tanks though. I would think something foreign would need to enter the tank to create the sludge. I emptied my 2 oil tanks last year after 15 years of service and they were clean as a whistle. Probably won't hurt anything adding at that ratio.
jimh posted 09-14-2009 08:30 PM ET (US)
Your friend sounds like some other people I know who think they can brew up their own fuel and oil mixture by blending additives with gasoline and cheap oil.
Tell your friend to figure the total cost per gallon of his fuel, oil, and homebrew additive concoctions, then compare it with using a brand-name premium oil mixture which already has the additives blended into it.
number9 posted 09-14-2009 09:25 PM ET (US)
As said premium 2-stoke oils already have additives, some may be of a basically solvent base as Sea Foam. Have not seen them making a recommendation for that use and it would reduce the oils lubricating properties. Personally would do a lot of research prior to using myself.
Tom W Clark posted 09-14-2009 09:41 PM ET (US)
Adding a solvent to an outboard's two stroke oil sounds like a recipe for disaster. I recommend against it.
I am reminded of a conversation I had with my own outboard mechanic, Dale, some time last spring.
Washington State started requiring the use of ethanol in its gasoline less than a year ago. When my boat was in for servicing (and after its first tank of E10) I asked Dale if he had seen many problems with boat fuel systems.
He replied that no, he had not seen any problems that could be directly attributable to ethanol in the gasoline but he had seen some nasty fuel system problems caused (he felt) by too much additive added to the gas.
He talked about one customer in particular who had extensive problems. Dale found the guy had been adding several different fuel additives to his gasoline, for different reasons, thinking he was helping his boats fuel system with his home brew.
Dale told this customer bluntly, to STOP adding all that crap to his fuel. I like Dale; he cuts to the chase.
[Aside: I have since asked Dale about ethanol related problems. He told me he has started to see some deterioration of plastic/rubber components on some outboard motors that he feels is related to ethanol.]
jimh posted 09-17-2009 12:57 AM ET (US)
Assume gasoline is $4/gallon, no-brand oil is $10/gallon, one additive which treats 50-gallons of gasoline is $15, and the mixture ratio is 50:1. The cost of brewing up 50-gallons of fuel is
$200 (gasoline) + $10 (oil) + $15 (additive) = $225
Now assume we use a premium oil which is $25/gallon and no additives:
$200 (gasoline) + $25 (oil) = $225
Both methods cost the same. If we use more additives, the cost of home-brew fuel increases. If we have a modern engine which can run at 100:1 with special lubricants that cost $35/gallon, the cost of 50-gallons of fuel becomes
$200 (gasoline) + 17.50 (oil) = $217.50
Using the more expensive premium blended oil actually saves money.
predator 17 posted 09-17-2009 01:15 PM ET (US)
Bquick Sludge in the oil tank is sometimes caused by mixing different brands of 2 stroke oil. Try and use the same brand of oil when re-filling the tank. Should help stop the sludge. I have seen mercury oil tanks all blown up from the gellation caused by mixing differing oils. Clogged the filter and then no oil flows. Best advice is to use the engine mfg brand of oil...
BQUICK posted 09-18-2009 11:32 AM ET (US)
Probably a good idea to dump the oil out and clean the onboard oil tank say every 5 yrs anyway?
omc_tech posted 09-27-2009 02:19 PM ET (US)
The use of seafoam in injected 2 stroke applications is a sound idea. We do it to our own boats. It reduces any unwanted buildup on internals - on the cool side and it removes carbon build up on the piston domes. Use it as an end of season stabilizer as well.
meridian posted 09-27-2009 09:29 PM ET (US)
omc_tech,
Can you expand on that?
jimh posted 09-27-2009 10:44 PM ET (US)
omc_tech--You put the Sea Foam in the oil tank? Please make that clear. Your endorsement of Sea Foam seems ambiguous regarding where and how you use it.
Tohsgib posted 09-28-2009 11:59 AM ET (US)
Last I heard Seafoam was a gasoline additive, not an 2 stroke injection system additive. Put it in the gas tank, not oil.
footsie posted 09-28-2009 07:19 PM ET (US)
Actually the Seafoam web site says it is for both gas and oil:
SEA FOAM Motor Treatment is a 100% pure petroleum product that safely and effectively cleans internal fuel and oil system components, helping your gasoline or diesel engine run cleaner and more efficiently. SEA FOAM is an EPA-registered product, and will not harm engine components, seals, gaskets, catalytic converters or oxygen sensors.
SEA FOAM liquefies gum and varnish deposits or internal engine components, removing carbon deposits, freeing sticky valve lifters and rings curing rough idle, pinging and hesitation problems. By using SEA FOAM to eliminate varnish and carbon buildup, mechanics can more accurately diagnose mechanical problems that may exist. That is why Sea Foam has been so popular with professional mechanics for over 65 years.
As a fuel system additive, Sea Foam will clean fuel injectors, clean carbon, gum and varnish deposits, add lubricity to fuel, stabilize fuel for 2 years and control moisture.
As an oil system additive, Sea Foam controls moisture, gum, varnish and residue deposits.
TransAm posted 09-28-2009 07:35 PM ET (US)
The oil referred to for Seafoam use is crank case oil, not 2-stroke oil.
Plotman posted 09-28-2009 09:02 PM ET (US)
A little bit of sea foam in the oil isn't going to change the lubricity of the oil. And once that oil gets mixed with the fuel, it will do the same thing it would have had it been mixed in the gas.
Tom W Clark posted 09-28-2009 10:18 PM ET (US)
DFI outboards do not mix the oil and gasoline.
Call your outboard manufacturer's customer service and ask them if they recommend adding Seafoam to their two stroke oil. I'm putting money on only one outcome of that call.
gwcpa posted 09-28-2009 10:49 PM ET (US)
Is the Ops "guy" running a DFI outboard? If it not DFI, it gets "mixed" along the way to combustion, no?
I don't see the reasoning to add to the injection however. Why not just add Quickclean/Ringfree (depending on the manufacturer you call) to the fuel as recommended? It works.
number9 posted 09-28-2009 11:00 PM ET (US)
Very good point Plotman made. Many modern fuel injected 2-strokes pump the oil into the vapor separator for mixing with fuel similar to the older systems mixing at the fuel pump inlet. Understand some of the modern DFI also may also inject some oil in the crankcase/intake to lubricate the bearings which used to be lubricated by the fuel/oil mixture. It may keep the oil pump clean, clean carbon out of the motor combustion chamber (as adding to fuel), prevent sludge in the oil tank and with a DFI keep the lower end cleaner? Sea Foam may not recommend it's use in 2-stroke oils since the small quantities used would not generate much income and could be a liability issue if a consumer used too much.
Doubt in small quantities it would hurt any 2-stoke. Those that buy new motors will probably purchase the recommended blended oil that probably has similar additives.

gwcpa posted 09-28-2009 11:07 PM ET (US)
Oil pumped into the VST? Which motors do this? Not saying it is not done, but seems counter to low emission technology to mix the oil right back into the fuel, inject it and burn it.
number9 posted 09-29-2009 01:10 AM ET (US)
Mercury EFIs circa 2002 for sure. As long as the oil and fuel are injected in the intake it makes sense to mix at the fuel pump. Older technology and not as clean and efficient as DFI because the mixture was injected into the intake rather than the cylinder head.
Much of the oil injected into DFIs lower end gets sucked up with the air coming in through the reed valves, lubricates the bottom end before being sucked further and burned in the combustion chamber. Since the oil doesn't vaporize as easily as a fuel/oil mixture, the excess oil not vaporized drains and is recirculated and again injected on some systems familiar to me. If a motor doesn't have a oil recirculation system it would need to have a high pressure oil pump and use oil nozzles similar to DFI nozzles to completely vaporize the oil. If not enough oil would eventually collect resulting in some serious problems.
Do E-Tecs recirculate blow-by contaminated/diluted oil as other motors do?

BQUICK posted 09-29-2009 10:46 AM ET (US)
If you saw the sludge blobs in the bottom of my oil tank you would understand my interest in trying this. A side benefit could also be keeping the motor mounted tank clean and the oil pump and lines (especially those small ones) clear. Also, might help combust the oil that is injected as well as decarb some.....
I know it's unconventional but that doesn't mean it can't or won't work......
gwcpa posted 09-29-2009 11:31 AM ET (US)
Ahh, EFIs, that makes sense. I still had DFIs on my brain.
andygere posted 09-29-2009 11:44 AM ET (US)
I think a better solution to sludge in the oil tank is to manually clean the oil tank once a year, and use a high quality oil.
For DFI motors, especially those using synthetic oil, I don't see much advantage to using a product like Seafoam, especially in the oil. While my motor is still under warranty, I'm sticking to fuel additives recommended by the manufacturer.
jimh posted 09-29-2009 01:53 PM ET (US)
Please limit this discussion to the topic: Adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir.
If people would like to discuss other topics, such as how the E-TEC oil system operates, please start a new thread for that topic.
With regard to the topic of adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir, this seem to be a very unusual practice. Prior to this discussion, I cannot recall anyone suggesting that Sea Foam ought to be added to the oil reservoir. Sea Foam has been recommended as an additive to the gasoline, but never before this discussion as an additive for the oil.
So far I see several recommendations against adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir. There is one recommendation which is very ambiguous and could possibly be interpreted as recommending adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir, but, considering how ambiguous and unclear this recommendation is, and considering the person making the recommendation has not replied to two inquiries following up asking for clarification, my interpretation is that there really are no recommendations for adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir.
In that light, perhaps we can stop the discussion until someone comes along and clearly endorses the practice of adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir, provides some background information about his experience and qualifications, or otherwise gives what could be considered a reasonable endorsement of adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir. Until that happens, I would describe the practice of adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir to be controversial and not recommended.
15ft90hp posted 10-04-2009 09:15 PM ET (US)
Adding Seafoam to a oil injected two stroke, which injects the oil at a ratio lets say 50 to 1, depending on the motor brand specs, sounds like a bad ideal. It would seem that the ratio would be higher because the oil with Seafoam in it would be thined out, maybe 55 to 1.
Why not just add the Seafoam to the gas, it would do everything mentioned the same as adding it to the oil, except cleaning the oil tank and risking a higher oil to gas ratio mixture.

modenacart posted 10-05-2009 08:05 PM ET (US)
I have no idea why someone wouldn't follow the OEM's recommendations. They have way, way, way more information than the lay person including the local mechanic.
jimh posted 10-05-2009 08:16 PM ET (US)
Yes, I agree completely. Why someone would ignore the manufacturer's recommendations regarding what additives ought to be used, where they should be used, and in what proportions they should be used, and, instead, take the advice of someone identified as "a guy" is beyond me.
I am hoping that "the guy" will join the discussion and explain to us all the special benefits that will accrue to us when we follow his advice.
modenacart posted 10-05-2009 08:34 PM ET (US)
I see this same insane logic in the shops we support all the time. They choose not to perform quality checks that we recommend and they tend to end up with low times between repair. The shops that have chosen to listen to us have increase times since repair drastically and bearing failures have reduced significantly. There always seems to be "some guy" in the shops that don't listen and knows more, but time between repair data seems to prove "that guy" wrong.

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Author	Topic: Seafoam in oil tank
BQUICK	posted 09-14-2009 04:45 PM ET (US) Was talking to a guy that says he has been putting a small amout (I think he said 1 oz/gallon) of Seafoam in his Yamaha OIL tank. Says it keep the pump clean, cleans carbon out of the motor and prevents sludge in the oil tank. Anyone ever hear of this? I'm thinking about it since the last time I cleaned my oil tank out it had thinkened oil sludge on the bottom......
TransAm	posted 09-14-2009 05:38 PM ET (US) Seafoam has many uses, but I have never heard of using it mixed directly with 2-stroke oil. I do know a recommended use is to add it directly to crank case oil. Suppose to clean lifters, rings and other internal parts. I don't see any special advantage to adding it directly to 2-stroke oil if it is used as directed in the gas, other than if it does prevent sludge build-up. I have never had sludge build-up in my 2 stroke tanks though. I would think something foreign would need to enter the tank to create the sludge. I emptied my 2 oil tanks last year after 15 years of service and they were clean as a whistle. Probably won't hurt anything adding at that ratio.
jimh	posted 09-14-2009 08:30 PM ET (US) Your friend sounds like some other people I know who think they can brew up their own fuel and oil mixture by blending additives with gasoline and cheap oil. Tell your friend to figure the total cost per gallon of his fuel, oil, and homebrew additive concoctions, then compare it with using a brand-name premium oil mixture which already has the additives blended into it.
number9	posted 09-14-2009 09:25 PM ET (US) As said premium 2-stoke oils already have additives, some may be of a basically solvent base as Sea Foam. Have not seen them making a recommendation for that use and it would reduce the oils lubricating properties. Personally would do a lot of research prior to using myself.
Tom W Clark	posted 09-14-2009 09:41 PM ET (US) Adding a solvent to an outboard's two stroke oil sounds like a recipe for disaster. I recommend against it. I am reminded of a conversation I had with my own outboard mechanic, Dale, some time last spring. Washington State started requiring the use of ethanol in its gasoline less than a year ago. When my boat was in for servicing (and after its first tank of E10) I asked Dale if he had seen many problems with boat fuel systems. He replied that no, he had not seen any problems that could be directly attributable to ethanol in the gasoline but he had seen some nasty fuel system problems caused (he felt) by too much additive added to the gas. He talked about one customer in particular who had extensive problems. Dale found the guy had been adding several different fuel additives to his gasoline, for different reasons, thinking he was helping his boats fuel system with his home brew. Dale told this customer bluntly, to STOP adding all that crap to his fuel. I like Dale; he cuts to the chase. [Aside: I have since asked Dale about ethanol related problems. He told me he has started to see some deterioration of plastic/rubber components on some outboard motors that he feels is related to ethanol.]
jimh	posted 09-17-2009 12:57 AM ET (US) Assume gasoline is $4/gallon, no-brand oil is $10/gallon, one additive which treats 50-gallons of gasoline is $15, and the mixture ratio is 50:1. The cost of brewing up 50-gallons of fuel is $200 (gasoline) + $10 (oil) + $15 (additive) = $225 Now assume we use a premium oil which is $25/gallon and no additives: $200 (gasoline) + $25 (oil) = $225 Both methods cost the same. If we use more additives, the cost of home-brew fuel increases. If we have a modern engine which can run at 100:1 with special lubricants that cost $35/gallon, the cost of 50-gallons of fuel becomes $200 (gasoline) + 17.50 (oil) = $217.50 Using the more expensive premium blended oil actually saves money.
predator 17	posted 09-17-2009 01:15 PM ET (US) Bquick Sludge in the oil tank is sometimes caused by mixing different brands of 2 stroke oil. Try and use the same brand of oil when re-filling the tank. Should help stop the sludge. I have seen mercury oil tanks all blown up from the gellation caused by mixing differing oils. Clogged the filter and then no oil flows. Best advice is to use the engine mfg brand of oil...
BQUICK	posted 09-18-2009 11:32 AM ET (US) Probably a good idea to dump the oil out and clean the onboard oil tank say every 5 yrs anyway?
omc_tech	posted 09-27-2009 02:19 PM ET (US) The use of seafoam in injected 2 stroke applications is a sound idea. We do it to our own boats. It reduces any unwanted buildup on internals - on the cool side and it removes carbon build up on the piston domes. Use it as an end of season stabilizer as well.
meridian	posted 09-27-2009 09:29 PM ET (US) omc_tech, Can you expand on that?
jimh	posted 09-27-2009 10:44 PM ET (US) omc_tech--You put the Sea Foam in the oil tank? Please make that clear. Your endorsement of Sea Foam seems ambiguous regarding where and how you use it.
Tohsgib	posted 09-28-2009 11:59 AM ET (US) Last I heard Seafoam was a gasoline additive, not an 2 stroke injection system additive. Put it in the gas tank, not oil.
footsie	posted 09-28-2009 07:19 PM ET (US) Actually the Seafoam web site says it is for both gas and oil: SEA FOAM Motor Treatment is a 100% pure petroleum product that safely and effectively cleans internal fuel and oil system components, helping your gasoline or diesel engine run cleaner and more efficiently. SEA FOAM is an EPA-registered product, and will not harm engine components, seals, gaskets, catalytic converters or oxygen sensors. SEA FOAM liquefies gum and varnish deposits or internal engine components, removing carbon deposits, freeing sticky valve lifters and rings curing rough idle, pinging and hesitation problems. By using SEA FOAM to eliminate varnish and carbon buildup, mechanics can more accurately diagnose mechanical problems that may exist. That is why Sea Foam has been so popular with professional mechanics for over 65 years. As a fuel system additive, Sea Foam will clean fuel injectors, clean carbon, gum and varnish deposits, add lubricity to fuel, stabilize fuel for 2 years and control moisture. As an oil system additive, Sea Foam controls moisture, gum, varnish and residue deposits.
TransAm	posted 09-28-2009 07:35 PM ET (US) The oil referred to for Seafoam use is crank case oil, not 2-stroke oil.
Plotman	posted 09-28-2009 09:02 PM ET (US) A little bit of sea foam in the oil isn't going to change the lubricity of the oil. And once that oil gets mixed with the fuel, it will do the same thing it would have had it been mixed in the gas.
Tom W Clark	posted 09-28-2009 10:18 PM ET (US) DFI outboards do not mix the oil and gasoline. Call your outboard manufacturer's customer service and ask them if they recommend adding Seafoam to their two stroke oil. I'm putting money on only one outcome of that call.
gwcpa	posted 09-28-2009 10:49 PM ET (US) Is the Ops "guy" running a DFI outboard? If it not DFI, it gets "mixed" along the way to combustion, no? I don't see the reasoning to add to the injection however. Why not just add Quickclean/Ringfree (depending on the manufacturer you call) to the fuel as recommended? It works.
number9	posted 09-28-2009 11:00 PM ET (US) Very good point Plotman made. Many modern fuel injected 2-strokes pump the oil into the vapor separator for mixing with fuel similar to the older systems mixing at the fuel pump inlet. Understand some of the modern DFI also may also inject some oil in the crankcase/intake to lubricate the bearings which used to be lubricated by the fuel/oil mixture. It may keep the oil pump clean, clean carbon out of the motor combustion chamber (as adding to fuel), prevent sludge in the oil tank and with a DFI keep the lower end cleaner? Sea Foam may not recommend it's use in 2-stroke oils since the small quantities used would not generate much income and could be a liability issue if a consumer used too much. Doubt in small quantities it would hurt any 2-stoke. Those that buy new motors will probably purchase the recommended blended oil that probably has similar additives.
gwcpa	posted 09-28-2009 11:07 PM ET (US) Oil pumped into the VST? Which motors do this? Not saying it is not done, but seems counter to low emission technology to mix the oil right back into the fuel, inject it and burn it.
number9	posted 09-29-2009 01:10 AM ET (US) Mercury EFIs circa 2002 for sure. As long as the oil and fuel are injected in the intake it makes sense to mix at the fuel pump. Older technology and not as clean and efficient as DFI because the mixture was injected into the intake rather than the cylinder head. Much of the oil injected into DFIs lower end gets sucked up with the air coming in through the reed valves, lubricates the bottom end before being sucked further and burned in the combustion chamber. Since the oil doesn't vaporize as easily as a fuel/oil mixture, the excess oil not vaporized drains and is recirculated and again injected on some systems familiar to me. If a motor doesn't have a oil recirculation system it would need to have a high pressure oil pump and use oil nozzles similar to DFI nozzles to completely vaporize the oil. If not enough oil would eventually collect resulting in some serious problems. Do E-Tecs recirculate blow-by contaminated/diluted oil as other motors do?
BQUICK	posted 09-29-2009 10:46 AM ET (US) If you saw the sludge blobs in the bottom of my oil tank you would understand my interest in trying this. A side benefit could also be keeping the motor mounted tank clean and the oil pump and lines (especially those small ones) clear. Also, might help combust the oil that is injected as well as decarb some..... I know it's unconventional but that doesn't mean it can't or won't work......
gwcpa	posted 09-29-2009 11:31 AM ET (US) Ahh, EFIs, that makes sense. I still had DFIs on my brain.
andygere	posted 09-29-2009 11:44 AM ET (US) I think a better solution to sludge in the oil tank is to manually clean the oil tank once a year, and use a high quality oil. For DFI motors, especially those using synthetic oil, I don't see much advantage to using a product like Seafoam, especially in the oil. While my motor is still under warranty, I'm sticking to fuel additives recommended by the manufacturer.
jimh	posted 09-29-2009 01:53 PM ET (US) Please limit this discussion to the topic: Adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir. If people would like to discuss other topics, such as how the E-TEC oil system operates, please start a new thread for that topic. With regard to the topic of adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir, this seem to be a very unusual practice. Prior to this discussion, I cannot recall anyone suggesting that Sea Foam ought to be added to the oil reservoir. Sea Foam has been recommended as an additive to the gasoline, but never before this discussion as an additive for the oil. So far I see several recommendations against adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir. There is one recommendation which is very ambiguous and could possibly be interpreted as recommending adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir, but, considering how ambiguous and unclear this recommendation is, and considering the person making the recommendation has not replied to two inquiries following up asking for clarification, my interpretation is that there really are no recommendations for adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir. In that light, perhaps we can stop the discussion until someone comes along and clearly endorses the practice of adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir, provides some background information about his experience and qualifications, or otherwise gives what could be considered a reasonable endorsement of adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir. Until that happens, I would describe the practice of adding Sea Foam to the oil reservoir to be controversial and not recommended.
15ft90hp	posted 10-04-2009 09:15 PM ET (US) Adding Seafoam to a oil injected two stroke, which injects the oil at a ratio lets say 50 to 1, depending on the motor brand specs, sounds like a bad ideal. It would seem that the ratio would be higher because the oil with Seafoam in it would be thined out, maybe 55 to 1. Why not just add the Seafoam to the gas, it would do everything mentioned the same as adding it to the oil, except cleaning the oil tank and risking a higher oil to gas ratio mixture.
modenacart	posted 10-05-2009 08:05 PM ET (US) I have no idea why someone wouldn't follow the OEM's recommendations. They have way, way, way more information than the lay person including the local mechanic.
jimh	posted 10-05-2009 08:16 PM ET (US) Yes, I agree completely. Why someone would ignore the manufacturer's recommendations regarding what additives ought to be used, where they should be used, and in what proportions they should be used, and, instead, take the advice of someone identified as "a guy" is beyond me. I am hoping that "the guy" will join the discussion and explain to us all the special benefits that will accrue to us when we follow his advice.
modenacart	posted 10-05-2009 08:34 PM ET (US) I see this same insane logic in the shops we support all the time. They choose not to perform quality checks that we recommend and they tend to end up with low times between repair. The shops that have chosen to listen to us have increase times since repair drastically and bearing failures have reduced significantly. There always seems to be "some guy" in the shops that don't listen and knows more, but time between repair data seems to prove "that guy" wrong.